FAQ for the Image/Mirage Volume 4 - Page 2

*heretic888* · 02-19-2004, 10:22 AM

No offense, Karpo, but Straight-Edge has a very valid point here.

And, while I think the overall plot in Volume 4 easily outshines Larsen's stint with the TMNT, in my opinion the character portrayal and character development was done much better in Image.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, its my suspicion that Laird was the "plot man" of the duo and Eastman was the "character man". Just my opinion, of course.

**Karpo_007** · 02-19-2004, 10:49 AM

So do you think Laird should have continued Image storry line then?

*heretic888* · 02-19-2004, 11:13 AM

No. I think Laird should do what Laird wants to do.

If you force an artist to arbitrarily conform to some external standard you set up, then there's only one result: crap.

All great art comes from the individual doing what he or she truly wants to do, not just doing what is convenient or popular.

However, *if it was me*, I would have tried to "clean up" the loose ends at the end of the Image run. I do think there was some worthwhile elements that was developed in that series that would be worth preserving.

Of course, I can understand why Laird did what he did, too.

Ultimately, its his creation and his decision. Who's to say he's wrong??

*Kid Icarus* · 02-19-2004, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karpo_007

Why not? Image was very different from Mirage, weather you like it or not. When Laird decided to continue the story, why should he continue something that a writer outside Mirage wrote? Of course he likes to continue the story he has been tellling since 1984.

As for why people accept Laird's decisions over Larssons, simple. He is co-creator of the TMNT, not an outsider.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Laird give the go-ahead for Image to make vol 3? And in that case, dosent that mean, in a sense, that they were brought in to the little Mirage group? Not made an integrel part of, of course, but a limb if you will.

And if Laird really hated it that much, why didn't he write it off as a side story that never happend, making the current vol. 4 in to vol. 3?

~~Jarrah White~~ · 02-19-2004, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Straight-Edge

Two points to make:

Laird and fans slam the Image title for its over-the-top-ness, and I suspect most have never actually read the Image series.

Splinter was mutated into a Bat... and healed, ina 12 issue span. But Issue #17, he was good old rat-sensei again. Raph joined the Foot as Shredder for a sum total of 11 issues. By the last issue, he was tied up and hated by the clan, and the rest of the turtle gang had to save him. Pimiko, Shredder's daughter joined u with the turtles, while Lady Shredder took over the Foot clan, making the old rivalry legitimate again.

The turtles' injuries were to be healed by the unstable mutagen that created them (it was affecting Leatherhead during the Triceraton war arc), but the book didn't last long enough.

So the things you hated about the book were plots only, not permanent changes to the mythos. The only changes to the actual mythos, beyond character development (which is a good thing) was the reinstating of the war between the turtles and the Foot clan.

To be quite honest, even at this late date, Laird could squeeze Vol 3 into the Mirage mythos quite easily, by citing that unfnished arc about the mutagen healing the turtles, which pretty much returns the turtles to a status quo that's much more in line with Vol 4.

Second, why is it thatwhat Image did is hated, but what Laird is doing, tho similar, is revered?

Turtle falling out of a helicopter? In Image, it lead to the total revolution of Don's character! In Mirage, it led to Mikey discovering the Superhero Hospital..

Turtles taking a trip through a dinosaur exhibit in a museum? In Image, Don's on the run from Triceratons trying to take over the world! In Mirage, Mikey's taking an uppity Saurian Princess on a tour of the planet.

Splinter needs a new dynamic? In Image, he becomes a bat, plagues and terrorizes cities, is healed, then has to reflect and repent for sins he's really not responsible for committing! In Mirage, he's killed off.

I just think too many people, Laird included, are writing off a viable and rich chapter in Turtle's history (a superhero-equivalent of the changes we go through in the interim between high school kid and actual adult). Its symbolic of a big change in the turtles, that is reflected in their adult actions in Vol 4, but the events that caused that change are being ignored??

I really think Laird should just retcon it in, say that they were healed, and let it be. As a piece of literature, the turtles' mythos reads rather sparsely already. Why take away 23 issues *dedicated* to making them adults, which actually *enhances* the stories being told now, without contradicting them?

Maybe a prequil to Volume 4 issue 1 should be written...

**Karpo_007** · 02-19-2004, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwgtrunks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karpo_007

Why not? Image was very different from Mirage, weather you like it or not. When Laird decided to continue the story, why should he continue something that a writer outside Mirage wrote? Of course he likes to continue the story he has been tellling since 1984.

As for why people accept Laird's decisions over Larssons, simple. He is co-creator of the TMNT, not an outsider.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Laird give the go-ahead for Image to make vol 3? And in that case, dosent that mean, in a sense, that they were brought in to the little Mirage group? Not made an integrel part of, of course, but a limb if you will.

And if Laird really hated it that much, why didn't he write it off as a side story that never happend, making the current vol. 4 in to vol. 3?

E/L gave the permission, yes but they had no input with the stories, unlike in official Mirage volumes. And I do not believe Laird hated Image, or even hates it today, but he wants to tell his own stories.

kicknz · 02-20-2004, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarrah White

Quote:

Originally Posted by Straight-Edge

Two points to make:

Laird and fans slam the Image title for its over-the-top-ness, and I suspect most have never actually read the Image series.

Splinter was mutated into a Bat... and healed, ina 12 issue span. But Issue #17, he was good old rat-sensei again. Raph joined the Foot as Shredder for a sum total of 11 issues. By the last issue, he was tied up and hated by the clan, and the rest of the turtle gang had to save him. Pimiko, Shredder's daughter joined u with the turtles, while Lady Shredder took over the Foot clan, making the old rivalry legitimate again.

The turtles' injuries were to be healed by the unstable mutagen that created them (it was affecting Leatherhead during the Triceraton war arc), but the book didn't last long enough.

So the things you hated about the book were plots only, not permanent changes to the mythos. The only changes to the actual mythos, beyond character development (which is a good thing) was the reinstating of the war between the turtles and the Foot clan.

To be quite honest, even at this late date, Laird could squeeze Vol 3 into the Mirage mythos quite easily, by citing that unfnished arc about the mutagen healing the turtles, which pretty much returns the turtles to a status quo that's much more in line with Vol 4.

Second, why is it thatwhat Image did is hated, but what Laird is doing, tho similar, is revered?

Turtle falling out of a helicopter? In Image, it lead to the total revolution of Don's character! In Mirage, it led to Mikey discovering the Superhero Hospital..

Turtles taking a trip through a dinosaur exhibit in a museum? In Image, Don's on the run from Triceratons trying to take over the world! In Mirage, Mikey's taking an uppity Saurian Princess on a tour of the planet.

Splinter needs a new dynamic? In Image, he becomes a bat, plagues and terrorizes cities, is healed, then has to reflect and repent for sins he's really not responsible for committing! In Mirage, he's killed off.

I just think too many people, Laird included, are writing off a viable and rich chapter in Turtle's history (a superhero-equivalent of the changes we go through in the interim between high school kid and actual adult). Its symbolic of a big change in the turtles, that is reflected in their adult actions in Vol 4, but the events that caused that change are being ignored??

I really think Laird should just retcon it in, say that they were healed, and let it be. As a piece of literature, the turtles' mythos reads rather sparsely already. Why take away 23 issues *dedicated* to making them adults, which actually *enhances* the stories being told now, without contradicting them?

Maybe a prequil to Volume 4 issue 1 should be written...

Well, that's what the new 'Tales of the TMNT' series is supposed to be, to some extent.

Straight-Edge · 02-23-2004, 07:14 AM

>>E/L gave the permission, yes but they had no input with the stories, unlike in official Mirage volumes. And I do not believe Laird hated Image, or even hates it today, but he wants to tell his own stories. >>

No one's saying he can't, or wouldn't ba able to. That was exactly my point: Nothing in Image Vol 3 irrevocably changed the status quo of Vol 2, and once you add the "mutagen heals all their disfigurments" arc, nothing in Vol 3 contracdicts what's happened in Vol 4 thus far either.

Laird gave himnself the *biggest* timegap in any comic ever written, as far as I'm aware of, so that *anything* he wanted to write was free from historical trappings, as literally *anything* could happen in 15 years.

And, besides, why is it that "Mirage in-house" guest writerswho's arcs and characters only furthered to dilute that turtles' mythos with side-stories, and spotlights on their own characters as opposed to the real turtle cast... thos stories are suddenl;y better because they were produced by Mirage? Yet a series that, for 23 issues, kept the spotlight *firmly* on the main turtle cast, and actually *did something* with the whole dynamic of the mythos, and that's just not ok?

Yes, Laird has his perogative. That's cool. But is he doing it out of a true understanding for what he's ignoring, or does he just think "dey screwed up my toitles, ta hell wit' em?" Not that I think he's a dolt or anything, obviously he's not, but I'm wondering if biases didn't come into play, because Image certainly did more than any post-E&L Mirage writer to give the turtles an actual story, and not just a set of random adventures. In fact, most of the Mirage mythos tid-bits they seem to acknowledge were those that E&L thought up themselves!

Ah well, Image will always be a part of *my* turtle continuity. Just like Vol 1, Is 8, I have the original in print, and no amount of retconning can make it change for me.

**Karpo_007** · 02-23-2004, 07:44 AM

Archie's TMNT Adventures was a Licensed product and so was Image TMNT. Only difference is that Image more or less continued the Mirage story.

Archie cancelled TMNT adventures and Image cancelled TMNT. Why should Laird or Mirage studios in general continue any of the Licensed comics? I very much doubt they will continue the now cancelled Dreamwave book either. The fact that some fans might think Image stories are better than some of the Mirage ones isn't a reason for Mirage to continue it in any way.

Besides, most fans seem to be happy that Image is not part the official continuity, so Laird made the right choice.

*heretic888* · 02-23-2004, 02:02 PM

Popularity does not confer legitimacy. Particularly in art.

After all, the idea of "ignorant masses" didn't just pop up out of thin air.

Not that I'm saying Laird is in the wrong here. I'm just saying that just because a good deal of people approve of his decision (which is still debatable) doesn't necessarily make it the "right" one.

**Karpo_007** · 02-23-2004, 02:24 PM

Laird does the book for fans, if most fans are happy the choice is right. Besides like I said in my earlier post, Mirage has never continued any canclelled/ended licensed products, no matter how popular or "good art" they were. So the decision shouldn't have been a suprise to anyone.

*Tetsu Deinonychus* · 02-23-2004, 02:26 PM

Most of the Image plot-points were so ridiculous, they literally made me Laugh out loud! I'm SO glad Laird didn't continue down that path. Especially, since I am NOT a fan of Larson's work (or his whiney attitude concerning this issue), and frankly wouldn't trust him to park my car! (And, I don't even have a car).

For the record, If I were Laird, I'd have made Vol. 4 Issue 1 begin with one of the Turtles waking up and realizing the image series was just a weird dream. Thus wrapping up any loose ends.

Anyway, if you like the Image volume, them by all means read, and enjoy.

But, count me out.

Sparvid · 02-23-2004, 06:57 PM

How was the mutagen going to heal Don? Wasn't his entire body gone, and replaced by that cyborg-thingie?

Nate · 02-23-2004, 08:00 PM

Don was still Don inside the cyborg armor, missing only his shell.. IMO Image was an excellent series and could have been very neatly placed into canon continuity. I hate to beat a dead horse, but to those who claim the changes were drastic and outlandish, consider ones dogma, you are after all, reading a comic about four bipedal turtles trained in the deadly arts by a rat.

**Kali** · 02-23-2004, 10:41 PM

I reread my Image series over the last couple days, and I noticed a few plots that were actually interesting, and not all that overboard. Like with their mutagen "wearing off". Or the new battle with Lady Shredder.

Whenever anyone mentions Image, the first thought anyone has is the mutilations they put on the characters. With that in the forefront, I can see how people could miss the subtler ideas...

*Tetsu Deinonychus* · 02-23-2004, 10:46 PM

Raph as Shredder and Oroku Pimiko were cool ideas. But, I think everything else was LOL dumb. Just my opinion, though.

**HorseTechie** · 02-24-2004, 12:08 PM

Other threads that discuss the Image comics too:
http://www.technodrome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7875
http://www.technodrome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7837
http://www.technodrome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6118

All things considered, I can see what Laird does not have this part of the Mriage continuity. The Image story is much too intense, with "mutilations" that happened that can't be easily reversed. The biggest one that had fans in all riled up was making Don a Cyborg. I wasn't bothered so much by this, but others were. The cyborg situation sounded like a very permanent change, and it wasn't a metal suit he could just slip out of. But after looking at some of the future TMNT visions that Mirage had done in the Turtle Soup set, Don was a whole, normal Mutant Turtle as he always had been.

That detail alone had become the biggest issue that so many of fan(girls) did not think was right about the whole series. They were okay with everything else, it seemed. Nonetheless, many fic writers came up with lengthy plans how Don made a flesh clone of himself, and then somehow transfers his brain into the new form. Or he goes through thiese crazy operations to loose the cybernetics. Yeah... it was really getting very messy finding a way to turn Don back to normal, if not just kill him off and end his misery (Nooo! Leave the poor cyborg alone!).

So I think it was better on Laird's behalf to just say that series does not tie in the Mirage one. No crazy theories as to make right out of all the Image wrongs. And Cyborg Don doesn't have to endure a measure of unspeakable transformation sufferings in the process.

~~Jarrah White~~ · 03-15-2004, 03:43 PM

I think the least Laird could have done was come up with a explanation for the TMNT normal state.

The Big Bad · 03-18-2004, 01:47 AM

He did. Image never happened (or at least happened on a different timeline).

Although I have not read the Image comics, I'd say it had some interesting ideas (like Raph controlling the Foot), from what I've heard. Still, did the mutilations develop any of the characters? And wouldn't the mutations undoing the mutilations effectively make the turtles damn near unkillable?

~~Jarrah White~~ · 03-18-2004, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Big Bad

I have not read the Image comics

I strongly suggest you do, once you read these comics, you'll hate the route Laird took.

I still have hopes Laird will welcome back LadyShredder and Pimiko in a later issue, maybe a flashback saying Dr. X (Leatherhead's Utrom friend) either him or the other Utroms used their technology to heal Raphael, Leonardo and Donatello.

02-19-2004, 10:22 AM	#21
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hrmmm No offense, Karpo, but Straight-Edge has a very valid point here. And, while I think the overall plot in Volume 4 easily outshines Larsen's stint with the TMNT, in my opinion the character portrayal and character development was done much better in Image. I've said this before and I'll say it again, its my suspicion that Laird was the "plot man" of the duo and Eastman was the "character man". Just my opinion, of course. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

02-19-2004, 11:13 AM	#23
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hmmm No. I think Laird should do what Laird wants to do. If you force an artist to arbitrarily conform to some external standard you set up, then there's only one result: crap. All great art comes from the individual doing what he or she truly wants to do, not just doing what is convenient or popular. However, if it was me, I would have tried to "clean up" the loose ends at the end of the Image run. I do think there was some worthwhile elements that was developed in that series that would be worth preserving. Of course, I can understand why Laird did what he did, too. Ultimately, its his creation and his decision. Who's to say he's wrong?? __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

02-23-2004, 02:02 PM	#30
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	ahem Popularity does not confer legitimacy. Particularly in art. After all, the idea of "ignorant masses" didn't just pop up out of thin air. Not that I'm saying Laird is in the wrong here. I'm just saying that just because a good deal of people approve of his decision (which is still debatable) doesn't necessarily make it the "right" one. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

02-23-2004, 02:26 PM	#32
Tetsu Deinonychus The Iron Dinosaur Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Studio Snowlion HQ Posts: 3,021	Most of the Image plot-points were so ridiculous, they literally made me Laugh out loud! I'm SO glad Laird didn't continue down that path. Especially, since I am NOT a fan of Larson's work (or his whiney attitude concerning this issue), and frankly wouldn't trust him to park my car! (And, I don't even have a car). For the record, If I were Laird, I'd have made Vol. 4 Issue 1 begin with one of the Turtles waking up and realizing the image series was just a weird dream. Thus wrapping up any loose ends. Anyway, if you like the Image volume, them by all means read, and enjoy. But, count me out. __________________ (Image hosting by Postimage.org) And here's a list of all my old wacky threads!

02-23-2004, 08:00 PM	#34
Nate Hench Mutant Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Close enough to kill you ;) Posts: 301	Don was still Don inside the cyborg armor, missing only his shell.. IMO Image was an excellent series and could have been very neatly placed into canon continuity. I hate to beat a dead horse, but to those who claim the changes were drastic and outlandish, consider ones dogma, you are after all, reading a comic about four bipedal turtles trained in the deadly arts by a rat. __________________

02-19-2004, 10:49 AM	#22
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	So do you think Laird should have continued Image storry line then?

02-23-2004, 07:14 AM	#28
Straight-Edge Foot Soldier Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 139	>>E/L gave the permission, yes but they had no input with the stories, unlike in official Mirage volumes. And I do not believe Laird hated Image, or even hates it today, but he wants to tell his own stories. >> No one's saying he can't, or wouldn't ba able to. That was exactly my point: Nothing in Image Vol 3 irrevocably changed the status quo of Vol 2, and once you add the "mutagen heals all their disfigurments" arc, nothing in Vol 3 contracdicts what's happened in Vol 4 thus far either. Laird gave himnself the biggest timegap in any comic ever written, as far as I'm aware of, so that anything he wanted to write was free from historical trappings, as literally anything could happen in 15 years. And, besides, why is it that "Mirage in-house" guest writerswho's arcs and characters only furthered to dilute that turtles' mythos with side-stories, and spotlights on their own characters as opposed to the real turtle cast... thos stories are suddenl;y better because they were produced by Mirage? Yet a series that, for 23 issues, kept the spotlight firmly on the main turtle cast, and actually did something with the whole dynamic of the mythos, and that's just not ok? Yes, Laird has his perogative. That's cool. But is he doing it out of a true understanding for what he's ignoring, or does he just think "dey screwed up my toitles, ta hell wit' em?" Not that I think he's a dolt or anything, obviously he's not, but I'm wondering if biases didn't come into play, because Image certainly did more than any post-E&L Mirage writer to give the turtles an actual story, and not just a set of random adventures. In fact, most of the Mirage mythos tid-bits they seem to acknowledge were those that E&L thought up themselves! Ah well, Image will always be a part of my turtle continuity. Just like Vol 1, Is 8, I have the original in print, and no amount of retconning can make it change for me.

02-23-2004, 07:44 AM	#29
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Archie's TMNT Adventures was a Licensed product and so was Image TMNT. Only difference is that Image more or less continued the Mirage story. Archie cancelled TMNT adventures and Image cancelled TMNT. Why should Laird or Mirage studios in general continue any of the Licensed comics? I very much doubt they will continue the now cancelled Dreamwave book either. The fact that some fans might think Image stories are better than some of the Mirage ones isn't a reason for Mirage to continue it in any way. Besides, most fans seem to be happy that Image is not part the official continuity, so Laird made the right choice.

02-23-2004, 02:24 PM	#31
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Laird does the book for fans, if most fans are happy the choice is right. Besides like I said in my earlier post, Mirage has never continued any canclelled/ended licensed products, no matter how popular or "good art" they were. So the decision shouldn't have been a suprise to anyone.

02-23-2004, 06:57 PM	#33
Sparvid Stone Warrior Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Östersund, Sweden Posts: 860	How was the mutagen going to heal Don? Wasn't his entire body gone, and replaced by that cyborg-thingie?

02-23-2004, 10:41 PM	#35
Kali Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California! Posts: 11,101	I reread my Image series over the last couple days, and I noticed a few plots that were actually interesting, and not all that overboard. Like with their mutagen "wearing off". Or the new battle with Lady Shredder. Whenever anyone mentions Image, the first thought anyone has is the mutilations they put on the characters. With that in the forefront, I can see how people could miss the subtler ideas...

02-23-2004, 10:46 PM	#36
Tetsu Deinonychus The Iron Dinosaur Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Studio Snowlion HQ Posts: 3,021	Raph as Shredder and Oroku Pimiko were cool ideas. But, I think everything else was LOL dumb. Just my opinion, though. __________________ (Image hosting by Postimage.org) And here's a list of all my old wacky threads!

02-24-2004, 12:08 PM	#37
HorseTechie Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 5,677	Other threads that discuss the Image comics too: http://www.technodrome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7875 http://www.technodrome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7837 http://www.technodrome.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6118 All things considered, I can see what Laird does not have this part of the Mriage continuity. The Image story is much too intense, with "mutilations" that happened that can't be easily reversed. The biggest one that had fans in all riled up was making Don a Cyborg. I wasn't bothered so much by this, but others were. The cyborg situation sounded like a very permanent change, and it wasn't a metal suit he could just slip out of. But after looking at some of the future TMNT visions that Mirage had done in the Turtle Soup set, Don was a whole, normal Mutant Turtle as he always had been. That detail alone had become the biggest issue that so many of fan(girls) did not think was right about the whole series. They were okay with everything else, it seemed. Nonetheless, many fic writers came up with lengthy plans how Don made a flesh clone of himself, and then somehow transfers his brain into the new form. Or he goes through thiese crazy operations to loose the cybernetics. Yeah... it was really getting very messy finding a way to turn Don back to normal, if not just kill him off and end his misery (Nooo! Leave the poor cyborg alone!). So I think it was better on Laird's behalf to just say that series does not tie in the Mirage one. No crazy theories as to make right out of all the Image wrongs. And Cyborg Don doesn't have to endure a measure of unspeakable transformation sufferings in the process.

03-15-2004, 03:43 PM	#38
~~Jarrah White~~ Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 2,394	I think the least Laird could have done was come up with a explanation for the TMNT normal state.

03-18-2004, 01:47 AM	#39
The Big Bad Stone Warrior Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 653	He did. Image never happened (or at least happened on a different timeline). Although I have not read the Image comics, I'd say it had some interesting ideas (like Raph controlling the Foot), from what I've heard. Still, did the mutilations develop any of the characters? And wouldn't the mutations undoing the mutilations effectively make the turtles damn near unkillable?