US citizens crowdfund the border wall

[IndigoErth]

Some family traditions sound really awkward in that case.

[Andrew NDB]

Democrats pass a bill to fund college for illegal immigrants:

https://neonnettle.com/news/6369-dem...taxpayer-money

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Democrats pass a bill to fund college for illegal immigrants:

https://neonnettle.com/news/6369-dem...taxpayer-money

I honestly don't see why this doesn't get more of an outrage from people.

so, basically, break the law, get a free ride....so long as you vote our way!

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Democrats pass a bill to fund college for illegal immigrants:

https://neonnettle.com/news/6369-dem...taxpayer-money

Wow...... that all I can really say..... the shear stupidity and entitlement they give illegal immigrants is freaking incomparable to grasp....... The money could be used for so many other things and given to people who ACTUALLY deserve it.

They could use it to help out LEGAL IMMIGRANTS first and foremost.... Like seriously this is like a slap to their face and spitting on them and their hard work to legally immigrate into this country.

I would rather see this money used to either A.) Help legal immigrants for schooling or just financially. B.) Put the money into construction. C) Allocate the money to public schools to improve resources or give teachers a better wage. I am sure some districts pay the teachers well enough, but I am sure others are struggling to get by.

Top 3 off the top of my head.

Now Andrew's comment is slightly misleading this is not for all Illegal Immigrants, but specifically (Dreamers). I do feel conflicted about Dreamers, because yes they are here illegally, but they came here has children usually with their parents. But I cannot support this or the Dreamer program or policy at all bc it promotes Human Trafficking .

And that's what it is nothing short or human trafficking. Anytime you bring other humans across the border of another country with you. It is human trafficking.....

I really hope we rework our immigration system sooner rather than later.....

Sorry for the rant....

[Metalwolf]

@Redeemer

I think the Democrats want the bill because it is blatent virtue signalling and will 'pay off' in votes later. I suspect that legal immigrants probably aren't going to feel like they 'owe' a particular party their loyalty, whereas a party that appears to bend over backwards especially for you (illegal immigrants) will be the one you might feel to keep voting for.

I will be honest. I am a Dem, but I have been feeling as of late disgusted by my party's own hypocrisy.

They claim to love the environment, but will willingly encourage unchecked immigration of illegal aliens into a country that consumes more then it's fair share of resources, with the last thing the environment needing is more unauthorized people adopting US consumption habits. Along the way, these people will trash sensitive habitats and poach wildlife, because when you are trying to do something illegally, this doesn't matter to you.

They claim to love the poor and oppressed, yet will 'forget' about the previous group they claimed to champion as soon as a new and shiny minority they can virtue signal over and potentially mine votes from shows up. Blacks, the poor, gays and women in general used to be the cause du jour, now it's illegals.

They love these illegals so much that they treat them as pawns whose loyalty they can buy, rather then as people. They don't try to examine to see if US trade policies might have undermined Mexico's economy enough to cause it to tank, they don't try to work with Mexico to deal with the gangs that can be an issue for both countries, and any other issues that could cause a person to become a potential illegal immigrant and what would matter to them.

I won't vote Republican, but I think Democrats are so hobbled down by being enthralled with shiny new minorities and appearing 'woke' that they are becoming almost useless and brainless, rather then doing stuff that actually would make a difference in people's lives and that could prevent future suffering. They are all pop and no kick, and no longer have much worth to write home about.

[Voltron]

I'm writing this in the hopes that people might turn on their b*llshit detectors instead of going nuts when they read some slanted rag of a website complain about literally anything at all.

They could use it to help out LEGAL IMMIGRANTS first and foremost....

DACA Dreamers aren't illegal immigrants. They have protected status under DACA. That's why they're allowed to stay in the country. Illegal immigrants can't participate in programs like this because THEY'D OUT THEMSELVES AS ILLEGAL AND BE DEPORTED.

And that's what it is nothing short or human trafficking. Anytime you bring other humans across the border of another country with you. It is human trafficking.....

Taking your kid somewhere is not human trafficking. It's not like they're abducting their own children. It's not like their children protest the action because it's against the law. If a mother picks up her infant and crosses a border illegally, the child is just going along for the ride.

I think the Democrats want the bill because it is blatent virtue signalling and will 'pay off' in votes later. I suspect that legal immigrants probably aren't going to feel like they 'owe' a particular party their loyalty, whereas a party that appears to bend over backwards especially for you (illegal immigrants) will be the one you might feel to keep voting for.

Legal immigrants tend to loathe illegal immigrants. They often feel cheated having to spend years going through the naturalization process. And "virtue signaling" suggests that they didn't really WANT to do this, they just did it as a tactical move.

Is it so hard to imagine a government doing something to help the country out?

I will be honest. I am a Dem, but I have been feeling as of late disgusted by my party's own hypocrisy.

So they've already lost votes on it.

They claim to love the environment, but will willingly encourage unchecked immigration of illegal aliens into a country that consumes more then it's fair share of resources, with the last thing the environment needing is more unauthorized people adopting US consumption habits.

1. No one in the government is arguing for open border and unchecked immigration.

2. That's not how the environment works. If anything, it'd be more believable that they HELP the environment, since a lot of migrant workers end up doing hard labor on farms. It's so common that it's become a slur towards latin immigrants.

3. And even that image isn't accurate, since most illegal immigrants live in major cities.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us...mmigrants-live

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...on-in-the-u-s/

Along the way, these people will trash sensitive habitats and poach wildlife, because when you are trying to do something illegally, this doesn't matter to you.

1. Research shows that illegal immigrants are far less likely to commit crimes than the native population. This is because they usually came to the US to work, not go on a crime spree.

2. Even if they did, that wouldn't be applicable to the Dreamers, since they were children when they came.

They love these illegals so much that they treat them as pawns whose loyalty they can buy, rather then as people. They don't try to examine to see if US trade policies might have undermined Mexico's economy enough to cause it to tank, they don't try to work with Mexico to deal with the gangs that can be an issue for both countries, and any other issues that could cause a person to become a potential illegal immigrant and what would matter to them.

It's not the US's job to govern Mexico, or even to interfere in their government. Also, we shouldn't have to take a worse deal in order to strengthen another nation. Again, that's the other nation's job.

Our job is to make the best place we can for ourselves. Currently, we have a small group of lost children who were brought here in their youth and only know life in the United States. They're roots are here.

No path to citizenship lies open to them, and that's the real tragedy. There are people who are eager to become citizens THE LEGAL WAY but can't. Allowing them to be educated not only helps them, but the whole the United States.

We have a choice: we can either help these people become productive members of our society, or we can deny them that opportunity and let them be dead weight.

If you're angry about illegal immigration, everyone is. Welcome to the club. But this isn't the negative aspect of it. It's trying to correct a negative aspect. And if people are going to throw a tantrum over it, then they should come up with a better solution.

Hopefully it'll be better than "round up people in trains and deport them" which, again, will be on the tax payer's dime.

[Mayhem]

Originally Posted by Voltron

DACA Dreamers aren't illegal immigrants. They have protected status under DACA. That's why they're allowed to stay in the country. Illegal immigrants can't participate in programs like this because THEY'D OUT THEMSELVES AS ILLEGAL AND BE DEPORTED.

Indeed. Also see your other quote...

Originally Posted by Voltron

Research shows that illegal immigrants are far less likely to commit crimes than the native population. This is because they usually came to the US to work, not go on a crime spree.

Because likewise, if they were arrested, they'd be found out and deported as well.

Originally Posted by Voltron

Legal immigrants tend to loathe illegal immigrants. They often feel cheated having to spend years going through the naturalization process.

This too, you see it from people here in the UK as well. In fact some of the most anti immigration views come from past immigrants, oddly enough.

[Voltron]

God, I hope you're not being sarcastic. Just once I'd like to point these things out without having someone retort with "Oh, yeah? But what about the DRUGS?" or some other nonsense that completely misses the point of the discussion.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Mayhem

This too, you see it from people here in the UK as well. In fact some of the most anti immigration views come from past immigrants, oddly enough.

maybe if they came here legally, and worked hard to earn the UK or American dream, they know that coming here illegally is unfair?

just a guess.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

maybe if they came here legally, and worked hard to earn the UK or American dream, they know that coming here illegally is unfair?

just a guess.

Again, people who come here illegally are not entitled to the same rights and benefits as citizens are. The only thing illegal immigrants get are what's given to them by employers willing to hire them. Which is why supporting American workers is very important, and why socialist candidates are becoming so popular.

Jeez, it's almost like refusal to reign in ultra-billionaires creates some sort of proletariat uprising. . .

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Voltron

DACA Dreamers aren't illegal immigrants. They have protected status under DACA. That's why they're allowed to stay in the country. Illegal immigrants can't participate in programs like this because THEY'D OUT THEMSELVES AS ILLEGAL AND BE DEPORTED.

That's not true at all. If you're applying for DACA status you're already in the country and ARE an illegal immigrant... and you literally ARE outing yourselves as illegal when you apply. I know two ladies that applied for it so far, one was granted and one was denied it (and they ask for a lot of proof, namely proof that you have been here since you were a kid and not, say, last week).

Which is the irony of Obama. Sneaky, sneaky... how nice that there's a list of where all the illegal immigrants are and DACA's future is far from guaranteed. The democrats sure aren't fighting for it.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Voltron

I'm writing this in the hopes that people might turn on their b*llshit detectors instead of going nuts when they read some slanted rag of a website complain about literally anything at all.



DACA Dreamers aren't illegal immigrants. They have protected status under DACA. That's why they're allowed to stay in the country. Illegal immigrants can't participate in programs like this because THEY'D OUT THEMSELVES AS ILLEGAL AND BE DEPORTED.



Taking your kid somewhere is not human trafficking. It's not like they're abducting their own children. It's not like their children protest the action because it's against the law. If a mother picks up her infant and crosses a border illegally, the child is just going along for the ride.




Legal immigrants tend to loathe illegal immigrants. They often feel cheated having to spend years going through the naturalization process. And "virtue signaling" suggests that they didn't really WANT to do this, they just did it as a tactical move.

Sorry, I poorly worded this, lol actually I incorrectly worded it. but I define illegal immigrants as anyone who came here illegally. Dreamers by definition were illegal immigrants, bc they came over here ILLEGALLY. But by law they are now legal immigrants. This is my personal grouping. Essentially I see dreamers as Illegals even if they are here legally now.

also anytime you are brought over by Coyotes you are being trafficked. I never said or claimed parents trafficked their children. Please stop skewing my words. also may shock you but parents can be arrested for trafficking their children.

Also please stop saying illegal immigrants don't commit crimes bc they do..... they all do ounce you step into this country illegally you have committed a crime. When you work and choose not to pay taxes you are committing a crime. Driving without a license or insurance for a vehicle is a crime. Now to you this may seem trivial, but they have grave consequences for citizens of the country. Now I do believe illegal immigrants committing violent crime is overblown, but I don't have any statistics in front of me.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Redeemer

Dreamers by definition were illegal immigrants, bc they came over here ILLEGALLY. But by law they are now legal immigrants.

No, they're absolutely not. Dreamers -- which are absolutely still illegal immigrants -- have to apply for DACA status and they can be approved or flat out denied. Many are denied because they can't prove how long they've been here and since what age. Also, it costs them a lot of money to apply, regardless of if they're approved or not.

[Mayhem]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

maybe if they came here legally, and worked hard to earn the UK or American dream, they know that coming here illegally is unfair?

Actually in this case, I mean any immigrants, legal or illegal. It’s rather bizarre.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

No, they're absolutely not. Dreamers -- which are absolutely still illegal immigrants -- have to apply for DACA status and they can be approved or flat out denied. Many are denied because they can't prove how long they've been here and since what age. Also, it costs them a lot of money to apply, regardless of if they're approved or not.

Actually, they absolutely are because you can only be a "Dreamer" if you're accepted and then protected by DACA. So they would be here legally, since that's how that works.

And good point about Obama. He figured out how to catch those illegals AND he made them do it without us having to spend billions on a stupid wall that won't work.

Originally Posted by Every Conservative

Fool! Now all you're precious little illegal immigrants will be deported!

Good! They're illegal immigrants. They shouldn't be here!

Originally Posted by Every Conservative

What sorcery be this? How can one wish to deport illegals while not swearing fealty to our Lord Trumpus Christ?

Because, again, no one ever argued for allowing open borders or for every illegal immigrant to magically become legal.

Originally Posted by Redeemer

also anytime you are brought over by Coyotes you are being trafficked. I never said or claimed parents trafficked their children.

No, you aren't. There's a difference between the two.

https://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/fs/2017/272005.htm

Originally Posted by Redeemer

Please stop skewing my words.

Please start reading things.

Originally Posted by Redeemer

also may shock you but parents can be arrested for trafficking their children

No sh*t?! It may also shock you that there're TWO shift keys on your key board. It may also shock you that ellipsis only have three periods. It may also shock you that, despite what everyone here thinks, I'm not some misinformed dumb ass, so please stop laughing like you one upped me.

Originally Posted by Redeemer

Also please stop saying illegal immigrants don't commit crimes bc they do.....

I never said that. I said they were less likely. Please stop skewering my words.

Let me be clear: where violent crimes are concerned, the illegal population is, statistically less likely to be involved. Everyone knows they've already broken a law. "Illegal" is right in the title.

The point I want to drive home is: if we're going to argue that these people pose a serious physical threat, it doesn't hold up. There's way better arguments to be made against illegal immigration.

Another point (which isn't directed at anyone in particular): listening to shock jocks, reading hyper-partisan news, and using Facebook minion memes to enter into a political discussion helps no one. I know the "lame stream media" is demonized anymore, but that doesn't mean we should all be getting our news from huffpo or the Daily Mail.

[Redeemer]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Actually, they absolutely are because you can only be a "Dreamer" if you're accepted and then protected by DACA. So they would be here legally, since that's how that works.

And good point about Obama. He figured out how to catch those illegals AND he made them do it without us having to spend billions on a stupid wall that won't work.



Good! They're illegal immigrants. They shouldn't be here!



Because, again, no one ever argued for allowing open borders or for every illegal immigrant to magically become legal.



No, you aren't. There's a difference between the two.

https://www.state.gov/j/tip/rls/fs/2017/272005.htm



Please start reading things.



No sh*t?! It may also shock you that there're TWO shift keys on your key board. It may also shock you that ellipsis only have three periods. It may also shock you that, despite what everyone here thinks, I'm not some misinformed dumb ass, so please stop laughing like you one upped me.




I never said that. I said they were less likely. Please stop skewering my words.

Let me be clear: where violent crimes are concerned, the illegal population is, statistically less likely to be involved. Everyone knows they've already broken a law. "Illegal" is right in the title.

The point I want to drive home is: if we're going to argue that these people pose a serious physical threat, it doesn't hold up. There's way better arguments to be made against illegal immigration.

Another point (which isn't directed at anyone in particular): listening to shock jocks, reading hyper-partisan news, and using Facebook minion memes to enter into a political discussion helps no one. I know the "lame stream media" is demonized anymore, but that doesn't mean we should all be getting our news from huffpo or the Daily Mail.

Voltron I apologize. I am not trying to laugh at you like a "one upped" or anything along those lines. I using laughing emojis/ faces to try to break the tension of heated or sensitive conversation to try to keep it light hearted. I am literally the last person who should act superior to anyone else knowing how wrong I am at times.

I also apologize if my text seems to insult you in anyway. Text lack tone, therefore lacks intent and can easily be read differently than it was intended.

[Voltron]

Sorry, man. I get waaay too invested in debates. It's a terrible hobby to have, and I really gotta munch some xanax or something.

As far as being wrong goes, I'm in the wrong more often than not, too. Thanks for giving some push back on my condescending assery.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Actually, they absolutely are because you can only be a "Dreamer" if you're accepted and then protected by DACA. So they would be here legally, since that's how that works.

That's not true. A "Dreamer" is any illegal immigrant who was brought here at an early age (and though a ton of people seem confused about this, "Dreamer" has nothing to do with the DREAM Act... that act failed and doesn't exist, never did). A good percentage of those Dreamers are then eligible to at least apply for DACA if they have the money... at which point if they're accepted, they are temporarily legal until it's time to renew their DACA status, at which time they're on the chopping block again. But a Dreamer without DACA status is 100% an illegal immigrant.

And let's not lose sight of what DACA is. DACA was introduced as a temporary measure, a presidential note, to protect eligible Dreamers from deportation until an actual large-scale immigration solution could be reached. One wasn't, and the democrats aren't even fighting for DACA itself anymore.

[Voltron]

Again, I'm not confusing illegal immigrants with people who are currently protected under a federal order.

They exist in a legal limbo until this day because the current administration doesn't do anything at all about anything at all.

The DACA provisions were upheld on a national level by a federal judge, so any who had protection under DACA are still protected.

We're talking about an exceedingly small portion of the population when discussing DACA recipients. Constantly reminding people that some who apply aren't accepted doesn't change the fact that some are, making the article in question part of the Trump Derangement Syndrome that people love to talk about.

As Trump famously said, "we are a nation of laws". And as triggered and psychotic as wing nuts get over immigration, the rule stands that these people are legally allowed to remain in the country. Any and all complaining is just that and nothing more.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Voltron

Again, I'm not confusing illegal immigrants with people who are currently protected under a federal order.

Yes, you are. You're confusing it left and right.

First you said "Illegal immigrants can't participate in programs like this because THEY'D OUT THEMSELVES AS ILLEGAL AND BE DEPORTED." That's untrue. They are illegal immigrants all the way from the moment they apply for DACA until the moment if and when their application is approved. That they were brought here at a young age and thus have the nickname of "Dreamer" doesn't make them any less illegal. There is nothing that says someone applying for DACA and say, gets rejected, won't get a visit from ICE the very next week. It doesn't happen, of course, but it can.

Then you said "you can only be a 'Dreamer' if you're accepted and then protected by DACA." That's completely untrue. Again, you are a "Dreamer" simply by the virtue of being brought here at a youngish age... that is not a legal term. If anything, you could say, "You can only get DACA if you're a 'Dreamer.'" That is true, not the opposite.

They exist in a legal limbo until this day because the current administration doesn't do anything at all about anything at all.

If we agree that neither side is doing anything about it, then we're in agreement.

The DACA provisions were upheld on a national level by a federal judge, so any who had protection under DACA are still protected.

Correct. For now. Though no one on either side is expecting DACA to be a permanent thing. It will either expire or it will be replaced with something of more permanence.

As Trump famously said, "we are a nation of laws". And as triggered and psychotic as wing nuts get over immigration, the rule stands that these people are legally allowed to remain in the country. Any and all complaining is just that and nothing more.

Nobody is complaining about people who have DACA status. I'm complaining that you're misusing and misrepresenting very, very basic immigration language and law.