Ocarina of Time... what do you think of this game 24 years later?

[Prowler]

I don't have any modern Sony consoles...

Anyway, the remastered versions of FFVIII and FFIX are available on the Switch. VII's isn't. It's just the original ported.

Anyway the 3 of them are sold cheaply on the Nintendo eshop and even cheaper when they're on sale. It's only a matter of time until I finally get them.

Itndirs seem like 7 gets all the love form the PS1 FF games. Okay, 8 seems to get some appreciation as well but 9 seems to get rarely talked about.

I feel like the most talked FF games after 7 are 6 and 10. But maybe that's just my impression.

[Leo656]

To me, it always felt like Final Fantasy IX got lost in the shuffle partly because they went back to an "old school" JRPG aesthetic after VII and VIII were both much more futuristic.

It got great reviews, but not a lot of press or advertising, and I'd be shocked if it sold all that well compared to its predecessors. I remember that it was a divisive choice of aesthetic when it came out; some people found it quaint, others just felt like it was a step backwards.

I still need to get around to that one, too.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

The biggest gripe about FF9 that I have is that abilities come from weapons and the best weapons are usually stolen from boss battles. So every boss battle was just me attempting to steal then missing over and over while the boss attacks and I'm trying not to kill it. I remember the boss battles taking forever because of this. The rest of the game was ok.

[Prowler]

I see. I guess that explains it.

When did Final Fantasy began losing steam BTW? It seems like people generally haven't cared as much about the latest ones and would rather play remakes and remasters of 90s ones and X.

I mean I'm sure they still sell very well, but the franchise no longer is taking the world by storm like it did back in the PS1 era, I feel. Nintendo is no longer suffering for not having modern day Final Fantasy games on their systems.

I can't tel you anything about the series after X. And that was the first game of the series for the PS2! It's about 20 years at this point.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Prowler

I see. I guess that explains it.

When did Final Fantasy began losing steam BTW? It seems like people generally haven't cared as much about the latest ones and would rather play remakes and remasters of 90s ones and X.

Ironically, right there. Final Fantasy X. That's when they largely abandoned open world with tons of sidequests and this and that. You know, the ability to hop in an airship and pilot it around a map, going wherever you want (poof, gone). FFX is when "go down a tight corridor from one point A to point B, then do it again" with big expensive FMV stuff became the norm with FF, and that's when it died a little bit. And boy did FF XIII and FF XV double-down on that. FF XV is even worse in that it teases you with open world in your face but it is just the illusion of that.

Fortunately FFX's story was pretty neat, so there's that. But FF definitely stopped being a thing you could lose yourself in exploring right then and there and became music videos you only somewhat control. It's really unfortunate. Since FF7 you can see Square itching to make the Final Fantasy series more and more like an interactive anime movie or music video, which as a fan of FF 1-6, couldn't be further from the direction I'd prefer to see them go. Square finally had their dream come true with FF XV and nobody showed up for it. FF XVI looks like more of the same, just with a Game of Thrones flavor and maybe the emo dialed back a smidge.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Ironically, right there. Final Fantasy X. That's when they largely abandoned open world with tons of sidequests and this and that. You know, the ability to hop in an airship and pilot it around a map, going wherever you want (poof, gone). FFX is when "go down a tight corridor from one point A to point B, then do it again" with big expensive FMV stuff became the norm with FF, and that's when it died a little bit. And boy did FF XIII and FF XV double-down on that. FF XV is even worse in that it teases you with open world in your face but it is just the illusion of that.

Fortunately FFX's story was pretty neat, so there's that. But FF definitely stopped being a thing you could lose yourself in exploring right then and there and became music videos you only somewhat control. It's really unfortunate. Since FF7 you can see Square itching to make the Final Fantasy series more and more like an interactive movie, which as a fan of FF 1-6, couldn't be further from the direction I'd prefer to see them go. Square finally had their dream come true with FF XV and nobody showed up for it. FF XVI looks like more of the same, just with a Game of Thrones flavor and maybe the emo dialed back a smidge.

So that's why FFX, while popular, is also somewhat of a mixed bag among Final Fantasy fans? They mostly complain about Tidus and the cast of characters though.

I don't care much for Tidus or Yuna. But I like Auron and Lulu. Don't mind Rikku either. Khimari and Wakka are fine for what they are as well.

Ever played X-2? It comes with the X HD remaster with a download code. I haven't tackled it yet. From what I understand it only has Yuna and Rikku from X and has some new character which is a punk rock looking chick? Also I know it has Blitzball still. But are there any significant diffetences between it and X? Is it set in the same map?

Btw what about FF 12? What do you think of that one?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Prowler

So that's why FFX, while popular, is also somewhat of a mixed bag among Final Fantasy fans?

Basically FFX is where Final Fantasy stopped being Final Fantasy. And mostly that's on the gameplay/freedoms/world side of things. And I remember FFX being very unpopular at the time in the then-existing fandom. I'm sure there's a new fandom that grew up playing FFX that sing a different tune.

They mostly complain about Tidus and the cast of characters though.

I don't care much for Tidus or Yuna. But I like Auron and Lulu. Don't mind Rikku either. Khimari and Wakka are fine for what they are as well.

Well, we can get into the ongoing feminizing of the male leads that kind of has a certain trajectory beginning maybe with FF IX into FF XV. That's probably taken a toll on your average male gamer wanting to play them.

Ever played X-2? It comes with the X HD remaster with a download code. I haven't tackled it yet. From what I understand it only has Yuna and Rikku from X and has some new character which is a punk rock looking chick? Also I know it has Blitzball still. But are there any significant diffetences between it and X? Is it set in the same map?

Yeah, I've played through X-2. Definitely add that to the "guilty pleasure" pile. I enjoyed the gameplay and how you can switch jobs on the fly though it had an embarrassingly easy final boss. I wouldn't have minded an X-3.

Btw what about FF 12? What do you think of that one?

XII is actually an anomaly in X-XV in that DOES have an open world and a lot of side quests. The bad: people used to complain that Tidus looks like Meg Ryan, but the main character in XII might as well be her twin in a belly shirt. Too many characters and way too much world-building going on in short spans of time. The heart was in the right place but I couldn't get all that interested in it. It plays like a single player mode of like a massively multiplayer online game, if that makes sense. Something isn't right there.

[Prowler]

Yes, X was the first Final Fantasy game of people whose first console was the PS2.

It was also my first ever Final Fantasy game but I was already 18 or so when I first played it and I also got a PS2 a bit late(2005). Since I didn't have a PS1 naturally there were no Final Fantasy games for me to play in the late 90s.

Yes Tidus is very effeminate looking. I was never a fan of the bishounen androgeneous look for male characters in anime, manga and games. Usually that stays in shoujo which is works that target female audiences, but a series like Final Fantasy doing that seems bizarre. Did they do it to get more female fans or something?

Anyway I spent like 150-200 hours on the FFX HD remaster on the Switch back in 2020. I'm sure 30% of my gameplay time was Blitzball though. I must have played about 15 full leagues with it. In the last 5 championships I won, Brother and Wakka were now scoring more than Tidus. Brother... holy hell, he can score 7 goals per match right after the kick off. So many goals from the middle of the stage I scored with him.

I'm a big football fan, so that's why I enjoy Blitzball. But I know plenty of Final Fantasy fans hate that minigame. If I wasn't a fan of the real life sport it's based on, I probably wouldn't have liked it either.

Definitely a top 5 RPG minigame of all time. What are the minigames like in other Final Fantasy games?

Anyway FFX has very good gameplay and mechanics. I really liked the XP and ability grid map it had. It's funny how Khimari eventually ended up being my strongest character instead of Auron though.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

To me, it always felt like Final Fantasy IX got lost in the shuffle partly because they went back to an "old school" JRPG aesthetic after VII and VIII were both much more futuristic.

That and the "big head, little feet" aesthetic. And the main character has a cat tail.

FF IX was pretty great, though. A pretty pleasing storyline.

Originally Posted by Prowler

Yes Tidus is very effeminate looking. I was never a fan of the bishounen androgeneous look for male characters in anime, manga and games. Usually that stays in shoujo which is works that target female audiences, but a series like Final Fantasy doing that seems bizarre.

With Tidus it isn't just the look, either. He is constantly whining and moaning about everything under the sun.

Did they do it to get more female fans or something?

Or the creators living out their fantasies. Who knows.

Anyway FFX has very good gameplay and mechanics. I really liked the XP and ability grid map it had. It's funny how Khimari eventually ended up being my strongest character instead of Auron though.

I was always partial to Auron.

[Leo656]

Yeah, I do remember them saying that a big goal of FFX was to get more girls into the franchise, and X2 was obviously an extension of that. It does seem to have worked, to a degree.

I definitely remember FFX being a big fracture point for the fans of the series, despite its general popularity. Definitely the start of, "It's a very good game... it just doesn't feel like Final Fantasy", which has more or less been the case to a degree with every subsequent FF game. Again, X2 pretty much doubled down; a lot of people found it fun, but they were outspoken that it pretty much wasn't even a Final Fantasy game at all. This was partly on purpose, since as the first sequel/spin-off game in the series the developers felt like it was a good place to experiment. It did well, but it had people pretty split,

Some of my friends take Final Fantasy pretty seriously, so whenever a new game comes out and they start talking about it (usually negatively), I'm like, "I understand if it's 'not a Final Fantasy' game... but is it at least a GOOD game, otherwise?" Because I totally understand why people get hung up on what's "proper" for a game, or what a band should sound like, or whatever... "This is NOTHING like _______!" and so on. But at the end of the day, if I'm entertained and enjoy it, I usually don't care as much if it breaks from tradition.

Usually most of them will be like, "I mean, technically, yeah, it's good. It's just not Final Fantasy at all." And that's fair, but in such case I will still make it a point to play the game at some point. If it's a good game, I want to play it.

I really gotta get back to FFX again, I got the X/X2 collection a while back I just didn't start it. Way back when it came out for PS2 I started it, but then I got distracted. I was definitely having fun with it, though.
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Perhaps I or one of us should start a General RPG thread to continue this conversation? Just a thought. I'm having fun but we lost the Ocarina of Time plot pretty quickly and I'd hate to drop either conversation.

[Prowler]

Well, I dunno what else to say about OOT. Does anyone have anything else to add regarding the game?

[Leo656]

I still remember the very first screenshots of "Zelda 64" in the magazines, pictures of what turned out to be more or less just a proof-of-concept demo and had no resemblance to what OoT would eventually turn out to be. Even then, though... there was this feeling of excitement about it. The actual game took years to come out and did not look anything like those screenshots, but I remember how excited people were. No matter how much people complained about how thin the N64 lineup was - much of that completely justified - you'd just be like, "Yeah, but... Zelda 64 is coming!" And that just superseded everything else.

I remember how much people were bewildered and even a bit concerned about how exactly a Zelda game, of all things, would work in 3D. Some people were convinced that it wouldn't work, especially because of the combat. Now sure, one way they worked around any issues with the combat was to barely have too many enemies onscreen at the same time, so you rarely ever got swarmed the way you did in the NES and SNES games. But the Z-targeting was just SO essential, and it really changed action games forever overnight. Such a little thing, but it had every other developer who was working on a 3D action game at the time go, "Holy sh*t, why didn't WE think of that?!"

And then that huge Preview cover story in Electronic Gaming Monthly. That just completely sealed the deal. Pages and pages of screenshots, in-depth descriptions about the first few hours of gameplay, talk about the controls and how intuitive the entire experience was... they even put over the fishing game huge, and that was one of the things people were the most befuddled by when they heard about its inclusion. "A f*cking FISHING game? Are they for real?" But that article just made every single thing about the game sound so amazing; I wasn't even a "fan" of the series, per se, but I went from "Eh, maybe" to "I'm pre-ordering this tomorrow" very quickly.

The whole thing was basically like, "We know some people aren't sure how Zelda will work in 3D. But guys... this is seriously the best game ever made, and here's why." And they'd only played like the first couple of hours of it, but even THAT was enough to make me believe it was indeed the greatest thing ever. And when I finally played it... yeah, it kinda was that. Other games superseded it very quickly, because the late-90s was an amazing time for innovation in gaming and so many all-time classics were coming out at a rapid-fire clip... but for a minute, you could very much say that Ocarina of Time was simply the best console video game ever made and not too many people would argue with you.

Even the strategy guides were awesome. I kind of collect strategy guides, I just think they're neat even when I don't need them, so I have a lot of them. And I have a few different ones for OoT and the other Zelda games (for one thing, a lot of them came with AWESOME posters! ). The ones from Nintendo were always fun, because they were presented like an in-universe storybook chronicling the various adventures of Link. Rather than just explain to you plainly what to do, they'd be like, "Legend has it that Link went here and did this in order to proceed," and it was just a neat little way to add to the immersion. They also expanded quite a bit on the lore and mythology, covering stuff the games themselves never mentioned, such as reasoning behind the various fashions worn by the different races of people in Hyrule, what the weather was like in different parts of the world, all that stuff. There was even an in-depth guide on playing the Ocarina and how to come up with your own songs using the notes. Pretty wild.

So yeah, it doesn't all hit me at once but I definitely have a lot of memories and things to say about this game.

[Prowler]

I was too young to be afraid of 3D Zelda going wrong. Fortunately, all Nintendo properties transitioned well into 3D. The only one you can argue didn't was Donkey Kong, but even saying that, I did enjoy Donkey Kong 64 back in the day. Would love to see them making a new 3D DK game sometime again. Plus, back then the DK games were made by Rare. Rare is no longer under Nintendo. Hasn't been so since the GameCube days.

[Andrew NDB]

OoT was probably the last "pure" Zelda game. After that they kind of got to be all about some kind of gimmick or another.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

OoT was probably the last "pure" Zelda game. After that they kind of got to be all about some kind of gimmick or another.

Wouldn't using the ocarina to travel through the world map, change the weather to rainy, turning night into day instantly and solving dungeon puzzles also qualify as being a gimmick? Wind Waker doesn't sound more gimmicky with the changing the direction of the wind feature.

BOTW is about some kind of gimmick or another? Weapons breaking counts? Besides that, what else is gimmicky about it?

Speaking of which, I really like BOTW, but I'm not ready for the idea of it bricking the standard for Zelda games from now on...

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

OoT was probably the last "pure" Zelda game. After that they kind of got to be all about some kind of gimmick or another.

Not since Breath of the Wild anyway, which is pretty much the new benchmark for the series.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Turo602

Not since Breath of the Wild anyway, which is pretty much the new benchmark for the series.

I wonder what the sequel is going to be like. It's the same map again but this time with no shrines? How's that gonna work out?

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by Prowler

I wonder what the sequel is going to be like. It's the same map again but this time with no shrines? How's that gonna work out?

It's the same map, but they have been expanding it beyond just the new sky stuff. I don't think they ever confirmed there'd be no shrines, though I'm sure whatever they're doing with the sky will be its answer to them and how you'll fast travel. But I wouldn't expect the overworld to be identical either. I'm sure they've found many ways to alter the land after this much time.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Turo602

It's the same map, but they have been expanding it beyond just the new sky stuff. I don't think they ever confirmed there'd be no shrines, though I'm sure whatever they're doing with the sky will be its answer to them and how you'll fast travel. But I wouldn't expect the overworld to be identical either. I'm sure they've found many ways to alter the land after this much time.

I think they should simply do something similar to what they did with Majora's Mask. Same engine and graphics as Ocarina but set in an alternative dimension of Hyrule.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by Prowler

I think they should simply do something similar to what they did with Majora's Mask. Same engine and graphics as Ocarina but set in an alternative dimension of Hyrule.

I don't think that would be necessary. Breath of the Wild already created such a rich and lore filled world that pulls from all over the series' history that shifting it to another dimension would be a huge disservice to its story. They've planted too many seeds to do another Majora's Mask, which itself was hastily put together.