Do you think Leo is turning into a Marty Stu?

[MsMarvelDuckie]

The trouble with THOSE definitions is that they're TOO short. And ambiguous. Seriously, by that definition, pretty much all fictional characters could be labeled as Stu/Sues.

Here's a more comprehensive one (taken from TV Tropes):

"Mary Sue is an unrealistically capable and virtuous character, one who simply lacks flaws and is depicted in an overly positive light. In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature."



"As far as their traits go, Marty Stu incorporates most of the Common Mary Sue Traits while having quite a few general trends to differentiate him. While the textbook Mary Sue is generally made as a pseudo-realistic ideal of feminine perfection, Marty Stu tends towards taking the Rule of Cool TO THE EXTREME!! Due in part to the Double Standard, Marty tends to be less of an emotional cornerstone and more just an embodiment of pure physical and mental awesome (ala God-Mode Sue). He's the type that tends to be stronger than The Incredible Hulk, faster than Sonic the Hedgehog, and have more MP than God himself.

Marty also generally doesn't have the sort of purity common in Mary (although it's not unheard of). Instead, he tends more towards the Darker and Edgier path, with a tragic and very personal backstory being the order of the day. Whereas Mary would use this to emphasize just how special she truly is, Marty uses it for the sake of brooding. No doubt much of the recent popularity of this character trait owes credit to Batman and Wolverine (who can provide examples of Marty Stu themselves, Depending on the Writer), but there's no indication that it only started with those characters.
Obviously, neither of these traits are exclusive to Marty. There exist plenty of God Mode and Sympathetic Sues, but in sheer percentage, it's more common on Marty. Since All Girls Want Bad Boys, after all, increasing the Bad Ass potential of a character has the secondary effect of making him more attractive to women without having to sacrifice any capability. Sometimes, this attitude goes just a little too far and creates Jerk Sue."


Leo really doesn't meet the criteria for this, as he's NOT perfect, and although he's the "best" fighter, he works hard to get that way, showing that it's not effortless for him as it would be for a Stu, he isn't good at EVERYTHING, and he isn't loved by all the females- April just treats him as a friend, and Karai is- well, she's currently brainwashed. In other words, all he's done is learn a new skill, and suddenly he's turning into a Stu? Sorry, doesn't wash.

[Powder]

Why do you guys bother? Honestly, I don't get it. There are people who don't budge from their stance, period, no use making yourself red in the face trying to change that.

[Luckyday]

Oh boy this thread, man. I'm probably going to regret replying because honestly I am somewhat in the middle but my bottom line is...

Leo is not a mary sue, however it's not a good idea treat him as the main character because it makes the others look like minor characters who don't need the attention or focus and are only there to support the develop of the "main character" with the chosen one syndrome stamp across his forehead. That is a major cardinal sin in my book and the worst way to represent Leonardo.

However it only feels that way with just one recent episode. Splinter never really explained why he taught it to him alone. His explantation of him having near death experience was more pointing at him dying from the venom from the hands of Karai and not because of the season 2 finale.

That being said with one episode, the show itself does great a job in pointing out how his strengths can also be his major weaknesses like in the episode "Follow the Leader" shows how each turtle was able to get past Leo using their strengths. While it's good being discipline as a fighter but having the un willingness to think outside the box can make you weak in certain situations and making you unable to be the best fighter by default.

Leonardo is best as a part of a set and not the main package. Everybody serve a purpose that will bring success towards their missions. Mikey is the wild card that can turn the tide. Donnie is the hacker/ science expert. Raph is the physical support on the team. Leo serve as the leader that gives direction of said team. So when one person is missing it throws the balance of the team out of whack.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Why did Splinter only teach it to him? Simple. Because he was the ONLY ONE IN THE ROOM! The others were all watching their sparring session from outside, while Leo was practicing with Splinter using the bokken. Then Splinter used the healing hands on his knee, and Leo asked him what he was doing. So he showed it to him. Had the others come in at that time, he might have taught it to them, too. But they didn't. Leo was simply the only one present at the time. Not hard to figure out. Honestly, when I first heard all the grumbling over it, I assumed he singled Leo out specifically for that lesson, but he didn't. It's just that Leo was already there for private practice to begin with, and expressed interest in the technique. So Splinter showed him. None of the others did that.

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

The trouble with THOSE definitions is that they're TOO short. And ambiguous. Seriously, by that definition, pretty much all fictional characters could be labeled as Stu/Sues.

Here's a more comprehensive one (taken from TV Tropes):

"Mary Sue is an unrealistically capable and virtuous character, one who simply lacks flaws and is depicted in an overly positive light. In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature."

There is no difference between Marty Stu and Mary Sue. The different names do not imply differences in characteristics instead it is to inform of the gender of the character. Marty Stu and Mary Sue are the same because they are idealized characters, the other stuff is just fluff and is subjective.

The problem is you are using various, subjective opinions to define a Marty Stu. How can a character ever classify as one if you need such hard concrete evidence to get the notion that he is a Marty Stu. The short, precise explanation is without opinions and is more of a mutual understanding.

Almost every character can be characterized as a Marty Stu/Mary Sue, this is true. The thing is most writers prevent that label on their characters by giving reasons and answers to the reader's questions. A Marty Stu/Mary Sue is basically a character without the reasons and answers.

We are not given reasons or answers to why Leo is the only one capable of saving the day on "The Deadly Venom''. We are just shown that Leo is the ninja who can instantly master private techniques and receives recognition and praise from the most unlikely characters.

I am basically criticizing the show for its lack of answers. The lack of answers results in Leo turning towards the Marty Stu direction.

Originally Posted by Luckyday

Oh boy this thread, man. I'm probably going to regret replying because honestly I am somewhat in the middle but my bottom line is...

Leo is not a mary sue, however it's not a good idea treat him as the main character because it makes the others look like minor characters who don't need the attention or focus and are only there to support the develop of the "main character" with the chosen one syndrome stamp across his forehead. That is a major cardinal sin in my book and the worst way to represent Leonardo. http://i.imgur.com/abtor4B.gif

However it only feels that way with just one recent episode. Splinter never really explained why he taught it to him alone. His explantation of him having near death experience was more pointing at him dying from the venom from the hands of Karai and not because of the season 2 finale.

That being said with one episode, the show itself does great a job in pointing out how his strengths can also be his major weaknesses like in the episode "Follow the Leader" in showing how each turtle was able to get past Leo using their strengths. While it's good in having discipline as fighter but having the un willingness to think outside the box can make you a weaker fighter in certain situations and can't be the best fighter by default.

Leonardo is best as a part of a set and not the main package. Everybody serve a purpose that will bring success towards their missions. Mikey is the wild card that can turn the tide. Donnie is the hacker/ science expert. Raph is the physical support on the team. Leo serve as the leader that gives direction of said team. So when one person is missing it throws the balance of the team out of whack.

You have some good points. Again, the thread is about if Leo is turning into a Marty Stu and not about if he is one. Currently, from the previous episode, Leo is turning into Marty Stu. I believe in ''The Deadly venom'' episode Leo is a Marty Stu.

Now people want to refuse the obvious truth and it really surprises me how ignorant people can be.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Why did Splinter only teach it to him? Simple. Because he was the ONLY ONE IN THE ROOM! The others were all watching their sparring session from outside, while Leo was practicing with Splinter using the bokken. Then Splinter used the healing hands on his knee, and Leo asked him what he was doing. So he showed it to him. Had the others come in at that time, he might have taught it to them, too. But they didn't. Leo was simply the only one present at the time. Not hard to figure out. Honestly, when I first heard all the grumbling over it, I assumed he singled Leo out specifically for that lesson, but he didn't. It's just that Leo was already there for private practice to begin with, and expressed interest in the technique. So Splinter showed him. None of the others did that.

Your best defense is speculation, that there ruins your credibility. and you didn't even answer my previous question; can you understand abstract stuff?

[Luckyday]

With talking about marty sues, there are times when I wonder if Mikey is slowly becoming one? High unlikely, I know but there are few things, just two moments really, from the top of my head like he somehow made super retro mutagen and the other time, with getting in trouble but ended up with the other character apologizing to him.

Again with Leonardo, he's not becoming a marty sue. That second last episode, he didn't figure out on how to break the mind control through a feeling like how a real mary sue would've came upon their answer. He had to figure out through observation and thinking. Mary sues never have to think. They just know automatically through lazy writing.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Werecat

There is no difference between Marty Stu and Mary Sue. The different names do not imply differences in characteristics instead it is to inform of the gender of the character. Marty Stu and Mary Sue are the same because they are idealized characters, the other stuff is just fluff and is subjective.

The problem is you are using various, subjective opinions to define a Marty Stu. How can a character ever classify as one if you need such hard concrete evidence to get the notion that he is a Marty Stu. The short, precise explanation is without opinions and is more of a mutual understanding.

Almost every character can be characterized as a Marty Stu/Mary Sue, this is true. The thing is most writers prevent that label on their characters by giving reasons and answers to the reader's questions. A Marty Stu/Mary Sue is basically a character without the reasons and answers.

We are not given reasons or answers to why Leo is the only one capable of saving the day on "The Deadly Venom''. We are just shown that Leo is the ninja who can instantly master private techniques and receives recognition and praise from the most unlikely characters.

I am basically criticizing the show for its lack of answers. The lack of answers results in Leo turning towards the Marty Stu direction.

You have some good points. Again, the thread is about if Leo is turning into a Marty Stu and not about if he is one. Currently, from the previous episode, Leo is turning into Marty Stu. I believe in ''The Deadly venom'' episode Leo is a Marty Stu.

Now people want to refuse the obvious truth and it really surprises me how ignorant people can be.


Your best defense is speculation, that there ruins your credibility. and you didn't even answer my previous question; can you understand abstract stuff?

Wow. Thank you for stating the obvious there. No kidding. Of course they are "the same" except for gender- although the point of that insert was to show HOW they are different. Ideals of masculine perfection are different from those of feminine perfection, BECAUSE of their gender. And yes, there ARE differences. A female Sue is going to be "pure", sweet, and loved by everyone, while a guy will be "rugged, strong, and broody". BOTH will be capable of doing ANYTHING they try, usually with little effort. And while Leo DID learn the new skill rather quickly, that's about the ONLY "Stu-ish" thing about him here. And yes, the show DID give reasons- just not in dialog. Don't TELL, SHOW!! They actually gave us all the reasons VISUALLY, instead of just throwing a line or two to "explain" everything. The only thing they "explained" in dialog was how/why he was able to master it after being poisoned- but everything else was in the animation. Perfectly understandable, and realistic.

He wasn't praised by "everybody"- just a quick "thank you and good job, bro!" from the group, without much hoopla. Seriously. that was IT. Nobody was gushing over how he saved them. Even Splinter played it down as just him becoming a better warrior. And called it a win, but that's about it. Whoopdie-friggin-do. Again- he is NOT turning into a Stu, even in this ONE EPSIODE!! If he was he'd suddenly know how to hack as well as Donnie, be as tough and strong as Raph, and funny and athletic as Mikey. He'd gain psychic powers like April, or be able to beat Shredder with one hand behind his back. As it is, he only beat Splinter because he was injured! So WHERE is the "Stu"??!! Not seein' one here, nope, nope.....

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Wow. Thank you for stating the obvious there. No kidding. Of course they are "the same" except for gender- although the point of that insert was to show HOW they are different. Ideals of masculine perfection are different from those of feminine perfection, BECAUSE of their gender. And yes, there ARE differences. A female Sue is going to be "pure", sweet, and loved by everyone, while a guy will be "rugged, strong, and broody". BOTH will be capable of doing ANYTHING they try, usually with little effort. And while Leo DID learn the new skill rather quickly, that's about the ONLY "Stu-ish" thing about him here. And yes, the show DID give reasons- just not in dialog. Don't TELL, SHOW!! They actually gave us all the reasons VISUALLY, instead of just throwing a line or two to "explain" everything. The only thing they "explained" in dialog was how/why he was able to master it after being poisoned- but everything else was in the animation. Perfectly understandable, and realistic.

He wasn't praised by "everybody"- just a quick "thank you and good job, bro!" from the group, without much hoopla. Seriously. that was IT. Nobody was gushing over how he saved them. Even Splinter played it down as just him becoming a better warrior. And called it a win, but that's about it. Whoopdie-friggin-do. Again- he is NOT turning into a Stu, even in this ONE EPSIODE!! If he was he'd suddenly know how to hack as well as Donnie, be as tough and strong as Raph, and funny and athletic as Mikey. He'd gain psychic powers like April, or be able to beat Shredder with one hand behind his back. As it is, he only beat Splinter because he was injured! So WHERE is the "Stu"??!! Not seein' one here, nope, nope.....

ARE YOU CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING ABSTRACT STUFF, THINGYS!? Maybe if I type in all caps you will answer. From my guesstimate, you are not capable of understanding abstract stuff, thingys, whatever. You seem like the type of person who is more practical and needs extensive concrete evidence to ever get the notion of anything.

Originally Posted by Luckyday

With talking about marty sues, there are times when I wonder if Mikey is slowly becoming one? High unlikely, I know but there are few things, just two moments really, from the top of my head like he somehow made super retro mutagen and the other time, with getting in trouble but ended up with the other character apologizing to him.

Again with Leonardo, he's not becoming a marty sue. That second last episode, he didn't figure out on how to break the mind control through a feeling like how a real mary sue would've came upon their answer. He had to figure out through observation and thinking. Mary sues never have to think. They just know automatically through lazy writing.

I don't think it is fair to compare a Marty Stu in a well written storyline to a Marty Stu in a terribly written storyline. I am not saying any of the TMNT episodes are poorly written 'cause I think they are good enough with just a few imperfections. I think you are using a Marty Stu from a terribly written story and comparing it to every other story when that case is unique in its own right. People who use stories or whatever as examples are not the biblical definition of Marty Stus, it is rather subjective.

I like the Nick TMNT which is why I am passionate to want the other turtles to get important roles besides the ol' "Leo is the best".

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Werecat

Your best defense is speculation, that there ruins your credibility. and you didn't even answer my previous question; can you understand abstract stuff?

Speculation? I was RIGHT THERE in the episode! Leo was in the room, and ASKED about the technique. The others, who WATCHED from the doorway, didn't come in to ask, and didn't even seem interested. That's not speculation, it's observation and common sense aka logic. What's so danged abstract about that?! You're splitting hairs and grasping at straw men.

Oh, and you mean THIS question? V

"Oh boy. I am being honest, we are all mature enough, are you capable of critical thinking? Like can you answer abstract questions? or get abstract ideas without getting confused? To be honest, I find trouble understanding abstract too and it gets hard but this topic is simple. It seems like you won't get that Leo is a Marty Stu unless the writers openly express that he is in every sentence.

''Even to this day, he seems hell bent on refusing to acknowledge his shortcomings as the movie’s director''
And this is why he's so bad at what he does. If you won't listen to criticism, if you won't admit when you **** something up, then you will never honestly examine what you're creating, you will never improve, and you will keep making terrible garbage for people to mock until the day you die.''-ajdovbbbb, top comment.

Shortcomings, man, everyone has them. Acknowledge them and improve. I am sorry but I am not going to encourage ignorance.'


Honestly, I didn't think it was WORTH answering, because it's insulting, and rude. And arrogant in the extreme. Stop trolling for a flame-war. But okay, I'll answer- in a word- YES. I don't need writers to spoon-feed me something to see it, but I also don't try to go fishing for something that's just not there, either. I read into visual clues very well, thank you, and in fact, the clues were all there that the OPPOSITE of your claim is the case. There were plenty of hints as to how/why everything happened, for anyone who cared to look deeper than what's on the surface or in the dialog. So how's THAT for abstract for ya'?

Incidentally, my husband often accuses me of analyzing things to death, and then pointing out all the plot holes and tropes. Guess what? Really didn't see many here, unlike a lot of others. And I was LOOKING for them, after having read all the comments on the episode before I even watched it. Good episode, actually, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, and found little to complain about. There were FAR more in the Mutanimals one! The only one that I really found here was Baxter's line at the beginning when he brainwashed Karai.

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Speculation? I was RIGHT THERE in the episode! Leo was in the room, and ASKED about the technique. The others, who WATCHED from the doorway, didn't come in to ask, and didn't even seem interested. That's not speculation, it's observation and common sense aka logic. What's so danged abstract about that?! You're splitting hairs and grasping at straw men.

Oh, and you mean THIS question? V

"Oh boy. I am being honest, we are all mature enough, are you capable of critical thinking? Like can you answer abstract questions? or get abstract ideas without getting confused? To be honest, I find trouble understanding abstract too and it gets hard but this topic is simple. It seems like you won't get that Leo is a Marty Stu unless the writers openly express that he is in every sentence.

''Even to this day, he seems hell bent on refusing to acknowledge his shortcomings as the movie’s director''
And this is why he's so bad at what he does. If you won't listen to criticism, if you won't admit when you **** something up, then you will never honestly examine what you're creating, you will never improve, and you will keep making terrible garbage for people to mock until the day you die.''-ajdovbbbb, top comment.

Shortcomings, man, everyone has them. Acknowledge them and improve. I am sorry but I am not going to encourage ignorance.'


Honestly, I didn't think it was WORTH answering, because it's insulting, and rude. And arrogant in the extreme. Stop trolling for a flame-war. But okay, I'll answer- in a word- YES. I don't need writers to spoon-feed me something to see it, but I also don't try to go fishing for something that's just not there, either. I read into visual clues very well, thank you, and in fact, the clues were all there that the OPPOSITE of your claim is the case. There were plenty of hints as to how/why everything happened, for anyone who cared to look deeper than what's on the surface or in the dialog. So how's THAT for abstract for ya'?

Incidentally, my husband often accuses me of analyzing things to death, and then pointing out all the plot holes and tropes. Guess what? Really didn't see many here, unlike a lot of others. And I was LOOKING for them, after having read all the comments on the episode before I even watched it. Good episode, actually, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, and found little to complain about. There were FAR more in the Mutanimals one! The only one that I really found here was Baxter's line at the beginning when he brainwashed Karai.

To be honest this is what it is like talking to you.

It is like convincing Patrick that it is his wallet.

Raph said this
"...You did it solo. That is something none of us could do.''

Splinter said this
"...something...something...something...only a few martial artists can master.''

Raphael was taken out off-screen. Leo is the only one that puts up a struggle against Karai. Why couldn't the others do anything against Karai? It is not answered. We are just shown how awesome Leo is and is able to do what everyone else can not.

As for abstract, I was referring to classifying a Marty Stu since it seems like you need the writers to tell you that he was a Marty Stu for you to understand it.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Werecat

ARE YOU CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING ABSTRACT STUFF, THINGYS!? Maybe if I type in all caps you will answer. From my guesstimate, you are not capable of understanding abstract stuff, thingys, whatever. You seem like the type of person who is more practical and needs extensive concrete evidence to ever get the notion of anything.

I don't think it is fair to compare a Marty Stu in a well written storyline to a Marty Stu in a terribly written storyline. I am not saying any of the TMNT episodes are poorly written 'cause I think they are good enough with just a few imperfections. I think you are using a Marty Stu from a terribly written story and comparing it to every other story when that case is unique in its own right. People who use stories or whatever as examples are not the biblical definition of Marty Stus, it is rather subjective.
i
I like the Nick TMNT which is why I am passionate to want the other turtles to get important roles besides the ol' "Leo is the best".

OMFG! Of all the insulting, offensive things I've seen on here, this is one of the worst. YES, YOU TWIT- I DO understand abstract stuff/"thingies", apparently better than you do. The ONLY character in the show who has exhibited signs of being a sue-type is April. We've ALL seen it extensively in the series. In contrast, Leo has simply been- Leo. He's grown as a character, and this was one of the episodes that showed it. He has matured and improved, become better as a leader, and- well, I'd love it if they ALL had this much time and effort put into their development. Because that's what this episode was. Character development for Leo.

"People who use stories or whatever as examples are not the biblical definition of Marty Stus, it is rather subjective."

Okay, Now I know you have no clue how to tell a S(t)ue. The entire POINT of a Stu is that they are a "too perfect" character in ANY story- doesn't matter where. It's only as subjective as a person wants it to be. The definition originally pertained to Star Trek fan-fics, but has been expanded to include ANY such character, in ANY franchise or story. But the criteria are pretty standard, so I don't need to compare Stus from different stories, I just need to look at the basic traits of one, and see if Leo meets them. He doesn't. Whether or not a storyline is GOOD is also subjective, but I wasn't comparing stories anyway, just pointing out other instances that "might" point to a Stu-like character. And most of those instances, oddly enough, involve April, NOT Leo.

BTW, there IS no "biblical" definition, though I'm sure there are plenty of them IN the Bible. Since you seem to have such an aversion to READING stories to point out Stus, I'll save you the trouble. I can already think of at least ONE.....

[Leofan26]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Wow. Thank you for stating the obvious there. No kidding. Of course they are "the same" except for gender- although the point of that insert was to show HOW they are different. Ideals of masculine perfection are different from those of feminine perfection, BECAUSE of their gender. And yes, there ARE differences. A female Sue is going to be "pure", sweet, and loved by everyone, while a guy will be "rugged, strong, and broody". BOTH will be capable of doing ANYTHING they try, usually with little effort. And while Leo DID learn the new skill rather quickly, that's about the ONLY "Stu-ish" thing about him here. And yes, the show DID give reasons- just not in dialog. Don't TELL, SHOW!! They actually gave us all the reasons VISUALLY, instead of just throwing a line or two to "explain" everything. The only thing they "explained" in dialog was how/why he was able to master it after being poisoned- but everything else was in the animation. Perfectly understandable, and realistic.

He wasn't praised by "everybody"- just a quick "thank you and good job, bro!" from the group, without much hoopla. Seriously. that was IT. Nobody was gushing over how he saved them. Even Splinter played it down as just him becoming a better warrior. And called it a win, but that's about it. Whoopdie-friggin-do. Again- he is NOT turning into a Stu, even in this ONE EPSIODE!! If he was he'd suddenly know how to hack as well as Donnie, be as tough and strong as Raph, and funny and athletic as Mikey. He'd gain psychic powers like April, or be able to beat Shredder with one hand behind his back. As it is, he only beat Splinter because he was injured! So WHERE is the "Stu"??!! Not seein' one here, nope, nope.....

Ignore him man, he's not going to budge from what he believes no matter what. Thinks what says is the truth nothing else matters, he's like a brick wall.

He feels Leo a Gary Su or Marty Su, no ones going to change his mind on that. Why the topic is beyond me than. If we all just walk away from the insulting hypacrit and act like this thread isn't here it will stop.

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

OMFG! Of all the insulting, offensive things I've seen on here, this is one of the worst. YES, YOU TWIT- I DO understand abstract stuff/"thingies", apparently better than you do. The ONLY character in the show who has exhibited signs of being a sue-type is April. We've ALL seen it extensively in the series. In contrast, Leo has simply been- Leo. He's grown as a character, and this was one of the episodes that showed it. He has matured and improved, become better as a leader, and- well, I'd love it if they ALL had this much time and effort put into their development. Because that's what this episode was. Character development for Leo.

"People who use stories or whatever as examples are not the biblical definition of Marty Stus, it is rather subjective."

Okay, Now I know you have no clue how to tell a S(t)ue. The entire POINT of a Stu is that they are a "too perfect" character in ANY story- doesn't matter where. It's only as subjective as a person wants it to be. The definition originally pertained to Star Trek fan-fics, but has been expanded to include ANY such character, in ANY franchise or story. But the criteria are pretty standard, so I don't need to compare Stus from different stories, I just need to look at the basic traits of one, and see if Leo meets them. He doesn't. Whether or not a storyline is GOOD is also subjective, but I wasn't comparing stories anyway, just pointing out other instances that "might" point to a Stu-like character. And most of those instances, oddly enough, involve April, NOT Leo.

BTW, there IS no "biblical" definition, though I'm sure there are plenty of them IN the Bible. Since you seem to have such an aversion to READING stories to point out Stus, I'll save you the trouble. I can already think of at least ONE.....

Biblical, BIBLICAL, BIBLICAL! It is a urban term for someone who takes a certain thingy as truth and reveres it like a religious person does the bible. The formal term is just "On a great scale".

Yes, you can argue that what I say is subjective but at the same time I can say the samething about you! It is like the psychology story of how a person can argue that the world is round but so can the other person argue that the world is flat, neither can fully convince the other.

The thing is everyone has different upbringings, different experiences with different outlooks. Which is why most formal definitions are mutual understanding/agreement. Which is why I said the short precise definition of the Marty Stu is a mutual understanding because it isn't determined by subjective opinions.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Werecat

To be honest this is what it is like talking to you.

It is like convincing Patrick that it is his wallet.

Raph said this
"...You did it solo. That is something none of us could do.''

Splinter said this
"...something...something...something...only a few martial artists can master.''

Raphael was taken out off-screen. Leo is the only one that puts up a struggle against Karai. Why couldn't the others do anything against Karai? It is not answered. We are just shown how awesome Leo is and is able to do what everyone else can not.

As for abstract, I was referring to classifying a Marty Stu since it seems like you need the writers to tell you that he was a Marty Stu for you to understand it.

Why couldn't they? Oh, I don't know, maybe because Karai wasn't even "there"? They never "saw" her- just got bitten by her snakes. Not much they could do about that, as they didn't even SEE them. I don't see your point, as it's kind of moot. Not to mention ridiculous. Anyone with eyes could tell why they couldn't do what he did- they didn't learn the healing, and they never knew Karai had even attacked until they were bitten! Duh. And the entire "Leo is awesome" thing was already lampshaded/foreshadowed EARLIER in the episode, when Casey was going on about the movie to April! How HARD is that to figure out? No, really- did you just MISS the entire conversation? I caught what was going on as soon as that scene played. It was another in-world parallel to the actual episode.

Raph made ONE comment- and it was almost a throw-away, at that. So was Splinter's. TWO LINES. And from that, he's suddenly a Stu? Sorry, don't think so. It takes more than a couple of closing lines of dialog from grateful family to make a Stu. But, hey- go ahead and think that, if you want. No one's stopping you. But don't try to act as if your OPINION is cold hard FACT in the series, or insult and make assumptions about other people simply because they disagree with your "evidence". Which is pretty flimsy anyway, and wouldn't hold up even on Judge Judy.

Also, your little video is just- Well, I guess dumb clips are how SOME folks try to make arguments, but personally, I prefer to use actual facts and evidence from the show itself. And you haven't been able to refute a single one. So where's YOUR credibility? Apparently, it's in a pineapple under the sea....

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Werecat

Biblical, BIBLICAL, BIBLICAL! It is a urban term for someone who takes a certain thingy as truth and reveres it like a religious person does the bible. The formal term is just "On a great scale".

Yes, you can argue that what I say is subjective but at the same time I can say the samething about you! It is like the psychology story of how a person can argue that the world is round but so can the other person argue that the world is flat, neither can fully convince the other.

The thing is everyone has different upbringings, different experiences with different outlooks. Which is why most formal definitions are mutual understanding/agreement. Which is why I said the short precise definition of the Marty Stu is a mutual understanding because it isn't determined by subjective opinions.

None of this has ANY bearing on the topic, but thanks for pointing it out, Captain Obvious....

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by Leofan26

Ignore him man, he's not going to budge from what he believes no matter what. Thinks what says is the truth nothing else matters, he's like a brick wall.

He feels Leo a Gary Su or Marty Su, no ones going to change his mind on that. Why the topic is beyond me than. If we all just walk away from the insulting hypacrit and act like this thread isn't here it will stop.

Where have I insulted you? Give me one without your speculation, without your own assumption. Plain and simple. I share my honest opinion about you because you are ignorant to the truth just because you want to stick to your urban, BS, subjective definition of a Marty Stu. Which is very sloppy and poorly defined in the first place.

I was never confrontational. I said sorry and I shared my honest opinion of you. Now you want to twist it and call me a hypocrite when you can't even spell or properly comprehend my post without cherrypicking non-existant insults. You never gave a reasonable response either, like I asked, I guess it is because you have none.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

None of this has ANY bearing on the topic, but thanks for pointing it out, Captain Obvious....

Are you serious? You can't piece things together. What exactly are you having trouble piecing together? I can elaborate on it. Oh yeah, none of it. Ugh, I don't think it is possible to convince a stubborn texan. Oh wait calling you stubborn is an insult and so is texan. Oh no everything is an insult. I can't have a civil conversation with you, why?

edit: Oh yeah I didn't say sorry to you. Just the ignorant Leo guy. I is sorry. Can we move past this?
2nd edit note: Gosh I just noticed I am conforming to my own stereotype of how Canadians say sorry. Gosh.

[victory_angel]

If Leo was a Gary/Marty Stu

He wouldn't need Splinter because he would be Jonin ranked Ninja at the age of five.

He wouldn't need Donnie because he would be smart enough to cure mutations such as Karai.

He wouldn't need Raph because he'd be the strongest fighter of the team.

He wouldn't need Mikey because he'd be fun loving party guy.

However Leo's main problem is he doesn't trust his own instincts as a leader. In season 1 he idolizes Captain Ryan and even declares he would be a great leader like him one day.

In season 2 he doesn't trust in what his brothers have to offer the team. Instead he feels they should do what he believes Splinter wants.

Now in season three his recovery was psychological. When he's recovering he does doubt his ability to recover. However when his family is in danger he focuses on saving them and less on his injuries. And that enables him to save their lives.

Same thing with Deadly Venom. Yes, Leo learned the healing hands rather easily, but he was able to remember it and perform it because he was in a situation where his brothers and himself were going to die. Splinter already had his hands full with April and if he came to help them the five of them would be dead. Leo was determined to have his brothers come out of that situation alive no matter what. And that's how he was able to defeat Karai's venom. It doesn't make him more special or superior then everyone else. He was the person who knew what could be done to save his family and that his families very survival depended on him being able to do it.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Okay, now it's just getting annoying. Yeah, I think I'm done after this. But to defend Leofan once again (I know, I'm sort of a sucker for underdogs and those who get bullied or harassed.... ):

What speculation? Seriously, I've used MULTIPLE examples FROM THE EPISODE to poke holes in your idea of Leo as a Stu, and the best you can give me is- calling people narcissists who want to see "their favorite character be BETTER than everyone", or saying "I" can't understand abstract ideas? I call BS. I've given plenty of evidence to the contrary, but you still use the very BROAD, VAGUE definition of a Stu (as opposed to the SPECIFIC one I and others have provided) to declare him one. It's not speculation, it's simple logic and factual proof against your claim. But call it whatever you want. Doesn't change the fact that it's true.

And your opinion of ME and others here is seriously skewed, as Leo656 already pointed out. You can't make assumptions or claims about the personality or mental abilities about anyone here, because you know NOTHING about any of us. How were you confrontational? Let's see- you called someone a narcissist, twisted his comments out of context, did the same to others- including myself- and now you seem to think I'm incapable of understanding abstract ideas, when it's pretty clear from all the evidence I've given that I CAN. And now you insult someone for spelling errors, and insult my intelligence and mental facilities YET AGAIN. And "I'm" the stubborn one...? Sheesh. Reeeaal classy, there, dude.

As to why we can't have a civil conversation- maybe if you weren't so busy making assumptions and broad accusations about people, instead of bringing well-thought out points to the table, we could talk. As it is.... I can only wonder why you're so intent that Leo IS a Stu, when it's been shown by several folks repeatedly, that the evidence for it just isn't there. He has almost none of the traits, and certainly isn't anyone's "idealized" anything, much less a "perfect" character. He's growing and maturing, that's all. How can you not see that? He grew out of his Captain Ryan obsession, and is becoming his own kind of hero. A better one than he was in the first season, certainly, but not "better than" everyone else.

[Werecat]

Originally Posted by victory_angel

If Leo was a Gary/Marty Stu

He wouldn't need Splinter because he would be Jonin ranked Ninja at the age of five.

He wouldn't need Donnie because he would be smart enough to cure mutations such as Karai.

He wouldn't need Raph because he'd be the strongest fighter of the team.

He wouldn't need Mikey because he'd be fun loving party guy.

However Leo's main problem is he doesn't trust his own instincts as a leader. In season 1 he idolizes Captain Ryan and even declares he would be a great leader like him one day.

In season 2 he doesn't trust in what his brothers have to offer the team. Instead he feels they should do what he believes Splinter wants.

Now in season three his recovery was psychological. When he's recovering he does doubt his ability to recover. However when his family is in danger he focuses on saving them and less on his injuries. And that enables him to save their lives.

Same thing with Deadly Venom. Yes, Leo learned the healing hands rather easily, but he was able to remember it and perform it because he was in a situation where his brothers and himself were going to die. Splinter already had his hands full with April and if he came to help them the five of them would be dead. Leo was determined to have his brothers come out of that situation alive no matter what. And that's how he was able to defeat Karai's venom. It doesn't make him more special or superior then everyone else. He was the person who knew what could be done to save his family and that his families very survival depended on him being able to do it.

Good points. Oh yes, I remember when I diagnosed Leo for having an extreme case of Marty Stu disease. Is degrees considerable? No I think not...maybe...not sure...probably.

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

And your opinion of ME and others here is seriously skewed, as Leo656 already pointed out. You can't make assumptions or claims about the personality or mental abilities about anyone here, because you know NOTHING about any of us. How were you confrontational? Let's see- you called someone a narcissist, twisted his comments out of context, did the same to others- including myself- and now you seem to think I'm incapable of understanding abstract ideas, when it's pretty clear from all the evidence I've given that I CAN. And now you insult someone for spelling errors, and insult my intelligence and mental facilities YET AGAIN. And "I'm" the stubborn one...? Sheesh. Reeeaal classy, there, dude.

I dunno about that, I mean if someone started spewing disordered thoughts and did random acts I can safely assume he has skitzo. I remember I talked about this person with the guildies and they said "You can not claim someone has a personality disorder'' and he I found out the person I suspected did have skitzo, its a terrible disease really.

I think you need to reread my last post. I will give you a magnifying glass to read it as well
I is sorry
Being ignorant of your own shortcomings is just a downfall.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Sarcasm really does NOT become you, dude. Really.

And I am well aware of my own shortcomings, thank you, but lack of understanding of abstractions is NOT one of them. Had a WHOLE lot of study on the subject in high school during four years of high-level English lit and history, as a matter of fact. We even made a specific study of abstract art as a modern art period and how it was connected to the literature of the time when that was a big thing in the 20's and 30's (Picasso, Dali, etc.) So yeah, pretty familiar with the concept, but thanks for reminding me. Fun times.


*sigh* I'd like to say this has been like arguing with a fence post (since I'm from Texas, heh), but even the fence post will eventually admit defeat by falling over, given enough time and rot. This just feels like- talking to a statue. Except that it might eventually crack..... (I'm REAL good with metaphors, too!)