Mortal Kombat (2021)

[AquaParade]

It's a cool idea. I love tonal shifts when they are pulled off well.

For me, ideally, they'd just pull back on those elements. We wouldn't see Outworld, powers would be used rarely, etc. Basically the same general tone as the first MK movie, but go a little harder/dirtier.

Remember that scene where Sub-Zero shatters a dude in the dining hall? That was disturbing and totally effective, at least at the time. And that was just pg-13, but everything felt more dire than in the new film.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

It's a cool idea. I love tonal shifts when they are pulled off well.

For me, ideally, they'd just pull back on those elements. We wouldn't see Outworld, powers would be used rarely, etc. Basically the same general tone as the first MK movie, but go a little harder/dirtier.

Remember that scene where Sub-Zero shatters a dude in the dining hall? That was disturbing and totally effective, at least at the time. And that was just pg-13, but everything felt more dire than in the new film.

Oh yeah 100% agreed....

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by IMJ

Oh no no no, they wouldn't have to keep it from the audience. Everyone KNEW going into Dusk Til Dawn from the trailers that it was a vampire movie. But the paradigm shift was still effective.... Midnight Meat Train did it well as well.

So the audience could go in knowing this, but it would still set the presentation and atmosphere for the narrative shift in a more 'special' way I think.

On another note it's crazy that those Mortal Kombat online shorts that string into a movie are still better MK material than anything Hollywood has ever pumped out....

I am not sure is there even a point in a shift, if it would have been a non-secret.

AFAIK, From Dusk Till Dawn was a case of executive meddling and creators of the movie didn't want to spoil surprise.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Sumac

I am not sure is there even a point in a shift, if it would have been a non-secret.

AFAIK, From Dusk Till Dawn was a case of executive meddling and creators of the movie didn't want to spoil surprise.

I never even considered that with FDTD.... back then I just saw it as-is and thought it was great. Midnight Meat Train did it incredibly well. That's a crazy movie, if you've never seen it try to check it out.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by IMJ

I never even considered that with FDTD.... back then I just saw it as-is and thought it was great. Midnight Meat Train did it incredibly well. That's a crazy movie, if you've never seen it try to check it out.

I watched FDTD for the first time, since the middle of the movie (basically where vampire stuff starts), so when I watched it from the beginning for the first time, I was surprised how grounded first part was.
But no "surprise" for me, obviously.

[Andrew NDB]

It was like Grindhouse, except instead of there being 2 movies by two different people in it, it's one movie with the first half seeming like 95% Tarantino and the second half seeming like 95% Rodriguez.

[sdp]

The reason cole as in it was to guide the audience, same reason why we had Steve McKee in that bruce lee movie to "help guide the audience", just standard Hollywood wanting to adapt something but being afraid of general audiences not liking it so they "casualize" it

[AquaParade]

Well, considering there really is no "main character" of Mortal Kombat (at least anymore - sure it was Liu at first, and Scorpion is most popular), it seems less offensive - or at least would, if Cole wasn't written and acted so poorly.

Sure, you could randomly choose any of the "Kombatants" to be the protagonist, but 95% of them are still going to be side-characters anyway, so I don't see it as a huge deal. It's about balance. Even with Cole as protagonist, this movie was still able to touch on Scorpion and Sub-Zero's backstory to a healthy degree, as well as others to a lesser degree. For all my problems with the film, I didn't feel like they were necessarily neglecting the characters I wanted to see.

So I don't really mind a new character as a protagonist, as long as they are well written and performed. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case here.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by sdp

The reason cole as in it was to guide the audience, same reason why we had Steve McKee in that bruce lee movie to "help guide the audience", just standard Hollywood wanting to adapt something but being afraid of general audiences not liking it so they "casualize" it

But again, Johnny Cage's whole thing is that he IS the outsider man to "help guide the audience." That is the exact role he played in the original movie. Now, there could be two mindsets:

#1: They didn't want to have a straight white male be the lead (the "white savior") in MK1 because of PC concerns but still needed a "help guide the audience" outsider type, so they made up a new Asian character to fill that role.

#2: They held back Johnny Cage entirely from MK1 to wait and see if it's a success and then, if so, to then circle back and get a "name" for Johnny Cage in any sequel which would be afforded a bigger budget to get said name.

I think maybe it's a mixture of both.

[sdp]

They specifically said Cage was held back for a sequel so they could have a big character début. I read that interview shortly after the movie came out.

Any shenanigans is just the studio messing with what they think would make MK more successful, there's no conspiracy just bad decisions that lead to a mediocre movie. At least it did things different than the first movie and it had some level of violence / interesting take. Too bad it's so forgettable. I'll take a tv show like MK conquest instead, and that had mostly original characters, yet they felt they belonged in the MK world. The movie wasn't horrible so perhaps a sequel can fix things but that's seems a bit hard to pull off without a proper direction.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by sdp

They specifically said Cage was held back for a sequel so they could have a big character début. I read that interview shortly after the movie came out.

Any shenanigans is just the studio messing with what they think would make MK more successful, there's no conspiracy just bad decisions that lead to a mediocre movie. At least it did things different than the first movie and it had some level of violence / interesting take. Too bad it's so forgettable. I'll take a tv show like MK conquest instead, and that had mostly original characters, yet they felt they belonged in the MK world. The movie wasn't horrible so perhaps a sequel can fix things but that's seems a bit hard to pull off without a proper direction.

At least conquest took place in the past before our mortal Kombat, so it made sense it would be new characters with some of the immortal ones like Raiden and Shang Tsung hanging around. This movie is supposed to be the legit Mortal Kombat. In game cluttered with characters there is no excuse for a new main character. No new characters allowed unless it's minor side characters like someone's family or random people that lose the earlier rounds of the tournament or whatever.

[sdp]

This movie wasn't the tournament, it was a prequel, just not a very interesting one so it doesn't set up a cool first movie for the tournament. I think original characters can work if done right, MK already has tons of characters that wouldn't be featured in a movie despite being parts of that since it's a fighting game with lots of characters. To make it work you focus on only a few.

Cole sucked by being related to Scorpion also all of the chosen one crap was cliche and ridiculous for MK. Amd yes I'm saying ridiculous for MK lore so let that sink in.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by sdp

The reason cole as in it was to guide the audience, same reason why we had Steve McKee in that bruce lee movie to "help guide the audience", just standard Hollywood wanting to adapt something but being afraid of general audiences not liking it so they "casualize" it

That's as meaningless as the "someone new for those not familiar with the mythology".

Any existing human character could have done this in the movie.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by IMJ

That's as meaningless as the "someone new for those not familiar with the mythology".

Any existing human character could have done this in the movie.

This is fair point.

That said, the movie would have sucked just as bad, were Cole a white Johnny Cage. It wouldn't have helped this particular movie a single iota.

Not saying it makes the point invalid, I'm just reiterating that Cole is the least of this film's problems.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

This is fair point.

That said, the movie would have sucked just as bad, were Cole a white Johnny Cage. It wouldn't have helped this particular movie a single iota.

Not saying it makes the point invalid, I'm just reiterating that Cole is the least of this film's problems.

Sure.... I mean it was a... what? C, D-lister cast for the most part? So basically we would've subbed the Cole actor's overacting and "karate flex-posing" for another guy of the same caliber to some extent, sure.

[Leo656]

I'm also pretty sure that Johnny Cage doesn't completely suck at fighting and that "sucks at fighting" isn't his entire gimmick, so yeah, having him rather than Cole actually WOULD have changed the movie. A lot.

Certain things like some of the actors and costumes being a bit low-rent would have remained in need of improvement, but using Cage actually WOULD have improved the overall movie in several fundamental ways from start to finish. AND it would have given people one less thing to complain about, which is always good. This whole Cole thing reeked of change for the sake of change, which is ALWAYS bad and I don't care who says otherwise.

And they were also on-record about how they couldn't have a "white male lead" so I don't even see how it's still a conversation. They said that, it's out there. "Too Many Honkies" was a fundamental creative factor in the entire "Why" of Cole's existence. And given everything I and others have pointed out - specifically, that you can pick anyone from Cage to Sonya or Liu or whoever to be the "audience avatar" and it actually would have been much better - I am VERY sure that "We just don't want a white guy" was THE biggest reason for it. The "audience avatar" bullsh*t got tacked-on after they had already got caught saying the other thing.

Like, why not Sonya? It's half her movie anyway, just erase Cole's character and have Sonya be the character the audience follows on the journey. Then you get to still talk up how "inclusive and progressive" you are by making the woman your lead. OH, wait, she's white, and blonde, which is visual shorthand for "Nazi", so Sonya can't be the main character either, obviously, even though she pretty much is that for than half the movie anyway and is a lot more fun to watch than f*cking Cole.

Bottom line, there were a lot of bad decisions made behind the scenes. But Cole was the worst, and even more so because it ultimately just came down to racism against white people, end of. "We don't need a white lead." Go f*ck your ass with that nonsense. Anyone who tries to say there was a bigger motivation is lying or naive as f*ck and I have no patience for either.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Like, why not Sonya? It's half her movie anyway, just erase Cole's character and have Sonya be the character the audience follows on the journey. Then you get to still talk up how "inclusive and progressive" you are by making the woman your lead. OH, wait, she's white, and blonde, which is visual shorthand for "Nazi", so Sonya can't be the main character either

White female... better than a white male, in their eyes, but still "not diverse enough" (even though white females account for like 80% of the army of whackjobs pushing this crap). Plus, "mumble, mumble, Sonya, created for male gaze, mumble, mumble, problematic" and so on, so maybe that's a factor.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'm also pretty sure that Johnny Cage doesn't completely suck at fighting and that "sucks at fighting" isn't his entire gimmick, so yeah, having him rather than Cole actually WOULD have changed the movie. A lot.

Certain things like some of the actors and costumes being a bit low-rent would have remained in need of improvement, but using Cage actually WOULD have improved the overall movie in several fundamental ways from start to finish. AND it would have given people one less thing to complain about, which is always good. This whole Cole thing reeked of change for the sake of change, which is ALWAYS bad and I don't care who says otherwise.

And they were also on-record about how they couldn't have a "white male lead" so I don't even see how it's still a conversation. They said that, it's out there. "Too Many Honkies" was a fundamental creative factor in the entire "Why" of Cole's existence. And given everything I and others have pointed out - specifically, that you can pick anyone from Cage to Sonya or Liu or whoever to be the "audience avatar" and it actually would have been much better - I am VERY sure that "We just don't want a white guy" was THE biggest reason for it. The "audience avatar" bullsh*t got tacked-on after they had already got caught saying the other thing.

Like, why not Sonya? It's half her movie anyway, just erase Cole's character and have Sonya be the character the audience follows on the journey. Then you get to still talk up how "inclusive and progressive" you are by making the woman your lead. OH, wait, she's white, and blonde, which is visual shorthand for "Nazi", so Sonya can't be the main character either, obviously, even though she pretty much is that for than half the movie anyway and is a lot more fun to watch than f*cking Cole.

Bottom line, there were a lot of bad decisions made behind the scenes. But Cole was the worst, and even more so because it ultimately just came down to racism against white people, end of. "We don't need a white lead." Go f*ck your ass with that nonsense. Anyone who tries to say there was a bigger motivation is lying or naive as f*ck and I have no patience for either.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

White female... better than a white male, in their eyes, but still "not diverse enough" (even though white females account for like 80% of the army of whackjobs pushing this crap). Plus, "mumble, mumble, Sonya, created for male gaze, mumble, mumble, problematic" and so on, so maybe that's a factor.

I agree on the premise of all of what you guys are saying. And I'm glad you did because I just didn't want to go there reiterating on how it actually would've been a completely different movie even if only on omitting Cole from the narrative. He was so central that the narrative wouldn't have had any choice but to be different.

Closest-to-as-is-change they could've made? Used the Cole-Actor-Guy as Scorpion in the feudal Japan scenes and then made him a slowly reawakened Scorpion reincarnate in the modern story. Even that would've given the audience their "through the eyes of" character, but now no Cole. Just Scorpion.

It's like Picard season one with Data and the synth body. So much nonsense that the narrative fixes are so obvious that the way it was done on-screen is inexplicable.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

White female... better than a white male, in their eyes, but still "not diverse enough" (even though white females account for like 80% of the army of whackjobs pushing this crap). Plus, "mumble, mumble, Sonya, created for male gaze, mumble, mumble, problematic" and so on, so maybe that's a factor.

Yeah, the whole "We're supposed to pretend we don't like looking at hot chicks" thing is one of the worst parts of this whole "progressive" nonsense.

If I had my way there'd be smoking hot chicks in every single goddamn thing, wearing as little as possible. Because I'm a f*cking man and that's what I like. It used to be understood that that was how things worked. That's why even "kids movies" used to have stuff like Jessica Rabbit and FW April O'Neil, and that's why Sonya initially had huge tits and tiny shorts. Because that is what people like.

If the presence of hot women offends you, you're a stupid idiot and shouldn't get to speak out loud about anything. I don't care if seeing a hot woman in a movie or game or cartoon makes fat, unshaven, blue-haired cat ladies struggle with their self-esteem. The onus is on them to turn themselves into someone people want to look at and not run away from, not to ensure that everyone hot and sexy gets covered up or their tits shrunken or whatever.

The one great thing about the 90s and early-00s was that everything was drowning in sex appeal. You'd go to the store and all the magazines looked like porno, with even "wholesome" stars like Melissa Joan Hart and Allison Hannigan sitting there with their hair all "just been f*cked" and their underpants falling off. It's like it took a whole century for us to finally get to the point where things SHOULD be, and then a few fat ugly lesbians on social media had to f*cking ruin it for everyone.

You even see it in the MK games themselves; MK 2008, Sonya correctly looks like a porn star and her already-skimpy outfit gets shredded as she takes damage. That's what people want. MK11, her tits shrunk by 2/3s, her face got messed up, and she's all covered up like a nun. Who booked this sh*t? Fat ugly chicks don't care about Mortal Kombat, you shouldn't redesign characters for THEIR sensibilities. They don't matter in the conversation.

Terrible. We're so f*cking backwards compared to where we were when Fox Magazine was a thing.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'm also pretty sure that Johnny Cage doesn't completely suck at fighting and that "sucks at fighting" isn't his entire gimmick, so yeah, having him rather than Cole actually WOULD have changed the movie. A lot.

Cage is one of the best fighters Earth has to offer, otherwise he won't be invited to the tournament.
His in-universe "bad fighter" reputation is kind of a paparazzi spreading rumors. Though, of course, he isn't on par with Liu Kang.

As for sex-appeal, MK9 went overboard with it.
Even half-nakedness can be stylish and MK9 was extremely lazy in that regard - two-piece bikini is not interesting. The fact that MK9 girls had awkward proportion and butterfaces doesn't help either.

Overall quality of costume in MK series had rapidly declined, since MK9. NRS stopped making new and fun costumes and just regurgitate the same stuff. Their constant desire to make MK look realistic with desaturation / oversaturation of colors in the games ruins what few good designs they have, since all of them either look the same or boring.