batman vs. superman

[Leo656]

What book did that happen in?

These sort of debates are pretty pointless to begin with, since A) The question "who would win?" inevitably gets twisted into "Who do you like more?" almost every single time, and more importantly B) Who would "win" depends entirely on whose book they were "fighting" in. Of course in any Batman book Batman would emerge victorious, and in any Superman book Superman would come out looking stronger.

I mean there IS the evidence in an issue of Superman from 1998 or so where he took out the entire Justice League by himself that Batman, Kryptonite or no, wouldn't be much trouble. I don't think the Kryptonite would even be much of an issue since Superman already knows he has it and would prepare accordingly, possibly some sort of lead-shielding or armor or something. Take into account Batman's occasional penchant for irrational behavior (like punching Superman bare-knuckled in the "Batman: Death in the Family" TPB... way to go, genius) and I honestly think Superman would win any "fight" with a minimum of effort.

I love both characters but I seriously don't see any logical way Batman could win. Even in "Dark Knight Returns", which most Batman supporters point to as evidence of Batman's supposed superiority, he was fighting a weakened version of Superman.

Plus I think "Dark Knight Strikes Again" conclusively proved that Frank whatsisname is completely insane anyway.

[cqb101]

Originally Posted by Brodie

Batman stabbed Supes in the spine with a piece o' kryptonite.

Cool!

[Raven]

actully for almost every time batman and superman have fought batman has won the battle (well from the ones that I have been able to see)
like the I think batman 614? of hush batman fought superman and won!( well kinda)
I wont tell you how well because I dont want to take the time to

[Leo656]

I still discount that one because A) Superman was being controlled by Poison Ivy and B) Agin, it happened in Batman's book so of course Batman would win.

I hold the dispute of any Batman/Superman conflict in question under any of the following circumstances:

The fight takes place in an "Elseworlds" book

One of the participants is under someone else's control (therefore not as able to perform up to full potential)

The fight takes place in some possible "alternate future" (like the "Armageddon 2001" tie-in Adventures of Superman Annual)

Frank Miller (who?) wrote it

EDIT: Y'know, if they ever actually did prepare a book, a one-shot of some sort, where Superman and Batman did have a conclusive battle, I would think Dan Jurgens should write it. Though he did have an 8-year run as a Superman writer, he's notoriously unbiased towards the character, often preferring to show weakness in the character rather than the unbeatable juggernaut we usually see him potrayed as. Not only did he write the story in which he died, he also wrote a story where Superman lost to the Flash in a footrace and yet another where he was nearly beaten to death by Lobo and actually had to trick Lobo into believing he'd been killed so he would leave. So Jurgens wouldn't necessarily put a biased spin on the story (unlike someone like Miller who's been publicly stated as hating the Superman character).

[Brodie]

The issue where Batty stabbed Supes with the kryptonite was actually in a Superman comic, so that kinda throws a curveball into Leo's idea.

[Leo656]

Any chance you'd have the issue number on-hand? I've got every Superman, Adventures of Superman, Action Comics and Man of Steel issue (not counting all the Annuals) since the 1986 revamp and I'm trying to figure out how I could've missed that.

[Brodie]

I can't remember the artist's name, thinking McEnnis or something, maybe not, itlooked a lot like this:



I had the sheet on my wall like a poster where Supes had his mouth wide open like he was in a ******** of pain, etc. They even had an article about it in Wizard.

[Leo656]

That picture is a variation of the cover for Superman #176 (on the actual cover the S-shield on his cape is black and not yellow)... and Batman never appears in that issue. The artist for that cover/pic is Ed McGuinness (you were close).

I'll have to look through the issues he did but I still don't recall that Batman/Superman scene you described, but I'd like to see it.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Brodie

I can't remember the artist's name, thinking McEnnis or something, maybe not, itlooked a lot like this:



I had the sheet on my wall like a poster where Supes had his mouth wide open like he was in a sh**load of pain, etc. They even had an article about it in Wizard.

now im not really into superman but im guessing thats a newer one and thats why many of us dont remember bats stabbing the supes(im saying new basied off of the color and style)

[Voltron]

Batman is undefeatable. He fought Captain America, and won that, too. I mean, seriously, Batman is a ninja and last time I checked, they can't be beaten.

[Knuckles]

I have had this debate countless times, and my answer always remains the same. Batman has beaten Superman, and is the only DC superhero who could and would dare to stand against him if he had to. Batman's the best of the superheroes simply because he has no superpowers. Not sure, but I think I've posted it here once, but in some issue of Superman in the late 90's, he and Lois were going to a costume party, and she picked out Batman & Robin costumes for it. The conversation went something like this:

CLARK: You've got to be joking. He'll kill me if he sees me wearing this.
LOIS: Don't be silly. He can't kill you--you're Superman.
CLARK: Oh, he can kill me Lois. If anybody can, he can. And the man has absolutely NO sense of humor.

I rest my case...for now.

[Leo656]

I have that issue (along with every other issue of Superman since 1986), and that gave me quite a hearty chuckle.

And I stand by the rationale that the only way Batman could in fact beat Superman in any physical confrontation would be through the use of Kryptonite, which Superman knows he has, and therefore would be well-prepared for. If Superman knew a confrontation was coming (and he'd have to... if the two of them were to fight there'd have to be a pretty big reason for it), he'd probably not even get close enough for the Kryptonite to take effect (and it *does* have a range). His sight and hearing senses could prepare him for any kind of sneak attack (and again, if he knew he was fighting Batman, he'd also know to watch his back). Point blank, there are too many weapons at his disposal and nothing Batman could do short of blocking out the sun indefinitely could be effective. A guy who can fly through the heart of the sun shouldn't and probably wouldn't lose *any* fight to a human being with a Kryptonite ring. If that's all it took Superman'd be dead 20 times over by now after fighting guys like Conduit who had Kryptonite literally in his veins.

I can't dispute people liking Batman more, that's personal preference and I can't in any way argue that people should like one character more than another. But realistically, logically, just by definition, there is no result to question because there simply is no fight. People can debate it forever but it will never, ever matter because, again, there will never be an actual, conclusive battle between the two characters, and whenever they do scuffle, mitigating circumstances like Poison Ivy taint the outcome. It's like debating whether Darth Maul could beat Darth Vader in a fight. Fun to debate, but in the end you're just debating apples and oranges, and the "winner" is simply which you prefer, nothing more.

[Knuckles]

Vader beats Maul, hands down...
Anyway, they fought in Dark Knight Returns, and Batman won.

[Pepzi]

I hate Superman, wish he'd die oh wait he did... So GO BATMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He was such a legend!

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Knuckles

Vader beats Maul, hands down...
Anyway, they fought in Dark Knight Returns, and Batman won.

And Dark Knight Returns was an Elseworlds story, therefore doesn't count as per my requirements stated above. It wasn't originally classified as one, since Elseworlds didn't exist back then, but newer copies of DKR do, in fact, bear the Elseworlds logo on them. Besides, the Batman universe "Frank Who?" created bears little resemblance at all to actual DC comics continuity, since Barry Allen is dead, Superman isn't some nigh-dictator imposing his rulership over humankind with Wonder Woman by his side... and that whole "Robin was the villain in DK2" thing...

Ok, I'm sorry, "Dark Knight Returns" was good, but "Dark Knight Strikes Again" was SO bad, it in my eyes goes so far as to undermine the purity of the original. Frank Miller is a talentless hack. Yeah, I said it. Self-serving, egocentric... ARGGH! I PAID MONEY FOR ALL 3 ISSUES OF DK2, AND WHAT DO I GET? F*** YOU, MILLER!

Anyways, yeah.... Elseworlds stories don't count because things that couldn't normally happen end up happening. And because some of the writers are either incompetent (Miller) or insane (Miller again).

Yes, I'm biased, but so help me, every page I read of DK2 I had to resist the urge to vomit. It was JUST THAT BAD.

[Brodie]

Wayne beat Supes in that Batman Beyond cartoon too....

[Knuckles]

Frank Miller almost single-handedly reinvented the Batman character into what it originally was supposed to be. As a comic writer, he's had very few failures, (DK2 was not that bad--not as good as DKR, but still fine). And he's basically one of the most respected in the comic industry. As an artist, his stuff works for what it is, though it's not my style. The point is, Frank Miller is good, as many would agree, and he's not overrated. Also, Elseworlds existed as of '96, when the DKR 10th Anniversary trade paperback was released, which I have, and I don't see any Elseworlds logo on it. Besides, that was always seen as a possible future, whether the current continuity leads to it or not remains to be seen, but it always could.

[Leo656]

Yes, Frank Miller did a lot to reinvent the character in the 80s, and definitely for the better. I'm glad for that.

He also did DK2, and that was the worst comic I read last year. 15 years of anticipation, 6 months of hype before its release, and for what? The story was an incomprehensible mess. The art didn't bother me, for whatever reason, though it wasn't as good as DKR. It sickens me that, given the opportunity to do something good, AND given a million dollars to do so, all Miller gave us was DK2. Would you pay Frank Miller a million dollars to, essentially, masturbate onto the page and call it a brilliant work of art? Because, symbolically, that's what DK2 was. Saying it "wasn't as good as the original" is like saying dog food just isn't as good as filet mignon... an understatement, to say the least.

I know I've seen copies of DKR with an Elseworlds tag but since I can't exactly prove it I'll retract that, since it doesn't change the fact that Miller's Batman universe is not an in-continuity story, further evidenced by the fact that as DC got caught up in the DK2 hype they publicly entertained the notion that Miller would be given an ongoing book to tell stories in his own Batman universe without infringing on actual Batman continuity. Of course, when DK2 was released, all DC editors who had entertained the project quickly shut up.

And again I say "possible futures" don't count for the simple fact that any number of possibilities could take place by then. For example, the theory has been tossed aropund in various books that as Superman absorbs more and more solar energy, he could possibly become completely invulnerable to Kryptonite at some point in the future. Now IF that were to happen, it would be completely impossible for Batman or any human being to overcome him. Now it's not an entirely likely scenario, but it is a "possible future", and to me it proves that there are too many variables for a possible future scenario like DKR or Batman Beyond to be considered "official".

I stand by my belief that if Batman and Superman had an actual, physical confrontation, as in NOW, in-continuity, in some one-shot or other book not tainted by editorial prejudice, a victory by Batman would not be impossible, but highly unlikely.

[Trunks]

zane you suck I will just block your heat ray and fly after you ha what now.