Raph vs. Leo - SPOILERS INSIDE

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by MoreCowbell5263

I've been trying to compare the Turtles to like cliques in high school to kinda be able to relate to them a little more, and it seemed to me that they were...

Mike: Jock
Don: Geek, nerd, or just smart person (trying to find a nice way of saying it)
Leo: Overachiever (gets good grades, volunteers, has a job, does everything)

Up until a few months ago, I'd say Raph was the Bully. But the more I hear about how he protects his brothers and has good intentions in what he does, he's just not the most agreeable person in his methods, the more I thought he's like "the older brother." Everyone here has to know what I'm talking about, he's that guy that weak kids refer to when they say, "put me down or my older brother will beat you up." I think is the most accurate way you can relate Raph to people you hear about in school life or just real life, but however, I always thought Raph was like the second youngest of the four.

I always thought it went Leo was the oldest, Mike was the youngest, and Don and Raph were in the middle, but unsure of who was older. But yeah, I have a new-found respect for Raph after seeing this movie as opposed to the first two movies where he ditched his brothers just because he was getting crap from Leo about what he thought they should do rather than waiting around for info or looking for a new place to live.

While this would be good reasoning. In this film, I think Leo was the eldest. But just because you are the oldest sibling, doesn't make you the primary protector of a family. And I think this family is no different. Raph is very overprotective of the ones he loves.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by MoreCowbell5263

I've been trying to compare the Turtles to like cliques in high school to kinda be able to relate to them a little more, and it seemed to me that they were...

Mike: Jock
Don: Geek, nerd, or just smart person (trying to find a nice way of saying it)
Leo: Overachiever (gets good grades, volunteers, has a job, does everything)

Up until a few months ago, I'd say Raph was the Bully. But the more I hear about how he protects his brothers and has good intentions in what he does, he's just not the most agreeable person in his methods, the more I thought he's like "the older brother." Everyone here has to know what I'm talking about, he's that guy that weak kids refer to when they say, "put me down or my older brother will beat you up." I think is the most accurate way you can relate Raph to people you hear about in school life or just real life, but however, I always thought Raph was like the second youngest of the four.

I always thought it went Leo was the oldest, Mike was the youngest, and Don and Raph were in the middle, but unsure of who was older. But yeah, I have a new-found respect for Raph after seeing this movie as opposed to the first two movies where he ditched his brothers just because he was getting crap from Leo about what he thought they should do rather than waiting around for info or looking for a new place to live.

Raph is the second youngest.

I think in high school Raph would be the quiet intimidating looking guy who watches everything like he might suddenly fly off the handle. The one everyone is scared of, but quietly respects.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I think it was established that Leo is oldest, then Don, then Raph, then Mikey.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by jenna

Raph is the second younger!

The movie only mentions Leo being the eldest and Mikey being the youngest. It never mentions who is older than who between Donny and Raph. So this particular tidbit is still up in the air.

[Revan]

How would they know who is older?

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Neutrino

How would they know who is older?

That's a damn good question! I honestly don't think they could tell who was older than who! Not in the hard core scientific truth anyways.

[Revan]

From the reconiscence I just did through some threads. Some logical explanations for Leo's apparent big brother status stems from the fact that he acts like an older brother in that he shows leadership. He may or may not be older, but his brothers look to him so that makes him older.

If their mother layed all four eggs at the same time, would the one that hatched first be the oldest or would the egg that came out of the mother be the oldest. Either way, the oldest can't be that much older.

And there would be no way for the turtles or splinter to know which one hatched first anyway.

[Seiza]

^Yeah, I don't think the "elder"/"younger" labels the guys use are referring to biological ages, but the way their personalities fit into certain roles. I'd see it more as a coincidence if they hatched in the same sequence (Leo -> Mikey).

Originally Posted by jenna

I think in high school Raph would be the quiet intimidating looking guy who watches everything like he might suddenly fly off the handle. The one everyone is scared of, but quietly respects.

I keep getting an image of Raph brooding in a corner of my school, glaring from the shadows, chewing bubble gum menacingly.

I don't think Mikey's very jock-like, though. They might share the athleticism, but his personality is more like the class clown. When I imagine "jock", I think of this obnoxious-swagger+girl-on-arm, and none of the turtles strike me that way.

[SLASH!!!]

Originally Posted by Neutrino

How would they know who is older?

I think they would dictate age by who started to walk and talk first. Leo grew quicker and was deemed the older brother. Mike was last and became the youngest.

[Avatar Yuffie]

it never mentions who is older than who between Donny and Raph

Well, both Leo and Splinter assumed Don to take charge of the family in the movie (poor guy), so it's logical to assume he's older than Raph.

[The Shelf]

Originally Posted by SLASH!!!

I think they would dictate age by who started to walk and talk first. Leo grew quicker and was deemed the older brother. Mike was last and became the youngest.

I think this is the best way to judge their age since their mutation is what made them who they are.

[Keno]

Up until a few months ago, I'd say Raph was the Bully. But the more I hear about how he protects his brothers and has good intentions in what he does

actually, i still sorta see him as that. at least in an elementary school type way, because sometimes bullies ARE seen as "protectors", that is, protectors of the weak, and that could even include themselves, that they portrary this tough attitude as a way to constantly defend themselves because they often feel misunderstood.

i took a sociology course in my first year at university, and i loved the subject, especially when examining people's "roles", in terms of personality and fitting in within groups. it covered alot of the stuff everyone discusses here in terms of their relationships as brothers and in a family...if only i was actually good at science, i would have studied the subject more, because it was incredibly fascinating to study personality types and stuff like that.

[Rooish]

Heh, I know this topic has been done before, but it kind of annoys me how lately, people who write TMNT stuff can't get the alleged official age order right. I'm referring to Don and Raph here. In 2k3, I think Don acts younger than Raph ... he's got a wide-eyed innocence about him, whereas Raph is like a second-in-command, protective older brother type. He was like that in the new movie, too. Shouldn't Don, the "second-oldest" (or, like, Splinter) have been leading the team when they went to rescue Leo?

I didn't even think that Mikey was officially established as the youngest in the new movie. Leo calls Mikey "little brother," but the others don't. But then, he definitely looks and acts youngest.

[aabxx]

1. It is a serious sparring duel, not a fight to death. None of them intends to kill the other. The goal is to make the other lose his weapons.

2. I will not say Raph is neccesarily dumb tactically but on this occasion he is. He might be good with his chains but does he seriously expect to take out Leo with them? He's asking to be humiliated... and Leo is only happy to oblige.

3. On to the hand-to-hand combat Leo looks much better. Raph is at a disadvantage because of his suit but it pans out exactly like you would imagine it to have panned out on many occasions before... Raph charging and relying on his brute force, and Leo outsmarting him move by move. Leo has time enough to actually talk and make fun of him... so while he's not hindered by a suit, he's still limiting himself by affording himself the time to talk in the middle of the fight. No wonder Raph is so angry with the smug ninja nerd!

Raph would btw have an advantage in hand to hand combat because his fists are more protected (usually this is a big advantage actually) but somehow, in an awesome display of force and technique, Leo is able to dragon punch Raph up in the air by hitting him directly on his metal visir, without breaking all the bones in his fist. That is a testament to how strong Leo actually is... he does not have the bulk of Raphael, but he demonstrates in several ways that muscle strength is not the most important thing in hand-to-hand combat (just ask Splinter!).

4. When they're fighting with the weapons, Leo smugly demonstrates his superiority in combat at one occasion (the shoulder scene). This only makes Raphael more angry. Leo has made a serious mistake. He's really pushed Raphael, and Raph is way more commited to winning now. Remember that Leo lives by the warrior code. His swords are extremely important to him. Raph knows this. When they interlock, Leo looks down at the weapons and is clearly surprised how much pressure Raph is putting on his swords. This shouldn't really be surprising Leo, as he must perfectly well know that Raphael is able to snap his swords, but he doesn't expect Raphael to be so ticked off to as to actually wanting to break his precious swords.

5. Raph snaps the swords. He breaks an unwritten rule. Having overpowered Leo he suddenly realizes he was taking this way more seriously than Leo. I think part of this aggression came from the fact that Leo was treating him like an inferior warrior (which Raphael is, actually, which Leo clearly demonstrated even though he lost in the end). But is was not a fight Leo wanted to win at any cost. We have to remember that it was Raphael who really attacked his brother, not the other way around... which is a serious flaw in Raphael's character, no matter how smug Leo actually is. Raphael came to these realizations when he had defeated Leo:
1. Leo was the better warrior at every step, both physically and mentally and Raph realized this... he knew he had won simply because he went too far and understood finally why Splinter preferred him to be the leader.
2. He had insisted on attacking his own brother. He suddenly becomes very shameful. Leo has his own faults, being too smug for one, but deep inside Raph realized that what he did was in fact much worse than Leo's smugness.
3. He runs away, scared of what he had done and of his freaky inferiority complex...

Onto Leo's perspective:
He becomes ashamed of himself. And his eyes show vulnerability. His pride as a fighter is not hurt, because I don't think there is any doubt in Leo's mind that he's a better fighter than Raphael (which Leo is, as has been demonstrated many times in the canon) but his pride as the leader and the "big brother", is shattered. He actually thought he could play around with Raphael in combat and after defeating him, they could go home and have a pizza. He realizes his serious flaw... Leo does indeed think the world revolves around him, as he beforehand couldn't even fathom the simple concept that Raphael would never follow Leo simply because of a defeat. And he failed to notice how ticked off Raph really was.

He's perplexed because the same things he was trying to teach Raphael, he hasn't in fact learned himself! He has let his ego become too big and had been unable to see simple things for what they were because of this.

It is sort of silly to read all the posts that this scene proves that Raphael is a better fighter than Leo. Sounds like an inferiority complex there All indications have always been in the canon that Leonardo is indeed the best fighter of them all. Leo is more technical, more tactical and more disciplined than Raphael (or any of the other turtles for that matter). He's not the "teacher's pet" and the leader-type for nothing. But for some reason, some Raphael-fans feel the need for him to be the best fighter... personally my favourite is Michaelangelo, so I'm not biased towards Raphahel or Leonardo but when canon says Leo is the most kickass ninja, that's what I'm gonna say!

[triplexxx]

I see where you come from, I should just clarify that there really is not enough evidence, even here, to prove who's best fighter, and though Raphael has got problems with his ego, as Leonardo does too, he still lives by the warrior code too, THEY ALL DO.

As I've said before, every turtle has a certain advantage over their brothers (and canon says it), Raphael=strength // Leonardo=skill/field-strategy // Michaelangelo=speed // Donatello=intellegence/scientific-strategy. Any of these adavantages can prove to be good for victory in battle on any given day. And "teacher's pet" is only a false interpretation of who Raphael thinks Leonardo is. If Splinter had a favorite, son or student, it'd be unethical of him and he'd wouldn't be as good a father as he is, and Splinter's got his faults too. I love every turtle equally and don't have a favorite and I know how to do the math, so I'm not biased....ever.

[Revan]

Originally Posted by aabxx

It is sort of silly to read all the posts that this scene proves that Raphael is a better fighter than Leo. Sounds like an inferiority complex there All indications have always been in the canon that Leonardo is indeed the best fighter of them all. Leo is more technical, more tactical and more disciplined than Raphael (or any of the other turtles for that matter). He's not the "teacher's pet" and the leader-type for nothing. But for some reason, some Raphael-fans feel the need for him to be the best fighter... personally my favourite is Michaelangelo, so I'm not biased towards Raphahel or Leonardo but when canon says Leo is the most kickass ninja, that's what I'm gonna say!

...On any given Sunday, dude.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by aabxx

It is sort of silly to read all the posts that this scene proves that Raphael is a better fighter than Leo. Sounds like an inferiority complex there All indications have always been in the canon that Leonardo is indeed the best fighter of them all. Leo is more technical, more tactical and more disciplined than Raphael (or any of the other turtles for that matter). He's not the "teacher's pet" and the leader-type for nothing. But for some reason, some Raphael-fans feel the need for him to be the best fighter... personally my favourite is Michaelangelo, so I'm not biased towards Raphahel or Leonardo but when canon says Leo is the most kickass ninja, that's what I'm gonna say!

And why must you feel the need to light the fires that have already died. Are you looking for another fight on the boards?

Triplexxx is right. There is no better fighter. They all bring something to the table. Like he said, Leo is best skilled and strategist, Mikey is most athletic and fastest, Donny is the most technically savvy, and Raph is the most strongest and toughest.

But if you want to get technical, this isn't the first time that we saw Raph beat Leo. If I recall correctly, in the comics, which are more canon than this movie, Leo and Raph got in a fight and Raph had had it with Leo and picked up the leader over his head and flung him through a wall. And that was the end of that fight. When Raph is really pissed off, like he was in the comic and in the movie, I don't think there is much Leo can pull out to stop him.

But that's my two cents. There really is no need to drag this up again abyxx, and then to call people silly for their views on how things go down. Can't you find a better way to get your point across without being condescending? Good grief, I'm in one of my Raph moods today!

[Leonardo Mystic]

Originally Posted by aabxx

Onto Leo's perspective:
He becomes ashamed of himself. And his eyes show vulnerability. His pride as a fighter is not hurt, because I don't think there is any doubt in Leo's mind that he's a better fighter than Raphael (which Leo is, as has been demonstrated many times in the canon) but his pride as the leader and the "big brother", is shattered. He actually thought he could play around with Raphael in combat and after defeating him, they could go home and have a pizza. He realizes his serious flaw... Leo does indeed think the world revolves around him, as he beforehand couldn't even fathom the simple concept that Raphael would never follow Leo simply because of a defeat. And he failed to notice how ticked off Raph really was.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. Leo doesn't think the world revolves around him at all. In fact, if you listen to him, he really doesn't think that highly of himself. There are a lot of times where he thinks he's been a failure, or isn't good enough. You could see when Splinter gave him that medallion after he returned home that he didn't think he even deserved it. He just stood there staring at it like he didn't know what to do with it. And if you notice, sometimes when he knows he's done a good job, getting praise makes him a little embarrassed, as if he's uncomfortable of being called attention to.

Humility is being humble and modest of yourself. He doesn't behave arrogantly, self-righteously, or egotistically as one would think the world revolving around them does. That would imply that he was selfish, and Leo is not by any means selfish. As Splinter said to Raphael though while he had the merits of strength, passion, and loyalty of a great leader, he did not have the humility and compassion to balance it out as Leonardo does.

Going on to Leo's perspective after the fight, but first I'm going to touch up on some points before it, with Raph still as Nightwatcher. Here we have Leo already on edge with Raph blowing off and leaving, and added pressure from Splinter, so he's about ready to snap. He runs into the Nightwatcher. Well, since he can't find Raph at the moment, why not confront the reckless vigilante first. Two birds with one stone is his logic.

However, Leo's not looking for a fight, he just wants to talk to Nightwatcher. He doesn't ever fight unless it's a last resort. It's Nightwatcher that ensues a fight, because it's really Raph, but Leo doesn't know that yet. Though Leo does not attack. He takes on the defensive, blocking instead, because he still doesn't want to fight. It's not until Nightwatcher discards the chain, and becomes a hand to hand combat.

By this point, Leo is thoroughly exasperated with him because he's being unreasonable, he feels like he's been wasting precious time, and so with no other choice given, he's quite ready to take on Nightwatcher. Still, he mostly ducks and dodges, relying on the strategy he loves to use and is best at. He then turns his opponent at a disadvantage, and uses Nightwatcher's anger against him. This is where he gets in a good, clean, clear uppercut because his guard has been significantly lowered.

So now is the revelation; that Leo learns Nightwatcher is Raph. It becomes a whole 'nother ball game at this point. Leo can't believe his own brother would be doing something like this. Raph starts on his tirade with Leo. Leo tries to get his brother to see that he's wrong, but nothing is getting through to him in the least. That's when he says something he would never otherwise; "I'm better than you."

That works, but not in the way Leo wants it to. Raph wants to fight him to prove him wrong. Leo does not want to fight his brother this way, but again he's left with no choice. He composes himself, and very reluctantly draws his swords. Raph doesn't hesitate, and charges right at him. Leo is forced to move then; to fight.

Leo doesn't play around at all with Raph. In fact, he's purposely holding back a little because he doesn't want to hurt his brother. He is indeed aware of how enraged Raph is. The sword at the neck was a scare tactic. As they lock weapons, Leo spares a glance down at his swords caught in the sais. He feels the amount of pressure Raph is bearing on them, and the metal starting to bend. He gazes back at Raph with a "You wouldn't, would you?" look.

Suddenly, the swords snap, and Leo staggers back a little from the force and surprise. That allows Raph to overcome him, and slam him to the ground with a sai inches from his face. In the moment after, Leo just stares up at him with this expression of heartbreak and disbelief which clearly reads "I can't believe my own brother tried to kill me. Does he truly hate me that much?"

So the purpose of this rather long-winded point was to show that no, Leo does not think the world revolves around him.

Originally Posted by aabxx

He's perplexed because the same things he was trying to teach Raphael, he hasn't in fact learned himself! He has let his ego become too big and had been unable to see simple things for what they were because of this.

See above. Leo does not have an over-inflated ego. What he was teaching Raph, he did learn. He had learned that in Central America when he was doing exactly what Raph was as the Nightwatcher that he was as the ghost of the jungle. It's why Leo was hellbent before on stopping the Nightwatcher. He wasn't proud of that, and it was just his way of helping to turn around someone else on the same path. Leo isn't the one to often lose sight of the simple things anyway.

[twopinacoladas]

I think Raph won, Leo won earlier when he knocked Raphs helment off, and Raph gave him a cheap shot then out muscled him and broke his katanas... I didnt really like how smug Leo was but it pissed me off so I would want Raph to do that lol. It was great either way, though generally I would think that Leo would win however it reminded me of the begining of City At War when Leo and Raph had that little fight pretty much the same thing...

[Shark_Blade]

Do you think tha Leo just gave up the fight, like not putting much of a fight with Raph?