Why wasn't Karai in the 80 series? - Page 2

*Coola Yagami* · 11-05-2013, 07:06 PM

Lotus was no Karai. There can be more than one female ninja you know. Plus, Karai was NOT Shredder's subordinate. That was 2K3's idea, so the OT didn't have to go the same route.

Red Sky could have taken advantage that Shredder was trapped in Dimension X and bring in the Japan Foot and have a side-story aside from the Dregg bs. Totally missed op there.

*sdp* · 11-05-2013, 07:14 PM

Missed opportunity? That arc would be too ambitious for the OT. The OT already has enough missed opportunities based on their own universe and rules...

*Xav* · 11-06-2013, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkLightDragon

Because having two Karais running around in one show is silly.

And having four Mike's running around in one show wasn't?

*CyberCubed* · 11-06-2013, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xav

And having four Mike's running around in one show wasn't?

Uh.....no.

*Xav* · 11-06-2013, 02:52 PM

But why is that? Why are four mutant turtles ok but you can't have two female ninjas?

*MsMarvelDuckie* · 11-06-2013, 10:10 PM

Because there are enough similarities between them that it would have been too confusing. Both were female ninjas, yes, but they also were both "enemies" to the turtles in some way, and both had ties to Shredder. (Karai from the Foot, Lotus was hired by Krang) Then there is the Leo crush thing with both of them (at least in the cartoons). It's too much similarity to warrant having BOTH of them in one show. And since the OT was nearing its end by the time Karai was even introduced in the comics, it would have been pointless to have her there. They never even gave a proper resolution to the Mikey/Kala thing, much less Lotus, so even that angle really wouldn't have fit. (And it wasn't in Mirage, anyway.)

Casey · 11-06-2013, 10:18 PM

I was just wondering the same thing the other day, but forgot to research it. I love it when this forum comes in handy and provides some new information. Of course we all really just come here to take part in the fanboy sass and attempt to one up each other right?

*Xav* · 11-07-2013, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Then there is the Leo crush thing with both of them (at least in the cartoons).

But the Leo crush was invented for the 4Kids series, so it most likely wouldn't have happened if Karai did appear in the OT.

*CyberCubed* · 11-07-2013, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey

I was just wondering the same thing the other day, but forgot to research it. I love it when this forum comes in handy and provides some new information. Of course we all really just come here to take part in the fanboy sass and attempt to one up each other right?

You mean you didn't know Karai wasn't created until 1992, which is by the time the OT was already in Season 6?

*Panda_Kahn_fan* · 11-07-2013, 12:53 PM

I've actually heard some people say 'Lotus ain't got nothin on Karai' and call Louts a Karai rip-off. Yet Lotus Blossom predates Karai, and most of the non-mirage traits the average turtles fan associates with Karai originated with lotus.

*MsMarvelDuckie* · 11-07-2013, 05:30 PM

Indeed. And more interestingly, (IMHO) Lotus was not a member of any ninja clan- she was SELF-taught! So she actually DOES have something on Karai, she learned on her own initiative, by actively seeking out teachers, and doing it all for her own goals, rather than being raised by any particular clan or training under the same sensei her entire life. I'd say that actually makes her the better kunoichi. (And she was here FIRST!!)

*MsMarvelDuckie* · 11-07-2013, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xav

But the Leo crush was invented for the 4Kids series, so it most likely wouldn't have happened if Karai did appear in the OT.

No, it originated with Lotus. Since 4Kids version of Karai is based more on her, then it would never have happened if it had not been in the OT FIRST. (Mirage had no Leo'Karai "crush", but OT most definitely DID have the crush aspect between him and the female ninja. Apparently, he's ALWAYS had a thing for "bad girls"....)

And since Karai never even existed in the OT, saying it wouldn't have happened with her is a moot point. The "original" one WAS there, and it DID happen.

*Coola Yagami* · 11-07-2013, 06:00 PM

That depends on how much of the OT the 2K3 writers even watched. I still say it could been done. Let Karai lead the true Foot Clan in Shredder's absence. Hell, it would be a good excuse to bring Lotus in for a third episode to have both female ninjas face off.

Quite literally, Karai in the OT would have explained what exactly happened to the Foot Clan in Japan when Shredder moved to New York and replaced everyone with robots.

*MsMarvelDuckie* · 11-07-2013, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

That depends on how much of the OT the 2K3 writers even watched. I still say it could been done. Let Karai lead the true Foot Clan in Shredder's absence. Hell, it would be a good excuse to bring Lotus in for a third episode to have both female ninjas face off.

Quite literally, Karai in the OT would have explained what exactly happened to the Foot Clan in Japan when Shredder moved to New York and replaced everyone with robots.

But he DIDN'T replace all of them- the "real" Foot Clan was busy running all his phony businesses in New York- you know, like all those "Ninja Pizza/Laundromat/Dentist" places the turtles kept running across in some episodes. He evidently took them all with him to New York, and then apparently turned them into the public face of his criminal empire. Makes sense that he'd do that, since he needed someone to keep up with his criminal network while he was tooling around in the Technodrome! Heck, he even had a few women working for him- like the secretary of that "security" company he used to clean out high-tech firms in the first episode. So there WAS still a "Foot Clan", the robots were just easier to replace as fighters.

As for a Lotus/Karai face-off- that wouldn't even make sense. There were no other factions of the Foot in the OT, unless one counts Splinter and the turtles as one- which they should be, given that he was the TRUE leader of the clan in that version. Which makes his feud with Shredder even more personal. Karai had no reason to even be there at all. Lotus did.

Garfield · 11-10-2013, 11:06 AM

I think people blow 2003 Leo and Karai's relationship out of proportion a bit. I don't recall there ever being a crush between the two. Admiration, friendship and then confrontation but no crush that I recall. 87 Leo and Lotus' was a romantic one though.

I don't deny that there are parallels between 87 Leo and Lotus and 2003 Leo and Karai, but I don't know if we can say for a fact that 2003 Karai was influenced by lotus without any evidence from the people who worked on the 2003 toon stating as such. For all we know, the parallels could be just a coincidence.

As for why Karai didn't appear in the 87 toon? Who knows? maybe the people who worked on the cartoon didn't know she existed. Karai was a very obscure character at the time. Would it have been cool to see her...sure it would have. But in retrospect, I had no expectations for her.

Leofan26 · 11-10-2013, 03:45 PM

I wonder what she would have been like in the 80's series? We kind of saw that in the 80's / 2003 crossover movie but not much of her. It had romance in that series so I wonder if Leo really would had a crush on her?

*Cipher* · 11-10-2013, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

I've actually heard some people say 'Lotus ain't got nothin on Karai' and call Louts a Karai rip-off. Yet Lotus Blossom predates Karai, and most of the non-mirage traits the average turtles fan associates with Karai originated with lotus.

Right, but none of the Mirage traits. The "non-Mirage traits" weren't a thing until 2004, nearly fifteen years after Lotus Blossom's last appearance, and what similarities they share are such general tropes I'd bet solid money on them being nothing more than absolute coincidence.

But, yeah, I agree with certain other posters here that it kind of rubs me the wrong way when they say Lotus Blossom and Karai are just overlapping characters. There's the whole "What, just because they're two ninja women thing?", but I'll be fair and acknowledge that there are indeed character similarities between her and the 4Kids and Nickelodeon Karais. However, had something approximating the Mirage Karai, the only existing version at the time, been introduced to later seasons of the cartoon, there'd be no reason to anticipate an overlap.

On that note, it's kind of a bizarre miracle that we got a randomly faithful portrayal of Karai in TMNT Tournament Fighters as her only non-comic appearance before the end of the '90s. Does anybody know what was up with that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garfield

I think people blow 2003 Leo and Karai's relationship out of proportion a bit. I don't recall there ever being a crush between the two. Admiration, friendship and then confrontation but no crush that I recall. 87 Leo and Lotus' was a romantic one though.

You're dead-on. I don't think there was any romantic subtext in the 4Kids series, intentional or otherwise. There is a distinct Leo/Karai rivalry, but it's very much about one trying to convert another warrior to the others' perspective, and later sheer animosity. The Nickelodeon series is the only version to begin (though it's since been dropped) with some one-sided interest from Leonardo, and it works there with the younger characters and playing off the April/Donatello plot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Indeed. And more interestingly, (IMHO) Lotus was not a member of any ninja clan- she was SELF-taught! So she actually DOES have something on Karai, she learned on her own initiative, by actively seeking out teachers, and doing it all for her own goals, rather than being raised by any particular clan or training under the same sensei her entire life. I'd say that actually makes her the better kunoichi. (And she was here FIRST!!)

Well, to be pedantic, not over all Karais. IDW's Karai has been one of the characters in the series to really grow on me, and the fact that she basically refounded the ninja side of the Foot from the ground up and is hyper-motivated/totally vicious are big reasons why. I hope she gets her chance to shine once Shredder's gone.

*CyberCubed* · 11-10-2013, 04:47 PM

Raphael calls Karai, "Leonardo's lady friend" in 2k3.

Whether there was romantic subtext or not, Raphael did comment on it.

*Cipher* · 11-10-2013, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Raphael calls Karai, "Leonardo's lady friend" in 2k3.

Whether there was romantic subtext or not, Raphael did comment on it.

That's thin enough to sneeze through and a total throwaway line.

There wasn't. The 4Kids series just hit the wrong batch of LiveJournal-type fans.

11-05-2013, 07:06 PM	#21
Coola Yagami Overlord Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 15,682	Lotus was no Karai. There can be more than one female ninja you know. Plus, Karai was NOT Shredder's subordinate. That was 2K3's idea, so the OT didn't have to go the same route. Red Sky could have taken advantage that Shredder was trapped in Dimension X and bring in the Japan Foot and have a side-story aside from the Dregg bs. Totally missed op there. __________________ "I was down with TMNT once, but then they changed what TMNT was. Now what I was down with is no longer TMNT and what TMNT now is seems weird and scary. And it'll happen to YOU." Check out my blog for Comic Reviews and other things. https://markepicblogofrandomness.blogspot.com/ I also started The AEW Crew, the All Elite Wrestling Fan Club! https://www.facebook.com/groups/637508120044168/

11-05-2013, 07:14 PM	#22
sdp Detoxed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Tokio, Italy Posts: 11,185	Missed opportunity? That arc would be too ambitious for the OT. The OT already has enough missed opportunities based on their own universe and rules... __________________ *Trapt* *urself Page MiscRave!!!* Click to join The Drome Discord server

11-06-2013, 10:10 PM	#26
MsMarvelDuckie I Married a Duck! Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: The bowels of Hell, Texas(otherwise known as Decatur) Posts: 8,773	Because there are enough similarities between them that it would have been too confusing. Both were female ninjas, yes, but they also were both "enemies" to the turtles in some way, and both had ties to Shredder. (Karai from the Foot, Lotus was hired by Krang) Then there is the Leo crush thing with both of them (at least in the cartoons). It's too much similarity to warrant having BOTH of them in one show. And since the OT was nearing its end by the time Karai was even introduced in the comics, it would have been pointless to have her there. They never even gave a proper resolution to the Mikey/Kala thing, much less Lotus, so even that angle really wouldn't have fit. (And it wasn't in Mirage, anyway.) __________________ "You IDIOTS! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -from "Spaceballs" "Where Science ends, magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491 My various stories and fan-fics are now here- https://m.fanfiction.net/u/4770494/#end

11-06-2013, 10:18 PM	#27
Casey Stone Warrior Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Brooklyn, NYC Posts: 583	I was just wondering the same thing the other day, but forgot to research it. I love it when this forum comes in handy and provides some new information. Of course we all really just come here to take part in the fanboy sass and attempt to one up each other right? __________________ GOONGALA!

11-07-2013, 12:53 PM	#30
Panda_Kahn_fan Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,715	I've actually heard some people say 'Lotus ain't got nothin on Karai' and call Louts a Karai rip-off. Yet Lotus Blossom predates Karai, and most of the non-mirage traits the average turtles fan associates with Karai originated with lotus. __________________ My TMNT fanfic: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1266176...n-a-Half-Shell IDW is the best version of TMNT If they make a TMNT reboot movie retelling the shredder battle/origin, I won't buy a ticket.

11-06-2013, 02:52 PM	#25
Xav Foot Elite Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 3,040	But why is that? Why are four mutant turtles ok but you can't have two female ninjas?

11-07-2013, 05:30 PM	#31
MsMarvelDuckie I Married a Duck! Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: The bowels of Hell, Texas(otherwise known as Decatur) Posts: 8,773	Indeed. And more interestingly, (IMHO) Lotus was not a member of any ninja clan- she was SELF-taught! So she actually DOES have something on Karai, she learned on her own initiative, by actively seeking out teachers, and doing it all for her own goals, rather than being raised by any particular clan or training under the same sensei her entire life. I'd say that actually makes her the better kunoichi. (And she was here FIRST!!) __________________ "You IDIOTS! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -from "Spaceballs" "Where Science ends, magic begins." -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491 My various stories and fan-fics are now here- https://m.fanfiction.net/u/4770494/#end

11-07-2013, 06:00 PM	#33
Coola Yagami Overlord Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 15,682	That depends on how much of the OT the 2K3 writers even watched. I still say it could been done. Let Karai lead the true Foot Clan in Shredder's absence. Hell, it would be a good excuse to bring Lotus in for a third episode to have both female ninjas face off. Quite literally, Karai in the OT would have explained what exactly happened to the Foot Clan in Japan when Shredder moved to New York and replaced everyone with robots. __________________ "I was down with TMNT once, but then they changed what TMNT was. Now what I was down with is no longer TMNT and what TMNT now is seems weird and scary. And it'll happen to YOU." Check out my blog for Comic Reviews and other things. https://markepicblogofrandomness.blogspot.com/ I also started The AEW Crew, the All Elite Wrestling Fan Club! https://www.facebook.com/groups/637508120044168/

11-10-2013, 11:06 AM	#35
Garfield Hench Mutant Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: New England Posts: 432	I think people blow 2003 Leo and Karai's relationship out of proportion a bit. I don't recall there ever being a crush between the two. Admiration, friendship and then confrontation but no crush that I recall. 87 Leo and Lotus' was a romantic one though. I don't deny that there are parallels between 87 Leo and Lotus and 2003 Leo and Karai, but I don't know if we can say for a fact that 2003 Karai was influenced by lotus without any evidence from the people who worked on the 2003 toon stating as such. For all we know, the parallels could be just a coincidence. As for why Karai didn't appear in the 87 toon? Who knows? maybe the people who worked on the cartoon didn't know she existed. Karai was a very obscure character at the time. Would it have been cool to see her...sure it would have. But in retrospect, I had no expectations for her.

11-10-2013, 03:45 PM	#36
Leofan26 Mad Scientist Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 1,306	I wonder what she would have been like in the 80's series? We kind of saw that in the 80's / 2003 crossover movie but not much of her. It had romance in that series so I wonder if Leo really would had a crush on her?

11-10-2013, 04:47 PM	#38
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,798	Raphael calls Karai, "Leonardo's lady friend" in 2k3. Whether there was romantic subtext or not, Raphael did comment on it.