Leo vs Raph - Outcome

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Somehow it seems that beating the crap out of people who steal for a living--because they don't have any other way because the economic system is so ****ed up--seems kind of sleazy to me. I know it was a PG movie, but I'd like to see Raph beat up violent offenders and rapists, not desperate thieves.

I guess I would vote for Raph, though.

Yeah.....you tell that to Warner Bros.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Somehow it seems that beating the crap out of people who steal for a living--because they don't have any other way because the economic system is so ****ed up--seems kind of sleazy to me. I know it was a PG movie, but I'd like to see Raph beat up violent offenders and rapists, not desperate thieves.

I guess I would vote for Raph, though.

I'd love it if the next movies got that dark. Heck, even maybe deal with some serial killer could be really wicked. Give it a SAW type twist, where the serial killer set up high tech traps and puzzles, and Donny could get the spotlight in trying to figure them out. But a serial killer, rapist or even a kidnapping might be too much for the franchise.

PS: Well, yeah, Raph's Nightwatcher was a public figure, but why was Leo going after a public most wanted vigilante, in his birthday suit? You'd think he'd have the common sense to disguise himself, knowing so many people were on the look out for The Nightwatcher. What if both were caught?

[Rooish]

Well, it's not so much that I need to see the R-rated stuff; it's more what I don't need to see. Which is robbers getting taught a lesson that will teach them nothing. But then the Turtles wouldnt have much to do except deal with sci-fi things, which are also obnoxious (to me), so I guess I shouldn't complain.

[twopinacoladas]

Normally I would want Leo to win and normally I would have thought he would have won. It reminds me of me and one of my younger bros, who is quite a bit more built then me (has about 60 lbs on me) he could toss me around pretty good now if he wanted to. With that said Leo was way to smug saying "cause Im better than you" I thought it was almost out of character but Raph showing Leo up surprised me. I like all the turtles I would normally lean slightly towards Mikey and Leo being favs but I dont really have a fav. I liked Raph in that movie you couldnt help but feel for him at certain points in the flick.

[Warhorse]

Originally Posted by twopinacoladas

Normally I would want Leo to win and normally I would have thought he would have won. It reminds me of me and one of my younger bros, who is quite a bit more built then me (has about 60 lbs on me) he could toss me around pretty good now if he wanted to. With that said Leo was way to smug saying "cause Im better than you" I thought it was almost out of character but Raph showing Leo up surprised me. I like all the turtles I would normally lean slightly towards Mikey and Leo being favs but I dont really have a fav. I liked Raph in that movie you couldnt help but feel for him at certain points in the flick.

I really loved Raph in here. Sure, he has his problems like everyone else, but he's certaintly not a bad guy.

And he is such the protector. Liked how he used his body as a shield for Casey when they were being shot at. I felt really sad seeing Raph fight off the tranquelizers all he could.
And then he had just had that mind blowing fight with Leo. I can imagine he would have had that out of body type of experience, which is pribably whu he ran and was confused, but the second he heard Leo scream, Raph was out to help Leo the best he could, but was too late, and Raph's scream towards the van that took Leo reminds me alot of the scream Raph bellowed when they realized Splinter had been kidnapped in the first movie.

Raph owned this movie. I feel bad that the others keep getting shafted, but I wonder, would Mikey and Don they have what it takes to carry a full length feature film? I definitely agree that they are much underused in this film. But Raph and Leo, they attract your attention because they just do.

I dunno, I feel glad that my favorite Turtle shined like a beacon in the night sky in this movie, but guilty that the other two didn't get the justification that was needed.

But I do think this Leo is far better than the Leo I have seen in the other movies, and about equal to the Leo portrayed in the 2k3 toon.

[Masked Ninja]

To put things in context first:

Leonardo was once my favorite turtle... before I stopped being able to choose. But since his personality is a lot like mine, I'll probably always favor him a little over Raph. I just understand his motivations a bit more. I'm also the eldest of three, so I've even shared his role a bit in my life.

That said, this fight was great because I think both Turtles were justified. Raph thinks Leo is being cocky because he just got back from intensive training and is being pretty pushy about gathering his family back around him. Leo thinks Raph is being irrational and selfish by disobeying Splinter's orders just to go out and be a "showboating vigilante." He also is peeved because he sacrificed a lot of his time in order to better himself and his leadership for the team, and Raph doesn't seem to appreciate that. Of course, Leo got a little self-absorbed himself (as we saw in the beginning of the film).

And that's what I loved about it. They were BOTH right, and I understood both of their motivations. They also were BOTH wrong in certain ways. This is why I think this was probably the best Leonardo to date, because unlike the previous movies and even the old 'toon, he had a strong enough personality. I honestly think he's just as stubborn as Raph, but has better self-control. But unlike the 2k3 toon, he was shown to have serious faults (though his season 4 freakout was very appreciated by yours truly). Even on a good day, Leo is a little arrogant. It'd be hard not to be, when you are the most dedicated to training and explicitly selected as leader over the others. (which I don't think has ever been directly acknowledged in any other medium... he leads in the old toon, but is there evidence that Splinter directly appointed him? The movies and new toon have Leo as the unofficial leader - the others joke/whine about it but he seems to lead because he naturally does so. I don't know enough about the comics, maybe he leads officially there?)

*cough* Anyways. I keep getting sidetracked. I'll get to the meat of this.

While both Turtles (IMO) had good reasons to be ticked off, I think Raph winning was the best way to solve their problem. Coming back to his senses as he was crouched over his brother and ready to strike a killing blow was a wakeup call. He may be a disagreeable SOB at times, but Raph is no brother-killer, and what he was about to do slapped his major flaw in his face...hard. He also understood why Leo was more suited to lead, because allowing yourself to become blind like that is no help to anyone. Leo's line "you're not ready!" made sense to him then.

Consider what would have happened if Leo had won. Since he's great at keeping his cool, there would have been no "oh crud, what have I done?!" moment because he would merely have got Raph where he obviously couldn't continue the fight. MAYBE if he accidentally hurt Raph pretty bad it would be there (and in any case he would probably deal with some guilt internally) but my imagination sees Leo standing over Raph with a smug "I told you so" smile on his face. I love Leo, but I can see him being smug like that, no problem. And how would that have helped anything? Raph would just be humiliated, which would make him angrier, and any continued superiority from his big brother would certainly not make him any more inclined to follow, as it would inspire NO respect.

Raph winning is the only way it would have worked out, and I was glad to see it happen.

One last point I want to make: watch the "Who said I wanted to be led?" clip again. Notice how Leo sounds heated in his accusations right until he's about to drop the bomb, and he gets creepily calm. I think until that point his complaints were wholehearted, and then he was gathering for something hurtful. Not because he really meant it, but because he wanted to show Raph how ticked off his was about the situation and finally get a reaction. I've done the same thing (sad to say) in arguments with my own siblings back in the day. When your real accusations don't seem to sway them, you get mad enough to shoot off something that might be close to the truth but is really meant to get a reaction, because at that point your anger has reached its peak and you feel like provoking your opponent into a physical fight to drain off that anger.

It was probably a blessing for Leo to have been asleep in the cage, because the regret would have come fast and it would have hurt. He'll still have to suffer that, but luckily Raph had already forgiven him by the time he was rescued.

Dang, I should shut up. Hope that drivel was interesting to someone.

[Fledermaus]

It was interesting to me, MN! Another great analysis!

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Originally Posted by Masked Ninja

Dang, I should shut up. Hope that drivel was interesting to someone.

Do go on, Masked Ninja. Your analyses are always insightful and thought-provoking. They're never a dull read.

[Willis]

Very well written, Masked Ninja.

I can respect if this did have some secret message delt from Leo to Raph. I'd have to hear it from the horses mouth to accept it, I suppose. It may have finished that way but I don't think it started that way.

See lets take two steps backwards and remember when Leo came into the scene. Through the entire movie Leo is talking smack about the NightWatcher. And when they finally meet up, what does Leonardo do? Lecture and talk smack. When Raph is revealed, what does Leo do? Begin to lecture..again.. But Raphael shuts him up for a second using his fist. Giving Raph the chance to talk.

That whole argument between Leonardo an Raphael - Never once does Raph make a comment on why he is or is not the leader of a team. But Raph wanting to be allowed to make his own decisions about what he can and cannot do.

This I see as best when Leonardo cries out "I was training to be a better leader.. for you! Why do you hate me for that?" Does Raph say "yeah, I hate you!" , or does he say "well why do YOU have to be the leader?".. no.. he argues about why HE even has to have a leader.

Thats when Leo chimes in about Raph's weaknesses and the famous "I'm better." Comment. I just can't see that being about ANYTHING but who was the stronger fighter.

[jenna]

Hi there! I am new here and scared because I am technically inept and not sure if I'm posting correctly, but here goes...

I agree with Masked Ninja and would like to add a thought:

Leo and Raph are fighting about more than just leadership. Raphael is resentful of Leonardo for going away and feels rejected that he stayed away and forgot about his family - he moved on whilst the others had to stay and this has increased his anger with Leo. Splinter knows this and even said to Leo that his absence had been hard for Raph and that Leo should take steps to mend the damage. Leo, however, takes no action to talk to him, buckles at the first sign of hostility (which if he knows his brother at all, should tell him something is wrong) and then tries to place blame when Splinter challenges him on it. As Raph overheard Splinter's conversation with Leo, he is angry that Leo doesn't make an effort with him and this fuels his anger in the fight.

With regards to the leadership issue, it's an easy excuse to fight over it because Raph doesn't like to take orders, especially from the brother he historically competed with for the role of leader, but the real problem (in my opinion) is that Raphael has never been able to distinguish between Splinter the teacher and Splinter the father. He doesn't say to Splinter "I know why you picked him, why he's the leader and I'm not", he says: "I know why you picked him, why he's the BETTER SON and I'm not." Raph's resentment of Leo's leadership is a perversion of the original resentment born by having perceived that by selecting Leo as the leader, Splinter was declaring him the favourite.... more cause for anger: rejection.

I think this is why Leo's "I'm better than you" comment touches a nerve which makes Raph attack. He then runs away when he realises how close he was to killing his brother whom, despite the fact that he is displacing all of his hatred onto him, Raphael loves. He cannot face Leo whilst he recognises this. When he speaks to Splinter later, saying "I know why you picked him", I do not think this is a comment on Leo's appropriateness for leader, moreover Raphael's inappropriateness.

[Brandatello]

yeah...like in the episode tales of leo raph says "i always thought i would be leader, i was toughest, bravest..."and it fades to the flash back were leo saves raph from an alligator. then he starts to cry. so i think raph really loves his brothers but hides it with anger..like the time were he almost kills mikey with a pipe.

[PrivateRadio]

hey, couple things

1) I think the reason Leonardo was worried about Nightwatcher was that he was becoming too much of a public figure, and making people worry about that sort of thing being a danger to the city. The same sort of thing the Turtles (and Casey) do and/or have done. That and I feel like it must have had to do with how bad Raphael was wrecking these dudes.

2) I think the film pretty much implied that Leonardo stopped fighting all out once it was revealed that it was Raph. In his fighting, his facial expressions and everything. Even in the warning shot with the katana. It's pretty clear that he doesn't want to really hurt his brother, especially after the housing he gave the Nightwatcher. The movie plainly implies Leonardo is the strongest fighter (as it always has been) and I think in part that's even one of the reasons that side-fight between him and Karai happens where he never even takes out his swords. (that by the way made me giddy as all hell) I'm not gonna go as far as to say Leonardo let Raph win as part of his plan, but letting himself get laid out like that when the swords broke and what Raph says to Splinter does sorta reach for that.

this is getting a little too long winded. Watching the movie, I thought it was clear that Leo's whole mentality changed when the fight started, and the movie was TRYING to show that.

That said, loved the scene, and the part where Raph is watching Leo through the helmet ("Oh my god, he's lecturing!") is one of the best, most overlooked jokes in the movie.

[triplexxx]

My interpretation is pretty simple: they went up against each other because their egos got the better of them, neither were trying to kill each other but just to pin the other down (though Raphael may have wanted to do a little more damage), and they both had a lesson to learn from it all.

Leonardo's lesson: protecting/watching over the family was not solely his responsibility and he wasn't as almighty as he thought and he needed his brother.

Raphael's lesson: he wasn't as independent or almighty as he thought he was and sincerely needed his brother too.

Spoiler:

This is why they tell each other later in the final battle after Leonardo is rescued they need one another

[Buslady]

Originally Posted by PrivateRadio

That said, loved the scene, and the part where Raph is watching Leo through the helmet ("Oh my god, he's lecturing!") is one of the best, most overlooked jokes in the movie.

Believe me, this hasn't been forgotten by me. I loved that line. I'd be saying the same damn thing...

[Rooish]

Originally Posted by jenna

Hi there! I am new here and scared because I am technically inept and not sure if I'm posting correctly, but here goes...

I agree with Masked Ninja and would like to add a thought:

Leo and Raph are fighting about more than just leadership. Raphael is resentful of Leonardo for going away and feels rejected that he stayed away and forgot about his family - he moved on whilst the others had to stay and this has increased his anger with Leo. Splinter knows this and even said to Leo that his absence had been hard for Raph and that Leo should take steps to mend the damage. Leo, however, takes no action to talk to him, buckles at the first sign of hostility (which if he knows his brother at all, should tell him something is wrong) and then tries to place blame when Splinter challenges him on it. As Raph overheard Splinter's conversation with Leo, he is angry that Leo doesn't make an effort with him and this fuels his anger in the fight.

With regards to the leadership issue, it's an easy excuse to fight over it because Raph doesn't like to take orders, especially from the brother he historically competed with for the role of leader, but the real problem (in my opinion) is that Raphael has never been able to distinguish between Splinter the teacher and Splinter the father. He doesn't say to Splinter "I know why you picked him, why he's the leader and I'm not", he says: "I know why you picked him, why he's the BETTER SON and I'm not." Raph's resentment of Leo's leadership is a perversion of the original resentment born by having perceived that by selecting Leo as the leader, Splinter was declaring him the favourite.... more cause for anger: rejection.

I think this is why Leo's "I'm better than you" comment touches a nerve which makes Raph attack. He then runs away when he realises how close he was to killing his brother whom, despite the fact that he is displacing all of his hatred onto him, Raphael loves. He cannot face Leo whilst he recognises this. When he speaks to Splinter later, saying "I know why you picked him", I do not think this is a comment on Leo's appropriateness for leader, moreover Raphael's inappropriateness.

Very good point there. I think Leo was less sensitive than he could have been. He basically just got defensive right away. In the novelization, Leo did try to talk to Raph.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Very good point there. I think Leo was less sensitive than he could have been. He basically just got defensive right away. In the novelization, Leo did try to talk to Raph.

Yeah he did - and I was sorry to see that scene cut. It was one of the good ones.

[Willis]

Originally Posted by Buslady

Believe me, this hasn't been forgotten by me. I loved that line. I'd be saying the same damn thing...

I don't promote the use of YouTube like this but... it does have it's moments for discussion sake.
The sound is not that great but I found this clip of the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wD27S58FHw

And ya know I stand corrected.. For some reason I remembered Leo getting hit in the face, not a mid kick.

[jenna]

Originally Posted by Willis

I don't promote the use of YouTube like this but... it does have it's moments for discussion sake.
The sound is not that great but I found this clip of the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wD27S58FHw

And ya know I stand corrected.. For some reason I remembered Leo getting hit in the face, not a mid kick.

Haha I like the way Leo gives a lecture on anger management!

That is pure hatred in Raphael's eyes when he snaps those katanas!

[Masked Ninja]

Good points, jenna!

And yeah, I loved the "is he lecturing?!" quip from Raph. Reminded me of the "monologuing" dig in The Incredibles, but with a Turtles twist.

[Time Mistress]

What's funny about the lecturing comment is that in the novelization it aslo says that Raph's helmet was damaged in the Jersey Devil fight to the point he could barely hear Leo with it on anyway.

Great analysis MN and Jenna. I'm enjoying it.