Do you like the way Donnie acts around April this series?

[Leo656]

I'm only intimately familiar with about half of the stories people are discussing, but just for my two cents, I have no problem with shipping, or seemingly mismatched pairings, but as far as the "Love at first sight" thing, it's a product of a simpler time that kind of needs to go away. Not to stir any sh*t, but it's been scientifically disproven multiple times. You can NOT fall in love at first sight. Love's a little bit more complex than, "OMG... Dat ass! I'm in LOVE!" Attraction, sure, that definitely happens, but attraction isn't love.

In ye olden days - and especially in eras and places where things like teenage weddings and arranged marriages were common - it was a convenient idea to put in people's heads, that you can find your "soul mate" immediately. It made sense then, not only for society, but also in fiction. For starters, women "back in the day" weren't encouraged, or even allowed, to actually... you know... date around, meet new people, try and sort it all out for themselves, struggle with crippling doubts and insecurity... any of that stuff that happens in real life, y'know? For ages, both in fiction and real life, women were told, "Don't worry about any of that. When you meet The One, you'll just know. There'll be fireworks and rainbows shooting out of his ass, it's gonna be awesome. Love at first sight, it never fails."

Except, we're more sophisticated now than we were even 50 years ago, and we all know that's all BS. We've completely narrowed "love at first sight" down to, more or less, a primitive human urge to breed, and it fades incredibly fast. So, since we know it's not real, I'm less accepting of it in newer fiction than I am in stuff like, older Disney films, for example. I can handle how they told those stories back then, as a product of their time, and to be honest, they're charming. But we're past that as a species now. I *still* run into chicks - grown women - who swear they're gonna find a "Prince Charming" one day, and it's going to be just like a movie. I don't have any explanation for this, as it's completely asinine. And I can only assume it persists because some people still buy into these *highly fictional* explorations of "love" and relationships.

So, no, for me, explaining Donnie's crush - and its intensity, and how committed he is to it and how much of his time it occupies - by saying, "well, other great stories have worked the 'love at first sight' gimmick too, so, y'know, all's fair," doesn't really wash. It's an outdated concept that has no place in modern society, or storytelling, except to make the character who believes in it - Donnie, in this case - to look like a complete toolbox. It is kinda funny how someone so scientifically-minded as him could become so irrationally emotional over anything, but I'd argue his character isn't any *better* for it. It doesn't make him in any way endearing. I'unno. It just makes him seem like an irrational, needy, emotionally-desperate loony toon.

[BubblyShell22]

I hear you there, Leo. I don't believe in love at first sight either and never did. When I met my BF, we were just friends at first, and it just sort of blossomed from there over time. I never expected us to get together or be in a relationship and was just happy being around him and vice-versa. Then it just sort of happened and we've been together almost eleven years. But at the time, I just wasn't looking for it or expecting anything to come of it, and it's worked out. I think the problem is that people are in a rush to have a relationship because they believe that it's the norm in society to be married and have kids at a certain age. However, it doesn't have to be that way if you don't want it to be. I'm not going to get married or have kids because I just don't want to and don't have to. People can judge me all they want, but it's not something I want for myself because sometimes it doesn't always work out, and I don't want to go through that. I'd rather just live in common law and leave it at that.

But as for Donnie, you have to remember that he's only been exposed to love through television, so it makes sense that he'd believe in that after seeing April. You can be smart in some areas, but it doesn't mean you're smart in others. I've met people like that who are very intelligent book wise but who aren't so adept at relationships or know how to handle them, and that's okay. They eventually learn, and Donnie will, too. I guess I'm just the type to excuse it in Donnie because of how he's lived for most of his life and not really knowing the ins and outs of the world.

[Netkeeper]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'm only intimately familiar with about half of the stories people are discussing, but just for my two cents, I have no problem with shipping, or seemingly mismatched pairings, but as far as the "Love at first sight" thing, it's a product of a simpler time that kind of needs to go away. Not to stir any sh*t, but it's been scientifically disproven multiple times. You can NOT fall in love at first sight. Love's a little bit more complex than, "OMG... Dat ass! I'm in LOVE!" Attraction, sure, that definitely happens, but attraction isn't love.

In ye olden days - and especially in eras and places where things like teenage weddings and arranged marriages were common - it was a convenient idea to put in people's heads, that you can find your "soul mate" immediately. It made sense then, not only for society, but also in fiction. For starters, women "back in the day" weren't encouraged, or even allowed, to actually... you know... date around, meet new people, try and sort it all out for themselves, struggle with crippling doubts and insecurity... any of that stuff that happens in real life, y'know? For ages, both in fiction and real life, women were told, "Don't worry about any of that. When you meet The One, you'll just know. There'll be fireworks and rainbows shooting out of his ass, it's gonna be awesome. Love at first sight, it never fails."

Except, we're more sophisticated now than we were even 50 years ago, and we all know that's all BS. We've completely narrowed "love at first sight" down to, more or less, a primitive human urge to breed, and it fades incredibly fast. So, since we know it's not real, I'm less accepting of it in newer fiction than I am in stuff like, older Disney films, for example. I can handle how they told those stories back then, as a product of their time, and to be honest, they're charming. But we're past that as a species now. I *still* run into chicks - grown women - who swear they're gonna find a "Prince Charming" one day, and it's going to be just like a movie. I don't have any explanation for this, as it's completely asinine. And I can only assume it persists because some people still buy into these *highly fictional* explorations of "love" and relationships.

So, no, for me, explaining Donnie's crush - and its intensity, and how committed he is to it and how much of his time it occupies - by saying, "well, other great stories have worked the 'love at first sight' gimmick too, so, y'know, all's fair," doesn't really wash. It's an outdated concept that has no place in modern society, or storytelling, except to make the character who believes in it - Donnie, in this case - to look like a complete toolbox. It is kinda funny how someone so scientifically-minded as him could become so irrationally emotional over anything, but I'd argue his character isn't any *better* for it. It doesn't make him in any way endearing. I'unno. It just makes him seem like an irrational, needy, emotionally-desperate loony toon.

Another amazing post by Leo656. Love every bit of it.

[saintsaucey]

I weep for this cynical jaded world.

[Leo656]

I will grant that in this show, it's a little more understandable given how sheltered and generally immature these TMNT are, but that's another issue I have with this show. I know some people swear that they're "finally acting like teenagers", but I disagree vehemently. Maybe it's a regional thing. Based on people I knew, in the area I live, most teens acted more like the 2K3 TMNT, whereas the Nick Turtles act like they're 12. I mean, I knew a *few* kids Freshman year who were a little like Mikey, but they were on a sh*tload of drugs.

I get that the decision to make these Turtles skew younger is just a choice, and that it's apparently popular with lot of folks, but I prefer my Turtles a little bit less immature. I "get" how this version of Donnie almost justifies the obsessive, needy nature, but in the end, it's a choice to portray him as being that young and immature, and since it doesn't help the character, I can't say it's a choice I agree with.

I'unno, diff'rent strokes. I don't "dislike" any of the Turtles in any incarnation, but Donnie is usually my "least favorite" to begin with, and sadly, on this show, I just can't stand him.

[JTH]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I will grant that in this show, it's a little more understandable given how sheltered and generally immature these TMNT are, but that's another issue I have with this show. I know some people swear that they're "finally acting like teenagers", but I disagree vehemently. Maybe it's a regional thing. Based on people I knew, in the area I live, most teens acted more like the 2K3 TMNT, whereas the Nick Turtles act like they're 12. I mean, I knew a *few* kids Freshman year who were a little like Mikey, but they were on a sh*tload of drugs.

It's a different era, when we were kids, we got spanked.

The teens these days got time outs, and were not properly disciplined like us.

[saintsaucey]

Originally Posted by jth

It's a different era, when we were kids, we got spanked.

The teens these days got time outs, and were not properly disciplined like us.

I got both...my mom asked.me once which I.wanted a spanking or a time out. I said spanking. (To get it over with) so she sent me to the corner. "It wouldn't be a punishment if you got to choose."

[Netkeeper]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I will grant that in this show, it's a little more understandable given how sheltered and generally immature these TMNT are, but that's another issue I have with this show. I know some people swear that they're "finally acting like teenagers", but I disagree vehemently. Maybe it's a regional thing. Based on people I knew, in the area I live, most teens acted more like the 2K3 TMNT, whereas the Nick Turtles act like they're 12. I mean, I knew a *few* kids Freshman year who were a little like Mikey, but they were on a sh*tload of drugs.

I get that the decision to make these Turtles skew younger is just a choice, and that it's apparently popular with lot of folks, but I prefer my Turtles a little bit less immature. I "get" how this version of Donnie almost justifies the obsessive, needy nature, but in the end, it's a choice to portray him as being that young and immature, and since it doesn't help the character, I can't say it's a choice I agree with.

I'unno, diff'rent strokes. I don't "dislike" any of the Turtles in any incarnation, but Donnie is usually my "least favorite" to begin with, and sadly, on this show, I just can't stand him.

You should keep talking, because everything you say is wonderful and grand and you're basically doing my job for me which makes you fantastic.

Makes me wish forums had "like" functions.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by saintsaucey

I got both...my mom asked.me once which I.wanted a spanking or a time out. I said spanking. (To get it over with) so she sent me to the corner. "It wouldn't be a punishment if you got to choose."

ZING! Total Mom-swerve.

"You lied to me, Mom!"
"Kid, when you're old enough, you'll realize that all I DID was lie to you from the day you were born until the time you got out of the house. That's the entire Parental Job Description: ALWAYS be deceitful with your kids! Now f*ck off, Mommy's drinkin' show is on."

Originally Posted by Netkeeper

You should keep talking, because everything you say is wonderful and grand and you're basically doing my job for me which makes you fantastic.

Makes me wish forums had "like" functions.

Sometimes it's tough to balance being incredibly good-looking with the mutant power of being right about absolutely everything, along with carrying these buckets and buckets of grace and humility. But, this is the life I've chosen. "GOD OF THUNDAAAAAAAAAAHH!"

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I'unno. It just makes him seem like an irrational, needy, emotionally-desperate loony toon.

In other words... A teenager?

[Leo656]

Eh, not all of 'em.

[Netkeeper]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Sometimes it's tough to balance being incredibly good-looking with the mutant power of being right about absolutely everything, along with carrying these buckets and buckets of grace and humility. But, this is the life I've chosen. "GOD OF THUNDAAAAAAAAAAHH!"

I know how it is. Let us celebrate with a feast to our "always being right"dom.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Netkeeper

I can't explain why some people like Twilight. I really cannot. But it doesn't change the fact that behaviours like those lead to sexual assault, because that's what goes through their heads. Like, if you use your brain, you can easily come to the same conclusion.

Sorry, no. What leads to sexual assault is a lack of ethics and regard for other people. Simply having a boner for someone and wanting them to want you does not lead to sexual assault anymore than being poor leads to monetary theft, or being hungry leads to food theft. You really need a lot more to stand on than "use your brain" drivel.

Obsessive behavior that someone doesn't believe a girl is seeing is very different from the sort made right near them; let alone from actual harm. Donatello is not thrusting his pelvis at April and yelling "Schwing," and this show is not condoning such behavior. I'm not defending the writing past a point, but there's absolutely nothing in it that suggests Don thinks assault is okay, or that kids should think it.

Originally Posted by Netkeeper

I can't believe how serious every word of that drivel is. Talking with myself and debating with myself isn't going to make me a better writer! Shoving myself into conversation with people who are unlikely to share my views is! Opposition helps refine your views, and you can learn a lot from hearing an outside perspective. I've learned a LOT during the time I've been posting here. I love it!

While that is potentially true, have, you specifically, actually learned anything? Tell me one time you've actually "refined" your views based on feedback. It seems to me you just keep digging in and repeating them when they're contested.

Originally Posted by Netkeeper

Unfortunately, little do you know my little project already contains approximately 18296 words.

Well, somehow I'm not surprised, but my previous point still stands. If you're not really learning anything from dialectic, why do it?

Originally Posted by Netkeeper

No, it really is not. I don't make charts trying to turn "no's" into "yeses". Do you know how to approach anyone you find attractive? You talk to them like they are any other human being on this Earth. Wow. So difficult. And if you have feelings for that person, you tell them "I think I have romantic feelings for you". Again, this isn't difficult. All you have to do is be up front and honest, which appears to be a concept a lot of people have trouble understanding.

Agree with most of that, but not the romantic feelings part. That shouldn't be in any initial conversations, even if it's true. That sort of honesty runs contrary to treating someone like they are any other person, and makes one sound shallow.

Originally Posted by Netkeeper

I absolutely would have done it better if I wanted to write something like that, but the fact stands that I have no interest in writing a Donatello/April crush, and I have no interest in writing Donatello with a puppy crush at all. I tried it once. It was stupid.

But to humour you, I'd set things up in a way where April is well established before any romantic feelings start showing. It's important to display what each half of a potential couple is like independently, and as friends, before any crushes enter the picture. This mistake was made in episode number one of TMNT 2012: Donatello is already lovestruck and nobody even knows what her name is. That is god awful writing.

Donatello is an intellectual character. Writing him with a crush isn't difficult, but it isn't going to be incredibly obvious, either. His hints need to be subtle, and they need to be given an intellectual, not a physical, basis. Showing April being interested in mathematics or computers, or a teenage girl with an ambition to make good grades, would be a good step in the direction of having him develop a crush that makes sense. He would show admiration for mind, not body. A strong, self-assured girl that has a good wit would be a nice fit for 2k12 Donatello, but I'm also of the opinion that fellow geniuses fit him nicely as well [like 2k3 April].

This is the type of thing that would develop slowly for him, assuming that Donatello is even the first one to start feeling anything to begin with. April's feelings are equally as important, but in order to write the development well, adjustments to her character would also be necessary. She'd have to be given a lot more spotlight. This teen April would have worked wonderfully in centre-stage, main protagonist territory, imo, but it doesn't necessarily have to go that far for it to be relevant to show what April is like and what her life outside the turtles revolves around, because it sure as hell don't revolve around the turtles and it shouldn't. When April is aged down so she is the same age as the turtles, we're missing an opportunity to give her the relateable role, the "average kid that is probably watching the show right now" role.

If it were me, I'd have spent season one displaying the characters independently and working as teams, showing their platonic dynamics with each other, then come season two if any crush was going to develop it'd happen then. And it would be slow and out of focus. Even as the crush grows, it would not be the main focus of either character involved, and it would not be the driving force behind every single interaction the two characters had, because at that point there would be more to them than "one is crushing on the other lmao", there would be an already-existent platonic dynamic that continues to grow.

I will agree with you in that. But just because someone is shallow doesn't mean they're evil. It does not mean they ever will be evil. It's more than anything else part of being a naive teenager. Again, I think you're looking at this in terms of encouraging things, when it started more or less along the lines of empathizing with things. They sought to play up the "Teenage" part, and they did it. I understand they're rewarding this too much, but it's still too broad a stroke to say this encourages assault.

[saintsaucey]

I like Twilight....

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I will grant that in this show, it's a little more understandable given how sheltered and generally immature these TMNT are, but that's another issue I have with this show. I know some people swear that they're "finally acting like teenagers", but I disagree vehemently. Maybe it's a regional thing. Based on people I knew, in the area I live, most teens acted more like the 2K3 TMNT, whereas the Nick Turtles act like they're 12. I mean, I knew a *few* kids Freshman year who were a little like Mikey, but they were on a sh*tload of drugs.

To be fair, I don't know of any teenagers who were as immature as 2003 Mikey, either. Say what you will of this show, but at least it plays his youth as a partial excuse; in 2003 he was truly a manchild.

Originally Posted by Netkeeper

I know how it is. Let us celebrate with a feast to our "always being right"dom.

Methinks this sort of ego stroking is the real reason you come on here. You truly need to get off your high horse if you're going to entertain the notion of dialectic philosophy.

[pennydreadful]

Whatever our viewpoints on the Donnie/April thing, I think it's good that we're discussing it - I mean it at least shows that we're thinking about the entertainment that we're absorbing.

And people on both sides have been putting forward some very concise and well-thought-out arguments, so kudos to you all.

[Netkeeper]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Sorry, no. What leads to sexual assault is a lack of ethics and regard for other people. Simply having a boner for someone and wanting them to want you does not lead to sexual assault anymore than being poor leads to monetary theft, or being hungry leads to food theft. You really need a lot more to stand on than "use your brain" drivel.

Obsessive behavior that someone doesn't believe a girl is seeing is very different from the sort made right near them; let alone from actual harm. Donatello is not thrusting his pelvis at April and yelling "Schwing," and this show is not condoning such behavior. I'm not defending the writing past a point, but there's absolutely nothing in it that suggests Don thinks assault is okay, or that kids should think it.

Donatello not being blatantly inappropriate doesn't mean anything because hardly anybody actually does that. What does happen is they obsess over the matter privately, show a complete disregard for the person's wants and desires, such as Donatello's ****ing chart, and then take action when the opportunity arises.

While we know this is a kid's show and that type of action would NEVER occur, it's important to note that some of his behaviours are still reminiscent of these thought cycles. Just because the show isn't condoning openly committing assault doesn't mean the implications don't exist; the show definitely has its moments of condoning Donnie's weird creepy obsessive behaviour, or at least playing it off as a "harmless joke" often enough. To its credit, not every time does this happen, but enough to make an increasing number of people uncomfortable. It wouldn't get too extreme because we have to hope somebody on the writing staff has more common sense than that.

It isn't "looking too deeply into things" because from my perspective, it is important to make sure you are avoiding unfortunate implications with your writing. Viewers generally want to remain comfortable with your storyline. This isn't a difficult concept to understand.

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

While that is potentially true, have, you specifically, actually learned anything? Tell me one time you've actually "refined" your views based on feedback. It seems to me you just keep digging in and repeating them when they're contested.

Why do I need to tell you what I've learned? Can't you just accept that I said I've learned things by being here? Of course you can't, you want to make me out to be... something. I'm not even sure what. Possibly a liar. It's hilarious, either way, and I don't even have to humour you with a list of everything I've gotten from this place. [I'll just hand you one example: Criticising the immaturity of the 2k12 turtles and being told in response that they're intended to grow INTO the more mature, more tolerable personalities. Which I hope is true.]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Well, somehow I'm not surprised, but my previous point still stands. If you're not really learning anything from dialectic, why do it?

You're absolutely hilarious -- claiming I'm not learning anything directly after I said I'm learning things. Then you say you're not surprised when I tell you I've already written a novella's worth of words when you had doubts I'd been writing anything to begin with. Tell me, did you get good scores on reading comprehension exams?

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Agree with most of that, but not the romantic feelings part. That shouldn't be in any initial conversations, even if it's true. That sort of honesty runs contrary to treating someone like they are any other person, and makes one sound shallow.

Wait, what? I never said anything about initial conversations. You probably don't HAVE romantic feelings for somebody if you've never even had a single conversation with them. How can you? You have no idea what your dynamic with that person actually is. What the hell? Are you just LOOKING for reasons to object to what I have to say, even if I never actually said it at all?

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

I will agree with you in that. But just because someone is shallow doesn't mean they're evil. It does not mean they ever will be evil. It's more than anything else part of being a naive teenager. Again, I think you're looking at this in terms of encouraging things, when it started more or less along the lines of empathizing with things. They sought to play up the "Teenage" part, and they did it. I understand they're rewarding this too much, but it's still too broad a stroke to say this encourages assault.

Yep, you're looking for reasons to object to what I have to say, even if I never actually said it at all! I never said shallow characters are evil! Where did you even pull that from?

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

To be fair, I don't know of any teenagers who were as immature as 2003 Mikey, either. Say what you will of this show, but at least it plays his youth as a partial excuse; in 2003 he was truly a manchild.

That 2k3 Mikey!! Such a manchild, am I right!! So unintelligent, lacking emotional perception, and definitely not a talented fighter! So useless and immature. Definitely not deliberate in his upbeat, joke-loving attitude.

[And that, my friends, is called sarcasm.]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Methinks this sort of ego stroking is the real reason you come on here. You truly need to get off your high horse if you're going to entertain the notion of dialectic philosophy.

Aww, how cute, people are taking me seriously again!

[Klunk1234]

The whole "Apriltello" thing started in the 2k3 series. I also remember that scene in which April tells Donnie " I wish I could kiss you" and he responds: "Really?"

I don't know what would happen in the current series about the Donnie/ April relationship.

[ssjup81]

Originally Posted by pennydreadful

Whatever our viewpoints on the Donnie/April thing, I think it's good that we're discussing it - I mean it at least shows that we're thinking about the entertainment that we're absorbing.

And people on both sides have been putting forward some very concise and well-thought-out arguments, so kudos to you all.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/f73727c10...oc3do1_500.gif

I agree with this and I do find some of the arguments good. You know, actual "debating". I have a problem with those who attack the poster and not the post or comes across as aggressive or have a problem with accepting that people have differing opinions and interpretations of things, so it comes across as slightly immature to me as those types come across as trying their best to be "right" as opposed to just trying to get someone to see his/her point of view on something. For the most part, the majority here haven't done that and have remained pretty civil...although, unfortunately, I did make a "personal" post in this thread which is very unlike me.

That aside, I've finally watched the most recent episode. I was wondering what you all would think of this scenario.... Donnie ending up switching minds with April as opposed to Casey? Personally, I could see him totally freaking out, too scared to do anything.

Oh and when Casey said he could give April a massage with his magic fingers, I was thinking about what Donnie would do in that situation. IMO, I feel he would try to make something that could give her a back massage because I just couldn't see him offering to do something like that himself.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by ssjup81

That aside, I've finally watched the most recent episode. I was wondering what you all would think of this scenario.... Donnie ending up switching minds with April as opposed to Casey? Personally, I could see him totally freaking out, too scared to do anything.

Oh and when Casey said he could give April a massage with his magic fingers, I was thinking about what Donnie would do in that situation. IMO, I feel he would try to make something that could give her a back massage because I just couldn't see him offering to do something like that himself.

If that was to happen I think Donnie would have been happier if he switched minds with Casey not April. Because I can see Raph, Casey, and Mikey making cracks about he was finally in a body that suited him if he did end up in April's body. (Cause Donnie is the most likely member of the Turtles to have the fem-boy title if that was applied to them. That and Raph has called Donnie a girl in Metalhead with his "I know a marching band that needs a majorette." Comment.) I think he'd freak out a bit, but Leo and April would get him to calm down and figure out a way to reverse it.

As for the back massage, no I don't see Donnie personally giving April an actual back massage himself since that might come across as too intimate or suggestive. And yes I do know someone who has been assaulted by someone who was giving them a back massage, not to mention the reports on the news of masseurs taking advantage of female clients, and some massage parlors being used as brothels. Then again I've also been at summer camps where boys and girls have had shoulder massage trains (I.E. Guy sitting behind a girl and giving a shoulder massage, person behind them is giving them a shoulder massage, ect.) with nothing suggestive from it. And I have been in dance classes in high school where the students would give each other back messages occasionally as part of the warm up.

By and large a massage is dependent of the level of trust between the person giving the massage and the person receiving it. When Casey had suggested the massage, he was suggesting that as a friend thing. But he also partially suggested giving April a massage as a way of cozying up to her. Or that's the way I saw it.

With Donnie, he could off a shoulder massage or something at most. But I can see him offering something to help with the sore muscles like a poultice of some sort first before offering the shoulder massage.