What's your order

[heretic888]

When I am simply calling them out by name, its: Leo, Raph, Don, Mike (I guess that's because how it was done in TMNT: Tournament Fighters for the SNES and it stuck with me).

If we are referring to those 'ninja skillz' HT was talking about, it is: 1) Mike, 2) Leo, 3) Raph, 4) Don. That, is if you are referring to physical ability with taijutsu. Again, these are not my preferences, they are the creators'.

If we are referring to 'personality development' or some such, it is: 1) Mike (green/yellow memes, postconventional/post-postconventional), 2) Don (orange/green memes, postconventional), 3) Leo (blue/orange memes, conventional/postconventional), and 4) Raph (red/blue memes, preconventional/conventional).

If we are talking about 'spirit of the Ninja' kind of thing, it would be: 1) Mike, 2) and 3) Don/Leo (I'm not sure who would be where), and 4) Raph.

I guess it all depends on what we're judging.....

[Karpo_007]

Soon I have read the whole City at War to, and nothing I repeat NOTHING has supported the claim that Michelangelo would be the best fighter. Now, I don't know about the "spiritual" side, you could be right about that.

[heretic888]

Well, nothing set aside the profiles Eastman and Laird wrote for the RPG.

[Karpo_007]

RPG is not part of the Canon, comics are. Get me a word from either Eastman or Laird that it should be considered Canon, and that Mike has the best fighting skills. Before that only comics count as canon.

[heretic888]

Canon?? You're talking like it's a frikkin' Bible......

Besides, you just have to use logic about Mike being the best fighter. Mike beat Raph (twice). Raph beat Leo. Mike is best by default. hahaha

About the RPG, let's do a comparison.....

RPG (of which Laird and Eastman worked closely with, even contributing artwork): "Michaelangelo also likes rough and tumble stuff and gets into a good fight almost as much as Raphael. He enjoys sparring, and he and Raphael do a lot of this. He doesn't work as hard at the art of ninjutsu as any of the others (except perhaps Donatello), but his naturally high physical prowess more than makes up for his lack of discipline."

The new animated series' (of which Laird worked very closely with) profiles also state Mike has the highest agility and natural ability of the four of them.

Also, oddly, under Raph's profile they say: "As a fighter, Raphael is neither the most skillful (Leonardo is better) or the most talented (Michaelangelo is phenomenal), but he is the most deadly Ninja Turtles because of his raw energy."

I think things like 'best fighter' are a bit precarious, given things like the situational circumstances.....

[Karpo_007]

Canon is something that is in every fictional form of art. This includes movies and comics. Yes Mikey trains, but so do the rest of them. Greates agility does not always mean best fighter, even if your Ninja books say so. I have one of the RPG books, it credits Eastman and Laird only as art contributors, it has diffrent writers. But even if they did write it, it is not part of Canon until you can prove it.

I know many Start wars RPG books wich Lucas has been working with. Still he says that only Movies can be considered Canon, not books, comics or RPG books. IF you say the TMNT RPG books are any diffrent, poove it.

As for what best fighter means, I think only way to be sure would be have the TMNT really fight each other. I can't picture anyone but Leo wining it.

[heretic888]

Greates agility does not always mean best fighter, even if your Ninja books say so.

And you impart this wisdom to me with your great knowledge of hand to hand combat, huh???

As for what best fighter means, I think only way to be sure would be have the TMNT really fight each other. I can't picture anyone but Leo wining it.

Just because you can't picture doesnt make it true. I sincerely doubt it will ever be conclusively decided 'who is the best fighter'.... but Leo couldn't beat Raph, and Mike could. Draw your own conclusions.

[Karpo_007]

Heh, didn't even try to counter by points about the RPG books. Yes, Im pretty sure Eastman and Laird weren't as enlightened as you in ninjutsu, so again, only what happens in the comics counts. You really think that Leo didn't hold back? It is pretty clear that he did. Conclusions based on that are far from accurate.

[Kali]

I'd like to point out that "canon" does not just refer to the Mirage comics in this case. Canon is stats and information that come from an official source, and that would include the RPG books. While the Mirage comics are the original TMNT universe, they certainly aren't the only valid canon universe. Anti-non-Mirage comments are not appreciated.

You really think that Leo didn't hold back? It is pretty clear that he did.

How clear? That sounds a lot like fanon to me. Something fans seem to take as true without it actually being pointed out as fact. Doesn't mean it isn't true, but it's still an assumption.

[Karpo_007]

Very clear. Leo really didn't want to hurt Raph, just stop him or slow him down. Read my comment about Lucas and Star Wars RPG books. If you are saying it's difrent prove it.

Now, no one can be right on this matter, Im not sure even Eastman or Laird knows who is the best fighter... But I just want to make it clear that nothing suggest Mikey is the most talened one.

[The Defibrillator]

My order in favorites goes like this

Mikey
Don
Raph
Leo

[heretic888]

Heh, didn't even try to counter by points about the RPG books.

I'll get back to you on that (I am in the process of finding out more as we speak.. err, type! ).

Just one thing, though: Mike is described as the 'most agile' and 'most talented' in both the Palladium RPG and the new animated series' profiles... both projects which are closely tied to the Mirage series. It just makes you think.... also, in a recent issue of Volume 4 of the Mirage series, Mike was also shown working on an 'agility machine' (it makes sense when you put it in context with what the others were doing). Just sayin', is all.

Yes, Im pretty sure Eastman and Laird weren't as enlightened as you in ninjutsu

How would you know?? Do you know how much research they did for the original series??? No you don't. I can tell you right now that many of the tmnt's fighting movements in the original series look remarkably similar to the ninpo taijutsu shown in Hayes' and Hatsumi's publications.

so again, only what happens in the comics counts.

And why is that?? I fail to see any noticeable differences between the characters in the comics and the characters in the Palladium RPG.

You really think that Leo didn't hold back? It is pretty clear that he did. Conclusions based on that are far from accurate.

Conclusions also based on 'I think Leo would win just cuz I see it in my mind' are also far from accurate.

How clear? That sounds a lot like fanon to me. Something fans seem to take as true without it actually being pointed out as fact. Doesn't mean it isn't true, but it's still an assumption.

Actually, I'd have to agree that Leo was probably holding back against Raph. Then again, he had a bokken and Raph was unarmed.... so I don't know if it's really a fair way to gauge either of their abilities.

I'd like to point out that "canon" does not just refer to the Mirage comics in this case. Canon is stats and information that come from an official source, and that would include the RPG books.

Ditto. The profiles in the RPG are almost paper to paper translations of the characters in the comics. Not like the first movie or new animated series, which although heavily Mirage-based, are still noticeably different.

While the Mirage comics are the original TMNT universe, they certainly aren't the only valid canon universe. Anti-non-Mirage comments are not appreciated.

Ditto again.

Read my comment about Lucas and Star Wars RPG books. If you are saying it's difrent prove it.

The difference is that the Palladium RPG didn't alter or mold the characters in any way. Nor did they 'add to' the already established story in any way (which at the time was the first four issues of volume 1 and the Raphael one-shot). The characters are virtually identical to the ones in the comic (at the time anyway). In addition, Eastman and Laird were heavily involved in the first RPG book (as it was the only other form of licensing the TMNT had at the time) and did ALL the artwork for the book. Lucas was nowhere near as involved with the Star Wars RPG.

I might also like to add that the RPG's description of the Ultroms (which were only first mentioned by name around issue 6 or so) gives credence that Eastman and Laird gave quite a few ideas to the Palladium peeps.

Im not sure even Eastman or Laird knows who is the best fighter...

I think they have an idea, but probably won't publicly admit to anyone. Besides, the notion of 'best fighter' is bit too nondescript, if you know what I mean.... any combat situation has many, many variables that could give almost any one of them an edge depending on the situation. This is manifested in the RPGs with the roll of the dice: luck.

But I just want to make it clear that nothing suggest Mikey is the most talened one.

You mean, besides the fact that he is described that way in BOTH the Palladium rpg AND the new animated series?? Besides, nothing suggests Leo is any better than any of them either.... with the possible exception of Raphael.

In fact, ALL WE KNOW from the comics ALONE is that Mike has beaten Raph in sparring on a few occassions and Leo was bested Raph once or twice while Raph bested Leo once. That doesn't really tell us much.

[Karpo_007]

First of all, Mikey is clearly not the most talented one in the new series, I have yet to read a profile that would say otherwise either.

And why woul Leo win? Of course I can picture him winning because in to Mirage COMICS, Leo is presented as most skilled one. You want examples, I can go trough my books and find a few.

The difference is that the Palladium RPG didn't alter or mold the characters in any way.

In the comics it Mikey is never said to be, or presented as the mos skilled one. So if the RPG book claims otherwise, then it alters the comic profile. Im beginin to think you don't think objectively on this, as Mike is your favorite turtle. Mine is Raph, and Still after finishing Volume 1[Yes I did it yesterday!] Never has Mikey been any more skilled than Leo for example.

And after watching the first 11 episodes of new show, Im prety sure everyone knows who is the most skilled there, and it isn't Mike. Show me the profile wich claims otherwise?

Now we are back to the RPG book, and maybe if it really was done in 1986 they tought so then, but during Return to New York and City at War It's Leo who always seems to be the best fighter.

[heretic888]

First of all, Mikey is clearly not the most talented one in the new series, I have yet to read a profile that would say otherwise either.

Before the current site was available, they had them on foxbox.tv under the tmnt section. It included brief profiles for each character and an episode synopsis for 'Things Change'. The profile for Mikey said he was a 'natural athlete' and the 'most talented and agile' of the four of them (which was supposed to counterbalance him not training as hard as some of the others, a point also noted in the Palladium RPG). Or something along those lines. I don't know why they got rid of the profiles, they should put them back up.....

And why woul Leo win? Of course I can picture him winning because in to Mirage COMICS, Leo is presented as most skilled one. You want examples, I can go trough my books and find a few.

That's complete bunk. There is no more 'proof' that Leo is the most skilled than there is Mike is the most talented. Selectively choosing and 'remembering' certain scenes doesn't help your case, either. I could pick out battles that made Mike seem the most 'skilled' too, you know.

In the comics it Mikey is never said to be, or presented as the mos skilled one.

He is never presented as NOT being the most skilled, either. Besides, the RPG ambiguously describes Leo as 'the most skilled' (at least, more skilled than Raph anyways) and Mike as 'the most talented'. They don't ever really say Mike is the most 'skilled'.

Im beginin to think you don't think objectively on this, as Mike is your favorite turtle. Mine is Raph, and Still after finishing Volume 1[Yes I did it yesterday!]

Not really, friend. Until I read the Palladium RPG (which is obviously an almost direct translation of Mirage to those who have ever bothered to read it), I thought Leo was the 'best fighter'. Now, I don't really think there is a 'best fighter', just that Mike and Leo are better are some things than each other.

Never has Mikey been any more skilled than Leo for example.

Never has Leo been any more skilled than Mikey, either.

And after watching the first 11 episodes of new show, Im prety sure everyone knows who is the most skilled there, and it isn't Mike. Show me the profile wich claims otherwise?

No one is really the most 'skilled' on that new show. It depends on what 'lesson' the writer is trying to have the turtles learn.

Now we are back to the RPG book, and maybe if it really was done in 1986 they tought so then, but during Return to New York and City at War It's Leo who always seems to be the best fighter.

Seems to you, maybe. Like I said before, selectively choosing and 'remembering' favored scenes does not help your case. Every circumstance is completely unique.

[Karpo_007]

LOl... I have read them in last months, when did you ast read them? You just counter my points sayin "You remember it the way you want" one word to you: LOL. As I said, I can find examples for you, now scanner I don't have, but anyone who owns the books can verify.

And the profiles you mentioned I have read. It said the natrual athlete, but nothing about talent. I think I have JPG's of those, since they were the first pictres of the new TMNT that were released to the public.

So what is the diffrence between skilled and Talented? In comics Leo always handles the figts best, gets hurt the least etc. altough Raph does in some ocasions beat more enemies than him, It still seems that Leo does handle things better.

SO what is it now we are dabeting about? Wich is better Fighter/ most skilled/talented? You can never be any more right on this than I. Like you said every situation is unique, and one can say who is the most skilled etc. It depends on situation. The only reason for this debate was the one we had long time ago, when You said Mike is the bes fighter, and I couln't really prove otherwise since I haven't read that much. Now I have, and I know that Mike is not any superior compared to others, but I can't really say Leo is either.

So there won't ever be a right answer tothis question, everyone can have their own interpretation.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

I've always considered the Turtles to be equal. That's what I think they're getting at by giving each turtle a different talent.

Leonardo = Most disiplined and well trained.
Raphael = Most Ferce and "battle ready"
Michelangelo = Most athletic
Donatello = Smartest

I think the point is that all the TMNT are equal in battle due to their equal but different talents.

BTW if sparring matches count and canon exists outside the comics then does the sparring match in "Shredder Strikes part 1" count for anything?

[Karpo_007]

Wel it shows that Leo is the most skilled in the new show. Well Your order is pretty much how I see it.

[MzTheInsomniac]

kapo and heretic take this crap way to seriously

[Karpo_007]

Maybe..

[heretic888]

you say that like its a BAD thing...