MIRAGE VOL.4 - ISSUE #10 [MAJOR SPOILER] - Page 4

*Tetsu Deinonychus* · 06-11-2003, 08:46 PM

Yeah but at least Chewbacca didn't die in the movies. That's what this is like.

And yeah, Splinter should have gone down fighting! If at all.

**ThirdMarioBro** · 06-11-2003, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltron

HE'S DEAD? WHAT POINT IS THERE TO LIFE ANYMORE? If you need me I'll be sobbing in the dark....

I'll be there with ya buddy. This feels like a knife in the neck. I can't believe he's really gone. Life seems so empty now. How could they do this. I hope this new animated series lasts a long time now, because it's the only place that has our beloved Master Splinter. IF THEY EVER (and I know we're a long way from it) KILL SPLINTER IN THE SHOW THEY WILL PAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And yes cartoon characters can die. Poor Splinter. This is a dark day, truely it is.

MzTheInsomniac · 06-11-2003, 10:18 PM

anyone notice the rat king in the death scene

~~Leo656~~ · 06-11-2003, 10:26 PM

Yup.

Stefano · 06-11-2003, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MzTheInsomniac

anyone notice the rat king in the death scene

I already mentioned it

Peanut · 06-11-2003, 11:07 PM

I'm creating a black arm band with an S on.

VeryLaZ · 06-11-2003, 11:29 PM

Does anyone know what the significance of the Rat King was? Just now getting into the comics and only following the old cartoon, I was a bit puzzled by this, is he a ghos or something, trying to warn splinter?

*Tetsu Deinonychus* · 06-12-2003, 12:02 AM

Rat King appeared as a ghost in "City at War" and saved Splinter's life. He's kinda like a guardian angel for him. A creepy one though.

DJRuden · 06-12-2003, 12:18 AM

I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but what I thought was as interesting at the rat king thing, was how it kept panning out and came full circle by showing the cat eating the bird that splinter fed earlier.
People get down on Lawsons art, but I thought that was really spectacular how he did that.

EZweasel · 06-12-2003, 02:38 AM

I dont believe splinter is actually dead. its to be continued. Splinter will leave on . dont worry

Donatello 3:16 · 06-12-2003, 10:03 AM

what is that thing in don's (i think) hand it looks like a wierd toothpick.

**HorseTechie** · 06-12-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donatello 3:16

what is that thing in don's (i think) hand it looks like a wierd toothpick.

Heh... I was wondering what the heck that was too. Until I read al the way through the comic. It's a (cell?) phone. It's also supposed to be Leo holding it, since he recieved the news first.

Wow... I feel silly now for thinking it would be a human, like April, that dies. I even believed what Laird said in an email a year or so ago that he planned to keep Splinter around.

But I guess I should have heeded the forwarnings (like in Mirage Vol. 2). The biggest clue, was in the CGI clips. Remember those? Where they had Splinter's body on a slab with candles all around, and Leo paying him his respects? I'm not that upset witrh his death... not yet at least. Strange. I guess I read on too many fanfic where he had passed on, so that this doesn't strike me hard.

I do like the set up to that moment. The simplance of the 'circle of life'. And the ghost of the Rat King acting as Splinter's Grim Reaper... or spiritual guardian, to take him away.

His body is no more.. but then I do wonder if Splinter will still be around in spirit. In your classic Obi Wan Kenobi way. Another friend of mine who read the comic, thought maybe Splinter was giving the Turtles and the Turtlebots a hand during April's darkest hour. Like one life was lost so another could be spared. Deep...

The plot also thickens with this rather familar terrorist/Xmen plot device forming against the aliens. Hrmmm..

Now.. about all this with Lawson's art 'sucking muck', shesh. Can it, will yah? Sure, he may not draw beautifully like Frank Miller, Jack Kirby, or Stan Lee, but what style he does have is quite unique. In a Picasso sort of way. Of course, not everyone likes Picasso's style, but it is still note worthy enough to be considered fine art. You try to draw people in action in fifty different poses with no references to go by, and you'll realize it's a lot harder that it seems. Reason number one I'm staying away from the comic book business!

I'm sure many you have the comic now have read the litlte segment from Lawson in regards to his style. Simply put, he said he WANTS to draw that way. I also will admit my heart went out for Lawson when he said that everyone hated him. *tsk* The gall of some fans to 'diss' him so much that it leaves him with that impression.

[EDIT - I was referring to real dissing of Lawson's art, by saying it "SUCKED" along with other rude/derogatory ways of expressing how bad it is. I don't mind the politely stated opinions about how bad his art is. ]

~~PWDESAI~~ · 06-12-2003, 01:54 PM

Excuse me, you are a mod, you should know by now that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You of all people should understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinon. In my opinion, his art SUCKS, it's barely even art. I understand what the man feels, if he feels so bad about it he'll change it, or leave. Obviously he doesn't feel that bad.

Regarding everything as canon, in my opinion this book is just to tell Peter's way, just because he is the creator doesn't make this "100% official" I agree the old mirage comics are, but he doesn't even have Eastman anymore. I hate all this alien garbage, so I just like to stick to the Cartoon and the Dreamwave book. I would also like to note that both sell much better than this comic. I understand other people's opinions, and they can keep them, but these are my own and unless krang comes in here and deletes or edits my post, I'm allowed to say them.

~~Leo656~~ · 06-12-2003, 02:15 PM

Well, as one of the people who gets reamed for criticizing Lawson's art the most, I feel compelled to reply to that.

For one, I don't dislike the guy on any personal level.

Secondly, as I've said before, if you take a position where your creative endeavors are on display for all to see, and you can't handle people telling you they don't like it, well, then, you're in the wrong business. Criticizing someone's art isn't "gall", it's called "free speech" and "letting one's opinions be known."

Third, it's all well and good that he wants to draw that way. But again, if people don't like it, and they say so, then he has to be prepared to deal with criticism. I mean, if that hurts his feelings that's a shame, but that's the nature of the beast.

Fourth... look, I just have to say this. People defending Lawson's art by saying "he's been the artist on TMNT since the beginning, therefore he's the best and deserves to be on the book now"... I don't accept that. Joe Shuster was one of Superman's co-creators and the original penciller for the series, but when better artists became available, Shuster stepped aside because, in all honesty, even though he created the character, his art was crude even by the standards of the time. To me, making the book the best it can possibly be in ALL areas (story AND art) should be more important than patting someone on the back for something they did years ago. Lawson may be the "definitive" Mirage TMNT artist to many people, but then again, how many regular pencillers did Mirage have woking on the book back then?

I'll compare Lawson to two other much-loved creative talents within the industry: John Byrne and Dan Jurgens. Byrne's worked on some of the most famous and popular characters in history, with runs on Superman, X-Men, Fantastic 4, Wonder Woman, and many others. Dan Jurgens can say the same, having done art and writing for Superman, Justice League, G.I. Joe (current series), Tomb Raider, Thor, Spider-Man, Captain America, and the Marvel vs DC mini-series of a few years back. Now, both of these guys have been called "the definitive artist/writer" for many of the books they've worked on for one simple reason: talent. They are, quite simply, two of the best in the industry, bar none. Maybe I'm just spoiled, but when John Byrne draws Superman, it looks like Superman. When he draws Batman, it looks like Batman. And when he draws Clark Kent and Jimmy Olsen standing next to each other, I can tell who is who.

So imagine how much it hurts my eyes trying to tell the human characters apart in Vol 4, considering that almost all of them look exactly alike. In a black and white book, the penciller's job is even more important because he doesn't have the benefit of various inks and colors as a "safety net". That said, maybe I'd appreciate Lawson's current style better if it were in color. And I say current style because to me, like many others have said, I think his art was better years ago.

I will grant that he draws the turtles themselves quite well, but that area is about the only place he succeeds. In that case, I don't see how anyone could say he was prolific as a penciller. To bring up Jurgens again, the reason DC selected him to draw the DC/Marvel book was because the guy, quite simply, can draw anything and anyone and do it WELL. That's why his resume is so extensive. Say that Lawson's style is "unique" all you want, but in closeups I have a hard time telling Casey and April apart, and that's just plain bad.

In my personal opinion, I think the best thing to do would be make Lawson the promotional artist for the TMNT, playing to his strengths (drawing the turtles themselves) and eliminating his weaknesses (drawing everyone else). That way he wouldn't be out of the TMNT "loop", and someone with a little bit wider range and a cleaner style could take over the main penciling chores.

Look, I know I'm gonna catch flak for this, but my criticism of Lawson isn't because of anything personal, it's simply because I want the TMNT book to succeed. I want the widest possible audience to read it, like it, and keep reading it, and that won't happen as long as Mirage does nothing but cater to their niche fanbase and ignore everyone else. Quite simply, the number of people (and I mean people in general, not just TMNT fans) who like Lawson's art is a much smaller number than the number of people who dislike it. Most people aren't very familiar with Jim Lawson, his history with the TMNT, or his style, and therefore are a little less forgiving. I, myself, know many people who are TMNT fans who do NOT buy the new book because of the fact they just don't like the art. Comics ARE a visual medium, relying as much on art as script to tell a story, and both art AND story should be as good as they can be. They aren't right now, and it does make a difference.

That's all I really have to say at this point, and I strongly suggest that any replies to this post or any further comments about Lawson in general should be made in a new thread. That's probably a good idea anyway, since it'll keep things from getting any further OT in here and I just know how people hate that.

~~PWDESAI~~ · 06-12-2003, 02:26 PM

I agree with you, Comics are a visual medium, if they didn't rely on good artistry they would be novels or something else.

I can't say I like his turtles either. Compare issue #1 cover to any other cover not drawn and then painted by michael dooney. Dooney has some major talent, but not even he can fix the crap Lawson puts out. I don't care if anyone here flames me or dislikes me for saying it, but Lawson's art sucks. I don't know him on a personal level, he coule be a nice guy, maybe I would keep these comments to myself, but I can't and I won't.

Keno · 06-12-2003, 02:26 PM

I think Splinter should stay dead, because well, it was his time. But I wouldnt mind if they had him as a spirit guiding them somehow.

I honestly never noticed the art until everyone started bringing it up. I dont really mind it. thats his style and i accept it, its not gonna change

O yah, and the Nano TurtleBots were kinda cute!

~~Leo656~~ · 06-12-2003, 02:29 PM

I first noticed Lawson when he drew a few early issues of "TMNT Adventures" for Archie. I had no idea about Mirage, no idea who Lawson was, but even at the age of 7 I thought the art was bad and was upset by the absence of the regular penciller. ((shrug))

~~TheShredder~~ · 06-12-2003, 05:08 PM

What I was trying to say was he may be dead in the Mirage Universe. But we'll still see him in other TMNT media so he's not gone.

~~PWDESAI~~ · 06-12-2003, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

I first noticed Lawson when he drew a few early issues of "TMNT Adventures" for Archie. I had no idea about Mirage, no idea who Lawson was, but even at the age of 7 I thought the art was bad and was upset by the absence of the regular penciller. ((shrug))

That's exactly how I felt, especially the horrible movie adaption he did.

*Tetsu Deinonychus* · 06-12-2003, 05:51 PM

Well Lawson did do some crappy artwork in the Archie series but alot of his old Mirage work is fine, like Return to NY and Volume 2. Also those colored pencil pinups are breathtaking. But, his Volume 4 work just isn't that great. Not great at all.

Back on Topic: I do like the idea of Splinter as a spirit guide. That would be a decent direction after this.

06-11-2003, 08:46 PM	#61
Tetsu Deinonychus The Iron Dinosaur Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Studio Snowlion HQ Posts: 3,021	Yeah but at least Chewbacca didn't die in the movies. That's what this is like. And yeah, Splinter should have gone down fighting! If at all. __________________ (Image hosting by Postimage.org) And here's a list of all my old wacky threads!

06-11-2003, 10:18 PM	#63
MzTheInsomniac Stone Warrior Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Daaaaaaayton O hi O Posts: 680	anyone notice the rat king in the death scene __________________ www.wheeljack.com BEETCH GO THERE!!!!

06-12-2003, 12:02 AM	#68
Tetsu Deinonychus The Iron Dinosaur Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Studio Snowlion HQ Posts: 3,021	Rat King appeared as a ghost in "City at War" and saved Splinter's life. He's kinda like a guardian angel for him. A creepy one though. __________________ (Image hosting by Postimage.org) And here's a list of all my old wacky threads!

06-12-2003, 12:18 AM	#69
DJRuden New Recruit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: IOWA Posts: 4	I'm surprised no one mentioned this, but what I thought was as interesting at the rat king thing, was how it kept panning out and came full circle by showing the cat eating the bird that splinter fed earlier. People get down on Lawsons art, but I thought that was really spectacular how he did that. __________________ ----------- later DJ

06-12-2003, 02:38 AM	#70
EZweasel Stone Warrior Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 847	I dont believe splinter is actually dead. its to be continued. Splinter will leave on . dont worry __________________

06-11-2003, 10:26 PM	#64
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Yup.

06-11-2003, 11:07 PM	#66
Peanut Second Gear Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The New World Posts: 15,422	I'm creating a black arm band with an S on.

06-11-2003, 11:29 PM	#67
VeryLaZ New Recruit Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 3	Does anyone know what the significance of the Rat King was? Just now getting into the comics and only following the old cartoon, I was a bit puzzled by this, is he a ghos or something, trying to warn splinter?

06-12-2003, 10:03 AM	#71
Donatello 3:16 Random Punk Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Lincoln, Nebraska Posts: 33	what is that thing in don's (i think) hand it looks like a wierd toothpick. __________________ Mikey:"COWABUNGA!" Raph:"Hey mikey, I told you no more cowabunga!"

06-12-2003, 01:54 PM	#73
~~PWDESAI~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,873	Excuse me, you are a mod, you should know by now that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. You of all people should understand that everyone is entitled to their own opinon. In my opinion, his art SUCKS, it's barely even art. I understand what the man feels, if he feels so bad about it he'll change it, or leave. Obviously he doesn't feel that bad. Regarding everything as canon, in my opinion this book is just to tell Peter's way, just because he is the creator doesn't make this "100% official" I agree the old mirage comics are, but he doesn't even have Eastman anymore. I hate all this alien garbage, so I just like to stick to the Cartoon and the Dreamwave book. I would also like to note that both sell much better than this comic. I understand other people's opinions, and they can keep them, but these are my own and unless krang comes in here and deletes or edits my post, I'm allowed to say them.

06-12-2003, 02:15 PM	#74
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Well, as one of the people who gets reamed for criticizing Lawson's art the most, I feel compelled to reply to that. For one, I don't dislike the guy on any personal level. Secondly, as I've said before, if you take a position where your creative endeavors are on display for all to see, and you can't handle people telling you they don't like it, well, then, you're in the wrong business. Criticizing someone's art isn't "gall", it's called "free speech" and "letting one's opinions be known." Third, it's all well and good that he wants to draw that way. But again, if people don't like it, and they say so, then he has to be prepared to deal with criticism. I mean, if that hurts his feelings that's a shame, but that's the nature of the beast. Fourth... look, I just have to say this. People defending Lawson's art by saying "he's been the artist on TMNT since the beginning, therefore he's the best and deserves to be on the book now"... I don't accept that. Joe Shuster was one of Superman's co-creators and the original penciller for the series, but when better artists became available, Shuster stepped aside because, in all honesty, even though he created the character, his art was crude even by the standards of the time. To me, making the book the best it can possibly be in ALL areas (story AND art) should be more important than patting someone on the back for something they did years ago. Lawson may be the "definitive" Mirage TMNT artist to many people, but then again, how many regular pencillers did Mirage have woking on the book back then? I'll compare Lawson to two other much-loved creative talents within the industry: John Byrne and Dan Jurgens. Byrne's worked on some of the most famous and popular characters in history, with runs on Superman, X-Men, Fantastic 4, Wonder Woman, and many others. Dan Jurgens can say the same, having done art and writing for Superman, Justice League, G.I. Joe (current series), Tomb Raider, Thor, Spider-Man, Captain America, and the Marvel vs DC mini-series of a few years back. Now, both of these guys have been called "the definitive artist/writer" for many of the books they've worked on for one simple reason: talent. They are, quite simply, two of the best in the industry, bar none. Maybe I'm just spoiled, but when John Byrne draws Superman, it looks like Superman. When he draws Batman, it looks like Batman. And when he draws Clark Kent and Jimmy Olsen standing next to each other, I can tell who is who. So imagine how much it hurts my eyes trying to tell the human characters apart in Vol 4, considering that almost all of them look exactly alike. In a black and white book, the penciller's job is even more important because he doesn't have the benefit of various inks and colors as a "safety net". That said, maybe I'd appreciate Lawson's current style better if it were in color. And I say current style because to me, like many others have said, I think his art was better years ago. I will grant that he draws the turtles themselves quite well, but that area is about the only place he succeeds. In that case, I don't see how anyone could say he was prolific as a penciller. To bring up Jurgens again, the reason DC selected him to draw the DC/Marvel book was because the guy, quite simply, can draw anything and anyone and do it WELL. That's why his resume is so extensive. Say that Lawson's style is "unique" all you want, but in closeups I have a hard time telling Casey and April apart, and that's just plain bad. In my personal opinion, I think the best thing to do would be make Lawson the promotional artist for the TMNT, playing to his strengths (drawing the turtles themselves) and eliminating his weaknesses (drawing everyone else). That way he wouldn't be out of the TMNT "loop", and someone with a little bit wider range and a cleaner style could take over the main penciling chores. Look, I know I'm gonna catch flak for this, but my criticism of Lawson isn't because of anything personal, it's simply because I want the TMNT book to succeed. I want the widest possible audience to read it, like it, and keep reading it, and that won't happen as long as Mirage does nothing but cater to their niche fanbase and ignore everyone else. Quite simply, the number of people (and I mean people in general, not just TMNT fans) who like Lawson's art is a much smaller number than the number of people who dislike it. Most people aren't very familiar with Jim Lawson, his history with the TMNT, or his style, and therefore are a little less forgiving. I, myself, know many people who are TMNT fans who do NOT buy the new book because of the fact they just don't like the art. Comics ARE a visual medium, relying as much on art as script to tell a story, and both art AND story should be as good as they can be. They aren't right now, and it does make a difference. That's all I really have to say at this point, and I strongly suggest that any replies to this post or any further comments about Lawson in general should be made in a new thread. That's probably a good idea anyway, since it'll keep things from getting any further OT in here and I just know how people hate that.

06-12-2003, 02:26 PM	#75
~~PWDESAI~~ Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,873	I agree with you, Comics are a visual medium, if they didn't rely on good artistry they would be novels or something else. I can't say I like his turtles either. Compare issue #1 cover to any other cover not drawn and then painted by michael dooney. Dooney has some major talent, but not even he can fix the crap Lawson puts out. I don't care if anyone here flames me or dislikes me for saying it, but Lawson's art sucks. I don't know him on a personal level, he coule be a nice guy, maybe I would keep these comments to myself, but I can't and I won't.

06-12-2003, 02:26 PM	#76
Keno Foot Soldier Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Toronto Posts: 244	I think Splinter should stay dead, because well, it was his time. But I wouldnt mind if they had him as a spirit guiding them somehow. I honestly never noticed the art until everyone started bringing it up. I dont really mind it. thats his style and i accept it, its not gonna change O yah, and the Nano TurtleBots were kinda cute! __________________ When you're in trouble don't give in and go sour try and rely on YOUR turtle power!!

06-12-2003, 02:29 PM	#77
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	I first noticed Lawson when he drew a few early issues of "TMNT Adventures" for Archie. I had no idea about Mirage, no idea who Lawson was, but even at the age of 7 I thought the art was bad and was upset by the absence of the regular penciller. ((shrug))

06-12-2003, 05:08 PM	#78
~~TheShredder~~ Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: My Throne Room Posts: 442	What I was trying to say was he may be dead in the Mirage Universe. But we'll still see him in other TMNT media so he's not gone.

06-12-2003, 05:51 PM	#80
Tetsu Deinonychus The Iron Dinosaur Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Studio Snowlion HQ Posts: 3,021	Well Lawson did do some crappy artwork in the Archie series but alot of his old Mirage work is fine, like Return to NY and Volume 2. Also those colored pencil pinups are breathtaking. But, his Volume 4 work just isn't that great. Not great at all. Back on Topic: I do like the idea of Splinter as a spirit guide. That would be a decent direction after this. __________________ (Image hosting by Postimage.org) And here's a list of all my old wacky threads!