Would the turtles still be as popular if they were females?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Technogeek29

And this my friend is why I'm not in Marketing I would run us into the ground for being to logical. The more useless crap you up sale the more they will buy

Mr Technogeek, please. We're not selling sh!t; these are high-quality all-natural facial cleansing mud masks!

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Maybe if they were done with MINIMAL shell-boobage and maybe just hair like Mona Lisa and a more slender and feminine shape, it'd work well. Or you could go a more realistic route shape-wise and make them a bit bigger and more "butch" gals. Like She-Thing or She-Hulk! (Yes, there IS a She-Thing. She was even a wrestler in the Marvel Universe in the special division for powered athletes.) I could see them as turtle versions of Jersey Red or Abby Finn- that could be kind of cool! (but still keep the basic personalities of the originals- just feminized a bit.)

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by aliena

I think so many people dislike the idea of female turtles having breasts in their plastrons like Venus did. But would you really want them to be flat chested with nothing to show they are female but maybe their eyes or mouths?

Honestly, look at Tigress from Kung Fu Panda, it works. She's probably one of the ONLY anthropomorphic female characters I can even recall that was NOT given human-woman features or accessories as a way of making sure we know she's female.

And you know what? Thanks to the way society is and what we're made to expect, at first did I not know she's a she? Yeah. But guess what, due to voice, name, and people saying "she/her," I found out really quickly. Once I knew, I knew, no big deal; I haven't gone around confused long term or anything.

Whether they give a character boobs or not... Meh. I can take it or leave it. But it just looks stranger on a reptile than it does a mammal, esp one with chest and abdominal plates and said boobs are just there for...no reason. (Other than "look it's a girl!" because people are apparently assumed to be too dumb to pick up on that without them.)


If male characters were treated the way female ones are... near all would be disproportionate muscle men and wear bow ties, just to be sure we understand that they are male.

Imagine the Turtles with bow ties to make sure we get it. I mean that would be cute, but it sounds silly if that was the normal expectation to signify their gender.

[plastroncafe]

Culture dictates that unless we're specifically shown otherwise, everything is male. Female is an outlier...even though we're usually the majority.

One of the many things I loved about Avatar: The Last Airbender, is the broad range of female character designs, most of which were devoid of things like lipstick and cleavage.

Aang and Sokka wore makeup nearly a season before Katara did.

[pennydreadful]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Sailor Moon was a success everywhere. Not just in Japan and the USA. If a japanese show starring girls can be a hit worldwide, why couldn't an american one be? And japanese society is thought as being less "progressive" when it comes to gender equality than most western ones are.

Keeping in mind that the dub of Sailor Moon was straightwashed and completely altered/erased all of the gay, lesbian, trans and genderbending characters (including making Sailors Uranus and Neptune cousins in the US, instead of lovers like they were in the original, portraying Zoisite as being a straight woman when he is actually a gay man, portraying Fisheye as being a straight cis woman when they were gay or potentially trans), I'd have to say that the Japanese version was actually much more progressive. I'd also argue that if the SM dub hadn't been changed to be so "child friendly", it may not have been the success that it was in the US.

Originally Posted by aliena

I think so many people dislike the idea of female turtles having breasts in their plastrons like Venus did. But would you really want them to be flat chested with nothing to show they are female but maybe their eyes or mouths?

I don't think just because someone is female, they should automatically have breasts. A person's femininity is not defined by the presence of breasts (or lack thereof) - if a woman has cancer and has a mastectomy, she is still female. Her breasts being there or not being there don't make her less of a woman. In reptiles, there is literally no functional purpose in having plastron boobs - it's basically just being put in there so people know "which one is the girl one", thereby reinforcing the "girls = boobs and eyelashes and bows" trope. It's not that boobs or eyelashes or bows are bad, but when they're the default markers (and only option) for what is usually the sole female character, it's problematic.

Also, considering the fact that we're dealing with non-human species, sexual dimorphism can vary greatly. In many species, the females are bigger than the males. In some species, sexual dimorphism isn't present at all.

I dunno, I just find it irritating that we automatically have to slap some obvious "this is female"/"this is male" marker on something - society shouldn't be so obsessed with putting everything into a clearly marked gender box labelled "girl things" and "boy things".

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Culture dictates that unless we're specifically shown otherwise, everything is male.

And white. Don't forget white.

[Candy Kappa]

Certainly. The Turtles as we know them don't have any male Turtle traits, besides maybe the Nick Turtled as their shells have a more concave plastron (except for Mikey... Hmmm) which is something male turtles have. But they don't have long nails being Sliders, usually they lack tails, and when they have tails they are actually relatively short for being males.

If TMNT had started out as girls, we'd not have any real female turtle traits to go by, as there are none for the TMNT we know. Had the TMNT been female, we'd be speculating about how a male humanoid turtle would look like and muse that they'd be 4 feet tall, have long nails and long tails.

For all we know the Turtles could be females, but raised as boys, cause Splinter may not be all that good at sexing turtles, juvenile turtles at that.

As for a female TMNT. Maybe, who knows. I'd love them.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

For all we know the Turtles could be females, but raised as boys, cause Splinter may not be all that good at sexing turtles, juvenile turtles at that.

Wouldn't THAT be a plot twist?

[Duke Nukem]

Since turtles are reptiles and not mammals, female turtles, humanoid or otherwise, should not have boobs (aka mammaries). If we're talking movies or TV, they could show that they're female by using female voices. For comics, it would have to mentioned some other way, giving them female names would be a good start.

As for the original question, no, they wouldn't be as popular. If something is about fighting and martial arts, many more guys than girls will be interested in it. At the very least, the writing would have to be completely changed in such a way that it's no longer the TMNT that we all know them as.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

And white. Don't forget white.

And straight. And cis.
#notallturtles

[Refractive Reflections]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Sailor Moon was a success everywhere. Not just in Japan and the USA. If a japanese show starring girls can be a hit worldwide, why couldn't an american one be? And japanese society is thought as being less "progressive" when it comes to gender equality than most western ones are. So I dont' see how, with the right tools and strategy, an american show starring a bunch of female heroes couldn't have worked out fairly well in the 90s. I mean, the Power Puff Girls are from the 90s, too. Okay, they weren't as successful as the Fred Wolf series was, but it's not like they were a blip in the radar. And it's been remade once(an anime) and is gonna be remade again.

Although Sailor Moon may have had a variety of female characters and personalities, in my opinion, I don't think it should be used completely as an example of being "progressive" because many of the characters still contain the pervasive Lolita image. I understand that heroes/heroines are traditionally in shape and good-looking, but even in the intro, any squatting or crouching position the protagonists make, their legs are strategically placed to avoid flashing themselves toward the audience with the microskirts they wear.

...I don't know, it kinda subtly suggests to girls that "skimpy attire" translates to "female empowerment".

[BubblyShell22]

If we're talking about female Turtles who talk about clothes and makeup, then forget it. We don't need that sh*t on TV. As long as they don't have shell boobs and they can fight, then it could work. But then again, what's the point? Why should we have to change them when they're fine just the way they are?

Edit: I think a better idea would be to have maybe a parallel world where the Turtles are female. That would be interesting. But I don't want them to fall in love with their female counterpart. That's just too cliche.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

If we're talking about female Turtles who talk about clothes and makeup, then forget it. We don't need that sh*t on TV. As long as they don't have shell boobs and they can fight, then it could work. But then again, what's the point? Why should we have to change them when they're fine just the way they are?

Edit: I think a better idea would be to have maybe a parallel world where the Turtles are female. That would be interesting. But I don't want them to fall in love with their female counterpart. That's just too cliche.

Not too mention creepily incestuous and narcissistic.

[jenna]

Sorry, no.

Two aspects make the turtles popular: characterisation and action. The majority of female characters are really rubbishly handled on kids TV - often appearing two-dimensional and stereotypical. Strong characterisation would be difficult. It is also less likely that fellas who watch for the action would be less able to identify with female characters, so at least 50% of the current audience would be alienated. Most female comic book characters are overtly sexualised - evidence that there is little appetite for female characters with any real substance. I have no faith that anyone could successfully write compelling female versions of the turtles. Their current male characters are part of the property's charm. TMNT would lose that charm if the characters had less substance.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by jenna

Sorry, no.

Two aspects make the turtles popular: characterisation and action. The majority of female characters are really rubbishly handled on kids TV - often appearing two-dimensional and stereotypical. Strong characterisation would be difficult. It is also less likely that fellas who watch for the action would be less able to identify with female characters, so at least 50% of the current audience would be alienated. Most female comic book characters are overtly sexualised - evidence that there is little appetite for female characters with any real substance. I have no faith that anyone could successfully write compelling female versions of the turtles. Their current male characters are part of the property's charm. TMNT would lose that charm if the characters had less substance.

Well, if TMNT were primarily aimed at girls and written and created by women, I guess things wouldn't be like that.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Candy Kappa

Certainly. The Turtles as we know them don't have any male Turtle traits, besides maybe the Nick Turtled as their shells have a more concave plastron (except for Mikey... Hmmm) which is something male turtles have. But they don't have long nails being Sliders, usually they lack tails, and when they have tails they are actually relatively short for being males.

If TMNT had started out as girls, we'd not have any real female turtle traits to go by, as there are none for the TMNT we know. Had the TMNT been female, we'd be speculating about how a male humanoid turtle would look like and muse that they'd be 4 feet tall, have long nails and long tails.

For all we know the Turtles could be females, but raised as boys, cause Splinter may not be all that good at sexing turtles, juvenile turtles at that.

As for a female TMNT. Maybe, who knows. I'd love them.

You know, I've theorized that they keep their nails short intentionally, to avoid accidental injuries from claws during sparring. As for the tails, maybe they are short due to the mutation changing their spinal structure to accommodate a bipedal mode of movement? At any rate, I'm pretty sure that even if Splinter didn't know much about sexing turtles (that sounds so dirty, LOL!) he would've figured it out the instant they hit puberty and started exhibiting typical male behavior (IE- penile dropping, heightened aggression and territorial behavior, or "looking for mates", albeit subconsciously- also known as self-service....)

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Wouldn't THAT be a plot twist?

I have a "twist" in my main fic of Donnie actually being hermie- but only Splinter knows. (Until it is revealed later in the story- but only to Mikey!) Splinter simply raised him/her as a "boy" to avoid confusion and awkwardness between the four. Unfortunately, he's non-functional on both sides, thus making him effectively neuter. But Donnie still considers himself a male in spite of having BOTH parts!

[aliena]

I don't really remember what I thought of Venus when I first saw her, but I came to realize that the braid from her mask was supposed to give an idea of hair. I did think she should have some form of clothes to cover her chest, but the idea of her boobs being her plastron was just not quite right.

When I first saw a picture of 2k3's Renet I thought she'd be this tough sounding girl who could kick rear, but then she ended up being ditzy and goofy? She wasn't a sex object nor did the guys act like she was sexy. They were endeared to her and actually cared about her by the end of her time on the show.

If I recall, she was even prettier with her hair down and regular cave woman clothes on. What happened to her with the guys during those months they were trapped together would make an excellent fanfic. Sorry, I had to go there.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by aliena

I don't really remember what I thought of Venus when I first saw her, but I came to realize that the braid from her mask was supposed to give an idea of hair. I did think she should have some form of clothes to cover her chest, but the idea of her boobs being her plastron was just not quite right.

When I first saw a picture of 2k3's Renet I thought she'd be this tough sounding girl who could kick rear, but then she ended up being ditzy and goofy? She wasn't a sex object nor did the guys act like she was sexy. They were endeared to her and actually cared about her by the end of her time on the show.

If I recall, she was even prettier with her hair down and regular cave woman clothes on. What happened to her with the guys during those months they were trapped together would make an excellent fanfic. Sorry, I had to go there.

If I start hearing about an increase in Renet DeviartArt posts, I'll know who's to blame.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

I have a "twist" in my main fic of Donnie actually being hermie- but only Splinter knows. (Until it is revealed later in the story- but only to Mikey!) Splinter simply raised him/her as a "boy" to avoid confusion and awkwardness between the four. Unfortunately, he's non-functional on both sides, thus making him effectively neuter. But Donnie still considers himself a male in spite of having BOTH parts!

Not a fan of that idea. Not personally attacking or criticizing, you understand, just saying that twist does not interest me at all.

[IndigoErth]

Meeting an alternate dimension opposite gender version of themselves sounds...awkward.

Either risks feeling an uncomfortable and morally objectionable connection to their other self...ORRRR, preferably, find out that someone otherwise exactly like them would drive them completely crazy and each go home with a better understanding of what they put their brothers through.

Originally Posted by jenna

Sorry, no.

Two aspects make the turtles popular: characterisation and action. The majority of female characters are really rubbishly handled on kids TV - often appearing two-dimensional and stereotypical. Strong characterisation would be difficult. It is also less likely that fellas who watch for the action would be less able to identify with female characters, so at least 50% of the current audience would be alienated. Most female comic book characters are overtly sexualised - evidence that there is little appetite for female characters with any real substance. I have no faith that anyone could successfully write compelling female versions of the turtles. Their current male characters are part of the property's charm. TMNT would lose that charm if the characters had less substance.

Which is pretty sad really, because, as a woman, I doubt I'm alone in being able to relate to a male character in ways outside of their gender. It's a shame the reverse rarely seems to be true, or socially blocked from being able to be because of the way entertainment is made.

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

If I start hearing about an increase in Renet DeviartArt posts, I'll know who's to blame.

Now lets be fair, half of the blame will soon belong to Nick.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by indigoerth

which is pretty sad really, because, as a woman, i doubt i'm alone in being able to relate to a male character in ways outside of their gender. It's a shame the reverse rarely seems to be true, or socially blocked from being able to be because of the way entertainment is made.

^^^^^^
this

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

If I start hearing about an increase in Renet DeviartArt posts, I'll know who's to blame.

Not a fan of that idea. Not personally attacking or criticizing, you understand, just saying that twist does not interest me at all.

Well, it's not for everyone, obviously. It was just my way of explaining some of the odd quirks of his character in the OT series, without going the obvious route of making him gay. Things like why his voice was so much higher in pitch, his wild mood swings, his extreme obsession with mechanical or electronic things (immersing himself in his lab to avoid dealing with others), his apparent lack of interest in girls, and why his bandana was purple. (Since it's a mix of blue and red- two gender-oriented colors....)