TMNT Shredder in Hell #5 Preview & Discussion

[daggio]

I'm in the middle of these two opinions. I agree, I feel that the Kitsune/Dragon aspect came into City at War at the 11th hour when the entire plot(s) didn't have Kitsune in it (except that 3-part prelude where she tried to convince Karai to take what's hers with force). I guess if SiH had been completed back in the Summer, maybe that would've cushioned the blow so-to-speak of Kitsune appearing in the final half of 99. Yet, I guess this Dragon plot does deserve to occupy 100. It's been simmering since (theoretically) Secret History of the Foot Clan. Waiting longer would've probably just made us the audience less interested.

One thing I kinda hope here is that the completion of the Dragon story doesn't fully finish in this one issue. If the Dragon is permanently put away quickly after all this buildup I think, personally, I'll be a little disappointed. Granted, the Technodrome was disabled as quickly as it was activated, but it's still ominously around. Is the Dragon gonna be slayed or is he gonna somehow survive, but be some sort of ominous character like Sauron?

[ChosenOne]

With a threat this big, literally, it'll probably be do or die. I don't think the Dragon will be back after this.

[daggio]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

With a threat this big, literally, it'll probably be do or die. I don't think the Dragon will be back after this.

I guess I'll be disappointed then
At least the Technodrome was constantly referenced as a gigantic threat over and over again in the many issues preceding it. Here, yes, we know the Dragon is a destroyer, but there's so many other things happening that that threat hasn't been given the referencing it deserves.

I just realized how much this Dragon plot reminds me of season 5 of the 4kids cartoon.

[Zog The Magnificent]

I don't think it necessarily has to be do or die. They just have to seal him away again, allowing him to go back to the background until the moment when the Pantheon finally takes center stage, bringing him back for the grand finale, at which point he can be destroyed for good. The Pantheon is the backbone of the the whole comic. When they go, the book goes too.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

I don't think it necessarily has to be do or die. They just have to seal him away again, allowing him to go back to the background until the moment when the Pantheon finally takes center stage, bringing him back for the grand finale, at which point he can be destroyed for good. The Pantheon is the backbone of the the whole comic. When they go, the book goes too.

What I meant to say, and I realize I could've phrased that better, is that these sort of things tend to happen that way in fiction. There's only so many times a major apocalyptical threat can be unleashed, sealed away, rinse and repeat, until it starts to feel incredibly stale. Most writers get around that problem by only letting it happen once. The most recent example I can think of is Trigon in the Titans TV show, even though he might pop up again at some point... There was so much hype and he was done away with in less than twenty minutes. It's often the journey undergone by the characters that matters most, not the end point of having to fight some all-consuming being all the time. If we see the big bad being taken down once, the second time loses much or all of its luster.

[MikeandRaph87]

So Aka was killed? I did not realize the Pantheon could die. Trapped perhaps, but not killed.

Oroku Saki is reformed and only agreed to join the dragon because the free will and love he was allowed he belives will be key to stopping the dragon fighting it within and appealing to Kitsune. Interesting approach. It could be everyone (that includes Karai's group) vs The Dragon. There are shades of the 5th season finale of the 2003 series here. Only instead of an avatar of Hamto Yoshi an avatar of Oroku Saki will slay the demonic dragon.

[Ninjinister]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Anybody thinking the skull will have a role to play?

Does it look like Rat King to anybody else...?

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

So Aka was killed? I did not realize the Pantheon could die. Trapped perhaps, but not killed.

Well, the Dragon himself was killed at some point, wasn't he?

My best guess is that destruction of their physical forms is the closest thing they can get to dying like mortals do and their essences linger on, but bringing them back to life is an exceptionally difficult process which ensures that they might as well stay dead for good. Until now.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

What I meant to say, and I realize I could've phrased that better, is that these sort of things tend to happen that way in fiction. There's only so many times a major apocalyptical threat can be unleashed, sealed away, rinse and repeat, until it starts to feel incredibly stale. Most writers get around that problem by only letting it happen once. The most recent example I can think of is Trigon in the Titans TV show, even though he might pop up again at some point... There was so much hype and he was done away with in less than twenty minutes. It's often the journey undergone by the characters that matters most, not the end point of having to fight some all-consuming being all the time. If we see the big bad being taken down once, the second time loses much or all of its luster.

Thanks for clarifying, I see what you mean. That being said, I wouldn't lose hope just yet. In the hands of a competant writer, there's always a way to make it interesting. I think a good example of this would be the Lich from Adventure Time. If you show a threat being beaten repeadtedly, he becomes less threatening, which is a valid concern with the Dragon here. However, they managed to avert this by having him show up only a few times, and by raising the stakes of his schemes each time. He remained just as creepy and intimidating each time. Even once they basically retired him, he still managed to be a looming threat, but they acknowledged that the characters themselves weren't worried about it anymore. Not that they have to do that exactly with the Dragon. The way I see it here, with the Dragon, is that he's been mentioned a few time. He's a greater threat then the Pantheon, who've served as the looming threat of the entire comic. I figure he can come out once, and they can beat him back, just barely, the idea being that they got lucky and he wasn't yet nearly what he could be, so that it doesn't feel like they really took him down, sort of like the way Darkseid was handled in the DCAU. Then, now that they know exactly what they're dealing with, it can be a recurring plot point about how to prepare for his inevitable return. The Pantheon can take center stage during the final phase of the comic, and then he can get out again, actually do some serious damage to the world before they destroy him for good. You're right in that if he kept showing up, only to be beaten each time, he would very quickly become a joke. But I think if they only use him twice, MAYBE three times, with the first being a sample of his threat and the last being his full unabriged power unleashed, with maybe a minor story in the middle where he's more pulling the strings, then they can have him be a compelling final villain that feels worthy of being the climax of all the remaining character's journeys.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Thanks for clarifying, I see what you mean. That being said, I wouldn't lose hope just yet. In the hands of a competant writer, there's always a way to make it interesting. I think a good example of this would be the Lich from Adventure Time. If you show a threat being beaten repeadtedly, he becomes less threatening, which is a valid concern with the Dragon here. However, they managed to avert this by having him show up only a few times, and by raising the stakes of his schemes each time. He remained just as creepy and intimidating each time. Even once they basically retired him, he still managed to be a looming threat, but they acknowledged that the characters themselves weren't worried about it anymore. Not that they have to do that exactly with the Dragon. The way I see it here, with the Dragon, is that he's been mentioned a few time. He's a greater threat then the Pantheon, who've served as the looming threat of the entire comic. I figure he can come out once, and they can beat him back, just barely, the idea being that they got lucky and he wasn't yet nearly what he could be, so that it doesn't feel like they really took him down, sort of like the way Darkseid was handled in the DCAU. Then, now that they know exactly what they're dealing with, it can be a recurring plot point about how to prepare for his inevitable return. The Pantheon can take center stage during the final phase of the comic, and then he can get out again, actually do some serious damage to the world before they destroy him for good. You're right in that if he kept showing up, only to be beaten each time, he would very quickly become a joke. But I think if they only use him twice, MAYBE three times, with the first being a sample of his threat and the last being his full unabriged power unleashed, with maybe a minor story in the middle where he's more pulling the strings, then they can have him be a compelling final villain that feels worthy of being the climax of all the remaining character's journeys.

That's certainly a possibility as well. Though given how much importance has just been put on Saki and his link to the Dragon being the key to defeating it (this time?), it seems safe to say that at least that avenue won't be exploited again if the big bad is ever to make his return.

Only time will tell, though, and fortunately not too much of it. Less than a week away!

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

So Aka was killed? I did not realize the Pantheon could die. Trapped perhaps, but not killed..

Well if you read Kitsune's dialogue, she flat out said the sword can take the life of a god and make them mortal. So yes, Aka is dead.

I did love how Aka thought Kitsune was going to sacrifice herself, and then kills her instead. That was great because she didn't see it coming, even though we the readers might have.

[ChosenOne]

How awfully convenient to have a weapon like that lying around for the big showdown... Would be rad if Alopex got the killing blow on Kitsune.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

Would be rad if Alopex got the killing blow on Kitsune.

lol, now we know how that turned out

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

lol, now we know how that turned out

Well, she got her licks in and put a stop to Kitsune's plan for sure. And who knows, they're both still alive...

[ToTheNines]

So what, if anything, was the narrative link between this and #100? Maybe I’m just an idiot, but they seem pretty contradictory.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

So what, if anything, was the narrative link between this and #100? Maybe I’m just an idiot, but they seem pretty contradictory.

I agree that the final scene of the mini (Kitsune speaking to an already partially-resurrected Dragon) didn't mesh well with the events of #100, but the most important development was that the entity she brought back in Saki's body wasn't just the Dragon itself, but a construct that included Saki's soul. That's what allowed Splinter to reach him and ultimately turn the tide of the battle. The whole mini tells the story of how Saki came to make that decision, of allowing himself to be used as a part of the Dragon's plan, in order to fight him from within. At least that's how I see it. Maybe others can explain this better than me.