Batman V. Superman: Dawn Of Justice

[Purse Grabbin Puke]

Originally Posted by Krutch

I'll agree to disagree. The Kents in this movie are this universe's biggest problem. Superman is the product of perfect parenting; we could all be Superman if we had the Kents. In this universe we haven't seen anything from them that proves these two are anything close to that. And while yes, in this universe Clark isn't the perfect boyscout and he's still figuring out who he is, I'm not interested in that interpretation. Superman shouldn't have to cross the line to figure out where it is as he did in Man of Steel.

This movie just seems like the studio's way of saving face for all the destruction and Superman's actions while saying "Look! It was our plan all along! This WHOLE NEXT MOVIE is about how all the stuff that you didn't like was done on purpose!" while also shoving in Batman to guarantee sales.

Just bleh. I really want to be excited. Its Batman and Superman on screen together for the first time!! And I love those characters. But this isn't Superman to me. This is a weird untrustworthy alien stranger wearing his cape.

It really blows my mind that people just throw out the reality that up until Zod, Superman had never been in a fight. He was always told by Pa Kent to not fight back. So it's like in Iron Man. When Jeff Bridges character gets in that suit for the first time, and even though we watched Tony Stark go through a period of trial and error and learning how to use the suit, Bridges' character pops in there and he's a pro in the suit. In Man of Steel we see the evolution of Zod overcoming new powers and abilities on Earth, and we see Superman learning to fight, and save the world at the same time. Too much stock is put in the fact Metropolis was destroyed, and Zod was killed. In reality there is no way Superman was going to be able to avoid the destruction. Zod is equal to him. They BOTH just recently learned to fly. Zod most likely had been in some fights. Superman had not. Also, Zod was going to kill an innocent family. So you'd rather Superman let an innocent family die instead of kill Zod?

I listened to a Zack Snyder interview he did before the movie was released, but they released the interview the weekend of the release. He talked about how if they get a sequel it will be based around the destruction, and his killing of Zod. So it's not some thing they just made up after the movie came out and there was concern about people's reactions. They are building a universe. All these stories, like in Marvel's must run together.

Batman is introduced because of Man of Steel, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, they even say in the Suicide Squad trailer, these people with power were inspired by Superman. So you couldn't be more wrong.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

Also, Zod was going to kill an innocent family. So you'd rather Superman let an innocent family die instead of kill Zod?

There were plenty of other things he could have done, and that scene being written as if he had no other choice was clumsy as hell. He had him by the neck. Why didn't he cover Zod's eyes? Or just... fly up? Or even fall backward with him to change the direction of his heat vision and yell at the family to run? I mean, Superman has super-speed. And they're equally strong, but it really shouldn't be that hard to move someone's head, especially in the position they were in. Zod seemed basically defeated already - there are plenty of ways he could have diverted his heat-vision attack and pummelled him into submission.

But Snyder just really wanted to make a movie where Superman killed a guy, even if he had to defy all logic to do it. That moment was incredibly forced, and the impact on the character just doesn't sit well with a lot of people. That part comes down to preference, but it's a perfectly reasonable one.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Bry

There were plenty of other things he could have done, and that scene being written as if he had no other choice was clumsy as hell. He had him by the neck. Why didn't he cover Zod's eyes? Or just... fly up? Or even fall backward with him to change the direction of his heat vision? Superman has super-speed. They're equally strong, but it's really not that hard to move someone's head, especially in the position they were in. Zod seemed basically defeated already - there are plenty of ways he could have diverted his heat-vision attack and pummelled him into submission.

But Snyder just really wanted to make a movie where Superman killed a guy, even if he had to defy all logic to do it. That moment was incredibly forced.

Fun fact, Christopher Nolan advised against killing Zod.

[Bry]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Fun fact, Christopher Nolan advised against killing Zod.

Too bad he was outvoted. It wouldn't have saved the movie, IMO -- I know a lot of people like it, but it was just way too dour and dull for my tastes -- but it would have helped many people recognize this as Superman. It's the same trap a lot of people who don't "get" Superman fall into: they focus so much on the powers, on the Super, that they forget or disregard the Man. And that's the far more important part.

Nothing against Snyder personally, but he seems like someone who doesn't "get" Superman and is trying desperately to turn Superman into something he does get. Totally backwards.

Even then... what he was going for there fell way short. I'd actually be up for this kind of thing done well - forcing Superman to do something against his principles for the greater good. They were trying to make something challenging and interesting, but their scenario was just badly written, forced and lazy. They didn't do the work. And putting it as the climax of a Superman origin story just... is not a good idea, IMO. They didn't establish Superman as Superman, as a version of the Superman that's been an icon for 75+ years, and that's automatically put them in a defensive position - now they have to "prove" something in the sequels that they never should've had to in the first place.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Bry

Too bad he was outvoted. It wouldn't have saved the movie, IMO -- I know a lot of people like it, but it was just way too dour and dull for my tastes -- but it would have helped many people recognize this as Superman. It's the same trap a lot of people who don't "get" Superman fall into: they focus so much on the powers, on the Super, that they forget or disregard the Man. And that's the far more important part.

Nothing against Snyder personally, but he seems like someone who doesn't "get" Superman and is trying desperately to turn Superman into something he does get. Totally backwards.

Even then... what he was going for there fell way short. I'd actually be up for this kind of thing done well - forcing Superman to do something against his principles for the greater good. They were trying to make something challenging and interesting, but their scenario was just badly written, forced and lazy. They didn't do the work. And putting it as the climax of a Superman origin story just... is not a good idea, IMO. They didn't establish Superman as Superman, as a version of the Superman that's been an icon for 75+ years, and that's automatically put them in a defensive position - now they have to "prove" something in the sequels that they never should've had to in the first place.

My main problem with MoS is that the entire third act is just destruction porn after a point. So much CGI, so much smashing, so incomprehensible and numbing... I had to fast forward so much of it.

And Pa Kent is a moron to die over a freaking dog. Any high-school amateur writer could come up with a better way to kill off Pa Kent, a way that doesn't insult everyone's intelligence.

Bay-level of poor writing right there.

[plastroncafe]

Didn't even try to make this panel at SDCC, so I'm only seeing the trailer now.
Wow...much overwrought. So gritty. Wow.

Also, no where near enough Wondy.

[MikeandRaph87]

I was about to chime in about Pa Kent's foolish reason for sacrificing himself. That was dumb. That and Superman murdering Zod went it was not neccessary. Those wsre tbe two problems I had with Man of Steel. Its not like non-killer Catwoman being a situation where she had to kill Bane to sa e Batman. If the result waz supposed to be Superman killing him make jt so there js no other choice.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by MikeandRaph87

I was about to chime in about Pa Kent's foolish reason for sacrificing himself. That was dumb. That and Superman murdering Zod went it was not neccessary. Those wsre tbe two problems I had with Man of Steel. Its not like non-killer Catwoman being a situation where she had to kill Bane to sa e Batman. If the result waz supposed to be Superman killing him make jt so there js no other choice.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Also, no where near enough Wondy.

ABSOLUTELY agreed. What do you think of the Wonder Woman movie being set around WW2?

[plastroncafe]

Supes taking out Zod was the least objectionable thing in that movie. If anything, that made Kal more human. MoS lost me when Jor'El left his wife to labor on her own so he could testify before congress, and then didn't even have the decency to upload her consciousness into the ship as well. That's pretty much when I knew I was all aboard the Man Pain Train.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Supes taking out Zod was the least objectionable thing in that movie. If anything, that made Kal more human. MoS lost me when Jor'El left his wife to labor on her own so he could testify before congress, and then didn't even have the decency to upload her consciousness into the ship as well. That's pretty much when I knew I was all aboard the Man Pain Train.

It's conceivable (see what I did there?) that Jor-El was legally required to appear before the Kryptonian Council or whatever, his wife and child be damned. Subpoenaed or whatever.

But yeah, if he can go to the trouble to provide his consciousness to his kid (and we see that this was all planned out before Krypton's core blew), you'd think a guy would provide the same for his wife.

We've all seen what happens when kids are raised by only a father with no female influence. You get an angsty angry Raphael, that's what.

[Krutch]

Originally Posted by Purse Grabbin Puke

It really blows my mind that people just throw out the reality that up until Zod, Superman had never been in a fight. He was always told by Pa Kent to not fight back. So it's like in Iron Man. When Jeff Bridges character gets in that suit for the first time, and even though we watched Tony Stark go through a period of trial and error and learning how to use the suit, Bridges' character pops in there and he's a pro in the suit. In Man of Steel we see the evolution of Zod overcoming new powers and abilities on Earth, and we see Superman learning to fight, and save the world at the same time. Too much stock is put in the fact Metropolis was destroyed, and Zod was killed. In reality there is no way Superman was going to be able to avoid the destruction. Zod is equal to him. They BOTH just recently learned to fly. Zod most likely had been in some fights. Superman had not. Also, Zod was going to kill an innocent family. So you'd rather Superman let an innocent family die instead of kill Zod?

I'm getting a little tired of the excuse that he doesn't know the limit of his powers. Flight, sure, maybe but considering he's already flown IN SPACE at that point, I'd wager he's got it down pretty good. As far as the rest of the powers go, you're telling me he's NEVER tried to figure out his limits? Go to an empty country and try to lift mountains, test out his heat vision, etc... C'mon. The FIRST thing you'd do when you have a power is find a private place to figure that out. And since Clark has access to the ENTIRE PLANET I'd wager he'd be able to find some privacy.

Yes, as far as we know Clark had never been in a fight before. That might effect his fighting prowess but it shouldn't change his character. Even if he sucks at fighting he should have been thinking of ways to get the fight out of Metropolis or stopping to save people even if he knew it'd give Zod the upper hand in the fight.

I mean... COME ON. With a gust of his breath he could have stopped that. OR held up his hands. Or lifted it up and flown it away. ANYTHING but just stand there and let it slowly slide and blow up the building behind you.

The funny thing is I'm not even against Superman having to kill(read Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow). It's just this was handled so hilariously poor that it rang false.

I listened to a Zack Snyder interview he did before the movie was released, but they released the interview the weekend of the release. He talked about how if they get a sequel it will be based around the destruction, and his killing of Zod. So it's not some thing they just made up after the movie came out and there was concern about people's reactions.

Can you post a link to the interview with Zack that happened before the movie prescreened where he discussed spoilers and the sequel he had planned all along? Because I call BS. Especially when Zack's stated several times that Batman was decided well after Man of Steel's release during possible villain brainstorming.

Batman is introduced because of Man of Steel, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, they even say in the Suicide Squad trailer, these people with power were inspired by Superman. So you couldn't be more wrong.

That doesn't make any sense. I'm not even sure what you're getting at.

[Commenter 42]

This guy get's it.

Purse Grabber doesn't. He wan't's Bruce Wayne with Kryptonian powers. It comes down to taste, and what you want to see.

Superman, this is not. Sorry Leo, I really don't agree with your vision of who Superman is.

[sdp]

Maybe I need to see the movie again, haven't seen it since I saw it in theaters but I really liked the scene were Superman kills Zod. You can tell he doesn't want to but he's got no choice. His hand is forced and he feels absolutely terrible about having done it.

[ZariusTwo]

Here's my hybrid edit of both trailers

[TheSkeletonMan939]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

And Pa Kent is a moron to die over a freaking dog. Any high-school amateur writer could come up with a better way to kill off Pa Kent, a way that doesn't insult everyone's intelligence.

Agreed. And would it have been so unbelievable for Clark to have run to the tornado and back with his dad? I mean... his dad was doing pretty well until he just stopped everything to hold his hand up.

Know what I think would have been better? A mugging. Pa and Clark are in town one night and they get mugged. Clark could easily choose to punch their brains out, but Pa won't let him, since he doesn't want Clark to use his powers for such violence. So Pa gets stabbed or something and dies.

Sure, that's exactly how Batman's parents died, but it makes more sense than the tornado and it gives Batman and Superman a way to relate to each other in the sequel.

Speaking of which, Batman and Superman shouldn't have much to fight about since they're kind of the same person. Both have them have dead parents, both of them are angst-ridden and feel guilt for something that wasn't really their fault, and both of them don't like themselves. There's something wrong with that.

[Jester]

I honestly didn't realize that the woman popping up in the nicely tailored suit throughout the trailer WAS Wondie. It took me a couple viewings to finally realize that this woman they kept flashing to was Diana.

[CyberCubed]

I honestly wonder if anything of Wonder Woman's past will be revealed at all. There's probably no time for anything about the Amazon island or Wonder Woman's history...they'll probably largely ignore it and just portray her as a strong woman.

[ToTheNines]

You get on my nerves.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

I honestly wonder if anything of Wonder Woman's past will be revealed at all. There's probably no time for anything about the Amazon island or Wonder Woman's history...they'll probably largely ignore it and just portray her as a strong woman.

Well, the word is that the Wonder Woman solo film will be set circa World War II. And I hear that the Comic-Con concept art had her standing over a bunch of downed Nazis...

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Jester

I honestly didn't realize that the woman popping up in the nicely tailored suit throughout the trailer WAS Wondie. It took me a couple viewings to finally realize that this woman they kept flashing to was Diana.

And people say Clark's glasses are a terrible disguise. This is exactly why they're brilliant - we see what we want to see.