Henry Cavill again out as DCEU's Superman (formerly "exits" then "returns")

[ZariusTwo]

Meanwhile, it was announced Zack Snyder would be voicing himself in Teen Titans Go

There's your scraps for the day.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by IMJ

Wow I was really hoping the rumor was true and we were getting MOS 2....

I'm looking a the schedule for Hall H. Nope, nothing left that could remotely be an opportunity for Cavill to pop in. Or tomorrow, but that's not surprising because nothing happens on Sundays.

Well, there's always those two black Superman projects coming, one by that super racist guy.

[Leo656]

Tsk tsk. People still haven't learned that "hope" is for movies and comic books, not Real Life.

You people still look forward to things. That's precious.

[Vegita-San]

why? MOS sucked.

[Leo656]

You spelled "Best Superman movie that has or will ever be made" wrong, son.

[Vegita-San]

reeves 1 and 2? agree!

[Andrew NDB]

The only good thing in the Reeves movies is Reeves. That's not enough.

Only bad things in MoS was the way Pa Kent went out and the stupid lesson there and Superman being a little aloof in the destruction of Metropolis. That's it. The rest was gold.

[Vegita-San]

you kids are nuts. .

What did we get in MOS? A Fortress that hardly got used. no Purpose. Music that starts but never goes anywhere into a theme. a Pa Kent that was a horrible adoptive father, basically just saying to his son, look out for himself. a Superman that really had no reason to save earthlings or want to be among them for that matter. A hero that causes collateral damage willingly to stop the bad guy. including potential lives.

yeah. Not my superman

[Leo656]

Superman II is f*cking dog sh*t. Terence Stamp barely holds it together but even with him in it, it's pretty f*cking unbearable.

The first Reeve movie is "oh-kay" but it only really works if you first see it around age 5. WAY too dated by now, everyone I've ever shown it to as an adult who never saw it before thinks it's just plain dumb. If you don't already like Superman it's not gonna make a mark. It gets more Right than Wrong but it's way too cheesy to hold any weight with anyone who's not a child or already a fan of the character.

MoS actually turned a ton of people who thought Superman was dumb into Superman fans by making him a relatable character with human emotions, something the Reeve movies never bothered to do. He's just Santa Claus With A Cape in those movies. You get a few glimpses of actual depth in them but they immediately walk it back every time.

And that ending to the first movie was always f*cking terrible.

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

yeah. Not my superman

So go watch cartoons. Movies are for grown-ups.

MoS is the Byrne/Jurgens Superman in live action, no more and no less. Go read those books again and we can revisit this conversation.

[Andrew NDB]

I've said it before but I still mourn what could have been had WB approached things differently. If they'd soldiered on with Green Lantern 2 (learning from their mistakes, of course), made TDKR differently so as to dovetail into a DCEU, Wonder Woman proceeded as planned... what an amazing shared universe that would have been. BvS with Bale and Cavill, man, that'd have been awesome. And Justice League would've felt fully justified and not cart before the horse. Ryan Reynolds' Hal instead of Cryborg.

[Vegita-San]

LMG, The only way they think they can make superman cool is by constantly showing covers with glowing red eyes ? Anyone who does that doesn't understand superman.

Your vaunted cartoons got him right. At the End Of Justice League, Superman goes all out against darkseid. he says how he constantly holds back. constantly afraid he's going to go too far. that he might hurt someone and loose the publics trust. but knows that Darkseid can take it. And then proceeds to beat the **** out of him. THAT is superman.

Lets also not forget when Darkseid kills his cop friend, and you see a very touching moment of him standing besides his grave at sunset. you won't get that in MOS. There is no reason for the public to LOVE that Superman...so the whole friggen thing doesn't work.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Superman being a little aloof in the destruction of Metropolis.

Considering it's his First Day At Work I can't even really be bothered by this part.

Since so many people have read a million comics, watched a million cartoons and other movies and such, they're so used to seeing Superman be "perfect" and know exactly what to do in every situation. When watching MoS they often ignore or disregard the fact that the guy just sorta walked into this whole scenario and has no idea what he's doing. Which is why he's mostly just reacting vs. acting, the whole time.

But he learns. As reflected in BvS when he immediately tries to take Doomsday into space. He didn't think of that with Zod until they'd already knocked over half of Metropolis, but in BvS he was a year more experienced and had already been in a similar fight once before. So by then he had "tools" he didn't have when he fought Zod.

Year One Superman is always reckless and "aloof", going back to 1938. He always gets more "polished" as he goes along. I was actually shocked - and still am - that anyone even takes points off for things like this.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

There is no reason for the public to LOVE that Superman...so the whole friggen thing doesn't work.

You think "the public" SHOULD have unconditionally bent down to show love of a guy who literally just fell out of the sky and - as shown - has the power to break the world if he felt like it? Why? They know nothing about the guy yet.

WE know Superman is a good guy because we're the audience. "They", the characters in the world of the movie, do not. Until he sacrifices himself to stop Doomsday. That was the entire point. "Gosh, I guess he really WAS a hero; we were burning him in effigy five minutes ago but he still gave his life to save the world." At which point they DID love him.

The entire point of MoS and BvS was how he had to 1. Learn how to Be Superman, and 2. EARN people's trust and support. You don't just throw on a cape, say "HI! I'm here to help!" and have the whole world unconditionally trust and love you. That isn't how sh*t works, man. Maybe it works that way in cartoons and fairy tales. Not in reality.

But again, you keep comparing something that was trying to tell a more realistic story against something made explicitly for little children. Stop that. Preference is preference but it's like you are deliberately missing the entire point of the movies.

That's maybe the WORST thing about the Reeve movies. Guy just shows up and everyone immediately trusts him no questions asked. Even in Part III when he goes "bad" for a bit, he just shows up and says "Awww, I'm sorry!" and everyone shrugs it off. F*cking awful.

Last time someone with "magic powers" showed up on this planet and said "I just wanna help out", we stuck him on a cross. And again, that was the entire metaphor for Clark in MoS/BvS/ZSJL. His entire arc parallels that of Jesus Christ. They kind of go out of their way to beat you over the head with it, actually.

[Vegita-San]

like that one shot of him being pawed at by a giant crowd too afraid to go near a god? Yeah. No thank you.

there's a reason marvel went back to the 'trust your friendly neighborhood spiderman' line. some things are timeless and just work.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

I've said it before but I still mourn what could have been had WB approached things differently. If they'd soldiered on with Green Lantern 2 (learning from their mistakes, of course), made TDKR differently so as to dovetail into a DCEU, Wonder Woman proceeded as planned... what an amazing shared universe that would have been. BvS with Bale and Cavill, man, that'd have been awesome. And Justice League would've felt fully justified and not cart before the horse. Ryan Reynolds' Hal instead of Cryborg.

I would've liked a GL 2 but I can't really get on with the rest of this. Nothing Nolan established would have worked for a DCU with other super-heroes in it. That would've been awful to try and retrofit, and judging by Bale's pitiful performance in Dark Knight Rises, he was already mentally done with being Batman by then anyway. Plus, he flat-out said he was not interested in ever doing a Batman in a movie with other super-heroes. Sure, they could have thrown $30 million at him to sleepwalk through it, but would it have been any good? Nah.

And Cyborg's arc was one of the best things about Snyder's Justice League, you're nuts. I know you hate the actor but let's be objective here. There is nothing that Reynolds cracking jokes would have added that would've been "better" than what we got. Actually, it would have probably made the Green Lantern character look pretty weak considering by rights, he should be able to handle Steppenwolf pretty easily all by himself. Having Hal get slapped around so that Superman could make the save would've been pretty bad. It was acceptable with the roster they had since they're all way weaker characters than Superman, but it would have been very weird seeing Hal (or any GL) be forced to take a knee for even a second.

By the time the League got around to fighting Darkseid in a future movie, by all means stick a Green Lantern in there, he'd be necessary. For Steppenwolf? They would have had to keep coming up with contrived scenarios to take him off the board because he's just too powerful.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

like that one shot of him being pawed at by a giant crowd too afraid to go near a god? Yeah. No thank you.

there's a reason marvel went back to the 'trust your friendly neighborhood spiderman' line. some things are timeless and just work.

I guess you didn't catch in his facial expression how that whole scene made him extremely uncomfortable since he doesn't want to be hero-worshiped? Or how it was a deliberate homage to how in the 90s comics there was a literal "Cult of Superman" that he was none too thrilled with, either?

The narration in the montage immediately after that literally drives home the point that "The people of Earth might see him as a god, but HE doesn't see himself that way and he doesn't want them to either." Again, the entire point of the f*cking scene. They literally have a narrator say out loud, "Maybe he's not some Devil OR Jesus character... maybe he's just a guy trying to do the right thing?". Which as we The Audience know, IS actually what he is.

The entire point of the montage was to make all of this explicitly clear. Were you taking a leak?

Dude, those movies 100% went over your head.

[Andrew NDB]

It wouldn't be perfect, but the Nolan movies could have served as DCEU pieces if they'd just rejiggered that third movie. It would need to be him rising to the challenge of being Batman on a big scale, not retiring and then re-retiring, of course. But I can easily watch Batman Begins and TDK and then watch MoS and imagine that being the same universe. Maybe not so much if we get into stuff like "but in the 1940s, there used to be the JSA, and WW was seen fighting and flying around WWI!" but enough to make most things work well enough.

As for Bale not wanting to do a 4th or being mentally done, I don't buy it. Even this past month or two he said he'd do a 4th movie if Nolan picked up the phone. I also remember an interview with him after BvS where he said a big part of him is screaming that he wished that was still him in the suit.

Steppenwolf vs. a GL wouldn't be too bad. It would be like when GL fights Mongul or something.

[Leo656]

Eh. Bored Christian Bale doing it for the money isn't any fun to watch. I hear you, I just don't agree. He's my second-favorite Batman but he had his turn.

I do understand his frustration though, since he's also said he felt like he never got to go deep enough into the character and I agree with him. They got off to a great start with him, but even by the second movie they were already f*cking it up and forgetting who Bruce was. They spent the entire first movie establishing that "He has to be Batman because the system is too corrupt to function as it should", and then in the second one he meets Harvey Dent and IMMEDIATELY starts thinking "Oh, yeah, this guy's cool, maybe I don't need to be Batman anymore." And then he got sidelined for huge chunks of the movie once Nolan started finding Ledger's Joker more interesting. And the less said about the third movie, the better.

So I agree with Bale that he was kind of robbed of the chance to go deep into Bruce's character, but maybe he should have raised his voice more during the filming of Dark Knight, or definitely during the third one. But again, I get the feeling by the third one he just wanted to be done. He looks SO bored in that one, like "Let's just get done and go home."

I don't doubt that it tortures him, but again, hindsight is 20/20 and he had his chance to speak up. I wish he would have, maybe the third movie wouldn't be so "ugh."

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Steppenwolf vs. a GL wouldn't be too bad. It would be like when GL fights Mongul or something.

At least Mongul is yellow. Why would he struggle against Steppenwolf?

I love the Green Lantern character but I admit that his stories are often contrived because he SHOULD be one of the strongest and most unbeatable characters there is, yet he always struggles against guys that should be no sweat for him Because Plot. You have a ring that reacts to your thoughts; just make a thicker force field or a bigger gun, or something.

It's like Gardner is the only Lantern with the imagination and willpower to actually use the damn ring properly.

[Cowabung-Gal]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Meanwhile, it was announced Zack Snyder would be voicing himself in Teen Titans Go

There's your scraps for the day.

He must be a masochist then.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Dude, those movies 100% went over your head.

or you just like the dark, bleak, less humanity, look that DC is going for here.

The whole reason they see him as a god is because he was brought up beilving in 'you don't owe humanity anything'. and basically turned his back on them. He only helps out when he absolutely has too. otherwise he's more into climbing into a tub with lois (and who can blame him?)

The first reeves movie you have jorel saying ' they are a good people, my son'. setting it up for WHY he wants to be a hero in the first place. there is none of that here. Or they stepped over it quickly just to go with the cool, dark, brooding look to make every hero a batman.

Again, in your vaunted cartoons... Shazam versus Superman. Shazam quits the justice league because he thinks that superman was a boyscout like him. Superman admits this is not the case. he has emotions just like everyone else. and even the other hero's are shocked with 'I thought YOU where the boyscout!' and he goes something like 'not by a long shot'.

You CAN be a 'goody too shoes' without being all dark, moody and depressing.

bet you think B:TAS batman is weak for taking the time to save the criminals, even if he agrees with their vengeance tactics most of the time (he doesn't help mr.freeze's enemy get un frozen, for instance.). we don't see that code of justice anymore.

I await your 'Jane, you ignorant slut' reply ;o)