Feminist Analyses

[plastroncafe]

I've seen some sexiest TMNT stuff, but mostly in the dark recesses of ff.net...oh and that Tijuana Bible that got posted here a while ago.

...

Oh. You meant sexist. My bad.

[Shredded]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

I've seen some sexiest TMNT stuff, but mostly in the dark recesses of ff.net...oh and that Tijuana Bible that got posted here a while ago.

...

Oh. You meant sexist. My bad.

I'm from Denmark and speak Danish in my every-day life, english is only my second languet.
Excuse me if I make spelling mistakes ones in a while.

[plastroncafe]

It was either take a condescending potshot at your misuse of a word and work it into a sarcastic joke, or attempt to engage you in a reasoned discussion of feminism by referencing your equal condescension and willful ignorance of the topic.

I opted for the former, because while both of them have absolutely no chance eliciting progress, the former was at very least fun to write.

Back to the topic at hand,

I usually don't fancy myself a great lover of feminist analysis in general. I appreciate it for what it is, but I'm kind of crap at articulating it. A lot of times for me it comes down to the question of whether or not to get emotionally involved with the thesis. Which brings up the "Is this hill worthy enough to die on?" question.

When it comes to TMNT, well...I've been dying on that hill since '91, so by this point it's just sheer force of habit.

[Shredded]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

It was either take a condescending potshot at your misuse of a word and work it into a sarcastic joke, or attempt to engage you in a reasoned discussion of feminism by referencing your equal condescension and willful ignorance of the topic.

I opted for the former, because while both of them have absolutely no chance eliciting progress, the former was at very least fun to write.

Back to the topic at hand,

I usually don't fancy myself a great lover of feminist analysis in general. I appreciate it for what it is, but I'm kind of crap at articulating it. A lot of times for me it comes down to the question of whether or not to get emotionally involved with the thesis. Which brings up the "Is this hill worthy enough to die on?" question.

When it comes to TMNT, well...I've been dying on that hill since '91, so by this point it's just sheer force of habit.

I'm sorry, now I was the one being rude.
Just.. long day you know, and some-times you get attacked a lot when talking about these things.

Heh, and well, tone is some-thing that's some-times difficult to decipher in written word.

Again, sorry. This one was on me!

[Oculus Orbus]

I ususally try to avoid discussions of this nature because, being spanish, I feel like I lack the conversational skills needed to properly articulate my ideas, but I guess I'll try anyway.

My main concern here is that I feel like some of you guys might be misinterpreting what feminism is actually about. It is not a reverse way of traditional sexism at all, but rather a set of ideas that focus on the uneven portrayal and state of genders trough society. Of course there are people that claim to be feminists whose ideas are basically as negative as the ones of those they're opposed to, but that shouldn't diminish the actual ideology of feminism. We've lived in a male dominated culture for centuries, and our current society still carries traces of that. I believe this is not really the place to explain such things, and anyone could easily find better information about it on the internet than anything I could probably say here.

Now, having said so, doing a "feminist analyse" on Nick's TMNT doesn't necessarily mean that we have to negatively criticize it. It's a cultural object, aimed at kids and maybe teens, wich inherently is gonna hold certain values that can be studied from any perspective. In my opinion, the show has actually been pretty decent with female characters. It could do better, that's for sure, but I feel like the writers in it are well aware of what they're doing. We've got a core set of male characters that was already established, and that's just fine, I don't think anyone would complain about it. The two female characters we've had so far (not counting the robot) have been built with the same criterion in terms of the quality of the writing than the male ones, where in many other shows the female characters usually have a lesser development. So that's good, and I'm glad to see things slowly moving forward.

One issue I'd like to see addressed here is the use (or abuse) of good-looking female characters. In most shows, they seem to handle better the diversity of men when it comes to their physical appearance. I understand it's perfectly logic that April is gonna look cute, and Karai is gonna have a fit body, but I hope that, given the case, they also explore other options, just like they've done with male characters such as the human form of Spider Bytez. The design on the robot teacher makes me optimist on this subject.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

I find nothing sexist about this show. The TMNT story is about four male mutant turtles - that's the story being told here. Any other character is going to be a supporting character and won't have as much focus. I find it strange that some people think that the amount of female characters vs. the amount of male characters in a show determines whether or not it's sexist.

Originally Posted by Cipher

It doesn't. It's how they're used. It's what they do. It's how stacked that ratio is.

We have two female characters and, yeah, they're all right. But look at the roles they're in, and it's still an extremely stacked deck in a number of ways.

Yeah, it's a boys' action cartoon. But I don't think it's too much to ask why we can't have more gender-neutral shows of this kind. It's not like I wouldn't let my hypothetical daughter watch this show. Again, April and Karai are pretty good, and maybe this show even comes out ahead of others of its kind. But it'd be nice if there were a slightly stronger role model, or a slightly better ratio, you know?

I have to slightly disagree here. I would love to see more shows feature females in lead or non-stereotypical roles, that's a no-brainer. But trying to force more of [insert underused gender/race/sexual orientation here] into a story just to appease certain people hurts the art of storytelling. This isn't the April show, it's about the turtles. The majority of fans don't want to see more focus on April over the turtles, obviously. She's just not as interesting they are and that's not a gender thing, it's just a difference in their characters. I want to watch a show about mutant ninjas, not teenage girls in high school (and there are plenty of shows about that).

See, in trying to make every PC, I feel that we're watering down potentially good stories. There's only one African-American in the show and he's kind of a bumbling fool. Is that wrong? Should we try to represent every race and creed in this show as well? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great to have a diverse cast and I certainly appreciate the inclusion of characters with unique backgrounds.

I make the same argument for feminism that I do for racism in TV and movies. Instead of cramming in more token characters in order to appeal to a certain group, why not make new IPs instead? I'd be thrilled to have an action cartoon with a female lead or leads.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

That right there would be a great first step towards making TMNT a "kids'" show rather than merely a "boys'" show.

And since we're on the topic...
Easy on the "boy's show" talk! Ladies also enjoy action shows, and ones with mainly male casts. Lemme tell you guys the same thing I told my daughter when my niece asked her why she played with "boy's" toys: there is no such thing as boy's and girl's toys/shows. Anyone who says otherwise has been brainwashed by advertisers.

[BubblyShell22]

Uh, Sweaty, you forgot about Carlos Chiang O'Brien Gambe, the Channel Six news guy.

[Hannah]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

I have to slightly disagree here. I would love to see more shows feature females in lead or non-stereotypical roles, that's a no-brainer. But trying to force more of [insert underused gender/race/sexual orientation here] into a story just to appease certain people hurts the art of storytelling. This isn't the April show, it's about the turtles. The majority of fans don't want to see more focus on April over the turtles, obviously. She's just not as interesting they are and that's not a gender thing, it's just a difference in their characters. I want to watch a show about mutant ninjas, not teenage girls in high school (and there are plenty of shows about that).

See, in trying to make every PC, I feel that we're watering down potentially good stories. There's only one African-American in the show and he's kind of a bumbling fool. Is that wrong? Should we try to represent every race and creed in this show as well? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great to have a diverse cast and I certainly appreciate the inclusion of characters with unique backgrounds.

I make the same argument for feminism that I do for racism in TV and movies. Instead of cramming in more token characters in order to appeal to a certain group, why not make new IPs instead? I'd be thrilled to have an action cartoon with a female lead or leads.



And since we're on the topic...
Easy on the "boy's show" talk! Ladies also enjoy action shows, and ones with mainly male casts. Lemme tell you guys the same thing I told my daughter when my niece asked her why she played with "boy's" toys: there is no such thing as boy's and girl's toys/shows. Anyone who says otherwise has been brainwashed by advertisers.

Asking for more characters who aren't straight, white dudes is not the same as "cramming in more token characters." NYC is one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world, and everyone has a story- so why should media portray only a small portion those stories: the ones that focus on straight white men? (The turtles are tricky to label with a race- we assume the last human they touched was Splinter, so we could say they are Japanese... yet they are all portrayed by white voice actors. We also don't know if race is something that even carries over through the mutation process.) But turtles aside, the race representation in this show is pretty good imo. I think we see a decent amount of POC in the background and as recurring characters. Unfortunately, as we've touched on before, so far it hasn't looked good for women's representation. Nick's TMNT is a new entity of it's own. So much of the show is entirely new or an interesting spin on an established idea. Why do you accept changes like the Kraang, or their origin story in general, yet oppose the idea of introducing a more diverse cast?

EDIT: Ideally there shouldn't be strictly boys' shows and girls' shows. But without female characters to identify with, a show that focuses on male characters may alienate female viewers.

[Candy Kappa]

Being a new show and a new take, the Nick show do have a handful of female characters from the various other incarnations to cherry pick and make great episodes of them. We'll just have to see what the future brings.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I actually wish Casey isn't a white guy, btw. But the show has race diversity, so props to that.

EDIT: Ideally there shouldn't be strictly boys' shows and girls' shows. But without female characters to identify with, a show that focuses on male characters may alienate female viewers.

Well, hopefully Nick wouldn't be shy using other female characters that the franchise had years ago.

[Hannah]

I would love to see Casey portrayed as a different race. I'd also loooove for Irma to be a sort of Willow Rosenberg character.

[CyberCubed]

Casey should not be anything but white and male.

[Hannah]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Casey should not be anything but white and male.

If you're gonna get all antsy over the concept of race or gender bending, this thread is probably not for you.

[demonsweat]

Originally Posted by BubblyShell22

Uh, Sweaty, you forgot about Carlos Chiang O'Brien Gambe, the Channel Six news guy.

True. That guy covers a lotta bases!

Originally Posted by Hannah

Asking for more characters who aren't straight, white dudes is not the same as "cramming in more token characters." NYC is one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world, and everyone has a story- so why should media portray only a small portion those stories: the ones that focus on straight white men? (The turtles are tricky to label with a race- we assume the last human they touched was Splinter, so we could say they are Japanese... yet they are all portrayed by white voice actors. We also don't know if race is something that even carries over through the mutation process.) But turtles aside, the race representation in this show is pretty good imo. I think we see a decent amount of POC in the background and as recurring characters. Unfortunately, as we've touched on before, so far it hasn't looked good for women's representation. Nick's TMNT is a new entity of it's own. So much of the show is entirely new or an interesting spin on an established idea. Why do you accept changes like the Kraang, or their origin story in general, yet oppose the idea of introducing a more diverse cast?

I don't oppose a diverse cast at all. I just don't think it necessary to create characters based on whether or not they represent real life groups. Let the story drive that. If the writers want to put in female characters, great. If not, I'm okay with what we have. See, to me it's more important that the existing female characters are portrayed well (ie, not as stereotypes). This isn't a show about April and Karai. They are supporting characters only -they should get about as much air time as any of the other male supporting characters, right?

I guess I'm not understanding what it is that you think is a poor representation of women here. The only two arguments I've seen in this thread are:

1. There are less females than males on the show, and
2. The existing female characters don't get enough focus/air time.

Point one isn't really valid because there have been several background female faces plus two supporting characters and a robo-villain. And it's way early in the show. I doubt these are the only females we're going to see before the end.

Point two I've already refuted. The story is about the turtles, who are four guys. You can't label something as sexist just because the main character(s) are male.

You're welcome to your opinion of course, but I can't agree with this. I don't want every show I watch or book I read to have an equal amount of male/female, white/black/asian/mixed, LGBT, human/mutant/furry, etc. I want characters to be created for the purpose of the story, not to satisfy an audience.

I do understand the concern for a lack of identifiable females and/or role models in the media. I'd just like to see more females in non-traditional, non-stereotypical roles all across the board. Which is something I think this show is doing a fine job of so far. My little girl runs around the house pretending to be Karai - not because she's "hot" or Leo's love interest... but because she's as ass-kicking ninja.

[CyberCubed]

Originally Posted by Hannah

If you're gonna get all antsy over the concept of race or gender bending, this thread is probably not for you.

Changing established characters races or gender's just for "token diversity" is a ridiculous thing to do. Introduce a new character if you want your token black/spanish/asian/indian/gay/lesbian character.

There's no reason to change what characters have been for over 25 years.

[Hannah]

Originally Posted by demonsweat

I don't oppose a diverse cast at all. I just don't think it necessary to create characters based on whether or not they represent real life groups. Let the story drive that. If the writers want to put in female characters, great. If not, I'm okay with what we have. See, to me it's more important that the existing female characters are portrayed well (ie, not as stereotypes). This isn't a show about April and Karai. They are supporting characters only -they should get about as much air time as any of the other male supporting characters, right?

I guess I'm not understanding what it is that you think is a poor representation of women here. The only two arguments I've seen in this thread are:

1. There are less females than males on the show, and
2. The existing female characters don't get enough focus/air time.

Point one isn't really valid because there have been several background female faces plus two supporting characters and a robo-villain. And it's way early in the show. I doubt these are the only females we're going to see before the end.

Point two I've already refuted. The story is about the turtles, who are four guys. You can't label something as sexist just because the main character(s) are male.

You're welcome to your opinion of course, but I can't agree with this. I don't want every show I watch or book I read to have an equal amount of male/female, white/black/asian/mixed, LGBT, human/mutant/furry, etc. I want characters to be created for the purpose of the story, not to satisfy an audience.

I do understand the concern for a lack of identifiable females and/or role models in the media. I'd just like to see more females in non-traditional, non-stereotypical roles all across the board. Which is something I think this show is doing a fine job of so far. My little girl runs around the house pretending to be Karai - not because she's "hot" or Leo's love interest... but because she's as ass-kicking ninja.

The problem is that you are assuming that any female/POC inclusion means it's just happening to satisfy a certain audience, and not for the purpose of the story. If your writing for a show set in New York City doesn't involve women and people who aren't white more than occasionally, then your writing isn't at it's best.

Also, it's not just that there are fewer ladies- there are only two female characters while there are what, like, 23 male characters?

[Hannah]

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Changing established characters races or gender's just for "token diversity" is a ridiculous thing to do. Introduce a new character if you want your token black/spanish/asian/indian/gay/lesbian character.

There's no reason to change what characters have been for over 25 years.

if you think that wanting a character to not be white is just for "token diversity" and not for, i dunno, a more interesting character

sorry but you're an idiot.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I wouldn't mind Casey having a mixed heritage, for example. I'm sure those exist in NYC.

As much as I would like April to look like her early Mirage counterpart, I can understand why she became a caucasian redhead, and that didn't change even in 2K3 (whereas Baxter Stockman reverted back as a black guy like in the comics).

[ToTheNines]

Originally Posted by Avatar Yuffie

I actually wish Casey isn't a white guy, btw. But the show has race diversity, so props to that.

Total speculation here, but I've noticed that one of the Purple Dragon's (the big one) name is Sid, same as Casey's notorious sh*t head cousin.

Not saying it's definitely hinting, but it's possible that he'll turn out to be CJ's cousin and that Casey's half Asian. That'd be really cool. To be specific, I think all the Dragon's are Chinese.

Originally Posted by Hannah

If you're gonna get all antsy over the concept of race or gender bending, this thread is probably not for you.

Are you kidding? This forum isn't for him.

[Powder]

Originally Posted by Hannah

if you think that wanting a character to not be white is just for "token diversity" and not for, i dunno, a more interesting character

sorry but you're an idiot.

Except for Michael Jackson, who has ever been more interesting after having their color changed? What a ridiculous concept. It's like you're going out of your way to look super tolerant but instead you're making yourself look foolish.