Is there no such thing as "choice"? If there is, how is there?

[Andrew NDB]

If we accept that we as people are but the sum of our memories (the breadth of our lives, what has been absorbed into our brains from the people we've met, experiences we've had, books we've read, bad TV we've watched and everything else) -- and we kind of have to, don't we? -- is there really any actual "choice"? i.e., if I decide to go to the store at lunch time and grab a bag of Fun Yuns... is it not because basically the conscious sum of all of my memories is compelling me to do that?

I mean, you can throw things like brain chemistry and different chemical balances or imbalances within the body out there as possible variables... but even then, these aren't things under our control either.

Unless you're religious, of course. If you're religious the answer will be "Of course there's a choice, you have a soul." But if you don't subscribe to that...?

[TurtleWA]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

https://img00.deviantart.net/b7dd/i/...en-d4anslb.jpg

If we accept that we as people are but the sum of our memories (the breadth of our lives, what has been absorbed into our brains from the people we've met, experiences we've had, books we've read, bad TV we've watched and everything else) -- and we kind of have to, don't we? -- is there really any actual "choice"? i.e., if I decide to go to the store at lunch time and grab a bag of Fun Yuns... is it not because basically the conscious sum of all of my memories is compelling me to do that?

I mean, you can throw things like brain chemistry and different chemical balances or imbalances within the body out there as possible variables... but even then, these aren't things under our control either.

Unless you're religious, of course. If you're religious the answer will be "Of course there's a choice, you have a soul." But if you don't subscribe to that...?

Isn’t this similar to the popular philosophical debates surrounding free will?

[ProphetofGanja]

Originally Posted by TurtleWA

Isn’t this similar to the popular philosophical debates surrounding free will?

Yeah, I think this is essentially that.

And Andrew's right, people typically put everything either on God and religion or natural law and instinct, claiming that either divine destiny or the natural order of things determine the outcome of everything, but I think both of those points of view severely discount the impact that sheer random chance has on our universe. Everything that's ever happened is just part of a chain reacton that's been going on for an infinite leng th of time. Something happened before the Big Bang, we just can't understand it yet. Maybe the entire universe retracted itself back into a single point and then everything exploded outwards all over again, like a ball bouncing.

[Sumac]

There is no choice. Only Chaos.

Which means our choices are irrelevant, since we can't predict how our actions will impact surrounding world in the long run and how actions of others, even random people, will impact our lives.
But we still can make them and hope that our plans and dreams won't be disrupted by random accidents. Still it's better alternative than any other idea.

Concept of "fate" is abhorrent and basically makes you every choice meaningless, since whatever, you do or don't do, you end with the same result.

And religions / religion-like views are just fairy tales for scared minds and basically present your whole life as a trial for psychopathic deities. Which is just a tool of manipulation of masses by priests and fanatics.

[TurtleWA]

Originally Posted by Sumac

And religions / religion-like views are just fairy tales for scared minds and basically present your whole life as a trial for psychopathic deities. Which is just a tool of manipulation of masses by priests and fanatics.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Modern science denies that there is any such thing as choice, as with anything else supernatural.

Despite this however, most scientists believe in choice because it is the foundation of Western Society.

There are many of our daily beliefs science goes against, but is a certain level of acceptance of those beliefs. If you believe in free will and God, you're good but if you believe in Creationism and Miracles, you have some explaining to do.

[CyberCubed]

There is choice. Right now I decided to open up a can of Coca Cola instead of drinking some Orange Juice. Otherwise I would have picked up the Orange Juice.

10 minutes from now I'm going to log off to play a videogame, if I had no choice I couldn't do that.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

There is choice. Right now I decided to open up a can of Coca Cola instead of drinking some Orange Juice. Otherwise I would have picked up the Orange Juice.

Why wouldn't that just be because of who you are as a person (i.e., derived from your collective memories, colored by brain chemistry or what-have-you), after reading this thread, that is what made you do that?

10 minutes from now I'm going to log off to play a videogame, if I had no choice I couldn't do that.

What makes you certain?

Originally Posted by Sumac

There is no choice. Only Chaos.

Which means our choices are irrelevant, since we can't predict how our actions will impact surrounding world in the long run and how actions of others, even random people, will impact our lives.
But we still can make them and hope that our plans and dreams won't be disrupted by random accidents. Still it's better alternative than any other idea.

Concept of "fate" is abhorrent and basically makes you every choice meaningless, since whatever, you do or don't do, you end with the same result.

It's not quite the same thing as "fate," though it basically is, for all intents and purposes. It's one of those things that's... best not to think about or dwell on too much, for obvious reasons.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Modern science denies that there is any such thing as choice, as with anything else supernatural.

Despite this however, most scientists believe in choice because it is the foundation of Western Society.

Got any citations for this?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Got any citations for this?

First of all, I am not of the beliefs I am describing. I am religious and believe in choice, the soul and creationism as you already know.

Second of all, You can always google the studies if you want to do more research.

Thirdly, Science is founded on the empirically observable. There is no room for anything that is not empirically observable and testable. It takes the assumptions that only the physically observable exists and does not dwelve into supernatural matters. So everything (including our minds) are governed by the natural laws cause/effect and we have no more choice than an ant driven by instinct, or even any more choice than a PLANT.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

First line of your post, you said Electrical Impulses are not physical. I was not talking about Electrical Impulses, but the picture of Raphael playing a guitar which I am imagining.

Two different things altogether.

I also believe that people have the ability to choose by virtue of a non-physical soul which is not bound by physical laws. Just putting it out there to clarify, becuase I get the impression that you think that I believe choice doesn't exist.

But just because I believe choice exists, doesn't mean that we should try to maximise people's ability to make choices and not face consequences for them.

I'll read the rest of your post and respond later.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

First line of your post, you said Electrical Impulses are not physical.

No, I said they ARE physical. Read it again.

And that's what your memory and imagination are. Electrical impulses, reacting to stimuli. There's nothing mystical or spiritual or metaphysical about it.

You can choose to respond to the rest at your leisure, but I might choose to go to bed by then. I may choose to check this thread again tomorrow when I wake up, but I may also choose to smoke pot and eat Doritos and forget about this entire conversation, as that's a thing that sometimes happens.

The upside to that being, whenever I choose to skim through old threads, I'm legitimately cracked up by some of the sh*t I've said, because I sincerely don't remember 99% of it.

I do not choose to be so entertained or laugh quite so hard. But it simply can't be helped, as I really am that funny. Which is one more reason I choose to stick around; I recognize the bar needs raising, and I choose not to abandon people who so clearly need a role model.

[Turo602]

This sounds like a sociological question, which from what I remember, proposes that choice is nothing more than an illusion and that we are instead being systematically guided towards those "choices" without actually realizing it. For instance, Leo could choose to go to sleep, but happens across something on the internet that makes him stay up and jerk off. Was it really his choice or was he influenced? It's the same with just about everything else.

Do we choose to follow the law because we're good people or do we follow the law because breaking it has repercussions? Would you still be a fan of all the same sports teams if you were born somewhere else? It's like a butterfly effect which is why many individuals who never met eachother could lead similar lives, have similar interests, and even meet the same fate. Not because they chose it, but because the larger inner-workings of society guided them there.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Electrical impulses are still "physical". That's what your brain and your memories and your imagination are. Electrical impulses reacting to stimuli.

My core arguement is that our memories and imagination are not electrical impulses. Is their existence strongly correlated?

Sure, but correlation does not equal causation.

If you think of say, Rainbow Dash shooting laser beams out of her eyes, you won't find the thought anywhere in the physical world. You can draw a picture of her sure, but a drawing is an assortment of ink on paper, both physical products.

Even if you find the picture I described on Deviantart, its not the thought itself that you found. Just someone's attempt to represent that thought.

The "image" in your mind of Rainbow Dash shooting laser beams may be a construct and a thought, but that doesn't mean that it does not exist altogether. It may not exist physically, but it still has a presence nonethless in your subjective experience, which is a different realm than the physical world.

The objective and subjective realms may exist parallel to each other, but are different nonethless as they cannot change each other. I cannot beat the image of Rainbow Dash out of your conscience unless you let it, and I cannot bring Rainbow Dash from my thoughts into my backyard by willing it.

When we are making choices, we are imagining two different possibilites and then our body responds based on which possibility our subjective experience prefers. You chose to stay up late at night, after your imagination imagined two possibilities (staying up late vs early) and preferred one of them.

This imagination is inherently supernatural and metaphysical, precisely because it is not physical and cannot be touched, smelled, seen, heard or tasted. The electrical signals are the physical thing, because we can see them using our sense of sight, through the computer screen's pixels and we may even be able to touch them if we are gross enough to pop someone's brain open, but the electrical signal is not the imagination in of itself.

We cannot see, touch, smell, taste or hear the imagination.

This supernatural ability to contemplate and reflect is what makes you, you. Now, we may be able to make a Robot Leo656, which will stay up late some days and go to rest early some other days.

Is the robot Leo656 making a choice? No, because it lacks the capacity to imagine of its free will like the real Leo656 does, the robot runs purely on a script and it cannot dream like you do.

Once you open up to the possibility is that the physical world is not all that there is, then it becomes possible to argue for God through our intuitions, and examine the different world religions to find out which one is most in line with said intuitions. However, if you believe that only the physical exists and deny everything supernatural, then are our dreams, free will, subjective experience and imagination nothing but an illusion?.

If you take the time to elaborate, then that is much appreciated.

[Leo656]

Yeah, no, I have Real Life Problems going on and I don't have time to waste any more than I already have on this nonsense.

Enjoy your fairy tales and your life being wasted on things that aren't real. Some of us have more important things to deal with. Don't @ me with this sh*t again.

Seriously, the Very Next Person who comes at me with some kind of religious or "spiritual" sh*t is getting blocked permanently. I'm not entertaining you lunatics in your delusions one minute further after everything I've had to deal with today. I'm just not.

[Leo656]

Sorry to snap like that but I had a really f*cking bad day.

We can still be friends and we can continue to talk about anything else there is but I'm not in the mood for people pushing their faith or faith-based beliefs on me considering everything going on over here lately.

I'm not trying to be a dick, especially not to people who I've always gotten along with otherwise. I just want people to keep their "faith" and their "beliefs" far away from me, and I don't want to have any discussion or debate about it. That's all. If it works for you, fine; it does less than nothing to help a person in my situation.

Sorry to lose my temper but I'm all out of patience with life, and people aren't far behind on the list.

Have a good night.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Ah, thats my bad. I meant to write "you said electrical impulses are physical".

I need to stop rushing my posts.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I just want to make it clear that I do not believe that God manifests himself into the physical world which is where I differ from Christians. Its not limiting God to say that he is not physical, but rather just being logical and consistent.

If I say that God cannot make a shape that is both a square and triangle at the same time, it does not mean that God is limited but that a square triangle is an illogical concept. Similarly, God being physical is an illogical concept because anything physical is automatically imperfect.

Originally Posted by Prowler

It amazes me how so many people can feel so strongly about something you can't even be sure exists.

Basing your whole life on trying to please this God guy, something that you're not even sure exists and no one has seen with their very eyes... doesn't seem like a good way to live your life.

Also,are we supposed to lead boring lives and get rewarded after we die? So we're supposed to be unhappy because there might be an afterlife where we get compensated in a place like heaven... and what do we do there exactly?

Might as well have fun while you're alive, I'd say. Because that's certainly real.

Believing in God is the only true happiness in my experience. The world changes and grows, but faith in God is absolute and unchanging.

And by believing and having faith, I don't mean hoping that he exists, but trusting in God after knowing of his existence.

[Prowler]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I just want to make it clear that I do not believe that God manifests himself into the physical world which is where I differ from Christians. Its not limiting God to say that he is not physical, but rather just being logical and consistent.

If I say that God cannot make a shape that is both a square and triangle at the same time, it does not mean that God is limited but that a square triangle is an illogical concept. Similarly, God being physical is an illogical concept because anything physical is automatically imperfect.

I don't think Christians consider God to be a physical entity either. After all, no one ever sees him. They just "feel" him.

I dunno how exactly one "feels" God. I can feel oxygen entering and leaving my body as far as non physical things go. But can't say I've ever felt something that made me feel it was a god of some sort.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Prowler

I don't think Christians consider God to be a physical entity either. After all, no one ever sees him. They just "feel" him.

Yes true, but the vast majority of them believe that Jesus (Peace be upon Him) was God in the flesh, which is something that Muslims strongly deny. Christians have no problem with the concept of God walking on the earth as a man, but Muslims find such a concept to be insulting and illogical.