Max Landis's pitch for TMNT 2

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Never said it was an awesome idea. Never said it were great/fantastic ideas. I never even said it was good ideas. And never said that it would be the kind of flick that I wanted.

I just like the fact that the guy seemed to put at least a 'Little' Thought into the characterizations of the characters, unlike the recent TMNT flicks. THAT's what I appreciated.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Words fail me.

All I am now is utter seething burning rage that somebody like this ever said anything in public regarding my favorite franchise.

[IndigoErth]

Or for that matter be a serious danger zone of having the right connections and prior work.

Thank you Dave Green. Phew. (Not that what did happen is without it's flaws, but you prob didn't have much say in the script you had to work with anyhow.)

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Again...I'm not saying the pitch is fantastic or great. Or even good...

I guess I just don't truly get some of the huge reactions, like someone asking whether the guy is gay, and so forth. Especially after seeing (in my opinion) the worst done to these characters (boners, fart jokes, CHUD/Shrek/Juiced Up Steroid-Abusing looks, Megan Fox, etc.)

I've seen one person actually explain his viewpoint (the beauty and the beast thing) which I disagree with...

I can perfectly see why the Turtles would want to be human. It's what anybody would feel if they were in the Turtles' position.

On one hand, you can be human and get a girlfriend, a life without living in disease infested sewers or having to hide otherwise you'll get dissected, and never even being able to make too many friends for fear of being caught. Or if you want one day to have kids/etc. then you'd have the choice. In other words, what a lot of teens do think about and have an actual future.

On the other hand, you'd more than likely die alone with your 3 to 4 family members in a sewer.

The Beauty and the Beast analogy is pure fantasy and pure BS. It doesn't work that way in the real word. I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't. For every single person? No. There are people who can see over that which is fantastic.

But from what I've seen in today's age, that isn't the majority of folks' viewpoints. Again, that's the sad but honest reality in today's age.

And in reality, we'd all want the 'cure to go from A Turtle to A Human'. I'm sorry, I don't buy the 'i'll stick to being a Turtle/mutant/etc. just because' argument...it just feels forced, weak, and Hollywood BS.

Even WE/OURSELVES (a lot, can't speak for all) were talking about how ugly the Turtles look (and still look) in these new films.

Don's characterization I could see. A smart guy wanting to belong and doesn't feel connected to his brothers. So I can see Max's point about that.

For Mikey, I can definitely understand the idea of him wanting to see the world.

Leo wanting to honor Splinter? We all can agree with that part of the pitch. If Leo got Splinter's permission and lead a certain good faction of the Foot (for good, not evil)...I think that's actually an interesting idea (especially to come further into play in a future story/sequel).

I like the idea of Leo fighting some Mousers (for action/visual style). Mikey taking on Bebop & Rocksteady by himself seems pretty cool for his character (showing that he's a physical force and not just a mouth piece). Don saving some scientists and having personal friends to call his own is another interesting idea (not too many incarnations that have Donny getting outside human friends).

I don't care for Max's pitch on Fall Out Boy (don't care for their music). The 'actress later turning into a turtle idea' isn't that appealing and seems pretty much of an 'OC put into a Fan Fic' approach. The Splinter having the last line of 'Cool Dude' is atrocious.

So I don't mind some of the stuff that he said (and some I did mind). I would rather just see great fight scenes mixed in with a lot of 'family downtime aka Mikey pranking Raph, Raph helping Donnie fix stuff, Raph and Mikey fighting over video games, etc.' to bring them down to our level and be relatable.


I guess I just don't get the reason for the whole 'maybe he's gay' or 'he's disturbed like his dad' and such type of comments.

[Commenter 42]

WTF did I just watch.


Donatello eavesdropping is kind of interesting, but the rest of it was a very poor adaptation. All he really did was write an hyper emo episode of CW trash.

Max Landis is the face of tumblr. Dude would love to make-out with himself.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Ramboraph4life aka Matt

I've seen one person actually explain his viewpoint (the beauty and the beast thing) which I disagree with...

I can perfectly see why the Turtles would want to be human. It's what anybody would feel if they were in the Turtles' position.

On one hand, you can be human and get a girlfriend, a life without living in disease infested sewers or having to hide otherwise you'll get dissected, and never even being able to make too many friends for fear of being caught. Or if you want one day to have kids/etc. then you'd have the choice. In other words, what a lot of teens do think about and have an actual future.

On the other hand, you'd more than likely die alone with your 3 to 4 family members in a sewer.

The Beauty and the Beast analogy is pure fantasy and pure BS. It doesn't work that way in the real word. I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't. For every single person? No. There are people who can see over that which is fantastic.

But from what I've seen in today's age, that isn't the majority of folks' viewpoints. Again, that's the sad but honest reality in today's age.

And in reality, we'd all want the 'cure to go from A Turtle to A Human'. I'm sorry, I don't buy the 'i'll stick to being a Turtle/mutant/etc. just because' argument...it just feels forced, weak, and Hollywood BS.

Not my argument. My argument is only a human would want to be human, again, if for example they were "disfigured" or some ugly version of a human. That's natural. We'd all want to be normal, but that then introduces our definition of normality. Bebop and Rocksteady would probably freak out, if in this world Yoshi is Splinter, likely the same. They'd probably want to be "cured", unless of course, they prefer their new selves.

But imagine yourself as something other than human. That would be how you define normality. Becoming human would be abnormal, just like for you, suddenly being a goldfish would be, abnormal.
Like I said, it's kind of the argument that I secretly long to be white, or that Lesbians actually just need the right "man".
So yeah, wanting to become Human is total absolute ********, if anything, they'd want to be cured, and return to being a turtle, as that would define normality for them.

It's a question of perspective.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

But imagine yourself as something other than human. That would be how you define normality. Becoming human would be abnormal, just like for you, suddenly being a goldfish would be, abnormal.
Like I said, it's kind of the argument that I secretly long to be white, or that Lesbians actually just need the right "man".
So yeah, wanting to become Human is total absolute ********, if anything, want to be cured, and return to being a turtle, as that would define normality for them.

It's a question of perspective.

I'm sorry, but I still disagree (like you said, it's perspective. I just do not agree with your perspective). I don't think that's the same thing. It makes perfect sense to me that 4 brothers who live in fear of being caught/dissected, living in disease-infested/stank sewers, and have only themselves and no choice to have a love life, kids, a house with two cars, etc. (and then getting the choice to change that) is not the same as 'lesbian, non-white, etc.)

I mean, isn't that part of the reason why Raph is so angry about life and the world? Because he can't even do something as simple as 'go to the movies' (let alone the bigger/more important stuff) without risking being seen (thus the possibility of finding out about his family), caught, dissected, and so forth?

To be honest, the better comparison is the 'rags to riches' tales (just not in the monetary sense). Or having a life that you feel sucks (you hate your job, or the town you're in, or whatever) and you say 'screw it, I'm going to grab the chance myself to get a better life' and you do. Which (in my opinion) would be why the Turtles would want to be human.

[IndigoErth]

Though why would Leo even head a good faction of The Foot, instead of just being/remaining an entirely separate entity?

Sure, I believe (through only vague memory) there is, as he speaks about, one instance of Splinter having been a part of the The Foot before it turned bad - in the '87 series I think, yes? - but this guy proposes this as a sequel to 2014 and clearly that is not this Foot and the reason he suggests of Splinter for Leo even wanting to can't exist here.


Tell you what... in the book for the actual sequel, after the Turtles break off in pairs after their fight they do talk about what they might do with their lives were they human (or I suppose if they simply had the freedom). Donnie gets Leo to open up and, after clarifying that talking about this is only a game, he says that "theoretically" he (predictably) always thought it would be nice to open a dojo and teach the next generation. It's predictable for him, but...it's him. I'd rather that than wanting to be in the Foot for no good reason that would even inspire him to want to associate with that name to begin with.

Spoiler:

If curious - in the book Donnie says he'd move to California and get a job in the computer industry.

Mikey would "...rock the extreme game circuit. Travel the world, city to city." (So there are some elements this guy is curiously close on...)

Raph thinks he'd go military, special forces, Navy SEALs or Green Berets. "Maybe I'd even form my own division -- SEAL Team Turtle. Has a nice ring to it." (Which I've actually joked about before if the Turtles ended up known and allied with the government and military, being Turtles Special Ops. lol)

Btw I think this is prob where the "disguised" wing suit figure comes from, Mikey kids him about the "SEAL Team Turtle" thing in the plane before they jump.

The human thing... honestly, I think I'd be agreeing with Leo (in the actual film), so though it may sound like an unimaginable choice to remain in the difficult life that you know, if it requires fundamentally changing who you are and you aren't okay with that... yeah, I could see saying no. I wouldn't want to do it either. No more than I'd get plastic surgery in real life to change my appearance to something I felt was more attractive. Some people would, others would not. Some people are the types that accept the hand that is dealt to them and work with what they've got, even if it's a challenge. I understand his being against it. I could not change myself and look in the mirror and ever feel normal or right about it, it just wouldn't be me. (And before someone brings up what if it was plastic surgery to fix terrible burn scarring or something... I dunno. Such an injury leaves you different already against your will.)

If these films continued, I'd far more wish to see them carefully gain more acceptance over time as they are. A lot more meaning in something hard won. They've got friends in the police department now, so they've got a bit of backup to stand behind them and help protect their well being.

[Commenter 42]

They are not humans. It's really that simple.

Originally Posted by Ramboraph4life aka Matt

It makes perfect sense to me that 4 brothers who live in fear of being caught/dissected, living in disease-infested/stank sewers, and have only themselves and no choice to have a love life, kids, a house with two cars, etc.

Maybe these are things you want. You're projecting an human ideal. I don't have two cars. I don't want two cars. I don't even want one car. I hate cars.
They're destructive and expensive. I'd rather cars didn't exist, to be frank. Guess I'm not living the dream...

Originally Posted by Ramboraph4life aka Matt

I mean, isn't that part of the reason why Raph is so angry about life and the world? Because he can't even do something as simple as 'go to the movies' (let alone the bigger/more important stuff) without risking being seen (thus the possibility of finding out about his family), caught, dissected, and so forth?

You're really caught up on the dissection angle. Who started the dissection myth? why is the the first thing you go to? If anything,. yeah, humans would probably kill them, but that's a different fear.

Lots of folks want to kill blacks, I'm not keen to be anything like them, at all. I don't want to be a part of their world. That's Ariel, in a story about how women must, be transformed and give up a part of themselves to live happily with a man. Kinda screwed up logic, but there you have it.

And who said Raphs' problem stems from not being normal? Maybe he's pissed because he's the shortest? Maybe he's aggressive cause he's got worms? Maybe he's a closet homosexual? Maybe he hates HUMANS and wishes he could just go back to being a turtle, because Humans wouldn't accept him.

Originally Posted by Ramboraph4life aka Matt

To be honest, the better comparison is the 'rags to riches' tales (just not in the monetary sense). Or having a life that you feel sucks (you hate your job, or the town you're in, or whatever) and you say 'screw it, I'm going to grab the chance myself to get a better life' and you do. Which (in my opinion) would be why the Turtles would want to be human.

The larger point, is that the message to kids that you're proposing is simply self centered, materialistic, and extremely myopic.
You're setting up a story where the central characters are told they are unfit, and don't belong to society, so they have to change themselves, and prove their worth to everyone despite being rejected.
In other words, intolerance is the fault of the judged, not the judge; the victim should make amends for being an other.

Sorry man. This isn't rags to riches, which in and of itself is a horrible story to teach children.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Though why would Leo even head a good faction of The Foot, instead of just being/remaining an entirely separate entity?

Sure, I believe (through only vague memory) there is, as he speaks about, one instance of Splinter having been a part of the The Foot before it turned bad - in the '87 series I think, yes? - but this guy proposes this as a sequel to 2014 and clearly that is not this Foot and the reason he suggests of Splinter for Leo even wanting to can't exist here.


Tell you what... in the book for the actual sequel, after the Turtles break off in pairs after their fight they do talk about what they might do with their lives were they human (or I suppose if they simply had the freedom). Donnie gets Leo to open up and, after clarifying that talking about this is only a game, he says that "theoretically" he (predictably) always thought it would be nice to open a dojo and teach the next generation. It's predictable for him, but...it's him. I'd rather that than wanting to be in the Foot for no good reason that would even inspire him to want to associate with that name to begin with.

Spoiler:

If curious - in the book Donnie says he'd move to California and get a job in the computer industry.

Mikey would "...rock the extreme game circuit. Travel the world, city to city." (So there are some elements this guy is curiously close on...)

Raph thinks he'd go military, special forces, Navy SEALs or Green Berets. "Maybe I'd even form my own division -- SEAL Team Turtle. Has a nice ring to it." (Which I've actually joked about before if the Turtles ended up known and allied with the government and military, being Turtles Special Ops. lol)

Btw I think this is prob where the "disguised" wing suit figure comes from, Mikey kids him about the "SEAL Team Turtle" thing in the plane before they jump.

The human thing... honestly, I think I'd be agreeing with Leo (in the actual film), so though it may sound like an unimaginable choice to remain in the difficult life that you know, if it requires fundamentally changing who you are and you aren't okay with that... yeah, I could see saying no. I wouldn't want to do it either. No more than I'd get plastic surgery in real life to change my appearance to something I felt was more attractive. Some people would, others would not. Some people are the types that accept the hand that is dealt to them and work with what they've got, even if it's a challenge. I understand his being against it. I could not change myself and look in the mirror and ever feel normal or right about it, it just wouldn't be me. (And before someone brings up what if it was plastic surgery to fix terrible burn scarring or something... I dunno. Such an injury leave you different already against your will.)

Well, it would just depend on the story. For example, if some of his brothers didn't want to be Ninjas (Don wanted to stick with just staying at home and being a scientist, if Mikey wanted to see the world or just stay at home and play games/relax/skate, and Raph didn't want to follow Leo's lead) but Leo did (perhaps he has enjoyed/become accustomed/feels it is his lease on life to do this)...then instead of forcing his brothers into that path, he'd go with a new faction to patrol (but come home each night to his brothers/etc.)

Or, perhaps Leo wants to 'do good in the city' but he feels compelled to not put his brothers' into mortal danger. So he feels (in a way) more comfortable leading a faction of the Foot which aren't his family (thus when danger occurs, then at least his family wouldn't be in a crossfire or so forth). Again, it would just depend on the writing and how far you want to delve into Leo's psyche/frame of mind/etc.


I still don't get the 'human' argument. Honestly, I would think that Leo was being an idiot, to be bluntly honest about it (nothing against you).

And I know you brought up the 'burn/scarring' thing. But that would be the same thing. To me, it's definitely more understandable that people would definitely be up for fixing their 'burned/scarred' selves instead of going 'eh, i'm burned. Oh well. I'll live with it.'

Granted, if you wanted to go 'oh well, I'm burned. I'll live with it'? Good on them. I just think it's more rational to think that more people would be willing to want to get 'fixed up as much as they could' instead of remaining that way. That's all.

I mean...in a way your own avatar kinda tells that. Take Leo's face, but change it a bet to 'make it look better' (actually, I won't put words into your mouth on that).

But there have been many discussions on how 'ugly the Turtles look' and how we'd 'like to see their faces look different'. Which, in a way, is a form of facial surgery.

[Commenter 42]

except, the ugly bayturtles are not THE Ninja Turtles.

Infact, I'm inclined to imagine those movies never happened.

But this does raise the question...

Is Max Landis responsible for the "becoming human" component of PDMT2?

Is he to blame?

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Ramboraph4life aka Matt

I mean...in a way your own avatar kinda tells that. Take Leo's face, but change it a bet to 'make it look better' (actually, I won't put words into your mouth on that).

But there have been many discussions on how 'ugly the Turtles look' and how we'd 'like to see their faces look different'. Which, in a way, is a form of facial surgery.

Touché.

But to be fair I'm not really one for changing avatars and that's from back when I was still really off on their designs. Though I admittedly kinda adore 2014 Leo now as I do many other versions, I still like that pic as simply a cool meeting between old and new. It kind of stopped being a personal statement a while back.

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Is Max Landis responsible for the "becoming human" component of PDMT2?

Is he to blame?

Been wondering. Since that is rather...coincidental? Or is he just talking out of his butt, making up stuff after already knowing about it. (Maybe not, but I know nothing of this person or his believability.)

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

They are not humans. It's really that simple. Maybe these are things you want. You're projecting an human ideal. I don't have two cars. I don't want two cars. I don't even want one car. I hate cars.
They're destructive and expensive. I'd rather cars didn't exist, to be frank. Guess I'm not living the dream...

You're really caught up on the dissection angle. Who started the dissection myth? why is the the first thing you go to? If anything,. yeah, humans would probably kill them, but that's a different fear.


And who said Raphs' problem stems from not being normal? Maybe he's pissed because he's the shortest? Maybe he's aggressive cause he's got worms? Maybe he's a closet homosexual? Maybe he hates HUMANS and wishes he could just go back to being a turtle, because Humans wouldn't accept him.

The larger point, is that the message to kids that you're proposing is simply self centered, materialistic, and extremely myopic.
You're setting up a story where the central characters are told they are unfit, and don't belong to society, so they have to change themselves, and prove their worth to everyone despite being rejected.
In other words, intolerance is the fault of the judged, not the judge; the victim should make amends for being an other.

Sorry man. This isn't rags to riches, which in and of itself is a horrible story to teach children.

But they would be raised by human ideals. Not animal ideals. Whether through Television, or books, or Pop Culture, or so forth. They would have human-like emotions, thoughts, and feelings. So it'd be easy to see that they/themselves would/could get those same urge to have those 'human ideals' if raised for years with the books, TV, and just outside environment/arena of humans to want those same 'human ideals'. Whether you think that's right or wrong for them to do, it would be understandable if they did feel that way, let alone wanted that.


The two cars things was just a generalization. Not meant to be as specific as 'they want that and nothing else, and you must have 2 cars or else'. I don't have a car either.

'Why do you go to the dissection angle'. Because anytime we, as a species, find any new creature or new form of life? Sooner or later, it'll get captured for studies, brought back, and (sooner or later) will be dissected to "learn more" about it.

As for the Raph question...it can be all of those things. It can be none of those things. It just depends on the viewer (or if the writer puts some work into it) and what that person wants to interpret it. When I read comics, watch movies, and so forth with the Raph character...that's how I interpret his character. If you don't, then oh well.

As for your last point...well, I don't agree with your assessment and won't even get into it with you.

I really don't get the whole 'rags to riches is a horrible story for kids' thing. I guess perhaps in the way it's told by the writer...but if told well, then I think those kind of stories (Cinderella, Rocky, The Pursuit of Happiness) work well.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

except, the ugly bayturtles are not THE Ninja Turtles.

Sure, to us.

But to some, they are the Ninja Turtles.

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Touché.

But to be fair I'm not really one for changing avatars and that's from back when I was still really off on their designs. Though I admittedly kinda adore 2014 Leo now as I do many other versions, I still like that pic as simply a cool meeting between old and new. It kind of stopped being a personal statement a while back.

Ok then, that's no problem. But at one point, you and others did (and to a lot of us, still do) think that they looked ugly as hell or at the very least went 'Eh, What?'. And, perhaps at one point had thought 'man, I wish those designs and faces would change'.

It's just something I had to bring up. It's a discussion of 'don't change what you look like, don't change who you are' and yet at the same time we were going 'Please change those ugly as Shrek faces', some people having arguments on 'nostrils', and so forth way back in 2014 (and even nowadays).

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Ramboraph4life aka Matt

Sure, to us.

But to some, they are the Ninja Turtles.

Blasphemy.



no, but seriously...

[RETTEB SNATAS]

.........

[ZariusTwo]

I have a lot of time for Landis. His Superman: American Alien comic book series is excellent. His deconstruction of the Turtles relationships sounds like the kick starter for a nice journey the whole film, and he makes it clear Leonardo wanted to join a redeemed Foot Clan.

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Is he to blame?

He said they were late in the scripting, so maybe the idea already existed and Dave clued him into that part of the process, which inspired part of the pitch.

[thundermaster612]

Max, don't try to Landis, or anything, on TMNT ever again.

see what I did there?

[Vicky82]

Who the hell is Max Landis????????

[The Deadman]

If he admitted his pitch was stupid, why would he even think of submitting it?