A thing about Leo

Originally Posted by Weapon X

Raph took Leo out in issue 19, "Return to New York".

Oops! I got the two mixed up!

Originally Posted by Benvenuto

Destiny chose Leonardo as the unofficial leader, not age.

Personally, I think any of the Turtles could be leader. The outcomes would differ, but it's not impossible.

Anybody can be a leader. It's the responsibility that's difficult to take.

While I agree with all this... You guys have to accept that the fact that Leo plays the role of alpha male/big brother does credit him to being the leader among other things.

[Spitfire]

Unless you guys are fans of the old toon I don't see how you don't see what Ryo is trying to say. It's pretty easy to see. Once you all see Season 4 you will totally see what we're trying to say.

[Jester]

I see where she's coming from....I just think it's also a bit one sided....Raph had a chance to lead dog, but that didn't pan out. What's the point of a forum if we all just say "Yep, I totally agree." The discussions are what makes this forum enjoyable.

[XERO]

Originally Posted by Ryona

While I agree with all this... You guys have to accept that the fact that Leo plays the role of alpha male/big brother does credit him to being the leader among other things.

Oh, I accept it. I was just trying to make a point.

Believe me, I accept it.

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

Originally Posted by Jester

Wow....very well written and thought out SLJ....

Hey, thanks!

Originally Posted by Ryona

That's an interesting theory/assumption, but that really is all that is... Just an assumption. We really don't know when and how Leo took the mantle as the alpha male/eldest brother but it's most likely for the most obvious reasons over anything else.

Yeah, definitely, but the point here is that Raphael sees himself as equal to Leonardo-- and perhaps he is indeed equal but very different-- and as such, when his brothers and father side more with Leo, it makes Raph not only jealous, but also he would feel inferior and as though his approach has been ignored or even spit upon, which is never a fun feeling. Whether Raph is older or younger, he still sees himself as an equal partner.

Originally Posted by Ryona

I agree with all this, but you guys seem to think that Raph wants to be incharge. Didn't it accure that he just wants to do things his way?

While he definitely wants to do things his own way, there is probably also the feeling that he gets very little respect, which would add to the bitterness he feels at Leonardo for having a leadership approach that is more widely agreed on by his family.

Originally Posted by Ryona

Like I said to Jester, I don't see any indications of Raph acting as the eldest. This just seems to be more like wishful thinking by certain fans.

I never had a preference between Raph and Leo and never really cared who's older, better, etc. In a fight under normal conditions, Leonardo would win almost every time without too much of a hitch. But Raph does show signs of being an older sibling/ oldest twin who got shafted or neglected.

Originally Posted by Ryona

While that can be the case with a few eldest siblings, it's not very common.

Psychologicly speeking, Leo shows all the traits of the common eldest sibling.
Like I said before, any of the TMNT could physically be the oldest, but logically it would most likely be Leo for obvious reasons.

I dunno about generalizing this type of thing-- after all, there are as many ways to live as there are people in the world. I'm sure there are plenty of older siblings with no emphasis on leadership. In fact, I'll bet there are older siblings with very few connections to their families. I have known actually quite a few younger siblings that provide examples for their older siblings-- not just random cases, either-- and this type of thing could easily cause jealousy. Add to that the turtles are not your average family-- they live an isolated life and have only one parent, for starters.

Originally Posted by Ryona

Now, when you say this, are you refering to that one time in the Mirage comics in City At War?

I think it was Return to New York, but if it happened again in City at War, which I haven't read in a long time, it doesn't really make a difference. The point here was that Raph was angry enough with Leo that he would resort to this much violence. One reason for this could be Leo's tendency to every once in a while claim his word as being the only one, in which case Raph's jealousy-- the kind that results when another sibling comes into the spotlight-- caused him to explode in anger.

Originally Posted by Ryona

Agreed. I'm certainly not saying he couldn't possibly be the oldest, much like Don and Mikey could possibly the oldest, I'mjust saying, Leo is logically and most likely the oldest. ...and Oh, snap! I can't believe I didn't think of this before. Peter Laird himself said Leo is the oldest. Damn! I should have used that a long time ago!

Once again, who's actually oldest doesn't really matter in this case, since their mutations are all so close. Twins and triplets don't usually use the minute or so in between births as fodder for lording over one another, just like the oldest is usually more mature and assumes a leadership role.

Originally Posted by Ryona

Again, just an assumption that Raph had the possition from the start.

Not that he actually had it, but that he could have had it at one point. Surely, since you agreed that Raph and Leo are similar in levels of strength and both have their own way of doing things you would also agree that either of them could have had the role at some point in time. Leo did undisputedly get the role, but Raph is obviously bitter about that fragment less of respect he receives.

[Weapon X]

Can I ask a question, ummmm what exactly is the point behind this thread?

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

Just a little character analysis, I s'pose. Y'know-- having a little fun getting into the heads of some characters from great American literature!

[Jester]

*nods*
And maybe an attempt by Ryo to force respect for leo that may be lacking in other threads, say the "Favorite TMNT" thread...

But I digress....When did Laird say that Leo was in fact the oldest? I'd really like to see this...

[XERO]

This thread is basically for the common Leonardo fan.

You have to respect that.

[Weapon X]

Originally Posted by Benvenuto

This thread is basically for the common Leonardo fan.

You have to respect that.

I was one.

[Jester]

Yeah, but he converted to Raphieism....

[Weapon X]

I really just thought this was a plot to shove Leo onto people who don't take him as their favorite.

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

Originally Posted by Jester

Yeah, but he converted to Raphieism....

Maybe it's because of the whole Renaissance painter name thing, but that totally sounds like an art movement. Either that or religious worship of the children's singer.

[Jester]

Nice one....

*contimplates how Josh will rue this day*

Yeah, I agree and understand what you're basicly saying, Space Lieutenant Josh.

Originally Posted by Jester

Raph had a chance to lead dog, but that didn't pan out.

Since when did he have a chance at leading? Sounds like a made-up tale about something that happened in their childhood years. We can't really count imaginated tales.

Originally Posted by Jester

What's the point of a forum if we all just say "Yep, I totally agree." The discussions are what makes this forum enjoyable.

I agree. It does make for interesting discussions... though it does get tiring to repeat myself all the time, and trying to make myself as clear as possible, and writing my posts in such a way to make them easy to understand by all...






EDIT: *looks at the new posts above*
Wow, guys... Thanks for taking the thread and topic seriously...

[Jester]

Here we go again....with the "It's so simple a child could understand it lines" I do understand, really I do. And I also see where at one point Leo and raph had the chance to helm the fab foursome, Leo's leadership style seems to have taken better, and even Raphie reluctlently falls in line, though at times he is the most vocal voice of oposition to leo's plan. I'm not alone in saying this...but I get the boom droped on me...I may not say it as concisely as josh, but we're on a similar page.

[XERO]

I say 'I agree' because I mean it. Otherwise, I just witness the discussion unless it's something I can relate to.

Don't you agree?

[Jester]

I whole heartedly agree, Benny-V

[Spitfire]

Where is it you base your logic that this thread is to priase Leo. Why would you praise someone who is acting like an asshole? That makes no sense what so ever. And how can you boost someones rep by showing their downfalls? Leo is all the things Ryo has said. We discussed this over MSN. He is better then his brothers, he knows he is, and with that we know he shows off alot. He's the leader and he knows that so he throws his weight around. Raph was never ment to be leader. That was smashed in "Tales Of Leo" Ryo was trying to show you a side of Leo you might not have noticed that's all. Don't mock her for it.

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

In the new show, it's definitely stated that Raph and Leo were at one time both vying for the leadership position. If the new show doesn't count as evidence, this rivalry still seems to be the only thing really tearing them apart. After all, they each have their own way of doing things, and Raph's is generally disagreed on by everyone except him. The only place Leo was "officially" the leader was the original toon-- everywhere else he just displays leadership qualities and is unofficial leader, which leaves room for Raph to openly and vocally dispute him, as Jester claims he does. It all goes back to a sibling rivalry they obviously have with each other-- the question as to why is answered by their both speaking out as to their differing opinons on the direction the team should go in. So, yeah, I'll have to go with Jester on this one-- though their fight for leadership is never blatant or explicitly stated in the Mirage comics, it must have existed at one point just because of their still-differing directions.