Older Fans on Rise Vs the '87 Toon - Page 2

Mewzard · 11-12-2020, 04:48 PM

While I was born in the 80s, I was born after the 87 Cartoon started, so I don't know if my early 30s ass counts for "Older Fan" in this scenario, lol.

It wouldn't have effected me at all, given my oldest TMNT memory is watching the 1990 movie, which had a big impact in what I wanted out of my TMNT (and probably why Mirage Volume 1 struck such a chord with me, given the first movie took a lot from the early issues).

But while I haven't watched a large chunk of Rise, what I did see I enjoyed, and probably would have enjoyed back in the early 90s where my memories of things start coming together.

*IMJ* · 11-12-2020, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckyday

I do get that was theme they were going for the entire first season, but they seem to drop it for "Family is Important" somewhere in the second half of season two.

I mean you could be right about that shift in content, but I think the greater point is that current shows show kids how to inflate their own egos through the humor whereas older shows where less about "you are already perfect" and more about "this is how you grow to be better".

~~Leo656~~ · 11-12-2020, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMJ

I mean you could be right about that shift in content, but I think the greater point is that current shows show kids how to inflate their own egos through the humor whereas older shows where less about "you are already perfect" and more about "this is how you grow to be better".

Yeah, my wife and I were talking about that not long ago while watching He-Man.

I think it's very telling that the end-of-episode morals and such that were so standard back in the 80s cartoons are considered "corny" by so many now, despite the fact that only positive outcomes could ever come from putting those kinds of messages into kids' heads on a daily basis. And consider the source of the younger people who find such things "corny": Self-absorbed, narcissistic, Participation Trophy types who think "self-improvement" is buying a fancier cell phone.

It says a lot about the current group of young people, and nothing good. I think we'd do well to go back to how things used to be, frankly.

*IMJ* · 11-12-2020, 09:27 PM

Exactly.
And look at the direction of humor in cartoons? It's all about bringing a joke to bear that empowers the center of the show at the expense of another show character as a reflection of the empowerment. Distill that down. The lesson is that "you are better than other people who challenge you, so put them in their place". That's the distillation of it. It's basically a direction of humor that reinforces ego and arrogance and does so essentially through bullying examples. But we laugh when we watch it because it's parlayed as the joke. But it also informs societal direction.

I mean this isn't a podium I'd launch a criticism and hard argument from, but it's more of a sociological observation about the current zeitgeist that I definitely believe is reflective of the times. Arrogance. Personal ego. And no long avenues of respect. Instead it's about demanding respect in the face of oppression when it should be examples of respect in diverse team building. It's a message of conflict to kids from a generation who all got trophies as kids. You can see how f'd up the message becomes.

Groverman62 · 11-12-2020, 10:05 PM

Not disagreeing with the points Aren't participation trophies something the generation before us came up with?

*IMJ* · 11-12-2020, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groverman62

Not disagreeing with the points Aren't participation trophies something the generation before us came up with?

I remember the earliest conversation about the "participation trophy" - I even remember it on the news when that kind of thinking was being adopted. IIRC it had to be the early-mid-90's. '93 maybe? I was in high school and I remember a barrage of news about that theory as it was being employed towards grammar school kids at the time. So technically the creators of using the "participation trophy for equal happiness for all!" were that parental unit that would be in their 50's today I'd guess.

And it was deployed on that generation who today would be in their mid to late 20's and and maybe up to mid 30's to some extent. Ironically a big cross section of the same group you see who can't manage politics and are tearing up the streets with inflated egos that they are "right" or otherwise can't handle what they perceive as "loss".

*CyberCubed* · 11-12-2020, 11:27 PM

I get the feeling Rise was purposely made so different because it came only a year after the Nick 2012 series ended and they didn't want to do another "standard" TMNT cartoon all over again after Nick had rebooted the series. So in that regard I can see why they went crazy with it and just did their own thing, it was way too soon for another TMNT cartoon as the kids who grew up with the 2012 series were just barely aging out of the demographic.

*LeotheLateBloomer* · 11-12-2020, 11:45 PM

If I'm being frank, I don't feel TMNT is popular enough as Batman or Spiderman to where they can radically experiment with it yet (which is partially why so many people were so antagonistic or apathetic towards Rise, myself included). For one, it'd help if casual fans at the very least familiarize themselves with some aspects of the comics like stuff with April's origin or City at War. I say "familiarize" because I know some people don't read comics despite learning about stories such as Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall, The Death of Superman, The Night Gwen Stacy Died, etc. I'm hoping The Last Ronin picks up some steam or makes some waves.

*MrPliggins* · 11-13-2020, 07:46 AM

Interesting question to consider. I haven't seen a second of Rise, but seeing the artwork and designs, I have little to no interest. But that's as a 40+ year old adult. I discovered TMNT at age 10, and I just might have liked it at that point.

~~Leo656~~ · 11-13-2020, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

If I'm being frank, I don't feel TMNT is popular enough as Batman or Spiderman to where they can radically experiment with it yet

Not even close.

*ssjup81* · 11-14-2020, 10:22 AM

I've never seen Rise, so can't really say based on that. The main reason I never watched it is for a superficial one. I hate that style of art and seems it would be a bit too silly for my tastes, but as mentioned, I really don't know and can't say one way or the other. I'm also viewing it from the point of view of a nearly 40-year-old woman, not as a 7-year-old child.

With the original show, I first watched it while it was still syndicated, but not when the pilot aired and saw those eps later on in reruns. Kids at school were talking about the show (along with stuff like Alf lol) so I checked it out. I'm pretty sure I didn't start watching until 1988 or sometime after the pilot in '87. Since I didn't start with the pilot, I probably still would've watched it...but I probably would've stopped watching it after a while too once about 10 or so, maybe if it was aimed at a much younger audience.

For me, I watched up until CBS stopped airing Saturday morning programs in the earlier part of the 90s for my area. The shows were always pre-empted to show junk like Martha Stewart. The only way I could watch it, was through the ones they'd air on the USA Cartoon Express and I didn't even know of the season change to the Red Sky Arc until I visited my aunt one weekend (she lived in another city) and for her, CBS still aired Saturday morning kids shows. I was just so glad to watch the show again on CBS because I was forced to stop watching it as opposed to gradually growing out of it.

*Luckyday* · 11-14-2020, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

Not even close.

I honestly think it can if this franchise just allowed itself to have more post shredder material that is telling a story rather then this one shot fragmented feel of the guest book era or keep remaking the same thing over and over again.

~~Leo656~~ · 11-14-2020, 05:57 PM

The biggest thing holding it back is simply that it's pigeonholed as a "Kids' Thing". And the people in charge of it have no real interest in letting it grow beyond that. Sure, they get loose with the comics once in a great while, but when it comes to toys, TV shows, and movies, it's Kiddie Town all the way. And that's the stuff the mainstream sees. Figuratively nobody reads comic books.

Batman didn't become a cultural institution until stuff like DKR and the 1989 movie happened. The movie was what really nailed it (because again, the impact of a movie is much greater than that of a comic book). Before the film, in spite of stuff like DKR and Robin being killed in the comic books, the Batman character was still thought of as a kiddie cartoon by most people. That film is what solidified in peoples' minds that it could also be something adults could take seriously and enjoy.

TMNT almost had that with their own movie around the same time, BUT it still had some of the lingering camp elements from the cartoon show attached to it, and since then nobody has ever even really tried to do a "grown-up" version of TMNT. For it to have the same effect as the Batman '89 movie did for that character, a TMNT movie would have to by this point be in the vein of "Batman Begins". In other words, NO humor at all, the characters and premise being taken absolutely seriously and the entire thing treated like "a real movie" and not a way to sell toys.

Until that happens, there's NO chance of TMNT growing out of the "Kiddie Ghetto". And likewise, its chances of being a true "evergreen" property are pretty slim.

It probably won't ever happen, due to people's overwhelming insistence that the entire premise is too ridiculous and therefore TMNT belongs strictly in "funny animal" territory. There's a much bigger uphill battle to fight than something like Batman had.

11-12-2020, 09:27 PM	#24
IMJ Emperor Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Midwest, U.S.A. Posts: 8,888	Exactly. And look at the direction of humor in cartoons? It's all about bringing a joke to bear that empowers the center of the show at the expense of another show character as a reflection of the empowerment. Distill that down. The lesson is that "you are better than other people who challenge you, so put them in their place". That's the distillation of it. It's basically a direction of humor that reinforces ego and arrogance and does so essentially through bullying examples. But we laugh when we watch it because it's parlayed as the joke. But it also informs societal direction. I mean this isn't a podium I'd launch a criticism and hard argument from, but it's more of a sociological observation about the current zeitgeist that I definitely believe is reflective of the times. Arrogance. Personal ego. And no long avenues of respect. Instead it's about demanding respect in the face of oppression when it should be examples of respect in diverse team building. It's a message of conflict to kids from a generation who all got trophies as kids. You can see how f'd up the message becomes. __________________ Wave 1 Collectibles Online Market Watch Blog Collection Photography

11-12-2020, 04:48 PM	#21
Mewzard Hench Mutant Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 255	While I was born in the 80s, I was born after the 87 Cartoon started, so I don't know if my early 30s ass counts for "Older Fan" in this scenario, lol. It wouldn't have effected me at all, given my oldest TMNT memory is watching the 1990 movie, which had a big impact in what I wanted out of my TMNT (and probably why Mirage Volume 1 struck such a chord with me, given the first movie took a lot from the early issues). But while I haven't watched a large chunk of Rise, what I did see I enjoyed, and probably would have enjoyed back in the early 90s where my memories of things start coming together.

11-12-2020, 10:05 PM	#25
Groverman62 Foot Soldier Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Thats Classified Posts: 114	Not disagreeing with the points Aren't participation trophies something the generation before us came up with?

11-12-2020, 11:27 PM	#27
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,880	I get the feeling Rise was purposely made so different because it came only a year after the Nick 2012 series ended and they didn't want to do another "standard" TMNT cartoon all over again after Nick had rebooted the series. So in that regard I can see why they went crazy with it and just did their own thing, it was way too soon for another TMNT cartoon as the kids who grew up with the 2012 series were just barely aging out of the demographic.

11-12-2020, 11:45 PM	#28
LeotheLateBloomer Foot Elite Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 3,117	If I'm being frank, I don't feel TMNT is popular enough as Batman or Spiderman to where they can radically experiment with it yet (which is partially why so many people were so antagonistic or apathetic towards Rise, myself included). For one, it'd help if casual fans at the very least familiarize themselves with some aspects of the comics like stuff with April's origin or City at War. I say "familiarize" because I know some people don't read comics despite learning about stories such as Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall, The Death of Superman, The Night Gwen Stacy Died, etc. I'm hoping The Last Ronin picks up some steam or makes some waves.

11-13-2020, 07:46 AM	#29
MrPliggins Foot Elite Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3,051	Interesting question to consider. I haven't seen a second of Rise, but seeing the artwork and designs, I have little to no interest. But that's as a 40+ year old adult. I discovered TMNT at age 10, and I just might have liked it at that point.

11-14-2020, 10:22 AM	#31
ssjup81 Foot Elite Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Central Virginia (Back in the US) Posts: 4,734	I've never seen Rise, so can't really say based on that. The main reason I never watched it is for a superficial one. I hate that style of art and seems it would be a bit too silly for my tastes, but as mentioned, I really don't know and can't say one way or the other. I'm also viewing it from the point of view of a nearly 40-year-old woman, not as a 7-year-old child. With the original show, I first watched it while it was still syndicated, but not when the pilot aired and saw those eps later on in reruns. Kids at school were talking about the show (along with stuff like Alf lol) so I checked it out. I'm pretty sure I didn't start watching until 1988 or sometime after the pilot in '87. Since I didn't start with the pilot, I probably still would've watched it...but I probably would've stopped watching it after a while too once about 10 or so, maybe if it was aimed at a much younger audience. For me, I watched up until CBS stopped airing Saturday morning programs in the earlier part of the 90s for my area. The shows were always pre-empted to show junk like Martha Stewart. The only way I could watch it, was through the ones they'd air on the USA Cartoon Express and I didn't even know of the season change to the Red Sky Arc until I visited my aunt one weekend (she lived in another city) and for her, CBS still aired Saturday morning kids shows. I was just so glad to watch the show again on CBS because I was forced to stop watching it as opposed to gradually growing out of it.

11-14-2020, 05:57 PM	#33
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	The biggest thing holding it back is simply that it's pigeonholed as a "Kids' Thing". And the people in charge of it have no real interest in letting it grow beyond that. Sure, they get loose with the comics once in a great while, but when it comes to toys, TV shows, and movies, it's Kiddie Town all the way. And that's the stuff the mainstream sees. Figuratively nobody reads comic books. Batman didn't become a cultural institution until stuff like DKR and the 1989 movie happened. The movie was what really nailed it (because again, the impact of a movie is much greater than that of a comic book). Before the film, in spite of stuff like DKR and Robin being killed in the comic books, the Batman character was still thought of as a kiddie cartoon by most people. That film is what solidified in peoples' minds that it could also be something adults could take seriously and enjoy. TMNT almost had that with their own movie around the same time, BUT it still had some of the lingering camp elements from the cartoon show attached to it, and since then nobody has ever even really tried to do a "grown-up" version of TMNT. For it to have the same effect as the Batman '89 movie did for that character, a TMNT movie would have to by this point be in the vein of "Batman Begins". In other words, NO humor at all, the characters and premise being taken absolutely seriously and the entire thing treated like "a real movie" and not a way to sell toys. Until that happens, there's NO chance of TMNT growing out of the "Kiddie Ghetto". And likewise, its chances of being a true "evergreen" property are pretty slim. It probably won't ever happen, due to people's overwhelming insistence that the entire premise is too ridiculous and therefore TMNT belongs strictly in "funny animal" territory. There's a much bigger uphill battle to fight than something like Batman had.