the turtles Zodiac/personalities

[heretic888]

I wasn't saying they were mutated in different years, I was talking about them being actually born, or unhatched, in different months or years to fit into the Zodiac signs. We all know the contact of the ooze all happened at once, including Splinter who's waaaay older than all of them. In the original Mirage, I believe they did unhatch in the same glass bowl at God-only-knows-different-times. And were they from the same litter of eggs or just thrown in the bowl together? Oops, that's another question we'll probably never figure out.

I wouldn't matter either way. They didn't have humanoid personalities or intelligence then, so even if this "birth order" has any relevance it certainly wouldn't apply to them. And, regarding the Zodiac/Astrology, considering it has been empirically disproven time and time again (I believe the actual Zodiac correlations in real-life individuals is a less than 1% accuracy), it most certainly doesn't hold any relevance.

In either case, the TMNT were not obviously modelled after any little-known psychological models or archaic mythic symbols. They were meant to be fairly realistic and "life-like" personalities.

I'm not familiar with Godai

Its the five element system in Japanese tantric buddhism (earth, water, fire, wind, and void).

The strange thing about Birth Order, is that it doesn't really matter that they were "born" at the same time. Twins, triplets, quadruplets, will all develop birth order roles even though they were born at the same time. For instance with twins, if there are no other children in the family, one twin will develop a firstborn personality and the other will develop a lastborn personality. So it doesn't matter whether or not the Turtles were born at the same time or not, they would still, and apparently have, developed birth order roles.

*nods* Yes, possibly.

We know that age still affects them, even if they were mutated at the same time. Splinter was older and much more mature than the Turtles at the time of mutation, so that carried over.

That is because, as the Palladium RPG pointed out, Splinter was already a mutant of some form before he was ever exposed to the mutagen.... possessing extraordinary intelligence and memory, not to mention human-like compassion, as a "simple rat".

So if Leonardo had been hatched before Michelangelo and had matured more pre-mutation, then that would have carried over to post-mutation just as Splinter did over the Turtles.

No. There is nothing at all to indicate the turtles were mutants of some form like Splinter prior to their mutation. In any event, the "party line" given by Eastman and Laird is that they are all roughly the same age (thus making any developmental differences based on age irrelevant). Whenever their ages are asked for in fan letters, the same age is given for all four.

We don't really know when the Turtles hatched, or whether they are actually brothers or not.

According to Eastman and Laird, they are biological brothers.

But if Eastman gave particular birth orders to the Turtles, then that must mean something. I wish I could find where he said that.

He didn't. They are always given the same ages in the Mirage/Palladium books, and always regarded as biological brothers. This means (if you know your biology) they all came from the same "litter" of turtle eggs at roughly the same time and place.

I've already forwarded this discussion to him. I should get an answer within a few days and when I do, I'll share it with you all.

If he and Laird's past answers to these questions are any indication, he will most likely tell you they are roughly the same age and biological brothers. Thus making this entire discussion kind of pointless.

It's true that the "elemental" system often greatly oversimplifies people and personalities, but in a way, it can still be used to ROUGHLY classify people into groups. And even if it's not the most precise method to get inside turtles' heads, it'll still be brought up a million times over, because its appeal lies in its simplicity of comprehension.

I already provided a more accurate and realistic system to accomplish this.

Besides, people have to keep in mind that the primary reason for their character differentiations wasn't to prove one psychological theory over another, it was simply marketing at its finest. In order for the kids to buy each individual toy, they better have vastly different personalities (and colours) so that they could be easily identified. I don't think I need to elaborate on that any more.

*chuckles* Apparently you've never heard of a little comic book company called Mirage Publishing.

But if we are going to liken them to humans, then yes, it is true that even if they are twins or whatnot, they would develop differently. In human siblings, it is usually theor overwhelming similarity that pushes people to act differently and thus become a different person. So even if the turtles were born at the same time, or months apart, the outcome would be the same.

Yes. But this has nothing to do with 'birth order' or with the Zodiac. It has to do with their respective life experiences.

Well, just because the TMNT were all in the same bowl at the same time, doesn't mean they were all born, errr hatched at the same time. And anyway, even if they were, there's a lot more to a horoscope than the "sun sign" we're all familiar with. Every planet, and a couple moons, and stars are all charted, and change by the minute.

And it makes a BIG difference, believe me. (And no, I'm not charting all four of them out. This is fun, but not THAT fun.)

It doesn't matter either way, considering astrology as a means of empirical predictions has been disproven time and time again (even when tested by scientific experiments designed by astrologists themselves). The actual predictive "power" of the Zodiac (or any astrological system for that matter) has been found to be less than 1%.

Now, this is not to say astrology is "meaningless" or "wrong", it most certainly has its value and provides an important function among its adherents, but it has been demonstrably proven to have no predictive power whatsoever (no more than random guessing, that is).

Laterz.

[Kali]

*sigh* Well, now I know the answer to that one question.

I, for one, do not put a signifigant amount of faith in the zodiac, or any simliar system. In fact, I think that the influence might be the other way around. Being told that you should be "this way" may push you in that direction. And I've found many people who were very different from what their "sign" said. (I however, seem to be a near-perfect Libra. *grumbles*)

Not that I'm taking this discussion seriously. It's just for fun, and interesting to disect their personalities. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a system we're using for comparison.

[heretic888]

*sigh* Well, now I know the answer to that one question.

Huh??

I, for one, do not put a signifigant amount of faith in the zodiac, or any simliar system. In fact, I think that the influence might be the other way around. Being told that you should be "this way" may push you in that direction. And I've found many people who were very different from what their "sign" said. (I however, seem to be a near-perfect Libra. *grumbles*)

Not that I'm taking this discussion seriously. It's just for fun, and interesting to disect their personalities. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a system we're using for comparison.

*nods* Oh, ok.

[Oroku Nagi]

Jeez...I thought this was a "fun" discussion...

I don't put any stock in zodiology or any other such element talk, so I haven't participated in any of that. But I certainly don't mind everybody doing it and I've read all the posts with some interest.

However you can't discount Birth Order. That's pyschology, and you can look it up. There is absolutely no biological difference between siblings that were born at different times (except that males are slightly more likely to be homosexual if they have an older brother, something about hormones in the womb, seems farfetched, I think there was something about it in a recent Time or Newsweek magazine, dunno how accepted that theory is.)

Birth order is based on LIFE EXPERIENCES, it is NOT based on biology. It is psychology. Birth order is nurture, not nature. For instance, a mother gives birth to her fifth child, but she gives it up for adoption. A couple adopts that fifth-born child and later concieve or adopt other children. That fifth-born child is the oldest of his family. He will develop a firstborn, not a fifthborn personality. Birth order is not biological.

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But if we are going to liken them to humans, then yes, it is true that even if they are twins or whatnot, they would develop differently. In human siblings, it is usually theor overwhelming similarity that pushes people to act differently and thus become a different person. So even if the turtles were born at the same time, or months apart, the outcome would be the same.
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Yes. But this has nothing to do with 'birth order' or with the Zodiac. It has to do with their respective life experiences.

Actually that has a LOT to do with 'birth order.'

[heretic888]

I hate to break this to you, Nagi, but virtually everything you've said is limited to an individual basis. Different couples treat their children differently.

As for the TMNT, Splinter "adopted" them all at the same time so any chronological birth order is irrelevant.

[Oroku Nagi]

Originally Posted by heretic888

I hate to break this to you, Nagi, but virtually everything you've said is limited to an individual basis. Different couples treat their children differently.

As for the TMNT, Splinter "adopted" them all at the same time so any chronological birth order is irrelevant.

You are absolutely 100% correct. You ought to read up on the subject, I'm sure there is some information out there on the web somewhere, maybe even some scientific studies. People do treat their children differently, and the way people treat their children has a huge impact on them. Parents can even reverse birth order, making a younger sibling develop a "firstborn" personality and causing an elder sibling to develop a "lastborn" personality. Of course doing so is pretty akin to child abuse...

But I'm sure you realize there are tendencies for human beings to act a certain way. I learned that in Psychology 101. If we didn't have certain tendencies, than there would be no science of pyschology or sociology or politcal science etc. Heck, learning history would be almost pointless if humanity did not have tendencies. We can make generalizations based on these tendencies. That's what birth order is. Its something that is going to be correct probably 9 out of ten times. That doesn't mean that there is a particular formula for birth order, there is wide divergence within all family roles.

On Splinter adopting the Turtles at the same time, once again, siblings of the same age will still develop birth order roles.

You ought to look it up somewhere, personally I find it to be pretty dang interesting. But then I just like pyschology period.

By the way, where did you find out Splinter was already mutated? I've never heard that before. Or did you just assume so? It's obvious he had to be pretty special, but I haven't heard anything about a mutation. Thanks.

[heretic888]

By the way, where did you find out Splinter was already mutated? I've never heard that before. Or did you just assume so? It's obvious he had to be pretty special, but I haven't heard anything about a mutation. Thanks.

Its in the Palladium TMNT rpg. According to its rules, Splinter was already a mutant of some kind before he was exposed to the mutagen (i.e., he seemed to possess human or semi-human intelligence, compassion, and memory before ever being exposed to the mutagen). He was basically born that way.

In addition, Splinter lived an extraordinarily long life (for a rat, which typically has a life span of 2 years) before ever being mutated, as well.

[Oroku Nagi]

Hmmmmm....cool. Thanks.

[Machias Banshee]

I think heretic found a new friend...

[Buslady]

Raph as a Scorpio (passionate, "dark" and sometimes violent. And very compatable with Libra. *cough*)

yeah it figures...me:libra oct 16.... hahahahahaha

[ForSquirtleMyNurtle]

Anyone who thinks that the turtles couldn't have personalities before they mutated is a little too anthropocentric, especially considering that we are talking about frickin' turtles here. Obviously they had personalities before they were mutated. Don't your pets have personalities?

Of course, I also think it's a little silly to be discussing their signs and whatnot. I mean, event he most profound psychoanalytic models never took into account the psychological effects of being born as a reptile and then suddenly growing to enormous size and becoming anthropomorphic. That's gotta mess you up but good.

Still, the turtles are ripe for Freudian analysis. There is a lot of castration anxiety evident in Raphael's behavior, for instance. And something messed with Leonardo during his anal development phase. Michaelangelo clearly never wanted to give up his mother (even though she abandoned him at the pet store) and so never developed a fully adult personality. It's clearly all very Oedipal.

Also, perhaps a postmodernist reading. How do turtles fit into the functioning of the cultural Big Other when they are not even humans? How did they so effectively learn masculine gender roles in the sewer? Or do some of them actually exhibit feminine gender roles? How would they develop sexually in such a habitat. This is a major question that needs to be answered. In most male-exclusive communities, homosexuality is rampant, but never once have wee seen Don and Mike kiss, even though they'd make a great couple.

Serious issues need to be answered!

[MW8979]

The turtles's male role model was Splinter. I think that one was pretty obvious. They said several times that "he taught them everything he knew" which obviously included proper social conduct, mindset as well as weapons training.

[Pizza Face]

Originally Posted by SuperShredder84

The turtles's male role model was Splinter. I think that one was pretty obvious. They said several times that "he taught them everything he knew" which obviously included proper social conduct, mindset as well as weapons training.

Then how come splinter behaves in an appropriate "Japanese" fashion, and the Turtles act like americans? Also, I am very glad that Forsquirtlemynurtle brought up the issues of anthropology and how that fits in with the turtles. I believe that you may be right about the homosexual nature of the turtles. You are correct in saying that homosexuality is rampant in all male communities. I mean come on. Four, teenage boys, alone in the sewer? Concerining Gender roles and accepted forms of cultural behvior: It is pretty lame to think that a rat could really learn ninjutsu and the tea ceremony while he was a pet rat in a cage. Even if we assume that animals think, there is no way that a non tool using animal is ever going to even begin to understand the habits of their human masters.
Also, the bone structure of a rat is not designed to do double flying dragon kicks, no matter how long he practices. Just assume for a moment that a rat can do the impossible and learn to fight like a man. His ninjutsu would be a hybrid style of ninjutsu and rat fighting. By this I mean that the rat would probably do kicks, but they would be four footed or two footed kicks. There would probably be no punches to speak of as the kicks take care of that. Once more, how did splinter learn to use weapons. It is true that rats have a type of thumb so it is possible that as he mutated, the thumb would become more like a mans. Fine. But, if he mutated at the same time as the turtles, then he would of had to spend the years he was training them training himself to use his new thumbs, let alone complex weapon techniques. Finally, how did he get the weapons to begin with? Did he create a forge in the sewers and melt down pipes and what not to make them? Or did he steal them? This is the most likely answer, although he doesn't strike me as a thief. One more little thing, friends. How come splinter is not a cocaine addict? People flush condoms full of drugs down the sewers of new york all the time. I am assuming that his human master was not a drug addict, so splinter would have no frame of reference on what these substances were. The first time he gnawed open a package of coke, he would be hooked, just like lab rats. Either the turtles were just made up by somebody, or there is something that they are not telling us.

[Kali]

Originally Posted by ForSquirtleMyNurtle

How would they develop sexually in such a habitat. This is a major question that needs to be answered. In most male-exclusive communities, homosexuality is rampant, but never once have wee seen Don and Mike kiss, even though they'd make a great couple.

Dude, Don and Mike? No way!

Leo and Mike. Though I do agree with the above statement and have hinted that "experimentation" existed between the four in my fics. But over all, I think TV and basic "spying" taught them how to behave as well as Splinter's teaching. Though I think their little group has a lot of tweaks to it.

As for Splinter. Rats are SCARY smart. Very intelligent. Okay, so a normal rat wouldn't become a ninjutsu master, but it's possible that he retained the knowledge, and on mutating, his human-like mind suddenly understood what he'd been doing.

Of course, Laird hints that Splinter wasn't even a "normal" rat to begin with.

[Brinatello]

The TMNT and Splinter could very well be exploring unreached and unspeakable things, we just wouldn't see it on public television. Despite the mutation, they're still animals with animal-like tendencies. The show and comics mainly focus on their human-like tendencies instead.

Another reason why I gave them zodiacs was again for their human side. Do you give your pets zodiac signs? Sure, they've got birthdays and personalities, but do you ever go, "Hmm! Let's see what Fido's horoscope says today!" Now, if they were part human, would you do that or still treat them like animals? Tough call.

This topic is getting more and more interesting! Wish I heard from Kevin, though. I think I pissed him off.

[Oroku Nagi]

I have to admit that incestual homosexual beastality never occured to me while watching cartoons. And I never really wanted it to...

I'll just go back to the fantasy world where Ninja Turtles aren't real and fun to watch.

[Cascadia]

Originally Posted by Brinatello

The TMNT and Splinter could very well be exploring unreached and unspeakable things, we just wouldn't see it on public television. Despite the mutation, they're still animals with animal-like tendencies. The show and comics mainly focus on their human-like tendencies instead.

Another reason why I gave them zodiacs was again for their human side. Do you give your pets zodiac signs? Sure, they've got birthdays and personalities, but do you ever go, "Hmm! Let's see what Fido's horoscope says today!" Now, if they were part human, would you do that or still treat them like animals? Tough call.

This topic is getting more and more interesting! Wish I heard from Kevin, though. I think I pissed him off.

my horses:

Zane--Jan. 29 (aquarius)
Patrick--feb. 13 (Aquarius)
Lucky--March 2
Oliver--April 5 (in greener pastures)
Chipper--May 1

dogs
Shadow--June 1
pelto--Nov. 26
sam--December (capaicorn)

if anyone was curious about my animals' bdays
Oliver

[heretic888]

Anyone who thinks that the turtles couldn't have personalities before they mutated is a little too anthropocentric, especially considering that we are talking about frickin' turtles here. Obviously they had personalities before they were mutated. Don't your pets have personalities?

Actually... no, they don't.

I'm not being anthropocentric, you are being anthropomorphic. It is rather quite common --- most people have a tendency to project human qualities and sentiments onto things that do not possess so they can 'relate' to them better. The quirks, emotions, and feelings most commonly associated human personality traits do not exist in animals like dogs and cats (although their existence, in a limited degree, in more developed species like dolphins and chimpanzees is possible).

The simple explanation is that these animals have not developed the parts of the organic brain that support the correlative types of consciousness and "personality" you are referring to.

Still, the turtles are ripe for Freudian analysis. There is a lot of castration anxiety evident in Raphael's behavior, for instance. And something messed with Leonardo during his anal development phase. Michaelangelo clearly never wanted to give up his mother (even though she abandoned him at the pet store) and so never developed a fully adult personality. It's clearly all very Oedipal.

Not to discount the many contributions Freud made to psychology, but the kind of analysis you are referring to is, to be blunt, complete bunk. Your analysis of their personalities as a whole is also horridly skewed.

Then how come splinter behaves in an appropriate "Japanese" fashion, and the Turtles act like americans? Also, I am very glad that Forsquirtlemynurtle brought up the issues of anthropology and how that fits in with the turtles. I believe that you may be right about the homosexual nature of the turtles. You are correct in saying that homosexuality is rampant in all male communities. I mean come on. Four, teenage boys, alone in the sewer?

Hmmm.... this sounds like a lot of projectionism to me.

Concerining Gender roles and accepted forms of cultural behvior: It is pretty lame to think that a rat could really learn ninjutsu and the tea ceremony while he was a pet rat in a cage. Even if we assume that animals think, there is no way that a non tool using animal is ever going to even begin to understand the habits of their human masters.

It has been discussed before that Splinter was already a "mutant" of some kind before he was ever exposed to the mutagen. Especially considering rats only live about 2 years.

Also, the bone structure of a rat is not designed to do double flying dragon kicks, no matter how long he practices.

Which wouldn't matter, considering he was learning Ninpo and not Tae Kwon Do.

Just assume for a moment that a rat can do the impossible and learn to fight like a man. His ninjutsu would be a hybrid style of ninjutsu and rat fighting. By this I mean that the rat would probably do kicks, but they would be four footed or two footed kicks. There would probably be no punches to speak of as the kicks take care of that.

Ninpo is based on internalizing principles, not mimicking exact movements. The Taijutsu of each practitioner is completely unique, there is nothing strange about this.

Laterz.

[MW8979]

Yeah, I have to say that despite the fact that Freud made significant and fundamental changes/contributions to the science of psychology, his theories aren't accepted in practice anymore, just in theory. That's why psychiatrists don't practice psychoanalysis, and haven't since the 50's - it's just too broad and general and incorrect to classify people's behavious based on a few events in their early development. In fact, there is a lot more going on than just a few complexes. So the TMNT can't be classified using this approach either.

[Kali]

Animals DO have personalities, to a degree. Maybe not as complex as a humans, but they do act differently from one another. Not all dogs act the same, not all cats act the same, not all horses act the same, etc.

There's something in them that makes them individuals, a sort of "personality". They have preferences and get annoyed and upset. Not saying they have human-like mental/emotional wiring, but they aren't automatons.