Are comic books basically just published fanfiction these days?

[CyberCubed]

I mean that's the thing, we're now 30+ years later so now all the "fans" and "kid audience" are now the ones in the industry writing comics, TV shows and movies. We've gotten to the point where everyone in our generation (30-40+ year olds) were the original target audience 30 years ago, and the ones who are now in the industry are doing the writing.

So in other words, everything is written by fans now. It's basically like fanfiction.

[IMJ]

I think it's the quality and establishment of "character" that qualifies that criticism or invalidates it.

Comic books, over the last ten years or so, have practically been a parody of everything that came before it. You have traumatized weirdos writing comics with blunt-force messaging, lacking in all articulation or nuance that came with previous "commentary" decades before.

Star Trek is a TREMENDOUS example of this that clown-world supporters typically disregard when they rely on the "Trek was ALWAYS progressive" defense.

And I see a lot of fan-fic levels in modern movies - especially direct to Netflix or Direct to Amazon material. Elements where a writer has a grand idea about a character but just implies it and goes on with the "cliche brilliance" without and true depth of execution or any true moment that makes you "care" about the character over the "assumption that the character is xyz...".

There's a ton of professional fan fic going around. Hell, even that new "War Machine" netflix movie, which was a lot of fun to watch was still entirely derivative. Not "influenced by", but "derived from"....

[ToTheNines]

Another poetic rant from IMJ haha. Well said!

At this point, all IP fiction is fan-fiction. It’s just a matter of whether it’s good or not.

To keep it in a TMNT perspective, consider early Mirage. Pretty much everyone Kevin and Peter brought in was a fan of their work beforehand. But they were essentially the editors and put their stamp of approval on it, so no one really thinks twice about it.

Fastforward to 2002. More than half of Tales Vol. 2 was written by Murphy/Lawson/Berger, but the rest of the creatives were definitely fans that got their foot in the door. Some stinkers in there, but still published under Mirage so that’s a huge token of legitimacy.

Now? I don’t really accept most of the crap IDW tries to pass off as Mirage canon. But I do consider the Turtles Club stuff canon.

But something can still be good and not pass the “canon test”. I love Saturday Morning Adventures and look forward to it every month, but it’s just not in the actual FW continuity and I don’t care what anyone says.

[IMJ]

Thank you, thank you, I do what I can.

In some circles it's applauded or bare minimum, understood even if disputed.

In the lowest of circles it's like being surrounded by grammar-school pukes who hate you for your insight, yet circle around to listen to every word you have to say. But then they follow it up by intentionally withholding normalized discussion so as to project their autistic-disdain while firmly pressing their lips into a teeny tiny frowny shape.

You're the first circle. Many others here are the second circle.

[TheLabRat]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Now? I don’t really accept most of the crap IDW tries to pass off as Mirage canon.

I don't like they Introduce unnecessary characters from other series just to said, "Hey! Do you remember these character?" For example, Cobra King, even in Mirage comic, this character is just background character. If they bring this character into IDW Shredder new comic series, then at least this character should become one of Shredder's main rival and cause him a lot of trouble, rather than just cheaply showcasing Shredder's power.

[ToTheNines]

I’m fine with them doing an IDW version of any imaginable character, but yes that was cringe.

Why dig that character out of relative obscurity only to dunk on him?

[Jephael]

I don't care if this is gonna fall on deaf ears or not, but in all honesty, I've come to detest the term "canon". The TMNT get re-written and rebooted all the time, just like Batman, Spider-Man and every other comic book/animated property out there! It's just meant to be fun entertainment. Quit taking it so damn seriously!

[Smithguy789]

Originally Posted by Jephael

I don't care if this is gonna fall on deaf ears or not, but in all honesty, I've come to detest the term "canon". The TMNT get re-written and rebooted all the time, just like Batman, Spider-Man and every other comic book/animated property out there! It's just meant to be fun entertainment. Quit taking it so damn seriously!

This right here. I used to be a die-hard 'Canon vs noncanon' kind of fan and I just got tired of it. I don't need a corporation to tell me what "counts." I'll decide what counts for me, regardless how it fits with other stories.

[ToTheNines]

Well everything is different. Usagi Yojimbo is basically all Stan Sakai, so whatever he says goes, in my book. Mirage TMNT was always more of a collaboration, so there is a lot of grey area. Some of it is based on legal crap, which is lame. So when Peter declared “The River” non-canon, I just ignored that.

If IDW can tell good Mirage stories, I’m open to it. But so far Batman/TMNT III and Battle Nexus haven’t been worthy, in my book.

I did like the Stranger Things crossover though.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Something something "Take what you like, ignore the rest" etc.

But more seriously, "canon" vs "noncanon" will and always has been important because you need a baseline to be able to actually talk about and engage with a story, especially one that develops sequentially. ANY story. If there isn't a baseline of what did or didn't happen, it very quickly becomes impossible to talk about a story in any meaningful way. If everything happens, then nothing happens.

[ToTheNines]

I don't know what's wrong with you young people. You think you just fell out of a coconut tree?

You exist in the context of all in which you live and what came before you.

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Something something "Take what you like, ignore the rest" etc.

But more seriously, "canon" vs "noncanon" will and always has been important because you need a baseline to be able to actually talk about and engage with a story, especially one that develops sequentially. ANY story. If there isn't a baseline of what did or didn't happen, it very quickly becomes impossible to talk about a story in any meaningful way. If everything happens, then nothing happens.

Agreed, as per usual. Otherwise there’s no point in an ongoing narrative, and you might as well make it an anthology series if you’re just completely disregarding canon.

[Barkworm]

But that‘s the problem with all things non-creator-owned: Who decides what is canon and what is not? And how much can the concept of a canon matter if plot elements can just be retconned on a whim?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by IMJ

Star Trek is a TREMENDOUS example of this that clown-world supporters typically disregard when they rely on the "Trek was ALWAYS progressive" defense.

Don't even get me started on those fu**tards...

Trek has always been progressive-ish, sure... but up until Kurtzman came into the picture Trek had also never been written at about a 6th grade level of quality by people who hate Trek.

Originally Posted by Barkworm

But that‘s the problem with all things non-creator-owned: Who decides what is canon and what is not? And how much can the concept of a canon matter if plot elements can just be retconned on a whim?

All good questions. Relevant more than ever since nowadays we have editors who don't even really do their job and gatekeep continuity.

[Smithguy789]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Something something "Take what you like, ignore the rest" etc.

But more seriously, "canon" vs "noncanon" will and always has been important because you need a baseline to be able to actually talk about and engage with a story, especially one that develops sequentially. ANY story. If there isn't a baseline of what did or didn't happen, it very quickly becomes impossible to talk about a story in any meaningful way. If everything happens, then nothing happens.

I'm going off my own experiences and perceptions here, but it seems to me like Canon DID mean something until it became part of how the mainstream engages with art. Take Star Trek (since others were talking about it), when I got into Trek, none of the novels/comics were canon, and the animated series was dubious. And in my experience, people accepted that and moved on and engaged with what they wanted to.

But now? I hear/read people say "don't watch that, it's not canon" or "that's not canon dont waste your time reading it" or "canon episode lists" for anime, like canon is a universal arbiter of quality (which it ain't).

All that to say (and I know how hipster it sounds, but whatever), canon meant something when only nerds knew what it meant. Now the normies know and use it to tell others what to engage with, and it no longer has any meaning.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Barkworm

But that‘s the problem with all things non-creator-owned: Who decides what is canon and what is not?

In general, whoever is actively telling the ongoing narrative at the time. But ultimately, the reader.

I guess a creator could reveal game-changing information about the story years later, but really a body of work speaks for itself once production has stopped. At which point it’s up to the individual to imagine what happens after the final scene.

And how much can the concept of a canon matter if plot elements can just be retconned on a whim?

This is mostly a problem with comics more than any other medium. Anything can be retconned, and readers/viewers can take it or leave it. I think more often than not, they accept it and move on. But if you’re abusing it, you’ll lose the audience.

But yeah, this is precisely why a lot of people don’t bother with DC/Marvel any more.

Originally Posted by Smithguy789

or "canon episode lists" for anime, like canon is a universal arbiter of quality (which it ain't).

I strongly agree, but I can give people the benefit of the doubt there and assume they’re trying to help people not waste their time.

Perfect TMNT example: anyone here remember IDW’s “Infestation 2: TMNT” by Tristan Jones? To this day, still one of the best original stories they’ve put out. But even though they were being cute about it back in 2012, it’s definitely not canon. So if someone was wanting to read all of the IDW run starting at the very beginning, that is a daunting task. As much as I like Infestation 2, I would recommend they skip it if they’re just starting out, but only because you have like 400 other comics the get through lol.

I would also throw out Conspiracy, Deviations, 20/20, Batman crossovers, When/Where, and anything else in that zone.

[Barkworm]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

In general, whoever is actively telling the ongoing narrative at the time. But ultimately, the reader.

Which brings us back to the thread title!

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

This is mostly a problem with comics more than any other medium. Anything can be retconned, and readers/viewers can take it or leave it. I think more often than not, they accept it and move on. But if you’re abusing it, you’ll lose the audience.

That's kinda why I don't care whenever there's a video or article about some epic event or death that happened in anything but the mainline comic. Who cares if Absolute Batman or Ultimate Spider-Man or whoever flips out and suddenly snaps the neck of their arch nemesis cause they pushed them one more time. Unless it happens in the canon comics, who cares. And even then.... it might get retconned or rebooted away in a few years anyway.

[frank_one]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

This is mostly a problem with comics more than any other medium. Anything can be retconned, and readers/viewers can take it or leave it. I think more often than not, they accept it and move on. But if you’re abusing it, you’ll lose the audience.

But yeah, this is precisely why a lot of people don’t bother with DC/Marvel any more.

I agree. All they do is killing and resurrecting the same characters and when they have no more ideas they start to play with alternate universes. It's all trash. That's what IDW has been doing with the Turtles for years as well. Not for me.

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Barkworm

Which brings us back to the thread title!

Ha, yeah. And my final answer is: who cares as long as it’s good?

They haven’t gone crazy with it, but I’m beyond hesitant to take anything IDW does with the Mirage continuity seriously when they only bust it out on special occasions. (What’s stopping them from hiring Tristan, Lawson or Berger to tell more stories?)

Whereas Andrew and Arseniy’s stuff is fan-fiction, by definition. But they hire Mirage artists and they’ve done their homework (obviously lol). They take a while between releases since they have their jobs and whatnot, but they’re the ones telling the ongoing Mirage and Archie narratives while no one else is.

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

That's kinda why I don't care whenever there's a video or article about some epic event or death that happened in anything but the mainline comic. Who cares if Absolute Batman or Ultimate Spider-Man or whoever flips out and suddenly snaps the neck of their arch nemesis cause they pushed them one more time. Unless it happens in the canon comics, who cares. And even then.... it might get retconned or rebooted away in a few years anyway.

Right. I keep them at arm’s length. Basically I only check anything out if I hear it’s good, and even then I wait until the whole run is over and confirm it gets a decent ending before wasting my time. It’s not worth it otherwise.

Originally Posted by frank_one

I agree. All they do is killing and resurrecting the same characters and when they have no more ideas they start to play with alternate universes. It's all trash. That's what IDW has been doing with the Turtles for years as well. Not for me.

Yeah, they’re actively trying to turn it into a DC book.

[Barkworm]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Ha, yeah. And my final answer is: who cares as long as it’s good?

In principle, sure. A good story should be able to stand on its own.

But on the other hand, if you get invested in fiction, you need some emotional weight behind it and the sense of consequence. Both will be dramatically diminished if you get the feeling that the people in charge of canonizing story elements don‘t take things seriously that had an impact on you. And that‘s when your enjoyment of something can decrease retrospectively.

Or does anyone still enjoy the original Star Wars Trilogy as much as when you first watched it?