The best Ninja in Mirage... - Page 2

**Karpo_007** · 12-15-2002, 01:31 PM

I downloaded one episode, Not very good, but kids might enjoy it.

*heretic888* · 12-15-2002, 02:10 PM

on a side note, the only people on that list that have actually demonstrated they are 'ninja' are Michelangelo and Splinter.

Splinter and Oroku Saki are probably the most skillful warriors, however.

**Nturtle** · 12-15-2002, 06:21 PM

What do you mean? The rest are all Ninjas too...

**Kali** · 12-15-2002, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparvid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali

But people have speculated.

Please don't say that there are Karai/Shredder fanfics out there...

*keeps her mouth shut*

*suddenly realizes she still needs to vote on this* Splinter!

**Nturtle** · 12-15-2002, 08:20 PM

thats kind of disturbing...

*heretic888* · 12-15-2002, 10:34 PM

Quote:

What do you mean? The rest are all Ninjas too...

Not quite. To quote a modern-day Buddha:

"Ninpo began as training to become a moral people
and to learn to endure in whatever social
condition one is in; to know and accept one's
fate, and to live for human beings and all other
creatures. The person who masters all of these
is a ninja."

By Masaaki Hatsumi
[Ninpo: Wisdom for Life, Page 50]

From my observations, only Michelangelo and Splinter have acquired these traits. The others are not ninja. They are practitioners of ninjutsu, but not ninja.

**Karpo_007** · 12-16-2002, 12:28 AM

Still it's just your observation. Neither Eastman or Laird have never said that Michelangelo would be the Only Ninja of the Four. You have to understand, that is Fiction. And in Mirage comic they caall themself as Ninjas.

Maybe by the standards of Real world they wouldn't be Ninjas, But In that Comic book they are, That is the point. Hence the Name: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

*heretic888* · 12-16-2002, 12:38 AM

no offense karpo, but when 'ninja' is used in the context of the comic it is a very generic label. fiction or not, within the confines of the story, only Mike is what you would call a 'true ninja'.

**Karpo_007** · 12-16-2002, 12:42 AM

Still that is just your opinnion. Splinter Calls them Ninja, They them self call eachother Ninja, and the fact is that Never in anywhere has such thing been said that the other TMNT wouldn't be Ninja. That is your obervation and your opinnion.

"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Obi-Wan Kenobi

*heretic888* · 12-16-2002, 12:49 AM

Splinter in fact never calls them 'ninja', he calls them students of ninjitsu. But, they are 'ninja' in the generic sense as a practitioner of ninjutsu.. but not in the sense as embodying a 'true ninja'. If anyone that started doing ninjutsu was a ninja, then I would be defined as such. I am not.

By the way, remember that this is the 'opinion' of someone that actually knows a thing or two about ninja training..... and not someone who has just read a few comics.

**Karpo_007** · 12-16-2002, 12:57 AM

It doesn't matter How much you have studiet or what, it's still an Opinion. The TMNT is fiction, in it all of the TMNT can be true ninja.

If we start to go by the rules of real world, They are not even Turtles. There is no Turtle species in World that would have bones like that.

But the Name is "Tennage Mutant Ninja Turtles".

And I am sure, that in No later issue of Mirage that I haven' read yet, Somebody would say that TMNT are not true Ninja. If that is not writen by Any mirage writer ( Eastman, Laird, Lawson,) The it's just your opinnion, and it doesnt matter how many more comics you have read.

*heretic888* · 12-16-2002, 01:15 AM

I agree with you many times, my friend, but on this one you are wrong.

If a writer declares Leonardo to be a black man, this does not make it so. Why? Because the laws of logic that govern our world still exist in their fictional world as well. There is no such thing as a round square, a five foot tall turtle cant be a black man, and most of the characters on there are not 'true ninja' because they do not possess seishin (within the constraints of their fiction, that is).

Just as a random writer or character might characterize Saki as 'evil' does not make it so either, in that 'evil' per se does not exist. Shredder may be visciously self-absorbed and gross in the use of force, but he is not 'evil'.

And, as I said before, the word ninja used in the story is largely the generic one. I am referring to a true ninja, not a generic ninja.

**Karpo_007** · 12-16-2002, 01:22 AM

Ok, you may have a point there. Now that I think of it, Splinter has a Much more higher skill than any of the TMNT. So maybe The TMNT can't be called True Ninja in the same way than Splinter.

*heretic888* · 12-16-2002, 01:28 AM

well, it doesnt have so much to do with skill in ninjutsu as it does with possessing seishin (purity of heart). of course, one can only attain the ninja seishin THROUGH skill acquired in ninjutsu training.... but there is still more to it than that. Shredder is probably even more skilled than Michelangelo, but he doesnt possess seishin and Mike seems to (or a level close to it).

**Karpo_007** · 12-16-2002, 01:33 AM

On what do you base your opinnion about Mike being anymore close to seishin than Leo?

*heretic888* · 12-16-2002, 01:35 AM

leonardo seems to be more driven by rules and codes of behavior as opposed to 'mushin' (no mind), he doesnt seem to have a wide a circle of concern for others outside his immediate 'family', he doesnt seem to have as a relaxed calm nature, he doesnt seem to be spontaneously intuitive or creative in thought, he doesnt seem to be able to 'enjoy the flowers' as Hatsumi-soke once put it..... you know, just general attributes.... I actually think Don is closer to seishin than Leo, but Leo is more skilled at taijutsu.

**Karpo_007** · 12-16-2002, 01:43 AM

Well If you put it that way it seem Mike is more pure at heart...

*heretic888* · 12-16-2002, 01:47 AM

The listeral translation of seishin is 'purity of heart' or 'purity of spirit', but that can be a little misleading...... its basically the same as the Buddhist concept of 'formlessness' or 'emptiness'.

View Poll Results: In a battle royal, who would win?
Splinter	8	47.06%
Shredder	2	11.76%
Karai	0	0%
Leonardo	4	23.53%
Raphael	1	5.88%
Michelangelo	2	11.76%
Donatello	0	0%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

12-15-2002, 02:10 PM	#22
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmm on a side note, the only people on that list that have actually demonstrated they are 'ninja' are Michelangelo and Splinter. Splinter and Oroku Saki are probably the most skillful warriors, however. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

12-15-2002, 06:21 PM	#23
Nturtle Ninja Master Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Technodrome Airducts Posts: 5,215	What do you mean? The rest are all Ninjas too... __________________ Fil rules. If Fil takes your 5 bucks then you should be eternally grateful that Fil would even borrow your money. Fil.

12-15-2002, 08:20 PM	#25
Nturtle Ninja Master Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Technodrome Airducts Posts: 5,215	thats kind of disturbing... __________________ Fil rules. If Fil takes your 5 bucks then you should be eternally grateful that Fil would even borrow your money. Fil.

12-16-2002, 12:38 AM	#28
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	ahem no offense karpo, but when 'ninja' is used in the context of the comic it is a very generic label. fiction or not, within the confines of the story, only Mike is what you would call a 'true ninja'. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

12-15-2002, 01:31 PM	#21
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	I downloaded one episode, Not very good, but kids might enjoy it.

12-16-2002, 12:28 AM	#27
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Still it's just your observation. Neither Eastman or Laird have never said that Michelangelo would be the Only Ninja of the Four. You have to understand, that is Fiction. And in Mirage comic they caall themself as Ninjas. Maybe by the standards of Real world they wouldn't be Ninjas, But In that Comic book they are, That is the point. Hence the Name: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

12-16-2002, 12:42 AM	#29
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Still that is just your opinnion. Splinter Calls them Ninja, They them self call eachother Ninja, and the fact is that Never in anywhere has such thing been said that the other TMNT wouldn't be Ninja. That is your obervation and your opinnion. "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." Obi-Wan Kenobi

12-16-2002, 12:49 AM	#30
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	ahem Splinter in fact never calls them 'ninja', he calls them students of ninjitsu. But, they are 'ninja' in the generic sense as a practitioner of ninjutsu.. but not in the sense as embodying a 'true ninja'. If anyone that started doing ninjutsu was a ninja, then I would be defined as such. I am not. By the way, remember that this is the 'opinion' of someone that actually knows a thing or two about ninja training..... and not someone who has just read a few comics. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

12-16-2002, 12:57 AM	#31
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	It doesn't matter How much you have studiet or what, it's still an Opinion. The TMNT is fiction, in it all of the TMNT can be true ninja. If we start to go by the rules of real world, They are not even Turtles. There is no Turtle species in World that would have bones like that. But the Name is "Tennage Mutant Ninja Turtles". And I am sure, that in No later issue of Mirage that I haven' read yet, Somebody would say that TMNT are not true Ninja. If that is not writen by Any mirage writer ( Eastman, Laird, Lawson,) The it's just your opinnion, and it doesnt matter how many more comics you have read.

12-16-2002, 01:15 AM	#32
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	ahem I agree with you many times, my friend, but on this one you are wrong. If a writer declares Leonardo to be a black man, this does not make it so. Why? Because the laws of logic that govern our world still exist in their fictional world as well. There is no such thing as a round square, a five foot tall turtle cant be a black man, and most of the characters on there are not 'true ninja' because they do not possess seishin (within the constraints of their fiction, that is). Just as a random writer or character might characterize Saki as 'evil' does not make it so either, in that 'evil' per se does not exist. Shredder may be visciously self-absorbed and gross in the use of force, but he is not 'evil'. And, as I said before, the word ninja used in the story is largely the generic one. I am referring to a true ninja, not a generic ninja. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

12-16-2002, 01:22 AM	#33
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Ok, you may have a point there. Now that I think of it, Splinter has a Much more higher skill than any of the TMNT. So maybe The TMNT can't be called True Ninja in the same way than Splinter.

12-16-2002, 01:28 AM	#34
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmm well, it doesnt have so much to do with skill in ninjutsu as it does with possessing seishin (purity of heart). of course, one can only attain the ninja seishin THROUGH skill acquired in ninjutsu training.... but there is still more to it than that. Shredder is probably even more skilled than Michelangelo, but he doesnt possess seishin and Mike seems to (or a level close to it). __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

12-16-2002, 01:33 AM	#35
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	On what do you base your opinnion about Mike being anymore close to seishin than Leo?

12-16-2002, 01:35 AM	#36
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmm leonardo seems to be more driven by rules and codes of behavior as opposed to 'mushin' (no mind), he doesnt seem to have a wide a circle of concern for others outside his immediate 'family', he doesnt seem to have as a relaxed calm nature, he doesnt seem to be spontaneously intuitive or creative in thought, he doesnt seem to be able to 'enjoy the flowers' as Hatsumi-soke once put it..... you know, just general attributes.... I actually think Don is closer to seishin than Leo, but Leo is more skilled at taijutsu. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

12-16-2002, 01:43 AM	#37
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Well If you put it that way it seem Mike is more pure at heart...

12-16-2002, 01:47 AM	#38
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmm The listeral translation of seishin is 'purity of heart' or 'purity of spirit', but that can be a little misleading...... its basically the same as the Buddhist concept of 'formlessness' or 'emptiness'. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)