New appreciation for Splinter being Hamato Yoshi.

[***First of Two Latin Kings***]

This seems to be the first thread, to address even on a tangent, the parallels between this odd new movie universe and the IDW series, which was the first TMNT media product to be put out under the ownership of Viacom. I'm more than willing to bet that they bring in the reincarnation aspect in the sequel to this movie. Baxter has been confirmed for either the next movie or the one after, as far as I know, so it is very possible they will go the reincarnation route, where Splinter actually IS the reincarnation of Hamato Yoshi, which is why he goes to such great lengths to keep them from going to the surface, even to the extent of being abusive towards them, as a result of already having lost them once, in the movie. I could be wrong, but I'm also still not convinced that Saki isn't an Utrom/Ch'rell in this universe. The scene where he defeated that Foot Soldier with his arms tied SCREAMED 4Kids to me. Sachs I am convinced now is a flesh and blood human. The only real evidence against Saki being Ch'rell in this universe is the scarred face, which doesn't make sense if he's an alien in an exosuit.

[ironman29758]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

I love the Hamato Yoshi becomes Splinter origin, Splinter losing his wife and child and his humanity is more tragic than losing a human owner he only knew when he wasn't intelligent enough to appricate before he mutated. So reincarnation or human Yoshi mutated are both awesome to me.

Agreed. I like the IDW and the Nick origin.I like the element of tragedy that they had with Hamato looking his family before turning into a rat yet finding a new family in the form of his turtle sons. From everything I hear about the movie, it's entirely possible with them going the IDW origin reincarnation route with the new movies.

[Midnight Mutant]

I've always favored this origin myself. It's not only more logical, but it connects Shredder to Splinter/turtles more.

I remember in the first movie thinking 'Boy Saki must have REALLY liked his face to be that pissed off at Splinter for scratching it' The face scratch was the only reason Shredder had to hate Splinter so much. It was odd.

In the original it was Splinter that sought out Shredder for revenge, which makes a little more sense, but Yoshi turn Splinter really makes their relationship makes a better arc.

I don't mind the IDW origin where Splinter is Yoshi, but reincarnated. So he technically started as a rat, but remembers his past life after mutating and that's how he knows ninjitsu.

But, Yoshi turn Splinter is still my favorite.

[Candy Kappa]

personally, I prefer the rat origin, mainly Mirage's version. As I find the overall back-story more appealing and less good vs. evil easy to digest.

But, I do really like the version in the Nick toon. Do not like the IDW reincarnation angle, apparently girls don't get reincarnated, an the whole fate & destiny, all connected makes things feel smaller, a smaller world.

[Y2Bogus]

Originally Posted by TerranigmaFreak

This is easy to rationalize. After being changed into a Rat, he was no longer the man he once was, hence the name change.

After his wife was killed by Saki, there was nothing left of Yoshi but a splinter.

[Mutant Ninja Anole]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

personally, I prefer the rat origin, mainly Mirage's version. As I find the overall back-story more appealing and less good vs. evil easy to digest.

But, I do really like the version in the Nick toon. Do not like the IDW reincarnation angle, apparently girls don't get reincarnated, an the whole fate & destiny, all connected makes things feel smaller, a smaller world.

Now hold on a second,

Firstly, the nature of the reincarnation and the role of the larger purpose at play here have not been totally explained. They may never totally be explained but there's implications that what happened to the turtles and Splinter was unique, perhaps tied into Shredder. That is, whether or not the traditional concept of reincarnation happens in the IDW universe there's more going on here. Complaining about the lack of female reincarnation misses that Tang Shen has played a more active and direct role in the IDW comics as a guiding light to Leo and Splinter than in any other incarnation of her IMHO.

I don't know what to say about the idea that an ultimate good in the IDW universe making things smaller other than...I disagree?

If you can get bye the oddity of Splinter learning moves in his cage pre-mutation, the original origin works just fine. But there is a degree of drama to the Yoshi becomes Splinter angle.

[ssjup81]

In the OT series, I'm pretty sure Splinter mentioned that the turtles gave him that nickname.

That aside, I definitely prefer the Hamato Yoshi > Rat story as opposed to the Hamato Yoshi's Rat > Splinter origin. I know that rats are supposed to be smart creatures, but a rat learning Ninjutsu from watching his master just seems farfetched to me, even though the series stars four giant mutant turtles, so I shouldn't be all that nitpicky, right?

I also prefer the human > rat story because it's more personal between Shredder and Splinter and I also feel more sorry for Splinter's situation.

He was once a human. A human, I'm sure, would have a more difficult time adapting to having to live in the sewers, being ostracized, etc., as opposed to a rat who just became a big rat. I could see him adjusting faster, and easier, than a human who has always been welcomed by the human world. I guess for me, Yoshi > Splinter is more tragic to me.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

personally, I prefer the rat origin, mainly Mirage's version. As I find the overall back-story more appealing and less good vs. evil easy to digest.

But, I do really like the version in the Nick toon. Do not like the IDW reincarnation angle, apparently girls don't get reincarnated, an the whole fate & destiny, all connected makes things feel smaller, a smaller world.

You're talking about Tang Shen not reincarnating. From what we've seen in the comics, she's risen to become something more powerful than a mutant, a cosmic entity like Kitsune and the Rat King. She's more powerful than her sons and husband combined.

[Shift]

Originally Posted by ElectricN

its weird, an episode in 2k3 has the foot capturing splinter and giving him to shredder, and shredders pissed that he only got the rat and not the turtles. in nick, shredders whole rivalry was based around splinter, killing him is the ultimate goal.

Wasn't it Hun with the grudge against Splinter for scarring his face? The ones Shredder had a grudge against were

Spoiler:

the other Utroms

, and just wanted to take out anyone in league with his enemies, which he suspected of both Splinter and the turtles.

[Bry]

I prefer the Mirage original because I think it works the best thematically - the whole driving force between the Turtles' rivalry with the Shredder and the Foot is a cycle of vengeance, and having it go back and forth a few times before the Turtles are embroiled in it makes it work so much better. It gives it weight, and by the time it's wrapped up in City at War, it really feels like the end of a long journey.

But the Nick version really made Yoshi-as-Splinter work for me in a way nothing else has before, and that's because this version is just so... dark. His wife is murdered and his home it burned to the ground, and his daughter is stolen and raised to hate him by his greatest enemy. They managed to make it so much darker than the black-and-white indie comic inspired by Frank Miller. That's a hell of a feat.

I'm not a huge fan of the reincarnation element of the IDW version, but there have been some moments that have really made it work, and I definitely respect how they're able to have it "both ways" - Splinter's a mutated rat but he's also Hamato Yoshi. For a series based on combining all the property's disparate elements into a cohesive whole, that's kind of the perfect idea. Not my favourite version, but for that series it works surprisingly well.

But no matter what your take on him is, I think Splinter needs to be a character who is driven by the tragic loss of his previous family. As long as you get that, you've probably done the character right.

[Allio]

I always preferred the rat origin myself, you know, can never beat a classic

though yeah, the movie did go a little stupid with learning from a book

[Shiro Kame]

I like this version of Splinter too. It makes more sense on how the turtles would be able to know Ninjutsu. While animals are smart, I doubt that a rat would be able to completely remember his past life and be able to teach ninjutsu. And it also gives him more background and more of a reason for him to be Shredder's archenemy. The other reasons didn't really cut it. 2k3 was because Splinter and his sons were always stopping his plans. '87 was because of a rivalry and Splinter possibly proving his innocence and reclaiming his rightful place as the Shidoshi of the Foot Clan. They were pretty weak motives compared to this one.

[IndigoErth]

Yeah, I have a strong preference for the former human version. Not only in terms of the whys and hows of him knowing and training the Turtles in martial arts, but also in how they simply live their lives and go about it like any other people, despite not being quite human.

If he was once a normal man, that kind of helps in terms of assuming he'd also educate them on other subjects as well, why there's reason for any of them to be fluent in English and Japanese. Or even own things like a refrigerator.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Yeah, I have a strong preference for the former human version. Not only in terms of the whys and hows of him knowing and training the Turtles in martial arts, but also in how they simply live their lives and go about it like any other people, despite not being quite human.

If he was once a normal man, that kind of helps in terms of assuming he'd also educate them on other subjects as well, why there's reason for any of them to be fluent in English and Japanese. Or even own things like a refrigerator.

This. I also liked the idea that maybe, while Yoshi was a Master Ninja, he was also very smart in technology/science, and was able to pass some of that knowledge to Donny.

[NitpickingMask]

Anybody saying that "Splinter learned moves by mimicking Yoshi" is stupid is forgetting that this is franschise called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

In otherwords, whole concept is silly and reason why they are turtle ninjas is because its ridiculous idea since turtles are anything but ninja like.

If you find it mutant turtle ninjas somehow easier to accept, you might as well assume that mutagen improved Splinter in such way that he was able to perform from memory stuff he saw Yoshi to do. Like, maybe if turtles had been watching cooking shows for years and then mutated they'd be master cooks or something silly like that

And yeah, its true that them being same character makes everything even more personal, but Splinter being separate character highlights how ridiculous whole "You killed my brother! You and your wife dies!" "You killed my owner! Prepare to die!" cycle of revenge is

The movie book thing is just stupid, there is no way you can become martial art master without anybody teaching you

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by NitpickingMask

Anybody saying that "Splinter learned moves by mimicking Yoshi" is stupid is forgetting that this is franschise called Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

In otherwords, whole concept is silly and reason why they are turtle ninjas is because its ridiculous idea since turtles are anything but ninja like.

If you find it mutant turtle ninjas somehow easier to accept, you might as well assume that mutagen improved Splinter in such way that he was able to perform from memory stuff he saw Yoshi to do. Like, maybe if turtles had been watching cooking shows for years and then mutated they'd be master cooks or something silly like that

And yeah, its true that them being same character makes everything even more personal, but Splinter being separate character highlights how ridiculous whole "You killed my brother! You and your wife dies!" "You killed my owner! Prepare to die!" cycle of revenge is

The movie book thing is just stupid, there is no way you can become martial art master without anybody teaching you

I'm really sorry, but I really, really can't see the 'pet rat wanting revenge' thing being Darker than 'revenge for my dead wife/loss of my child/children' and on top of that, being turned into what society considers a monster is just a knife in the wound.

[NitpickingMask]

Originally Posted by Panda_Kahn_fan

I'm really sorry, but I really, really can't see the 'pet rat wanting revenge' thing being Darker than 'revenge for my dead wife/loss of my child/children' and on top of that, being turned into what society considers a monster is just a knife in the wound.

"Darker"?

<_< Did you read what I wrote? I said "ridiculous".

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Originally Posted by NitpickingMask

"Darker"?

<_< Did you read what I wrote? I said "ridiculous".

Yes, I saw I just was joking on how fans are always supporting the Mirage version of things (such as the rat roigin) because it's supposed to be 'darker' and 'more mature' I do agree it is more rediculous.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by Shiro Kame

I like this version of Splinter too. It makes more sense on how the turtles would be able to know Ninjutsu. While animals are smart, I doubt that a rat would be able to completely remember his past life and be able to teach ninjutsu. And it also gives him more background and more of a reason for him to be Shredder's archenemy. The other reasons didn't really cut it. 2k3 was because Splinter and his sons were always stopping his plans. '87 was because of a rivalry and Splinter possibly proving his innocence and reclaiming his rightful place as the Shidoshi of the Foot Clan. They were pretty weak motives compared to this one.

I can't say for the 2k3 version but I kinda like Shredder's motivations for the OT. He didn't want to lose his status as head of the Foot. The student betraying his master is interesting. It's also ironic how he was the cause of Splinter becoming a rat. I know that would piss me off. lol

For the 2k12 version, I like the fact that there's more to Splinter. He has more of a reason to hate Shredder since he took his family from him. As for Shredder though....I find his motivations a bit short-sighted and petty. I can understand being upset after finding out about your true past, but I never saw the point of attacking or going against those who had nothing to do with it. It's like Sasuke from Naruto. I empathized with his character at first until he turned on his entire village in order to seek out his revenge, which included his former classmates who had absolutely nothing to do with what happened to his clan. This is something that's always bothered me about this Shredder, especially being rejected by Tang Shen and instead of moving on, he rages (just like Nagi in the Mirage comic). Killing Tang Shen was an accident in this version but he blamed Yoshi and took his kid away.