Nintendo 64 vs. Nintendo GameCube

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by Prowler

And what's wrong with N64 wrestling games? You think they've aged poorly? I haven't tried them out but judging from the videos and images I've seen, they look pretty dated. Although big fans of those games have told me that they actually play quite well still and that you need to ignore the dated graphics in order to enjoy them properly nowadays.

I was a huge Wrestlemania 2000 and No Mercy guy for a long time. But even I have to admit that they've gotten really dated. It was such a sad day when I first realized it wasn't as fun as I remembered. There's still a lot of great stuff about No Mercy that I wish would be incorporated into modern wrestling games but honestly, you'd have more fun with the new ones.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Turo602

I was s huge Wrestlemania 2000 and No Mercy guy for a long time. But even I have to admit that they've gotten really dated. It was such a sad day when I first realized it wasn't as fun as I remembered. There's still a lot of great stuff about No Mercy that I wish would be incorporated into modern wrestling games but honestly, you'd have more fun with the new ones.

Some people say No Mercy, in particular, has aged poorly and it's full of glitches. Is that true? And are they hard to overlook? I believe one thing that makes No Mercy so popular still is being able to create a lot of CAWs. Like, a wrestler's alternate outfit, can be a totally different wrestler with a different moveset, etc.

Btw, wasn't that TNA Impact game that came out back in 2007 or 2008 supposed to be influenced by No mercy gameplay wise, but it turned out to be a pretty poor received game in the end?

Speaking of non-wrestling games, F-Zero X really looks dated graphically speaking. hell, it wasn't particularly impressive from a graphic standpoint back then either, but nowadays it just looks kinda plain. GX, on the other hand, still looks amazing and better than many Wii games. It also gave some backstory and personality to the various characters. Not to mention an insanely hard story mode. Too bad it didn't have the death race mode from X, though. I loved that mode.

[Turo602]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Some people say No Mercy, in particular, has aged poorly and it's full of glitches. Is that true? And are they hard to overlook? I believe one thing that makes No Mercy so popular still is being able to create a lot of CAWs. Like, a wrestler's alternate outfit, can be a totally different wrestler with a different moveset, etc.

Btw, wasn't that TNA Impact game that came out back in 2007 or 2008 supposed to be influenced by No mercy gameplay wise, but it turned out to be a pretty poor received game in the end?

I don't know about any glitches but No Mercy was the best of all the wrestling games back in the day. If that game has aged poorly which I think it has, then the rest are worse. Aside from the CAWs, the gameplay was vastly superior to other N64 wrestling games.

I don't remember much about that TNA game, aside from it having like one good match type and awkward gameplay. I wouldn't compare it to No Mercy.

[Leo656]

No modern wrestling games until 2K14 actually felt like "wrestling". The moves, strikes, grappling and reversals were always too fast and lacked any impact. Too arcade-y. Photo-realistic graphics on top of a flimsy engine that nobody ever "loved" to start with, and only got minor tweaks every year for 15 years. They've all got their good and bad, but the only wrestling games ever made that a person could pick up and learn and actually get Great at immediately, were the N64 games. The SD series would mix up the controls every year - some years it'd be better, some years worse - and make it either too hard or too easy to do counters and reversals. And the AI in modern wrestling games is universally awful, with only two "difficulty settings": Test Dummy, or Block Everything. There's no balance. Meanwhile, there were dozens of moves in the N64 games that they never bothered putting into the newer games until a couple years ago, like the Torture Rack, or even a decent Piledriver. There's lots of little things the N64 games just did better. Basically, if you want a game where you just beat up the CPU in 2 minutes by spamming running grapples and then hitting a finisher, the new games are great. The N64 games had the actual back-and-forth of a real match, which, to me, always made it more exciting and fun.

Not that the newer games themselves are trash. A lot of them are just fine, and I honestly think 2K14 was the best overall wrestling game ever made. But I'd argue that 2/3 of the WWE games made since the N64 era have aged WAY worse than the N64 ones, in every way but the graphics. I mean, to this day there's still a ton of people who swear No Mercy is king. I disagree, BUT, I see where they're coming from, and nobody will ever even TRY to make that argument about, say, SvR 2008, or any game in that series, really, except HCTP or 2K14. And 2K14's biggest improvements were all based on ripping off the No Mercy grappling system. So they obviously did something right, back then.

As for "glitches", other than some 4-player slowdown in No Mercy I really don't know. Playing it a couple weeks ago, it was actually not anywhere near as bad as I remembered it, and the older games were smooth as ice. Having the RAM expansion helps though. If you like the general way the N64 games play, though, but HAVE to have better-looking graphics, the DoR series on the Cube is about 9/10s the same as No Mercy, but it's a little too fast (and everyone walks like Robocop ). Not perfect, but still much better grappling, striking, and reversals than the SD series.

TNA game is a very pretty waste of time. If you play it for 5 minutes, you've done everything. Not awful... but awfully disappointing. It's not even finished. Like 10 moves in the whole game. 4 CAW slots. No kidding. It's like a very large demo.

[shuriken]

^^ I dunno I may be biased but SVR 2k7 is fantastic, and my favorite wrasslin' game. Get 1-4 buddies of mine on multitap and have a royal rumble, Elimination Chamber match, or a money in the bank match and it is ON.
I haven't played anything newer than 2k13 but it's still good. As for No Mercy it holds up pretty well, as does Wrestlemania 2000 aside from graphics and some stiffness.
As for N-64 vs Game-cube, aside from the nostalgia factor there is really no contest. Game-cube all the way. Although I did play N-64 growing up more because it seems everyone had either that or ps1 at the time.

[Leo656]

2007? Really? That's an odd pick from that series. I mean, '08 was terrible by comparison, but after that they just got better every year until 2K14 perfected everything, finally, after 15 years of minor tweaks. Well... Story Editor was very glitchy and froze a lot. But everything else was just overwhelmingly good. I don't think it really can be improved on. 2K15 was prettier and had a couple more moves but it was a huge step down everywhere else.

I'd be curious as to what it is about 2007 that makes it great to you, but feel free to let me know Elsewhere, as I'm well aware most people here don't care about this conversation.

[Prowler]

Great post, Leo. Always a pleasure to get some of your wrestling vidya knowledge.

Outside of SmackDown games, I have only played DoR 2, which was actually my first ever wrestling game... well played a bit of that NES WWF game where you couldn't even grapple(and it had the nerve to call it self a wrestling game...) and that SNES WWF game that was a bit similar to Mortal Kombat in gameplay... which was odd.

Anyway, one thing I liked in DOR 2 was how you couldn't actually pull a finisher anytime like in SD! games. You had to actually work for it and then you had to press A+B and then had about 15 seconds to pull a special move on your opponent. No being able to store your finisher after just landing a few punches on your opponent and then using it anytime. Also, one thing that I REALLY dislike about the SD! games is the submission moves. Holy hell do they kill my fingers! Plus you gotta mash ALL buttons, while in DOR 2 all you had to do was tap A repeatedly. In SD! games I don't have much fun playing as Jericho, Benoit or Angle. Unless it's in SYM since there weren't any submission bars yet. Also, in DOR 2 you could pick between 4 different options when applying a hold. That was pretty cool and made for good strategies.

Ofc not everything is good. I wasn't much of a fan of the "revenge/recovering move" or wtv that was, though. Where if you were successful, both wrestlers moods would switch and you could suddenly win a match you were about to win. I guess it's realistic for "high spirit" to win you a match. After all, faces win matches like that all the time, don't they, despite being brutally beaten throughout it.

Another thing I enjoyed about it was how the matches seemed to flow well. How do I explain this... in SD! games, every time you pull a grapple or a finisher, you feel like you're watching some stock footage all over again. Hell, the wrestlers even change their positions in the ring as well of a sudden. I didn't get such feeling in DOR 2.

And ofc, the story and CAW modes as I had told you already, were great. Although the loading times really made CAW mode feel sluggish and like a chore at times, though.

I remember you saying that you can easily buy N64 wrestling games online for fairly cheap. What about the GC ones such as WM XIX and DOR 1? Any idea how much they go for?

As for the SD! series, HCTP was the best one I've played. And yes, in high difficulty, matches were longer mostly because the opponent blocked 9 out of 10 attacks. All you had to do was block/counter in time to avoid damage.

Originally Posted by shuriken

^^ I dunno I may be biased but SVR 2k7 is fantastic, and my favorite wrasslin' game. Get 1-4 buddies of mine on multitap and have a royal rumble, Elimination Chamber match, or a money in the bank match and it is ON.
I haven't played anything newer than 2k13 but it's still good. As for No Mercy it holds up pretty well, as does Wrestlemania 2000 aside from graphics and some stiffness.
As for N-64 vs Game-cube, aside from the nostalgia factor there is really no contest. Game-cube all the way. Although I did play N-64 growing up more because it seems everyone had either that or ps1 at the time.

SD vs. Raw 2007? I got bored of it fairly quickly. It did improve upon some things from SF vs. Raw 2006, such as the GM mode, the story mode(2006's was pretty bad) and giving wrestlers entrances for hell in a hell, steel cage and elimination chamber matches(dunno why they removed those from 2006). But it didn't feel like a completely different game from SvR 2006. See, the SD! series started to feel like a generic sports series like FIFA, NBA 2k, etc. with the name change to SvR. The first 6 SD! games are all distinctly different, but SvR 1, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, etc. all look and feel essentially the same. If only wrestling games had variety nowadays like they did back then and Jakks/pacific could go back to making an exclusive series for each system.

And ye, it was usually PS1 or N64. I had N64 and Saturn, though. But it wasn't that rare to find people with Saturns here. I recall it being quite popular in its first year, actually.

Originally Posted by Leo656

2007? Really? That's an odd pick from that series. I mean, '08 was terrible by comparison, but after that they just got better every year until 2K14 perfected everything, finally, after 15 years of minor tweaks. Well... Story Editor was very glitchy and froze a lot. But everything else was just overwhelmingly good. I don't think it really can be improved on. 2K15 was prettier and had a couple more moves but it was a huge step down everywhere else.

I'd be curious as to what it is about 2007 that makes it great to you, but feel free to let me know Elsewhere, as I'm well aware most people here don't care about this conversation.

I do, though. And this is my thread, so feel free to talk about it. Screw the haters.

[Leo656]

All the Gamecube wrestling games are about $5 each. Anywhere from $2 to $8. Probably find 'em at a flea market or yard sale for a buck each. You could probably get a bundle with WM XIX and both DoRs for like $10-15 off of Amazon. Don't go near X8, though. Just don't.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by Prowler

And what's wrong with N64 wrestling games? You think they've aged poorly? I haven't tried them out but judging from the videos and images I've seen, they look pretty dated. Although big fans of those games have told me that they actually play quite well still and that you need to ignore the dated graphics in order to enjoy them properly nowadays.

Nothing is wrong with them. They're great and I played them a lot. I just find that in every N64 discussion there will be at least one person who won't shut up about them, and big fans of them generally bring them up constantly regardless, because there's some kind of weird "hardcore wrestling fan who also plays videogames" street cred associated with them.

Though wrestling fans have an annoying tendency to bring up the fact they're wrestling fans and/or make wrestling references in every other conversation, so part of my annoyance with these games (that I very much still like and used to absolutely love) extends to the general annoyance I feel with that particular quirk of modern wrestling fans these days.

Edit: Oh, also, the thing that makes the N64 wrestling games more fun to play than modern ones is that they were games first and wrestling products second. Slapping the WWF license on an incredibly tight and satisfying grapple/strike/reversal engine meant that even though they do a poor job of emulating the spectacle of an actual wrestling match, they were, mechanically, super enjoyable. As the genre grew and became more about reproducing lavish entrances and accurate wrestler models, it got away from the part where it's just a super fun game, regardless of the license. More time is spent on recreating the slick broadcast standards of the WWE and less on the actual game part of it. Which is why WWE All-Stars was the most fun wrestling game of the past generation; it was built on the foundations of a strong engine and mechanics and worked up from there.

[oldmanwinters]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Yea, the N64 controller d-pad... what games used it?

N64 had a huge controller. I liked it at the time, but GameCube had a better one. The best Nintendo controller will always be SNES, imo.

I'd be happy if the N64 d-pad at least allowed me to navigate menus, but it seems that few games even offer that degree of functionality.

Honestly, I'm curious. What games actually made notable use of the N64 D-pad?

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Peanut

there's some kind of weird "hardcore wrestling fan who also plays videogames" street cred associated with them.

What is that?! I noticed it in recent years, I thought maybe I was just imagining things.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Leo656

All the Gamecube wrestling games are about $5 each. Anywhere from $2 to $8. Probably find 'em at a flea market or yard sale for a buck each. You could probably get a bundle with WM XIX and both DoRs for like $10-15 off of Amazon. Don't go near X8, though. Just don't.

That bad, huh?

Originally Posted by Peanut

Nothing is wrong with them. They're great and I played them a lot. I just find that in every N64 discussion there will be at least one person who won't shut up about them, and big fans of them generally bring them up constantly regardless, because there's some kind of weird "hardcore wrestling fan who also plays videogames" street cred associated with them.

Though wrestling fans have an annoying tendency to bring up the fact they're wrestling fans and/or make wrestling references in every other conversation, so part of my annoyance with these games (that I very much still like and used to absolutely love) extends to the general annoyance I feel with that particular quirk of modern wrestling fans these days.

Edit: Oh, also, the thing that makes the N64 wrestling games more fun to play than modern ones is that they were games first and wrestling products second. Slapping the WWF license on an incredibly tight and satisfying grapple/strike/reversal engine meant that even though they do a poor job of emulating the spectacle of an actual wrestling match, they were, mechanically, super enjoyable. As the genre grew and became more about reproducing lavish entrances and accurate wrestler models, it got away from the part where it's just a super fun game, regardless of the license. More time is spent on recreating the slick broadcast standards of the WWE and less on the actual game part of it. Which is why WWE All-Stars was the most fun wrestling game of the past generation; it was built on the foundations of a strong engine and mechanics and worked up from there.

I do agree with you that plenty of wrestling fans are obnoxious nerds, but I haven't seen anything like that ITT thus far. It's not like Leo has anything to prove. He's even a wrestler. Who doesn't know already that he's a big wrestling fan? Not to mention that the Drome has a lot of people who have knwon each other for years and there's a significant amount of wrestling fans here, so I don't see the issue with someone bringing up those games since there will most definitely be more people who are/were into them as well. And since we're talking about N64 and GC games, might as well cover all genres. Nowadays they're just focusing on graphics and "realism" as you've said. Which is silly, because wrestling isn't a real sport. Its games should be treated more like fighting games than sports ones. I have more fun with Shut Your Mouth than with SvR 2006 or 2007.

Also, I agree with you that older wrestling games did seem more diverse and unique.

Originally Posted by Powder

What is that?! I noticed it in recent years, I thought maybe I was just imagining things.

I must say I've never noticed this. I didn't know there were wrestling fans who strictly played wrestling games and nothing else. I have, however, met wrestling fans who didn't like wrestling games as a whole because they thought no game could accurately emulate the wrestling experience.

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by Powder

What is that?! I noticed it in recent years, I thought maybe I was just imagining things.

You definitely aren't. I think it's because they are unarguably good games that were (this has changed a great deal) generally unknown to non-wrestling fans on a console with an incredibly limited library. It's less common knowledge, therefore, in accordance with nerd culture, whoever knows about them is clearly the superior dork.

Originally Posted by Prowler

but I haven't seen anything like that ITT thus far.

OK? I said I was surprised it took so long for someone to bring it up, then explained why when you assumed it was because I thought they were bad. I didn't make any qualitative statements about the conversation in this thread one way or the other.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by Peanut

You definitely aren't. I think it's because they are unarguably good games that were (this has changed a great deal) generally unknown to non-wrestling fans on a console with an incredibly limited library. It's less common knowledge, therefore, in accordance with nerd culture, whoever knows about them is clearly the superior dork.



OK? I said I was surprised it took so long for someone to bring it up, then explained why when you assumed it was because I thought they were bad. I didn't make any qualitative statements about the conversation in this thread one way or the other.

Well, sometimes it's hard to interpret posts on an internet message board since you don't hear someone's voice and its tone, so never mind that.

And yes, if anyone thinks they're superior because they've heard of WWF No mercy then they're silly and deluded since Wrestling isn't mainstream. Then again, I cant' say I've ever seen someone act that way. Although I'm not surprised you have. Nothing social awkward nerds do surprise me anymore.

[TheCanadiandrome]

I guess I'm a superior dork lol! And Leo I didn't think X8 was bad

[Leo656]

Hm. I disagree.

It's definitely pretty "bad" compared to XIX and both DoRs, at the very least. And it was blatantly unfinished, that didn't help. I'unno, didn't like it. Really tried to. Every few years I try it again, since I can still play XIX or DoR for hours, but I just don't have any fun at all with X8. It's so clunky and nothing quite works right. Just can't recommend it.

I went to go pick up X8 on launch day and there were already a stack of returns on the counter at GameStop. Never saw that one before. That should've been a sign, I guess. But at least I saved $5 just for buying it after lunch. Least someone's having fun with it.

[TheCanadiandrome]

Well if or when I get w GC I plan to buy all the WWE games

[shuriken]

Originally Posted by Leo656

2007? Really? That's an odd pick from that series. I mean, '08 was terrible by comparison, but after that they just got better every year until 2K14 perfected everything, finally, after 15 years of minor tweaks. Well... Story Editor was very glitchy and froze a lot. But everything else was just overwhelmingly good. I don't think it really can be improved on. 2K15 was prettier and had a couple more moves but it was a huge step down everywhere else.

I'd be curious as to what it is about 2007 that makes it great to you, but feel free to let me know Elsewhere, as I'm well aware most people here don't care about this conversation.

Well in a nutshell that was when they introduced the Money in the Bank, the soundtrack is awesome, I really liked GM mode, the varying weight classes that prevented a 200 pounder from picking up BigShow, The roster is pretty great (if Jericho, Punk and Christian were in it it'd be perfect) plus a tiny bit of nostalgia. I know its not the best (better than anything before 2k10 IMO) but like I said its my fave. Although 2k8 is pretty bad...

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by shuriken

Well in a nutshell that was when they introduced the Money in the Bank, the soundtrack is awesome, I really liked GM mode, the varying weight classes that prevented a 200 pounder from picking up BigShow, The roster is pretty great (if Jericho, Punk and Christian were in it it'd be perfect) plus a tiny bit of nostalgia. I know its not the best (better than anything before 2k10 IMO) but like I said its my fave. Although 2k8 is pretty bad...

I liked how they tried to change-up the control scheme a bit, but those mini-games during matches got old pretty fast, imo.

The GM mode was quite improved upon, though. And you could even change each wrestlers rating, although I've never done it. But still not good enough to satisfy people who play EWR.

And good call on the weight class difference. Shawn Michaels shouldn't really be able to pick up Big Show with much ease.

In terms of roster, the best wrestling game I've played was HCTP. SYM had a pretty decent roster as well.

[Leo656]

I hate the WWE roster and never, ever touch any of those guys except when I "Have" to to get Achievements or unlock stuff, which I usually do first thing so I never have to waste time playing as those lame dweebs again. Top to bottom, 2K14 probably has the best mix of the best guys from the 80s to now. Although Virtual Pro 64 has an AMAZING roster, just no WWF guys. Which is fine with me.

The Legends roster and the 100 CAW slots put 2K14 way over, for me. I seriously could not care less about WWE wrestlers, so they're always my jobbers. Any wrestling game for me mostly flies on how good the CAW is. 2K14 was perfect, between the Legends and the CAWs you never had to touch the "real" roster at all. I had a show running every day in Universe Mode, almost 100% created people and Legends, with all the WWE guys marginalized on the crappy Friday night show.