40 killed and 20 injured in Mosque shootings in New Zealand

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

And completely separate and probably prickish of me to ask... but sheesh, I mean, this has got to make you rethink your religion, right? You're at a mosque praying, practicing all due diligence in your religion... and some guy just walks in and blows everyone away -- either that higher power has it out for you, or he's asleep at the wheel or doesn't exist... none of these things being good. I could pose the same thing for the church shooting here in the states a while back.

Right?

I don't think you understand the meaning faith

I do understand the rational behind your thinking.

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

No, it doesn't make me rethink it.

Good to hear, Good for you!

[Leo656]

Speaking from a strictly agnostic and logic-based point of view, and without trying to offend anyone's beliefs, this is one of those cases where the line between "faith" and "delusion" seems incredibly thin from Way Over Here.

Frankly, the only thing I've ever seen/read that made any sense of God and religion was "Preacher". To wit, "God is real, he's just not actually a Good Guy and is rather pretty much just a big jerk who likes to screw with people." Because that's the only thing I could ever even BEGIN to wrap my head around. And things like this are a big, huge reason why.

Whatever helps people sleep at night, I guess. I don't pretend to get it.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Speaking from a strictly agnostic and logic-based point of view, and without trying to offend anyone's beliefs, this is one of those cases where the line between "faith" and "delusion" seems incredibly thin from Way Over Here.

Frankly, the only thing I've ever seen/read that made any sense of God and religion was "Preacher". To wit, "God is real, he's just not actually a Good Guy and is rather pretty much just a big jerk who likes to screw with people." Because that's the only thing I could ever even BEGIN to wrap my head around. And things like this are a big, huge reason why.

Whatever helps people sleep at night, I guess. I don't pretend to get it.

The way I look at it is free will. We were all born with it and what we choose to do with it has consequences not only for ourselves, but others as well. I understand why people are skeptic when people see incidence like this. The problem is people want to blame God or make him responsible and their only conclusion is that there must not be a God, but in actuality they just don't want to believe how dark and sadistic the human race can be. Basically I believe when someone follows this logic they just don't want to make humans accountable.

Thats all I really want to dive in from a religion aspect given the sensitivity of the subject and the fact that we cannot even have a civilized conversation about politics on this forum without it getting out of control.

[Leo656]

So in other words, "collateral damage" is acceptable so long as someone learns a lesson. Innocent people going about their daily lives are merely a sacrifice to the greater good, because we have to be reminded that some people suck and it's important to not be like them.

I guess that's an answer, but I don't like it and it doesn't make me feel any better.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

The way I look at it is free will. We were all born with it and what we choose to do with it has consequences not only for ourselves, but others as well. I understand why people are skeptic when people see incidence like this. The problem is people want to blame God or make him responsible and their only conclusion is that there must not be a God, but in actuality they just don't want to believe how dark and sadistic the human race can be. Basically I believe when someone follows this logic they just don't want to make humans accountable.

But if God is truly omnipotent and omniscient... able to stop such a thing from happening, him actively not doing so... is that not malevolent in itself?

Like, if you're standing on a river and watch someone drown 10 feet away from you. You go to prison because of the Samaritan Law. Same thing.

[Leo656]

This is why I've always viewed God as more of a "Sociopath With An Ant Farm" rather than "Benevolent Creator".

The former makes perfect sense; the latter, not so much, based on evidence alone.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

This is why I've always viewed God as more of a "Sociopath With An Ant Farm" rather than "Benevolent Creator".

The former makes perfect sense; the latter, not so much, based on evidence alone.

Have you seen the Blomkamp God shorts? There's only two of them. You'll love them. Probably... precisely what you're talking about.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Leo656

So in other words, "collateral damage" is acceptable so long as someone learns a lesson. Innocent people going about their daily lives are merely a sacrifice to the greater good, because we have to be reminded that some people suck and it's important to not be like them.

I guess that's an answer, but I don't like it and it doesn't make me feel any better.

What???? I don't understand your point/ comment. I don't think I said that?????

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

But if God is truly omnipotent and omniscient... able to stop such a thing from happening, him actively not doing so... is that not malevolent in itself?

Like, if you're standing on a river and watch someone drown 10 feet away from you. You go to prison because of the Samaritan Law. Same thing.

No you wouldn't you would not go to jail I promise you wouldn't go to jail also every state does not have those laws or every country.



So Andrew the point I was trying to make was the idea of "free will". Essentially if God intervened in everything then we really would not have free will, we wouldn't free to make our own choices or actions. Everything would be pre-ordained and we would essentially be robots. Honestly this subject is incredibly tricky and is an extremely gray area. We live in a world with universal laws/physics and free will. Do I think God can intervene from time to time? Yes. Why didn't he this time? I don't know

As I said before this is simply what I believe and I do understand why people may not be able to or want to believe in a high power when events like this happen, but I feel like they are simply misplacing their emotions on the higher power and not on the individuals responsible.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

What???? I don't understand your point/ comment. I don't think I said that?????

Not directly, no. But you did say that in the Big Picture, there's a lesson to be learned about Accountability. And that's fine. There's a lesson to be learned in everything. But it does absolutely nothing to change the fact that a bunch of people died and got hurt for no reason at all.

Thus, your statement to some degree implies that those people are "acceptable collateral damage" in service to the greater lesson, although it isn't stated directly. I know that's not what you were trying to say, but it can be taken that way.

"Just have faith it was for a good reason" isn't good enough for most people. Those people literally died while in a place of worship, begging for their God to protect them and "deliver them from evil". He answered, "No."

If the gun was pointed at you or I, I'm not convinced either one of us would feel very safe or protected, no matter what we'd believed up until that precise moment in time. I truly wonder how many of those people died feeling not only confused, but utterly betrayed.

I'd definitely die feeling I was owed an explanation, if nothing else. I don't know; the whole thing seems pretty sh*tty to me.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

So in other words, "collateral damage" is acceptable so long as someone learns a lesson. Innocent people going about their daily lives are merely a sacrifice to the greater good, because we have to be reminded that some people suck and it's important to not be like them.

I guess that's an answer, but I don't like it and it doesn't make me feel any better.

Yes, that is exactly what I believe.

That collateral damage is a part of life.

But not all collateral damage has a lesson behind it for people.

Natural Disasters, Diseases and Predation by animals are not morally accountable, for example.

Take of that what you will.

[Leo656]

This once more kind of further reinforces my belief that, were God a person, we'd have very little to talk about and probably wouldn't be friends.

I've given him a try but we seem to have very little in common. Maybe it's for the best that we don't hang out.

I have a bad habit of calling people out for sh*t and he doesn't seem to take that too well.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

This once more kind of further reinforces my belief that, were God a person, we'd have very little to talk about and probably wouldn't be friends.

I've given him a try but we seem to have very little in common. Maybe it's for the best that we don't hang out.

I have a bad habit of calling people out for sh*t and he doesn't seem to take that too well.

Do you reckon Satan would be a cool guy to hang out with if he was a person?

[Leo656]

Maybe, maybe not, but unlike God, I doubt he'd answer most or all of my questions with another question. So at least the small talk would be a little less one-sided.

[Andrew NDB]

It's like... we can agree that God is a malevolent God. Or that he is a disinterested God. Or even a cosmic Sim Earth player kind of thing. But it can't be, "He's a compassionate God, and this is what he allowed to happen at his own worship area because reasons." Or we can agree that he doesn't exist. Or we can agree that he is more like a non-sentient energy force that just... does.

Or we can agree to disagree.

[Leo656]

I think we can also agree that whatever else he may be, he's almost definitely a Hulkamaniac.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

And completely separate and probably prickish of me to ask... but sheesh, I mean, this has got to make you rethink your religion, right? You're at a mosque praying, practicing all due diligence in your religion... and some guy just walks in and blows everyone away -- either that higher power has it out for you, or he's asleep at the wheel or doesn't exist... none of these things being good. I could pose the same thing for the church shooting here in the states a while back.

Right?

Religious people consider everything that happens in their lives as a "test". The thing why they don't become less religious is that they believe in the "afterlife" where they will be rewarded for they suffering and will together with their loved ones. In their eyes it is "worth it".

Remember, religions run on two things: they alleviate fear of death and give your life explanation and meaning, no matter how crazy they are.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Originally Posted by Prowler

The death toll is now at 49.

How did the killers get assault rifles and manage to bring them illegally into an island nation like NZ? Really strange.

Boats maybe?

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

And completely separate and probably prickish of me to ask... but sheesh, I mean, this has got to make you rethink your religion, right? You're at a mosque praying, practicing all due diligence in your religion... and some guy just walks in and blows everyone away -- either that higher power has it out for you, or he's asleep at the wheel or doesn't exist... none of these things being good. I could pose the same thing for the church shooting here in the states a while back.

Right?

No, you vile piece of sh*t. And shame on you for looking at it in that way.

Hey! How about this: does it make you rethink your political leanings since a right winger decided, yet again, to go on a killing spree? No?

I really want to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but more and more you're starting to worry me.

Is it prickish of me to say that any Trump supporter is a bigoted fascist?

And with that, let me say this: From here on out, there will be a zero tolerance policy on anything that can even be construed as racism. Take your bullsh*t elsewhere. We don't stand for it here.