Ninja Turtles Origin was kinda like IDW.

[Leo656]

I think people "get it" just fine. Some of them just prefer it not go out of its way to be as obnoxiously over-the-top as possible at every given opportunity.

[tmntpower2k14]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I think people "get it" just fine. Some of them just prefer it not go out of its way to be as obnoxiously over-the-top as possible at every given opportunity.

But we established both of those origins for how the turtles actually learn martial arts is stupid, and over the top. The entire premise of TMNT is obnoxiously over the top. So no, I don't think people always "get it" just fine. They'll argue the preference of one stupid, over the top thing over another to death purely based on nostalgia. When in reality, they're both absurd.

[Leo656]

I'd argue it works best when it's at least semi-grounded, but to each their own. Clearly, "Some of it is stupid, thus the entire point of TMNT is to be as aggressively stupid as possible from every angle" is the prevailing attitude lately. But I personally don't agree with it.

[tmntpower2k14]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'd argue it works best when it's at least semi-grounded, but to each their own. Clearly, "Some of it is stupid, thus the entire point of TMNT is to be as aggressively stupid as possible from every angle" is the prevailing attitude lately. But I personally don't agree with it.

I didn't say that either. It's all in execution. But in specific to what I'm comparing. How Splinter learns martial arts in TMNT '90 as opposed to TMNT 2014 is no more or less grounded.

[Leo656]

I think it only works when Yoshi turns into a rat. I know that's not the popular opinion because it came from the cartoon and not the "source material", but it's the only explanation that even pretends to make any sense.

[tmntpower2k14]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I think it only works when Yoshi turns into a rat. I know that's not the popular opinion because it came from the cartoon and not the "source material", but it's the only explanation that even pretends to make any sense.

I agree. Even though the 1990 and 2014 use verisimilitude, or a grounded reality, when it comes to how they learn martial arts it comes off as more glaring in it's ridiculousness because of that. But hey, the cartoon added many great things to the mythos. Colored bandanas, distinct personalities, and I agree the superior Yoshi / Splinter / Martial Arts Master origin.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by tmntpower2k14

I agree. Even though the 1990 and 2014 use verisimilitude, or a grounded reality, when it comes to how they learn martial arts it comes off as more glaring in it's ridiculousness because of that. But hey, the cartoon added many great things to the mythos. Colored bandanas, distinct personalities, and I agree the superior Yoshi / Splinter / Martial Arts Master origin.

I thought the distinct personalities came from Mirage. In fact, the OT wouldn't even touch the Mirage Raph with a 100 mile pole.

[Leo656]

You just won 50 points for using my favorite word that starts with the letter V. Nice job.

Eh, y'know what, you even used it correctly; make it an even 100.

[tmntpower2k14]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

I thought the distinct personalities came from Mirage. In fact, the OT wouldn't even touch the Mirage Raph with a 100 mile pole.

They were there in Mirage, I just happen to think the cartoon made them more distinct, or pop more. The different colored bandanas help accentuate that visually. The way the new movie having the turtles with individual dress sense takes it even further.

Yea the OT didn't touch Mirage period. Too extreme, too gritty, too adult.

Though I will say the first five episodes IMO translate the essence of what the Mirage comics were doing for adults (the satire, the absurdity) but in a much more streamline, kid friendly way.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by tmntpower2k14

That's my point. Both are absurd. As is the very essence of TMNT. People don't GET the property they claim to be fans of.

We get it just fine. And who ever said that Splinter was a normal rat to begin with? Peter even hinted there was to be a story about that at some point that fell by the wayside.

Originally Posted by tmntpower2k14

They were there in Mirage, I just happen to think the cartoon made them more distinct, or pop more. The different colored bandanas help accentuate that visually. The way the new movie having the turtles with individual dress sense takes it even further.

Because nothing screams "ninja clan" like "I need to make a unique fashion statement! I am an individual!" And adopting rainbow colors all around.

Yea the OT didn't touch Mirage period. Too extreme, too gritty, too adult.

If by that you mean it was overly wacky and toy pandery, goofy and slapsticky... yes, Mirage wasn't any of those things. But Mirage wasn't any of the things you describe.

Though I will say the first five episodes IMO translate the essence of what the Mirage comics were doing for adults (the satire, the absurdity) but in a much more streamline, kid friendly way.

Not remotely.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

And who ever said that Splinter was a normal rat to begin with? Peter even hinted there was to be a story about that at some point that fell by the wayside.

I'unno, man. That's kind of an awfully big leap of faith to make, if only for the reason that maybe five people ever saw/heard/read him allude to that. I mean, if it was something that actually had been followed up on, then sure, maybe, possibly... but to most people it's just one of the more absurd plot devices at play in TMNT. And since it's one of the biggest ones that make people insist the franchise absolutely can't be taken at all seriously, it's not one of my favorites.

[Candy Kappa]

Originally Posted by Warhorse

And this all comes across as someone who had to be stoned out of their mind to come up with this sh!t. Sorry, somethings I have to close the door on.

Religion in a nutshell.

[PizzaPower]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Learning - especially "mastering" - anything that's overtly physical simply by reading a book about it is absolutely, unquestionably, indefensibly, irredeemably stupid.

Whether it's more or less stupid than the whole "rat jumping around in his cage mimicking his owner" thing is a matter of preference; they're both really stupid.

the hole learning Ninja from a book is what pissed me off, I wish they would do a new TMNT movie that is bold and not afraid to go there. Have it like IDW strting out with Old Hob, or shoot maybe even have Bebop and Rocksteady in movie 2.

[Shark_Blade]

IDW has better origin, but yeah this one is like a tip of the IDW origin iceberg.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'unno, man. That's kind of an awfully big leap of faith to make, if only for the reason that maybe five people ever saw/heard/read him allude to that. I mean, if it was something that actually had been followed up on, then sure, maybe, possibly... but to most people it's just one of the more absurd plot devices at play in TMNT. And since it's one of the biggest ones that make people insist the franchise absolutely can't be taken at all seriously, it's not one of my favorites.

Well, I don't know too much about Mirage, and the 1990's movie I would say, it is what it is, but in the 2k3, which Peter Laird had the most control over, I think eluded that Splinter was not a normal rat. With the introduction of The Ancient One, Usagi, The Ninja Tribunal and The Battle Nexus, it seems to me that Splinter was a special rat even before his mutation. All the events he would still take part in, he seemed to have prior knowledge since he was in Japan, and had the intelligence to understand those things. How would The Ancient One know so much about Splinter, if it seems the last time Splinter was in Japan was before he got mutated?

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Religion in a nutshell.

Eh, explains why I'm Atheist. George Carlin's view on religion fits my assumptions to a T.

[neatoman]

Well I would not be surprised if one of the screen writers read the IDW comics for inspiration and decided to go with a version of that origin (without the reincarnation of course).

Apart from the fact that they subsituted reincarnation with a random ninja tutorial book instead of something more substantial, I'm mostly fine with the lab animal version of the origin. The original origin was just meant as a Daredevil riff and the cartoon origin had a bunch of holes in it.

[tmntpower2k14]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

We get it just fine.

Clearly that isn't the case. TMNT is a mix of serious (Laird) and stupid (Eastman).

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

And who ever said that Splinter was a normal rat to begin with? Peter even hinted there was to be a story about that at some point that fell by the wayside.

Oh because hints, and no follow throughs, or "could've been" stories equate to something being canon? Right. Either way it's ridiculous how Splinter learns martial arts. In Mirage, or otherwise.

Sidenote: I note your mental gymnastics to prove the Mirage absurdity being inherently "more believable" or less corny / ridiculous than any of the other branches of the franchise. And that too is laughable.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Because nothing screams "ninja clan" like "I need to make a unique fashion statement! I am an individual!" And adopting rainbow colors all around.

No, it screams the teenager part of the equation.



And the fact they're supposed to be likable. Pure ninja clan is the Foot. Why are red bandanas any less ridiculous than orange, leo, purple? More distinguishing elements between the individual turtles is a good thing in my book. The turtles themselves are green. Their abilities to be ninjas is what makes them stealthy.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

If by that you mean it was overly wacky and toy pandery, goofy and slapsticky... yes, Mirage wasn't any of those things.

No, but it was also a cult thing. A concept by dorks aimed at fellow dorks in on the joke of the parody of 80's comic books that was Eastman and Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Complete with it's own goofiness, slapstick, gags, and fan pandering.

Mirage was certainly goofy in it's own right. Through it's melodrama, visuals, it's very concept it had it's own inherent absurdity and stupidity.

The fact you consider Mirage to be absolutely serious is pretty ridiculous in of itself. Those stories, even with it's griminess had tongue firmly planted in cheek.

In fact one could argue given at times it acted so serious with the type of material they were aping with even more absurdity ... it makes the Mirage stuff even GOOFIER considering the context.

And THAT'S THE POINT of TMNT. The very concept was a parody of Frank Miller Batman, Daredevil, X-Men, and Jack Kirby drawings.

A fun parody, with moments of grittiness or bad ass action, familial themes, but it's all ridiculous: Mirage, 80's cartoon, 90's movies, Next Mutation, the horrendous 2k3 series, Nick Toon, and 2014 film.

[Panda_Kahn_fan]

Appearently, nothing DOES scream ninja clan like multicolored ninja outfits, just ask the alien rangers/kakurangers, and Hurricangers/Ninja storm! If japan says multicolored outfits equal ninja, that's good enough for me!

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by tmntpower2k14

Clearly that isn't the case. TMNT is a mix of serious (Laird) and stupid (Eastman).


Oh because hints, and no follow throughs, or "could've been" stories equate to something being canon? Right. Either way it's ridiculous how Splinter learns martial arts. In Mirage, or otherwise.

Well both origins are stupid but relatively speaking the movie version is more stupid.

The comic version has the excuse that their origin which largely has held up was made with the belief that it would never be given serious scrutiny whereas the movie version is made with the mindset of trying to be realistic. What makes it particularly bad is it eliminates a very important part of the TMNT story, certainly the most important part of turtles vs Shredder story.

No, it screams the teenager part of the equation.

Does it?

Certainly one of the designers said that the whole garb the turtles wear it to be reflective of their ninja training.

Certainly teenagers don't dress themselves in bamboo armor or loin cloths and the like so I can see what they were trying to do but it failed. It just looked dumb and served no purpose.

And the fact they're supposed to be likable. Pure ninja clan is the Foot. Why are red bandanas any less ridiculous than orange, leo, purple? More distinguishing elements between the individual turtles is a good thing in my book. The turtles themselves are green. Their abilities to be ninjas is what makes them stealthy.

Well that's debatable. I don't know much about the history of martial but I do know it didn't start that ninjas were assassins for hire. Not to mention TMNT has always been more of modern pop cultures version of ninjas and there's a lot of precedence in fiction of ninjas which the audience is supposed to root for like Batman, Daredevil etc.

Also other than like two small instances I don't think the turtles were stealthy in this movie and the Foot were not ninjas.

And THAT'S THE POINT of TMNT. The very concept was a parody of Frank Miller Batman, Daredevil, X-Men, and Jack Kirby drawings.

No it wasn't.

A fun parody, with moments of grittiness or bad ass action, familial themes, but it's all ridiculous: Mirage, 80's cartoon, 90's movies, Next Mutation, the horrendous 2k3 series, Nick Toon, and 2014 film.

No more than most other comic book properties most of which don't face the same kind of problems as TMNT.

[chrisdude]

There are a lot of things to like or not like about this origin story. But, there's NO WAY that a mutated rat with human intelligence learning ninjutsu from a book is more stupid than an ordinary rat learning ninjutsu by example.



That's laugh-out-loud stupid, right there.