TMNT 2 Starts Filming in April in NYC!

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

I don't agree with you 100%. I think it's more accurate to say that the most public aspects of the Ninja Turtles have been the sillified juvenile series: Next Mutation, the movies, and the Fred Wolf cartoon. All of the comic series (Mirage, Image, IDW, even Adventures) were serious and aimed at adults as much as teens. And those are the ones people never know about, in my experience.

The Fred Wolf cartoon is a huge double-edged sword. Without it, I don't think TMNT would ever have seen life as more than Mirage Volume 1. Fred Wolf popularized it and marketed the HELL out of it. But it did so at the cost of TMNT's credibility and appeal to mature audiences. And so we are forever damned by "Cowabunga" and pizza. Bittersweet.

I'm fully aware man, but thanks for that history lesson? lol...

What i was saying, is that, in my opinion, FW (after the first 6 eps that is, i still find those watchable, to an extent) was bad, but even 2003 was, kiddified.

That's blasphemy to some. I don't care. It wasn't really Mirage, as evidenced in the end of Turtles Forever, though many would argue it's the best incarnation. I disagree. The 2003 versions look like pussy's in the end.

Yes there are quite a few good Mirage stories, but there are also stupid mirage stories. I hate the art from the Archie series, it's just obnoxious, BUT there were some good in there.

I think it can be done better, periode. The best is yet to come, in my opinion, but it needs the right people to care, and understand what the movie should be.

It's not about an incompetent Girl and her friends down the drain. It's not about Orange Crush. It's not about New York mountains, or singular set pieces of boring. The list is a mile long.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

lol. I mean, as brief as it is, Trick has a point.

I share his anger, obviously. I was on Bay's side in the beginning. I still stand behind my claim that BAY can make incredible action films. He can.

But he didn't "make" this film. This is all on Fuller and Liebseman, not wanting to so much make a film, but rather, a product. He stepped in, and tried to fix it, and it still sucked, mainly, because he was on TF4, not giving his full attention to this little remake they were doing, but also because he's not a fan, and I can't blame him. He didn't go after the rights, FULLER did. FULLER asked to involve him. FULLER HAS SAID SO. But they didn't understand what they were supposed to make. They didn't get it, anyone arguing otherwise doesn't get it either. And that is impossibly frustrating.

I feel like other comicbooks are getting their due, while we are getting the scraps. I really do. And I also feel, that the only way to get them to pay attention, is to be as loud as I can, online. What other recourse is there? I can't accept this as the best we're going to get, and i can't accept that better isn't possible. There is a market for quality entertainment, don't kid yourself.

If i'm being absolutely honest, there have only been a handfull of moments in the entire history of TMNT's existence where the brand has actually been great. that's the truth, no matter how you slice it. More often than not, it's been sillified, and made for children. an ingenious idea has been trounced and trolliped, tarted and tainted for decades, because we we're all indoctrinated into as children.

We'll they sowed the oats in our youth, it's time to pay up folks.

The closest thing in recent memory of anything that brought out the kid in me, was Nicks hour long special back in the Summer. I actually thoroughly enjoyed that. I also really really enjoyed the Mirage segment in Turtles Forever. It was so fitting, to end the 4kids days with "oh, you want to see what the real turtles were like? Check this out".

Boom. It was amazing. It was meta. It was perfect.

That's the movie we deserved, as fans. We SHOULD be united, not arguing one another . We SHOULD be demanding better. We SHOULD be heard.

Originally Posted by Leo656

I hate it when my buddies can't get along. This Movie Ruins Everything.

Duckie: Well, from the other side, I thought that "Everything Wrong With" video could easily have been twice as long and that they left out a TON of things that could have been mentioned. I didn't find ANY of the "humor" funny in the least. The acting was terrible. The dialog delivery was painful. Logical inconsistencies and continuity problems galore. I could go on... and on... and on... I mean, for me, someone who cares as much about How movies are made, just the fact this thing was made with Zero care, by people who HAD zero care, is enough for me to paint it black.

Honestly... ((Deep Breath))... This is as nicely as I can say it: I honestly think someone can ONLY like this movie, if they made up their mind way, WAY before it ever existed that they were going to like it. It. Is. BAD. "It's TMNT" is literally the only "good" thing anyone could ever possibly say about it. Even they WAY they made it - taking one "Big" scene from an early draft and building every single script around it, completely making up the rest of the story on the fly AS they were making it, etc. - is textbook Bad Filmmaking. Even "nitpicky" stuff like "It's sunny, it's pouring rain, it's sunny again and everything's bone-dry"... that's bad. You're Not Supposed To Do That. It's a badly-made film. It is a film that was made badly. People can't just say that's not true. It's entirely true and it's not merely Opinions.

And to me, the example I gave IS fitting, because this is a smaller scale, but at the same time it IS a debate about a mindset, an ethos, that being whether or not people should tolerate/celebrate movies that are Openly Bad On Purpose, because "they're just movies so whatevs, no bigs", or if people, especially fans, deserve something more substantial. My argument? No, you NEVER make a bad movie on purpose, and as a fan, you damn sure don't eat it with a smile, you throw it back in their face and demand they do better next time. Others disagree and are more casual about it. Fair enough. But since they seemingly care so little about the quality of their entertainment, or whether or not any kind of thought or effort goes into it, it begs the question why they like Anything. I mean, is it like kittens with string? "I just like it, and I don't know why, I just do?"

You both make some good points, I'll say that up front. But I feel like TMNT as a whole is much broader than any one incarnation, has more to offer, and can be enjoyed by anyone. Kiddified or not, any version can appeal to more than just kids- but people tend to treat it as if the versions for kids are inferior for that reason alone. They're not. They just appeal to us on a more basic level. We grew up in a time when kids were largely ignored save as a source of money for toy-sales. Yeah, I'll say it- kids in our time were basically invisible when they weren't being hawked to. Kids now are practically worshiped- that's a HUGE change in the last 30 years. So we get what is "fitting" for the time.

And as long as parents continue to coddle their kids, that's exactly what it's going to be for EVERYTHING. Not the fault of the movies or media, it's more the fault of parents themselves and how they put their kids onto a pedestal and try to keep them from being harmed even by proxy. Sad, but true. So this movie being a "product" from producers who just want to make a buck off kids is a simple by-product of what the parents themselves are doing- kiddifying EVERYTHING just so their kids will be "safe" and "happy", without having to experience anything dark or sad or violent. We're living in the "perfect" time for kids, but pretty much mind-numbingly dumbed down for everyone else- and the sad part is, we did it to ourselves as a society.

Leo- truth be told, I went into that film with very low expectations, after all the horrible leaked info that came out- and came OUT of the movie feeling relieved that it wasn't as bad as I had feared. (YMMV, of course.) I was on the fence for a LONG time, and it wasn't until the trailers that actually SHOWED the turtles that I was actually beginning to be optimistic. After over a year of cringe-worthy "news" and the leaked script and all the other nonsense, I'm kind of glad it wasn't as bad as what I was led to believe from all that. But I kept an open mind about it. And was mildly surprised.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

I'm fully aware man, but thanks for that history lesson? lol...

What i was saying, is that, in my opinion, FW (after the first 6 eps that is, i still find those watchable, to an extent) was bad, but even 2003 was, kiddified.

That's blasphemy to some. I don't care. It wasn't really Mirage, as evidenced in the end of Turtles Forever, though many would argue it's the best incarnation. I disagree. The 2003 versions look like pussy's in the end.

Yes there are quite a few good Mirage stories, but there are also stupid mirage stories. I hate the art from the Archie series, it's just obnoxious, BUT there were some good in there.

I think it can be done better, periode. The best is yet to come, in my opinion, but it needs the right people to care, and understand what the movie should be.

It's not about an incompetent Girl and her friends down the drain. It's not about Orange Crush. It's not about New York mountains, or singular set pieces of boring. The list is a mile long.

New York mountains made me laugh.

But yes. Exactly. The Turtles deserve better than lowest common denominator bullsh*t.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

If you can't, then why haven't you put me on ignore yet?

I mean, I know why, but I doubt you do.

For a simple reason- I never put ANYONE on ignore, no matter how much I disagree with them. I'd rather see an opposing opinion so I can judge its merits, than simply pretend it doesn't exist. You?

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

For a simple reason- I never put ANYONE on ignore, no matter how much I disagree with them. I'd rather see an opposing opinion so I can judge its merits, than simply pretend it doesn't exist. You?

Fantastic. Now I know everything you ever need to tell me. You never have to tell me ever ever again.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

So you know I like to keep an open mind? Great! Now we can move onto other things.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by TigerClaw

The thing is, How do they know the Mutagen has magical healing powers, When they tested on the Turtles, We saw what resulted, Eric Sacks was surprised by the result of the mutagen, So with that knowledge, He can create a army of Super Soldiers for the Foot Clan.

Well it's purpose was to cure a specific disease.

Maybe it's my fuzzy memory but wasn't he trying to recreate a cure that could repair bodies on a cellular level. The turtles seem to be the under the impression it could heal Splinter of his injuries and did not to mention we could probably chalk off their ability to instantly heal after flexing out bullets to it too.

Of course as someone said it seems it has to injected for it to work or maybe a tiny bit leaking through metal could cure Shredder of his injuries but conveniently not his scars.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

So you know I like to keep an open mind? Great! Now we can move onto other things.

About bad movies and bad filmmakers?

That's certainly your prerogative yes.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

That too. Mostly about OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS. I'm kind of funny that way. Something my mother taught me. It stuck.

[Leo656]

42: I disgaree vehemently. So long as Nick owns it, and TMNT exists only as a corporate entity... we're past the Best Parts. It's over. Things went from Punk Rock to Stadium Rock. There's no going back once that happens. Just a sad, steady decline and a lot of "Remember When?" The best is not, indeed, yet to come. Everyone can argue about what "The Best" was, but I'm almost positive that we've seen it. At best, everything from now on will just be remixed and half-assed versions of what they've already done before, and at worst, Nick will just stick it on a shelf for a decade-plus once they get bored with it, because that's what they do.

Duckie: I disagree with that as well. "This is made for kids" is code for "This is trash and we know it, but they won't, because kids are stupid." Now, *I* personally have no problem saying that kids are stupid. Everybody should know that kids are basically just half-baked not-yet-people whose brains are still mostly mush. But I don't like the idea of paying someone to prove that and enabling them to spend the GDP of several small countries every year making sh*t movies under the battle cry of "Kids Know Dick." Then we ALL suffer.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

That too. Mostly about OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS. I'm kind of funny that way. Something my mother taught me. It stuck.

I've literally said over and over again that I don't give a flying f*ck if you like the movie or not. I do not care.

Not going to stop me from calling it a sh*t movie when I feel like it. If you can't handle that, I don't care.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

People tend to treat it as if the versions for kids are inferior for that reason alone. They're not. They just appeal to us on a more basic level. We grew up in a time when kids were largely ignored save as a source of money for toy-sales. Yeah, I'll say it- kids in our time were basically invisible when they weren't being hawked to. Kids now are practically worshiped- that's a HUGE change in the last 30 years. So we get what is "fitting" for the time.

And as long as parents continue to coddle their kids, that's exactly what it's going to be for EVERYTHING. Not the fault of the movies or media, it's more the fault of parents themselves

Honestly, I would strongly argue, that PDMT isn't for them. It is for us. Let's be real about who they were marketing to. The nostalgia crowd, who will bring their kids, and Millenials, who like to get high before watching things, and just turn of their brain.

My friends kid is 6. He asked me which film he should go and see with his son, GOTG or PDMT. You know what? I said neither. GOTGreally wasn't a kids film, and Neither was TMNT. But GOTG had heart, PDMT didn't even have that.

I didn't dissuade him because I disliked PDMT. I did so because, it just wasn't a kids film. Happy Feet, is a kids film. TMNT II is a kids film. I can't in good conscience suggest a 6 year old watch either film that have jokes about masturbation, or clear sexual overtones. I also don't think an abundance of violence is fun for the parents after the fact, when lil' Johnny is beating the crap out of his sister cause he's all wound up.

9, 10, 11, fine. Their on the edge of their teens, and well, we have the Internet. It's hard to even define them as kids still at that age in our world. But a 6 year old kid? not so much.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Galactus

Maybe it's my fuzzy memory but wasn't he trying to recreate a cure that could repair bodies on a cellular level.

In my first fanfic I ever wrote back around 2000 I made it a specific point to mention that the mutagen in my interpretation had the ability to heal injuries and cure/prevent disease. These f*ckers owe me money. I mean, more than they would have if I'd actually paid to see the F'n thing.

And yeah it's definitely not a "kids" movie. It's juvenile, but that's different. They tried to have their cake and eat it too by saying, "Well, it's for kids!" once they realized most fans over a certain age were going to rip it apart. They definitely didn't design it as a Movie For Kids.

[Commenter 42]

Originally Posted by Leo656

42: I disgaree vehemently. So long as Nick owns it, and TMNT exists only as a corporate entity... we're past the Best Parts. It's over. Things went from Punk Rock to Stadium Rock. There's no going back once that happens. Just a sad, steady decline and a lot of "Remember When?" The best is not, indeed, yet to come. Everyone can argue about what "The Best" was, but I'm almost positive that we've seen it. At best, everything from now on will just be remixed and half-assed versions of what they've already done before, and at worst, Nick will just stick it on a shelf for a decade-plus once they get bored with it, because that's what they do.

See, I hear that. I really feel like you could be right. It looks bleak.
I still hold hope. but you can call me crazy. I feel like I must be.

^ There you go my enemies, there's a quote you can take out of context and play with. Have fun! A late xmas present for you all.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Leo656, do you read the IDW comics at all? I personally feel like it is the best iteration of the TMNT yet (my gripes with some of the artwork aside), even better slightly than the Mirage/Image series taken as a whole. Just curious.

I can't fault you for your opinion, though. The Nicktoon and the 2014 movie present depressing evidence to support your "it's-all-downhill-from-here" viewpoint.

Originally Posted by Leo656

42: I disgaree vehemently. So long as Nick owns it, and TMNT exists only as a corporate entity... we're past the Best Parts. It's over. Things went from Punk Rock to Stadium Rock. There's no going back once that happens. Just a sad, steady decline and a lot of "Remember When?" The best is not, indeed, yet to come. Everyone can argue about what "The Best" was, but I'm almost positive that we've seen it. At best, everything from now on will just be remixed and half-assed versions of what they've already done before, and at worst, Nick will just stick it on a shelf for a decade-plus once they get bored with it, because that's what they do.

[Leo656]

I've got like, the first five or six issues and I liked a lot of it and didn't like some of the rest of it. I have to say I haven't seen enough to have a Real Opinion of it. Keeping up now and then with a little of what's been going on, there's stuff I Really Like that sounds interesting, and stuff that sounds Really Bad. On the whole I have heard it's the "best" version of TMNT going right now but I haven't seen it for myself. If I could afford comics right now, TMNT wouldn't be the top of my pull list (other than the Ghostbusters crossover, and I'm completely biased in that regard). I can't afford any comics, period, but those were some of the last ones I did pick up. I did read enough to know it's not my "favorite" version, though.

Regardless of how good the IDW series is, it really doesn't matter, because Nobody Reads Comics and those versions aren't the "real" versions of the characters/mythology in the public's eye. And the current "real" versions - the movie and the Nick show - both have a TON of things wrong with them, like, to the level that I wouldn't be quick to "out" myself in public as a TMNT fan right now.

There's a lot of public awareness of the brand right now, but... a lot of it is Negative. A lot of it is, "Yes, TMNT endures... as a Simple Lark for Simple People." There's a lot of people mocking the fans in a slightly passive-aggressive way, even simply by saying, "C'mon, it's TMNT, it's cheesy/stupid, what does anyone expect?" It's still negative, it's still mocking. The movie reinforces a lot of that kind of thing. Yet, it's as good a movie as we could have, should have, or should ever expect to see given the current status of the property. They kind of "can't" do any better. I get that. I just completely hate it.

Like 42 said, other comics have been granted their "Cred" by Hollywood and The System. We're stuck forever in this, "Aww, you like TMNT? That's cute, you're an adorable little man-child, aren't you?" type of quagmire. And some people want it that way. Some "fans" are okay with that. I'm not okay with that. I just... don't honestly think anything can be done to fix it, anymore.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Leo656

42: I disgaree vehemently. So long as Nick owns it, and TMNT exists only as a corporate entity... we're past the Best Parts. It's over. Things went from Punk Rock to Stadium Rock. There's no going back once that happens. Just a sad, steady decline and a lot of "Remember When?" The best is not, indeed, yet to come. Everyone can argue about what "The Best" was, but I'm almost positive that we've seen it. At best, everything from now on will just be remixed and half-assed versions of what they've already done before, and at worst, Nick will just stick it on a shelf for a decade-plus once they get bored with it, because that's what they do.

Duckie: I disagree with that as well. "This is made for kids" is code for "This is trash and we know it, but they won't, because kids are stupid." Now, *I* personally have no problem saying that kids are stupid. Everybody should know that kids are basically just half-baked not-yet-people whose brains are still mostly mush. But I don't like the idea of paying someone to prove that and enabling them to spend the GDP of several small countries every year making sh*t movies under the battle cry of "Kids Know Dick." Then we ALL suffer.

I wasn't saying specifically that it was MADE for kids, but that it was "kiddified". Like everything else in nostalgic cartoon franchises these days. And it's true- everything has to be marketable to kids, lest they feel left out. An occasional fart joke or what-not aside, the rest of the movie- along with pretty much every other kids' franchise film- is geared toward the lowest age demographic possible given the rating. IE- they probably only made it PG-13 BECAUSE of those minor jokes, when they should have just tried harder to make it for older audiences in the first place. Most of that stuff besides the fart joke went right over kids' heads anyway. And yeah, most kids these days ARE pretty dumb- I've seen ample proof of it working in fast-food, where parents take kids all the time. It's shocking how little sense some of the tykes have.

Originally Posted by Commenter 42

Honestly, I would strongly argue, that PDMT isn't for them. It is for us. Let's be real about who they were marketing to. The nostalgia crowd, who will bring their kids, and Millenials, who like to get high before watching things, and just turn of their brain.

My friends kid is 6. He asked me which film he should go and see with his son, GOTG or PDMT. You know what? I said neither. GOTGreally wasn't a kids film, and Neither was TMNT. But GOTG had heart, PDMT didn't even have that.

I didn't dissuade him because I disliked PDMT. I did so because, it just wasn't a kids film. Happy Feet, is a kids film. TMNT II is a kids film. I can't in good conscience suggest a 6 year old watch either film that have jokes about masturbation, or clear sexual overtones. I also don't think an abundance of violence is fun for the parents after the fact, when lil' Johnny is beating the crap out of his sister cause he's all wound up.

9, 10, 11, fine. Their on the edge of their teens, and well, we have the Internet. It's hard to even define them as kids still at that age in our world. But a 6 year old kid? not so much.

Oh, I agree, actually. By no means was it meant for LITTLE kids. 9-13, maybe, but certainly not 6. I was referring to the whole concept of kiddifying movies and other media (read- dumbing it down or basically doing it half-a$$ed or just not stepping back for a "is this actually "GOOD" moment after making it) when it comes to film-making and entertainment in general. This is what the world has come to, unfortunately. And given the way kids today are coddled, it's probably not going to end any time soon.

Originally Posted by Leo656

In my first fanfic I ever wrote back around 2000 I made it a specific point to mention that the mutagen in my interpretation had the ability to heal injuries and cure/prevent disease. These f*ckers owe me money. I mean, more than they would have if I'd actually paid to see the F'n thing.

And yeah it's definitely not a "kids" movie. It's juvenile, but that's different. They tried to have their cake and eat it too by saying, "Well, it's for kids!" once they realized most fans over a certain age were going to rip it apart. They definitely didn't design it as a Movie For Kids.

I'd say it was for tweens and above, if anything- which is funny because the tweens are the age LEAST likely to still be interested in TMNT, as it's not "cool" enough anymore at that age. Juvenile, yes- definitely at times. Some parts more than others, but certainly geared toward an age where that sort of thing is still amusing to a kid. (And yeah, even I like the occasional low-brow humor, sometimes. Just not ALL the time. Then it just gets old.)

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Leo656, do you read the IDW comics at all? I personally feel like it is the best iteration of the TMNT yet (my gripes with some of the artwork aside), even better slightly than the Mirage/Image series taken as a whole. Just curious.

I can't fault you for your opinion, though. The Nicktoon and the 2014 movie present depressing evidence to support your "it's-all-downhill-from-here" viewpoint.

Hells, YES! IDW has been amazing, and incorporates all the BEST of things like the OT series, while still managing to be reasonably mature. I love the tight story-telling, the character development, and the designs in it. BEST TMNT EVER.

Originally Posted by TrickOrTreater

I've literally said over and over again that I don't give a flying f*ck if you like the movie or not. I do not care.

Not going to stop me from calling it a sh*t movie when I feel like it. If you can't handle that, I don't care.

And I don't care that YOU don't care if I like it. It means absolutely nothing to me. Actually, I don't even care if you like it or not. So I guess that makes us even. What I do care about is treating other people's opinions with RESPECT. I'll say it again. RESPECT. It's how people are supposed to treat others, even those they disagree with.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

What I do care about is treating other people's opinions with RESPECT.

...no one has to respect somebody else's opinions if they don't want to. That's not how it works. I can respect your right to HAVE an opinion, but I definitely do not have to respect the opinion itself.

That's just silly. Because opinions can be wrong.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

And therein lies your problem. Not respecting a person's opinions is the same as saying you don't respect THEM. Since it comes FROM them. It's about treating a person as an equal, and not belittling something they believe in or think, just because you disagree. THAT is respect. A person IS their ideas/opinions/etc. That's what makes them an individual- if you don't respect what makes them a person, then you do NOT respect the person. THAT IS how it works. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

[TrickOrTreater]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

And therein lies your problem. Not respecting a person's opinions is the same as saying you don't respect THEM. Since it comes FROM them. It's about treating a person as an equal, and not belittling something they believe in or think, just because you disagree. THAT is respect. A person IS their ideas/opinions/etc. That's what makes them an individual- if you don't respect what makes them a person, then you do NOT respect the person. THAT IS how it works. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

What a naive black and white little world you live in.

Next time I come across somebody whose sincere opinion is that gay people shouldn't be allowed to get married to each other, I'll just say "I totally respect that opinion!"

Good job.