TMNT girls. - Page 3

**Kali** · 11-07-2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaGirl21

As far as girl turtles...NO THANK YOU!! Keep them away! I won't even read fics that have female turtle characters...I just can't stand the idea ofgirl turtles, it really turns me off. Venus was a true abomination, a really bad idea that shoudn't be repeated, IMHO. *shudders*

I know everyone's entitled to their opinion, but isn't that a little harsh?

Mouse · 11-08-2003, 09:19 AM

everybody is entitled to opinions and the truth is stranger than fiction. i mean no one denies the fact that the TMNT are going to be fatherless, mateless, and speciesless for all time...depending on where the comics stand. but let us not refuse them what chances they might have.

personally, i believe that the turtles deserve at least some companionship. so, nothing would happen but at least we'd all get the ability to see the TMNT have someone before it is all over. said and done in fact.

sterile true but there is always more than one way to skin the cat.

**HorseTechie** · 11-08-2003, 10:49 AM

Heh.. yes, I let Mary sues and Gary Stus remain in fanfic-dom. I got no problem with tme as long as the story is written well.

But when it comes to cannon Mirage universe, I prefer for them to be the 4 lonely bachelors Laird intended them to be. As far as Venus goes... that remains only to the TNM universe, and anything that happens there stays there. I wouldn't really want to cross that over into Mirage comic verse or the cartoons or anything.

Splinter · 11-08-2003, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HorseTechie

As far as Venus goes... that remains only to the TNM universe, and anything that happens there stays there. I wouldn't really want to cross that over into Mirage comic verse or the cartoons or anything.

As much as I hate Laird for the way that he treats the fans, I will give him that. He's vowed that Venus will never again see the light of day. Unless it's a mention in a large coffee table like book of the history of TMNT. So Laird gets a thumbs up from me on that one.

**Karpo_007** · 11-08-2003, 11:10 AM

He making it possible for the fans to have a Great New TV series and soon 2 on going comics, I think he treats the fans pretty well.

Misfit · 11-08-2003, 11:17 AM

Quote:

I know everyone's entitled to their opinion, but isn't that a little harsh?

Eh, I've never been good at hiding my emotions, especially over something I really can't stand. TNM/Venus brings out the worst in me rant-wise I'm afraid.

*heretic888* · 11-08-2003, 11:57 AM

I'll say it again.

Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

'Nuff said.

Splinter · 11-08-2003, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karpo_007

He making it possible for the fans to have a Great New TV series and soon 2 on going comics, I think he treats the fans pretty well.

Only cause it lines his pockets. He still treats them like crap, in most of his letters columns and the ways he speaks about them. There's a difference between making money off the fans, and actually treating them well.

*Jephael* · 11-08-2003, 01:49 PM

::sighs:: Look, I can see why people feel strongly against the idea of the guys being able to hook up with girls and all, but when you think about it, we have to deal with the need for love in most of our lives.

The whole reason behind this argument is because most of us have known what's it's like to feel alone, so we sympathise with the turtles which is why we want what happens for us in our personal lives to happen for them as well.

~~Leo656~~ · 11-08-2003, 04:29 PM

Karpo:
Yes, Laird treats the fans well by giving us a lot of great new TMNT stuff to enjoy. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to deal well with people on an interaction level, and seems to take it personally if there's anything someone doesn't like about "his" product. Thus, I agree with VS in saying that Laird's relationship with his audience isn't the greatest.

Heretic: Is there any reason why you seem to need to repeat yourself constantly? We heard you the first time. In fact, you already said in your last post that you were just going to be repeating yourself with this one. Why? We heard you the first time. Duly noted. Move along, move along. Nobody's arguing with you, people are just discussing the scenario in its entirety, not the likelihood of it ever happening in "canon". Chill out already.

**Karpo_007** · 11-08-2003, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Only cause it lines his pockets. He still treats them like crap, in most of his letters columns and the ways he speaks about them. There's a difference between making money off the fans, and actually treating them

Vintage Splinter, do you really think Mirage is making a big profit out of TMNT comic series? Comics get a big part of their profit from ads, how many do you see in new Mirage books? They are not making big bucks out of it. He makes it for himself, and for the fans.

And do you think he has to be involved in the new show? He could do the same thing wich he did with the old show, just aprove anything and take the money. But he wants to be involved, He does it for the fans, so that we get the best TMNT toon possible. And his involvement really shows.

I agree with Leo, he does not take negative feedback very well. But I can relate, if I would get people constantly whining about something I do, I'd begin to be pised off too. Especially since the people who really don't like Lawsson's art are a minority. You can't please everyone. But agreed, he isn't the greatest people person, but thanks to him the TMNT is back once again.

~~Leo656~~ · 11-08-2003, 06:44 PM

Correction: They're a minority amongst TMNT fans, most of which don't read many comics besides TMNT. In the opinion of most people IN GENERAL, he's not all that great.

I've said before and I'll say again: I'm glad the TMNT are back, and I'm thankful to Peter Laird for bringing them back, but not everything about either the new show, the new Mirage book, OR the new DW book is perfect, and we as fans should be allowed to air our grievances without fear that he'll either snap at us or cancel the TMNT. That's all I'm sayin'.

**Karpo_007** · 11-08-2003, 06:56 PM

Well do people outside TMNT fans like older Mirage art either? I still think the original Eastman/Laird art beats every other comic art I've seen. Evey issue was a piece of art, when I was reading them I could spend even 10 minutes[!] looking at one page. The new art is no where near that, but it gets the job done.

I agree that he could be more polite when it comes to ctiticism, but when people create something big like that, they tend to stick with their own views. I have often used George Lucas in comparison, if fans got to decide, the new episodes would be something completetely diffrent, but it's Lucas' world, and he does what he wan'ts with it. Same goes with Laird, of course it differs since people ctisize the Art, wich Laird isn't responsible for. He probably feels bad for Jim.

~~Leo656~~ · 11-09-2003, 05:50 AM

If you can tell me, with a straight face, that Jim Lawson's art is better than Alex Ross's, you're biased. I'm sorry, but that's just how it is.

Some other comic artists you might want to check out are Dan Jurgens, Ed McGuinness, Jerry Ordway, John Byrne, and Ed Benes. Some would recommend Todd McFarlane but meh, I don't really care for him.

I can't speak for the consensus, but most non-TMNT fans that I personally know do not, in fact, like Lawson's style, past or present. Much of it stems from the fact that while his TMNT are fairly well-done, most of his human beings tend to look overly simplified and almost identical to one another. I know that's always been my biggest issue with it. If the book was in color it probably wouldn't be quite as noticeable.

As for Laird, yeah I imagine he probably feels bad for Jim since the two are friends. Ah well, as long as people have their opinions, they're going to express them, like it or not. Still amuses me how the letters in the last couple issues have been almost unanimously full of praise though. Snicker.

*That Matt Guy* · 11-09-2003, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

If you can tell me, with a straight face, that Jim Lawson's art is better than Alex Ross's, you're biased. I'm sorry, but that's just how it is.

Well, he did kind of go overboard with the Flash's crotch.

~~Leo656~~ · 11-09-2003, 06:08 AM

I hate you...

*tOkKa* · 11-09-2003, 07:02 AM

-->>

..Jim Lawson is extremly damm good at what he does.. he is with Mirage cuz he is a stale mate there and uh yeh.. he is a pretty damm good artist. There is no f7ckin' point me .."WELL GEE WHIZZ..Alex ross.. boy-howdee.. he shure do paint 'Purdier pitchers.. n' draws lots bettir than that Lawson feller.."
..Awsome.. man.. you can like all that 'til ya want. It's great.. both men are legeands by now in each of thier own rights.. and everyone can bicker until they are blue in the face about it..

The fact is.. Mr.Laird likes Mr.Lawson's work.. ALOT.. Jim Is doin' pretty damm well.. plenty of my non-TMNT friends like his work simply cuz it is quirky the way it is.. or is 'TMNT' the only thing we're gonna compare??

..What about 'Guzzi' ?? What about 'Paleo' ?? 'Dino Island' ..'Planet Racer Novels' and by now the his old classic 'Bade Biker and Orson' ..

..the man has got a great body of work.. and he's continually been working with Mirage cuz he is simply damm good and has proven himself.
Fine.. don't like his work.. he knows his sh8t.. he get's it done.. he is Mirage Alumni..

..i'm sorry.. but that's just how it is!!

*tOkKa* · 11-09-2003, 07:03 AM

-->>

..o yeh.. Hi,Sean.. how ya doin',buddy??

~~Leo656~~ · 11-09-2003, 07:17 AM

The difference is that Lawson's talent is far more weighted towards certain areas. He's what I refer to as a "niche artist". He can draw turtles and dinosaurs and all that no problem, and do it well, but ask him to draw something as simple as a human being and you might as well have asked him to draw with a blindfold on. And having grown up on thousands of comics and hundreds of thousands of artists, I guess I'm just a harsh judge of talent. I shouldn't have to give myself eyestrain trying to tell April and Casey apart, even if the comic is in black and white.

And the reason it bothers me SO MUCH is because I know a LOT of people, friends of mine, who refuse to buy the Mirage book because they don't like the art. I want the book to succeed as much as possible, and it's a shame that a lot of people can't look past the art to get into the story. But that's how it goes, and because of that I honestly believe that, Mirage "purity" or no, the book would do better if an artist with a more "accessible" style were on it. My comic shop still has lots of copies left over of issues going back to number 6. And that makes me nervous.

Just to be fair though I will say I once saw some TMNT colored pencil drawings of Lawson's that I liked.

But I long ago gave up on the idea that anything would change art-wise on the book, so I kind of just ignore it. I've seen worse, after all. But whenever someone says Lawson's art is "the best they've ever seen" I honestly wonder just how many comic books that person actually reads. ((Shrug))

And I'm doin' just fine, Dave, good t'see you here.

**Karpo_007** · 11-09-2003, 08:01 AM

Read what I said, I said old Mirage done be Eastman and Laird, never said a about Lawsson's old art. I said I think Eastman and Laird drawn issues are the best drawn comics I have seen, better than the Image you posted.

I have read Amazing Spider-man for 15 years, Ultimate for it's entire run, and when I was younger I read Superman/Batman. I do think that Old Mirage beats them all.

But I do love Lawssons older TMNT art too. It isn't on the same level that Eastman/Lairds' but still great. I don't know why his style has changed so much over the years.

There's few pieces of Eastman And Laird's art from the official site:

If your friends hate Lawsson's art, Do they hathe E/l's art also? Thats what I consider best comic boo art, not mass produced mainstream comics, they just lack the personal touch. Dislike for Lawssons new style I can understand, but if your friends wouldn't like Eastman/Laird art either, then TMNT is not for them.

As for the old Lawsson style:

While It's not as good as E/L's, I think thats Return to New York saga is still one of the best drawn comic stories. And the one page from City at War shows that he can draw humans.

Finally, Lawsson's New Style:

Ok, volume 4 is clearly inferior to Lawsson's older work. Everytime I red the older issues I wonder why it has chanhed so much. But it still has the "Mirage look" in it. I wonder, if you toally hate Lawsson's new art, can you like Mirage's older art either?

11-08-2003, 09:19 AM	#42
Mouse Foot Soldier Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Kansas Posts: 156	everybody is entitled to opinions and the truth is stranger than fiction. i mean no one denies the fact that the TMNT are going to be fatherless, mateless, and speciesless for all time...depending on where the comics stand. but let us not refuse them what chances they might have. personally, i believe that the turtles deserve at least some companionship. so, nothing would happen but at least we'd all get the ability to see the TMNT have someone before it is all over. said and done in fact. sterile true but there is always more than one way to skin the cat. __________________ So what we're blood brothers now?

11-08-2003, 11:57 AM	#47
heretic888 Foot Elite Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,344	hee I'll say it again. Ain't. Gonna. Happen. 'Nuff said. __________________ "Ninpo began as training to become a moral people and to learn to endure in whatever social condition one is in; to know and accept one's fate, and to live for human beings and all other creatures. The person who masters all of these is a Ninja." (Masaaki Hatsumi)

11-08-2003, 01:49 PM	#49
Jephael That whack job behind you Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Carlisle, Pennsylvania Posts: 8,143	::sighs:: Look, I can see why people feel strongly against the idea of the guys being able to hook up with girls and all, but when you think about it, we have to deal with the need for love in most of our lives. The whole reason behind this argument is because most of us have known what's it's like to feel alone, so we sympathise with the turtles which is why we want what happens for us in our personal lives to happen for them as well. __________________ "I like it. Simple, but effective!" Raphael; The Mean Machines - 1988

11-09-2003, 07:02 AM	#57
tOkKa tOkKie-Pokie,puddin'n PIE Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Pajamas out of the water on the elephant was sweating a lemon. Posts: 1,729	-->> ..Jim Lawson is extremly damm good at what he does.. he is with Mirage cuz he is a stale mate there and uh yeh.. he is a pretty damm good artist. There is no f7ckin' point me .."WELL GEE WHIZZ..Alex ross.. boy-howdee.. he shure do paint 'Purdier pitchers.. n' draws lots bettir than that Lawson feller.." ..Awsome.. man.. you can like all that 'til ya want. It's great.. both men are legeands by now in each of thier own rights.. and everyone can bicker until they are blue in the face about it.. The fact is.. Mr.Laird likes Mr.Lawson's work.. ALOT.. Jim Is doin' pretty damm well.. plenty of my non-TMNT friends like his work simply cuz it is quirky the way it is.. or is 'TMNT' the only thing we're gonna compare?? ..What about 'Guzzi' ?? What about 'Paleo' ?? 'Dino Island' ..'Planet Racer Novels' and by now the his old classic 'Bade Biker and Orson' .. ..the man has got a great body of work.. and he's continually been working with Mirage cuz he is simply damm good and has proven himself. Fine.. don't like his work.. he knows his sh8t.. he get's it done.. he is Mirage Alumni.. ..i'm sorry.. but that's just how it is!! __________________ 666 !!terrible2z /GGM!!/T.G.R.I./ ..モンスターのカメを解読しなさい。

11-09-2003, 07:03 AM	#58
tOkKa tOkKie-Pokie,puddin'n PIE Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Pajamas out of the water on the elephant was sweating a lemon. Posts: 1,729	-->> ..o yeh.. Hi,Sean.. how ya doin',buddy?? __________________ 666 !!terrible2z /GGM!!/T.G.R.I./ ..モンスターのカメを解読しなさい。

11-08-2003, 10:49 AM	#43
HorseTechie Inactive Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Midwest Posts: 5,677	Heh.. yes, I let Mary sues and Gary Stus remain in fanfic-dom. I got no problem with tme as long as the story is written well. But when it comes to cannon Mirage universe, I prefer for them to be the 4 lonely bachelors Laird intended them to be. As far as Venus goes... that remains only to the TNM universe, and anything that happens there stays there. I wouldn't really want to cross that over into Mirage comic verse or the cartoons or anything.

11-08-2003, 11:10 AM	#45
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	He making it possible for the fans to have a Great New TV series and soon 2 on going comics, I think he treats the fans pretty well.

11-08-2003, 04:29 PM	#50
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Karpo: Yes, Laird treats the fans well by giving us a lot of great new TMNT stuff to enjoy. On the other hand, he doesn't seem to deal well with people on an interaction level, and seems to take it personally if there's anything someone doesn't like about "his" product. Thus, I agree with VS in saying that Laird's relationship with his audience isn't the greatest. Heretic: Is there any reason why you seem to need to repeat yourself constantly? We heard you the first time. In fact, you already said in your last post that you were just going to be repeating yourself with this one. Why? We heard you the first time. Duly noted. Move along, move along. Nobody's arguing with you, people are just discussing the scenario in its entirety, not the likelihood of it ever happening in "canon". Chill out already.

11-08-2003, 06:44 PM	#52
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Correction: They're a minority amongst TMNT fans, most of which don't read many comics besides TMNT. In the opinion of most people IN GENERAL, he's not all that great. I've said before and I'll say again: I'm glad the TMNT are back, and I'm thankful to Peter Laird for bringing them back, but not everything about either the new show, the new Mirage book, OR the new DW book is perfect, and we as fans should be allowed to air our grievances without fear that he'll either snap at us or cancel the TMNT. That's all I'm sayin'.

11-08-2003, 06:56 PM	#53
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Well do people outside TMNT fans like older Mirage art either? I still think the original Eastman/Laird art beats every other comic art I've seen. Evey issue was a piece of art, when I was reading them I could spend even 10 minutes[!] looking at one page. The new art is no where near that, but it gets the job done. I agree that he could be more polite when it comes to ctiticism, but when people create something big like that, they tend to stick with their own views. I have often used George Lucas in comparison, if fans got to decide, the new episodes would be something completetely diffrent, but it's Lucas' world, and he does what he wan'ts with it. Same goes with Laird, of course it differs since people ctisize the Art, wich Laird isn't responsible for. He probably feels bad for Jim.

11-09-2003, 05:50 AM	#54
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	If you can tell me, with a straight face, that Jim Lawson's art is better than Alex Ross's, you're biased. I'm sorry, but that's just how it is. Some other comic artists you might want to check out are Dan Jurgens, Ed McGuinness, Jerry Ordway, John Byrne, and Ed Benes. Some would recommend Todd McFarlane but meh, I don't really care for him. I can't speak for the consensus, but most non-TMNT fans that I personally know do not, in fact, like Lawson's style, past or present. Much of it stems from the fact that while his TMNT are fairly well-done, most of his human beings tend to look overly simplified and almost identical to one another. I know that's always been my biggest issue with it. If the book was in color it probably wouldn't be quite as noticeable. As for Laird, yeah I imagine he probably feels bad for Jim since the two are friends. Ah well, as long as people have their opinions, they're going to express them, like it or not. Still amuses me how the letters in the last couple issues have been almost unanimously full of praise though. Snicker.

11-09-2003, 06:08 AM	#56
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I hate you...

11-09-2003, 07:17 AM	#59
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	The difference is that Lawson's talent is far more weighted towards certain areas. He's what I refer to as a "niche artist". He can draw turtles and dinosaurs and all that no problem, and do it well, but ask him to draw something as simple as a human being and you might as well have asked him to draw with a blindfold on. And having grown up on thousands of comics and hundreds of thousands of artists, I guess I'm just a harsh judge of talent. I shouldn't have to give myself eyestrain trying to tell April and Casey apart, even if the comic is in black and white. And the reason it bothers me SO MUCH is because I know a LOT of people, friends of mine, who refuse to buy the Mirage book because they don't like the art. I want the book to succeed as much as possible, and it's a shame that a lot of people can't look past the art to get into the story. But that's how it goes, and because of that I honestly believe that, Mirage "purity" or no, the book would do better if an artist with a more "accessible" style were on it. My comic shop still has lots of copies left over of issues going back to number 6. And that makes me nervous. Just to be fair though I will say I once saw some TMNT colored pencil drawings of Lawson's that I liked. But I long ago gave up on the idea that anything would change art-wise on the book, so I kind of just ignore it. I've seen worse, after all. But whenever someone says Lawson's art is "the best they've ever seen" I honestly wonder just how many comic books that person actually reads. ((Shrug)) And I'm doin' just fine, Dave, good t'see you here.

11-09-2003, 08:01 AM	#60
Karpo_007 Inactive Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 8,798	Read what I said, I said old Mirage done be Eastman and Laird, never said a about Lawsson's old art. I said I think Eastman and Laird drawn issues are the best drawn comics I have seen, better than the Image you posted. I have read Amazing Spider-man for 15 years, Ultimate for it's entire run, and when I was younger I read Superman/Batman. I do think that Old Mirage beats them all. But I do love Lawssons older TMNT art too. It isn't on the same level that Eastman/Lairds' but still great. I don't know why his style has changed so much over the years. There's few pieces of Eastman And Laird's art from the official site: If your friends hate Lawsson's art, Do they hathe E/l's art also? Thats what I consider best comic boo art, not mass produced mainstream comics, they just lack the personal touch. Dislike for Lawssons new style I can understand, but if your friends wouldn't like Eastman/Laird art either, then TMNT is not for them. As for the old Lawsson style: While It's not as good as E/L's, I think thats Return to New York saga is still one of the best drawn comic stories. And the one page from City at War shows that he can draw humans. Finally, Lawsson's New Style: Ok, volume 4 is clearly inferior to Lawsson's older work. Everytime I red the older issues I wonder why it has chanhed so much. But it still has the "Mirage look" in it. I wonder, if you toally hate Lawsson's new art, can you like Mirage's older art either?