Do you think that the show has gotten less serious?

[ABrown]

Actually, I think the show is a little too serious. I've already got the 4Kids series for serious. I would've preferred that Nick's show had a tone more like Half Shell Heroes.

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

To judge an episode on the series, I go by season to see if the quality between the episodes is continuous or deteriorating then go by comparisons. For where it stands, it's honestly like the Teen Titans, ranging from wacky and over the top of adventures to tragic tells as inconsistent writing. While season 1 and 2 retained that balance, the fault at hand is the aftermath of particular episodes from each season.

Except the original Teen Titans series was way better than this series is.

[CyberCubed]

The show is the same as its ever been. Its just that the "freshness" has worn off, and that's why people are noticing things now they didn't before.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by Purple Kraken

In my opinion, I think that the show has gotten less serious.

In season one, there was a generally dark tone. April's father got kidnapped and brainwashed. There were some dark mutations, which includes Snake's, Rat King's and Timothy's. In addition, Splinter was taken more seriously than he is now. Even though there were some silly episodes, the season as whole was dark.

In succeeding seasons,however, the tone is lighter. Now, this could be because of the changes made to the writing staff. However, it wasn't until recently that it began to bother me.

For example, Splinter was taken more seriously in season one. He constantly looked back on his past, and he tried to make sure that his sons never follow the same path that he once took. However, as time went on, he began to show stereotypical traits that challenged his once prominent humanity. He is shown using a cheese phone, eating a cheesicle, and running on a hamster wheel. These actions contradict what his character was first shown as. I am sure the writers used these as cheap gags, but it felt off, at least to me.

That is just one of the many examples of the lighter tone the show is taking. It's frustrating.

What are your thoughts? Discuss below.

I heavily agree with you about Splinter. I liked when he was serious, and even in the Season 3 portion whenever it was serious is when I enjoyed him the most. I liked when he was feral and they were trying to get himself to see he was Hamato Yoshi and not an actual rat, but when they did the the cheesephone, hamster wheel, and eating cheesicles I found those absolutely retarded, because he's not acting like deep-character Splinter. He's acting like Jerry would act around cheese from those old Tom and Jerry cartoons, or any of those other cartoon rodents. While it might've been fine for a cheap laugh for some people, to me it 'undid' much of what gravitas the character was supposed to hold.

They also did this 'cartoonishness' with some of the villains. Tigerclaw was given a shot-glass of milk and purred while drinking it, with Xever trembling and acting weird while giving it to him, which was kind of strange, since he never was shown to be afraid of anyone other then Shredder before. Tigerclaw purred like a housecat even though tigers can't purr and he was made into a 'cartoon cat' with the milk, and Xever should have been glaring at him from afar when Tigerclaw's back was turned, not trying to act like he was his dutiful servant.

Another one was with Bradford and Tigerclaw. They mentioned the 'cats and dogs hating each other' thing which is another 'cartoon animal' trope, even though Bradford practically hates being called 'dog,' especially by Mikey (and probably by Baxter.) He also is shown to want to be human again, so why break character for a joke and refer himself as what he most hated? And Tigerclaw wanted to eat Xever because he was a fish. Another cartoon animal trope, this time about cats eating fish, from what is supposed to be a serious character.

I don't mind when the Turtles act silly (even Mikey and Casey) but I hate seeing it in any of the others. Enemies and allies are cool when they aren't acting stupid or temporarily OOC, but when are the writers gonna ever pass up those cheap laffs? It's why I agree with you so much on the silliness aspect, because I've actually had it ruin other stuff for me, even though I desperately wanted to like what that was. (Remember Duke Nukem Forever? They took what was supposed to be a 'serious' world and made it 'funny,' making Duke's own dark humor have nothing to play against. It's what I'm starting to see in the Nick show.)

There is much in the Nick show that I like, but it's the lame silliness that some writers think is 'cute' is what kills it for me.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

The thing many of you forget is that the show isn't meant to be completely serious. It's trying to be a blend of action and humor. The OT was humor with action while the 4Kids series is action with humor. It does make sense to have the next series do both. Depending on your preferences whether you prefer action or humor, it does at least do a good job at supplying both, imo. I lean more towards a darker version of the turtles but this show does know how to do it. I get tired when they bring in so many OT characters and elements but I understand that they see some cool aspects from it and this is based on my exhaustion of seeing the OT get so much support. As dark or goofy as this show gets, it will never be as goofy as the OT (thankfully) but it will never be as dark as the 4Kids series (even though they do pull some ballsy moves) which I'm contempt with.

[The Happy One]

Originally Posted by Purple Kraken

In my opinion, I think that the show has gotten less serious.

In season one, there was a generally dark tone. April's father got kidnapped and brainwashed. There were some dark mutations, which includes Snake's, Rat King's and Timothy's. In addition, Splinter was taken more seriously than he is now. Even though there were some silly episodes, the season as whole was dark.

In succeeding seasons,however, the tone is lighter. Now, this could be because of the changes made to the writing staff. However, it wasn't until recently that it began to bother me.

For example, Splinter was taken more seriously in season one. He constantly looked back on his past, and he tried to make sure that his sons never follow the same path that he once took. However, as time went on, he began to show stereotypical traits that challenged his once prominent humanity. He is shown using a cheese phone, eating a cheesicle, and running on a hamster wheel. These actions contradict what his character was first shown as. I am sure the writers used these as cheap gags, but it felt off, at least to me.

That is just one of the many examples of the lighter tone the show is taking. It's frustrating.

What are your thoughts? Discuss below.

Bro, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was never made to be Batman the Animated Series. It's not supposed to be super dark with straight face, no laughs business. So while the show holds some realistic and serious consequences as well as emotions and responses to situations, you have to expect that they're not going to go full on dark qith it, though. And if anything, with the whole planet being blown up to Splinter being stabbed to us seeing Tang Shen go down and with those tense, agonizing moments with Karai, to even those little argument the brothers have- if anything the show is more serious now than it was in season 1, if not close to it.

But I see what you mean about Splinter. However, despite the fact that he seldom leaves the lair (which I hate), the cheese phone and the hamster wheel I think are just jokes. No doubt- as we've seen in Tales of Yokai- Master Splinter has a sense of humor so....yeah.
But, if it bugs you that's fine...

[Andrew NDB]

I don't think the show has ever pretended to be serious. Beyond what happened in Japan, which it doesn't really shy away from.

[Metalwolf]

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

The thing many of you forget is that the show isn't meant to be completely serious. It's trying to be a blend of action and humor. The OT was humor with action while the 4Kids series is action with humor. It does make sense to have the next series do both. Depending on your preferences whether you prefer action or humor, it does at least do a good job at supplying both, imo. I lean more towards a darker version of the turtles but this show does know how to do it. I get tired when they bring in so many OT characters and elements but I understand that they see some cool aspects from it and this is based on my exhaustion of seeing the OT get so much support. As dark or goofy as this show gets, it will never be as goofy as the OT (thankfully) but it will never be as dark as the 4Kids series (even though they do pull some ballsy moves) which I'm contempt with.

I don't mind it when they inject humor, it's just that this kind of humor itself clashes with how the characters were established before.

Especially as it tends to seemingly show that Shredder's verbal attacks on Splinter's humanity are actually correct, when Splinter goes home after a fight and acts happily and willingly like what Shredder wants: a rat. He gets a giant hamster wheel, a cheese phone, and eats frozen cheese. Why should I care about a character that literally shows his enemy is right? It might be 'funny' when it's decoupled from Shredder's words, but when you take it in whole (like the show is supposed to be taken) it makes Splinter inadvertently look very very bad.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by The Happy One

Bro, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was never made to be Batman the Animated Series. It's not supposed to be super dark with straight face, no laughs business. So while the show holds some realistic and serious consequences as well as emotions and responses to situations, you have to expect that they're not going to go full on dark qith it, though. And if anything, with the whole planet being blown up to Splinter being stabbed to us seeing Tang Shen go down and with those tense, agonizing moments with Karai, to even those little argument the brothers have- if anything the show is more serious now than it was in season 1, if not close to it.

But I see what you mean about Splinter. However, despite the fact that he seldom leaves the lair (which I hate), the cheese phone and the hamster wheel I think are just jokes. No doubt- as we've seen in Tales of Yokai- Master Splinter has a sense of humor so....yeah.
But, if it bugs you that's fine...

*cough, IDW, *cough Mirage, cough 4Kids*

Sorry had something in my throat, but seriously if these versions have done seriousness, why can't Nick? I don't want anyone to pull the kids show card or Nick being the network, especially because we have had Spongebob doing terrifying material in the past. Do you not remember the abuse towards Gary twice, Plankton driven to the brink of death, or even Mrs. Puff trying to murder Spongebob?

The problem with Nick in my own opinion is the drastic changes and aftermath; the Tang Shen event was near pointless as it led to nothing outside Mega Shredder to a minimal extent. I'm not asking for much, just a nice reflection every once in a while.

[The Happy One]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

*cough, IDW, *cough Mirage, cough 4Kids*

Sorry had something in my throat, but seriously if these versions have done seriousness, why can't Nick? I don't want anyone to pull the kids show card or Nick being the network, especially because we have had Spongebob doing terrifying material in the past. Do you not remember the abuse towards Gary twice, Plankton driven to the brink of death, or even Mrs. Puff trying to murder Spongebob?

The problem with Nick in my own opinion is the drastic changes and aftermath; the Tang Shen event was near pointless as it led to nothing outside Mega Shredder to a minimal extent. I'm not asking for much, just a nice reflection every once in a while.

Yeeeeaah but this show isn't Mirage, IDW or 4kids. It's its own thing. The Nick cartoon was never made to be serious all the time. But, what I think is the main dilemma with the show is that sometimes they leave conflicts hanging for a while which depletes the seriousness of the situation. That's the problem, in my very own opinion.

Besides Spongebob also created Alaskan Bull Worms, The Hash-Slinging Slasher and Wombo

But I see what you mean about leaving things in the air for too long. They definitely could touch up on a few realistic dilemmas instead of new mutants

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by The Happy One

Yeeeeaah but this show isn't Mirage, IDW or 4kids. It's its own thing. The Nick cartoon was never made to be serious all the time. But, what I think is the main dilemma with the show is that sometimes they leave conflicts hanging for a while which depletes the seriousness of the situation. That's the problem, in my very own opinion.

Besides Spongebob also created Alaskan Bull Worms, The Hash-Slinging Slasher and Wombo

But I see what you mean about leaving things in the air for too long. They definitely could touch up on a few realistic dilemmas instead of new mutants

Never, ever diss the power of Wumbo and all of it's influence!

Still, the thing I'm addressing Happy is the Ninja Turtles aren't entirely goof ball material. Besides the wacky adventures, it also knows when to be serious with the central theme of brotherhood and unity. Besides the reruns, the show might benefit of doing less shock value (i.e. Karai's mutation, Splinter's death) and more of building off the situations with aftermaths and the narrative itself.

I'm not asking for a show to be filled brooding nature, just at least some clarification over the events transpiring while containing wacky adventures with a sense of dread depending on the circumstances. It's a personal gripe, but at least don't deny anything previous while in a new adventure. It can be pretty inconsistent from the writing, especially with Shredder from Serpent Hunt to Clash as a notable example.

I'm not vouching for what PK says at all, but offer my two cents as normal.

[The Happy One]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

Never, ever diss the power of Wumbo and all of it's influence!

Still, the thing I'm addressing Happy is the Ninja Turtles aren't entirely goof ball material. Besides the wacky adventures, it also knows when to be serious with the central theme of brotherhood and unity. Besides the reruns, the show might benefit of doing less shock value (i.e. Karai's mutation, Splinter's death) and more of building off the situations with aftermaths and the narrative itself.

I'm not asking for a show to be filled brooding nature, just at least some clarification over the events transpiring while containing wacky adventures with a sense of dread depending on the circumstances. It's a personal gripe, but at least don't deny anything previous while in a new adventure. It can be pretty inconsistent from the writing, especially with Shredder from Serpent Hunt to Clash as a notable example.

I'm not vouching for what PK says at all, but offer my two cents as normal.

Yeah, you can say that again.
I think that's exactly what the show needs. Instead of making huge, huge surprises they should build up story arcs, episodes that tie into each other.

And, forgive me for dissing your Wumbology

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Purple Kraken

That may be so. However, they all had less of an impact on the tone. Those plotlines/stories were created in order to either further an already unnecessary plotline, or get an immediate shock reaction from the audience.

Actually Ciro did go into why he had Splinter die.

He described it at Comic Con that these characters (Splinter and the Turtles) live by the sword, and also die by the sword and so he featured the consequences of that.

This is a statement he made in an interview at New York Comic Con. This is from the interview with Ciro and Rob.

Interviewer: Well how you were mentioning the balance about it being a kids show and not. And I was going to ask Ciro how you guys deal with skirting that edge, 'cause you know their are episodes where a character says "Oh I'm going to kill you..." but he doesn't say that, instead he says 'I'm going to do... something almost euphemistic'. How do you deal with that? And it's gotten very dark obviously. But still... to me...It's still a kids show 'cause of what Rob was talking about. Have you run into issues with that? How do you do that in your head?

Ciro: Well I mean I've always done that in every show I've work on. And i've always gotten that same reaction whether I was at Cartoon Network or Disney, cause I have worked on some pretty...well you know shows that seem like Franchisey existing merchandice, consumer product kind of thing even with Teen Titans. People asked me the same thing and it comes down to the relative stakes and morality of the situation. I mean if you take...Yeah we killed Splinter and these are the gratuitous details of how that all happened...sure you almost seem like it's a selfish gratuitous awful thing to do to a children audience. I think when you look at it complete within the context of the episode there is almost a morality tale there that I think is real important for kids to understand. And It always writes itself...I think to not do it almost at times would be irresponsible. I think to say that these characters live in violence and oh it's just funny and cartoony, I think that's far more irresponsible then it is to show the out come- all though grim and dire- of what comes from that. I think it's you know 'Don't do this because remember Splinter died...people die.'

The problem with Nick in my own opinion is the drastic changes and aftermath; the Tang Shen event was near pointless as it led to nothing outside Mega Shredder to a minimal extent. I'm not asking for much, just a nice reflection every once in a while

This problem is a trope called a Cerebus RollerCoaster.

Cerebus Syndrom is a trope that is used to describe the gravitation of a show turning from like hearted to dark. Or from Dark to light hearted.

Avatar the Last Airbender is a good example of this.

This is more the characters coming to realize things are bad rather than the plot getting heavier. After all, by the second episode, the show had established the lead character as the lone survivor of a genocide. The series also started adding far more dangerous enemies, going from the Prince Zuko and Admiral Zhao in the first season to Zuko's sister Princess Azula in the second season and father Firelord Ozai in the final season.

Cerebus Rollercoaster is sub trope of this as it features a work that constantly switches between Comedy, Dramedy, and Drama.

TMNT is also guilty of other subtropes such as Cerebus Retcon, Knight of Cerebrus, and Sudden Downer Ending but not to the same extent.

The current TMNT show on Nick is a lot goofier than its 2003 predecessor, with the addition of a lot of Japanese visual humor. Despite that, the show can get very dark when it wants to, featuring, among other things, the Shredder beating the turtles to a pulp in a fight that almost completely lacks dialog, the horribly burned Rat King almost forcing Splinter to kill his sons, and a goofy heroic wannabe acquaintance of the turtles being painfully transformed into a feral blob monster.

Another good example of a Cerberus Roller Coaster would be the Manhattan Project AKA Worm Quake. The Turtles had just learned some heavy details such as the Mutagen comes from Giant Worms and Karai in reality being Splinter's missing daughter. And then the next episode we get the Turtles playing an RPG game and then go larping in the sewers

The production staff wasn't ignoring the heavy stuff, it was using the Mazes and Mutants filler to act as a buffer between the previous serious episodes and the serious episodes that were to come such as Wrath of Tiger Claw. Donnie himself even says that they had just gotten through a battle that involved the Foot Clan and the Kraang, when Splinter asks if there are more important things they should be doing.

Wrath of Tiger Claw is also another good example of a cerebus rollercoaster, however this episode was deliberately switched with Pizza Face.

In airing order we ended one group of episodes with Pizza Face....and then started with Wrath of Tiger Claw. After all following Mazes and Mutants we also had Lonely Mutation of Baxter Stockman and Newtralized.

The events of Lonely Mutation don't reference Worm Quake, except for the fact that Donnie now knows the Mutagen is organically based and not chemically based as originally assumed. Thus enabling him to finally make Retromutagen. And Newtralized also was a serious episode as it showed the Newtralizer and Slash taking down and actually slaughtering the Kraang, while the Turtles don't needlessly slaughter the Kraang themselves. And ending in a situation where the Newtralzier commandeers a Kraang weapon and intends to use it to kill the Kraang not caring about the innocent humans that would also be killed as a result. Then we end that quatrain of episodes with Pizza face.

But in production order Wrath of Tiger Claw came before Pizza Face.

For example: Wrath of TC ends with Mikey being seriously injured. And then Pizza Face ends with Mikey in bed leaving people to wonder if it was all a dream or it really happened.

Plausible conclusion: Pizza face is a trippy dream Mikey had while he was recovering from the events of Wrath of Tiger Claw.

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

Actually Ciro did go into why he had Splinter die.

He described it at Comic Con that these characters (Splinter and the Turtles) live by the sword, and also die by the sword and so he featured the consequences of that.

This is a statement he made in an interview at New York Comic Con. This is from the interview with Ciro and Rob.

Interviewer: Well how you were mentioning the balance about it being a kids show and not. And I was going to ask Ciro how you guys deal with skirting that edge, 'cause you know their are episodes where a character says "Oh I'm going to kill you..." but he doesn't say that, instead he says 'I'm going to do... something almost euphemistic'. How do you deal with that? And it's gotten very dark obviously. But still... to me...It's still a kids show 'cause of what Rob was talking about. Have you run into issues with that? How do you do that in your head?

Ciro: Well I mean I've always done that in every show I've work on. And i've always gotten that same reaction whether I was at Cartoon Network or Disney, cause I have worked on some pretty...well you know shows that seem like Franchisey existing merchandice, consumer product kind of thing even with Teen Titans. People asked me the same thing and it comes down to the relative stakes and morality of the situation. I mean if you take...Yeah we killed Splinter and these are the gratuitous details of how that all happened...sure you almost seem like it's a selfish gratuitous awful thing to do to a children audience. I think when you look at it complete within the context of the episode there is almost a morality tale there that I think is real important for kids to understand. And It always writes itself...I think to not do it almost at times would be irresponsible. I think to say that these characters live in violence and oh it's just funny and cartoony, I think that's far more irresponsible then it is to show the out come- all though grim and dire- of what comes from that. I think it's you know 'Don't do this because remember Splinter died...people die.'

In case someone wants to find out where the quote is, here's the link to the video. The part brought up is at 8:05.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKP9S_YXBnM

[Metalwolf]

^^^So I'm wondering now, does that mean Splinter is likely to not have his death 'undone?'

[GoldMutant]

Originally Posted by Metalwolf

^^^So I'm wondering now, does that mean Splinter is likely to not have his death 'undone?'

Seems like Nick is going to have four options ahead of it when the time comes:

1. The death will remain and have an influence on the Turtles
2. The death will remain, without any impact on the characters
3. Splinter will be revived, but the Turtles will be impacted heavily still; might lead to development
4. Revival without any impact and simply for shock value

Hoping to God I'm proven wrong, I want to see the adventures continue even if this Splinter I like.

[Metalwolf]

Well, if he stays dead I'm betting they'll likely bury him at the farmhouse. It might be why they probably didn't show all of the farmhouse episodes they said they made, since the rest of these could've been ones they intended to show later, dealing with Splinter's death and the Turtles' time to mourn.

[victory_angel]

Saving the Earth and Splinter is the best case scenario...unfortunately the best case isn't what happens because that isn't a realistic outcome.

In reality the Turtles would have to face a catch 22 choice of save Earth at the cost of Splinter, or save Splinter at the cost of the Earth. There actually isn't a choice there, because the end result would be the former choice. Splinter would never appreciate his sons sparing him at the cost of millions of innocent people.

And for the sake of argument, assuming they did stop the Triceraton's from using the heart of darkness on Earth, thus preventing the Shredder from killing Splinter.

Splinter could still meet his end another way, be it throwing himself in front of a laser blast meant for one if not all of his children.

In other words the trope where you try to rescue a loved one or someone from an enemy only for them to die anyway at the hands of said enemy in the escape attempt.

[Shiro Kame]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

In other words the trope where you try to rescue a loved one or someone from an enemy only for them to die anyway at the hands of said enemy in the escape attempt.

That's known as a "Senseless Sacrifice." Kind of what happened to Lin in The Legend of Korra (temporarily) when she sacrificed herself to save Tenzin and his family at the cost of her bending, only for them to be captured by the next episode.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by GoldMutant

Seems like Nick is going to have four options ahead of it when the time comes:

1. The death will remain and have an influence on the Turtles
2. The death will remain, without any impact on the characters
3. Splinter will be revived, but the Turtles will be impacted heavily still; might lead to development
4. Revival without any impact and simply for shock value

Hoping to God I'm proven wrong, I want to see the adventures continue even if this Splinter I like.

I'll take option 4 for Two Hundred....

[Chopperface]

I feel that the show's tone is too inconsistent and that their plotting needs work.

I totally understand that usually more lighthearted episodes will come between more serious episodes - and more often than not, they're filler with the faint promise of the villain of the week coming back. The Creep so far has been the only villain from the farm arc to come back, and for what? Just to punch his card to be villain of the week again.

I'm pretty sure Ciro once said that "I know fans want a serialized plot like Korra… but we don't want to do that," because he wants kids to be able to tune in at any episode. However, it's already inevitable that anybody tuning in at this point will be confused; by the end of the first season, this was already in effect. I'm just glad they don't waste screen time with "Previously on TMNT", or rarely ever have.

And I know that there's probably pressure to stay as lighthearted as possible. Other action-heavy shows get the ax pretty quickly these days. Tron Uprising. Young Justice. Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Korra (though that wasn't cancelled so much as completely forgotten by Nick and forced online after a ratings failure thanks to a complete lack of advertising that shows they clearly lost interest in the show). Beware the Batman. It's unlikely the 2003 show would survive if it had started in today's age, certainly not for seven seasons as it did.

There's a lot of politics at play here, it's not as simple as we'd like it to be. I would love if this show would stay similar in tone to maybe the first few seasons of TMNT 2003; in Season Two, it was really aiming for that with episodes like the Manhattan Project, Wrath of Tigerclaw, and the Invasion.

But the refusal to really stay the course with their plots - or to provide a decent conclusion to some arcs - is really hurting the show. The Kraang invasion was a huge moment in the series and we got our Empire Strikes Back, with the promise that nothing was the same anymore. We then spend several months on pure filler with almost no references to the game-changing invasion, or their lost loved ones. And when they get back to New York, the invasion is immediately dealt with in like three episodes (even then, it wasn't a consistent arc since we had the Bebop and Rocksteady introduction in-between), and everything's back to normal. Up to and including them returning to the lair after making such a big deal that it was lost in the season finale. And for some reason the Turtles believe the Kraang are gone for good when their enemies consistently return time and again.

Then Karai. Basically it's playing musical chairs with her because they don't want to change the status quo by allowing her to reunite with Splinter. Oh, she's captured by Shredder. Now she's mutated. Now she's free. Captured. Free. Brainwashed. Freed. Missing. The Fourfold Trap was hysterical because they genuinely believed that we should take their umpteenth separation as a "feelsy" moment. They've already beaten that plot like a dead horse. It's not even a plot anymore. Karai is just a further motivation in the Foot-Hamato conflict.

This isn't a pretty topic. Long story short, I understand why we get breather episodes, every show has them. But it more often than not comes at the expense of the narrative they try to tell and thus it lessens the impact of said narrative when it does take center stage.