Pattinson/Reeves Batman Movie (Formerly Affleck Stand-Alone Film)

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by Sumac

So making Riddler, jigsaw serial killer will, most likely, result in him becoming serial killer in the comic books. Because, that's how character will be remembered / known by most people.

Sh*t, for all I know he actually IS that in the comics, by now.

Much as I'm a "comics-first" purist, I haven't hardly read a f*cking thing since 2011, when DC basically tried to turn their whole line into Marvel with the New 52. Which had a grand effect of entertaining Marvel fans for a month or two before they went right back to their X-Men comics - because Coke fans will NEVER be Pepsi fans and vice-versa, no matter how you advertise it or tinker with the formula - and at the same time pushing longtime DC fans like me - who liked DC in the first place because it was DC and, y'know, NOT Marvel - completely out the door since everything was now completely unrecognizable.

They made Lobo a limp-wristed swishmeister and Starfire an unrepentant slutbag, so it wouldn't shock me if they went ahead and made Riddler into Jigsaw in the comics at some point between 2011 and now, too. That's the kind of "creative" ideas you get from the braintrust that says stuff like "Yeah, let's have Joker cut his own face off for kicks. Kooky!"

Comics will always be my preferred intake method for super-heroes, since they can go places more "mainstream" pop culture like movies and TV shows can't go to. They can be more fantastical or more violent or more cerebral or more ANY thing, without worrying about actors' contracts or studio budgets or trying to time a story so that it hits at the right time to align with the ever-shifting taste of the lowest common denominator, or whatever else. The stories and characters simply thrive better in the medium they were designed for.

But DC's print output post-2011 has been pretty f*cking dismal, ever since they started trying to chase Marvel money. Once upon a time, they were fine being themselves. Then they got greedy and started trying to copy "the other guys" for the first time, and nothing's been right since.

Sad.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I do think Reeves intended him to be bigger, because the statues and figures that have been released show a bulkier version of Bruce wearing the Reeves batsuit. It's actually a bit shocking to see.
I mean, this leads me to believe that Reeves intended for a bulkier Batman, but at the same time he seems to be leaning into a grungey, Kurt Cobain-like Batman, so maybe a skinny version is an aesthetic choice related to that? There are some possibilities.

But like you said, word is that they asked him to bulk up more, and he claimed it wasn't that important, which I agree made him sound like an ass, given the context and granted the idea that the director asked him to.

But again, movie magic may alleviate that a bit.

Either way, I'm excited to see him play Bruce, based on his acting chops. Have you seen him outside of Twilight? He's really good at bringing a character to life.

I saw him in Good Times where he was good. I'm surprised they haven't made a version where Bruce Wayne is a famous actor with premadonna issues.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Sumac

I don't really care what other movies are doing. I see each movie as its own thing.
When it comes to a Batman he was kept "realistic" for far too long. So for me it would be refreshing, if they've embraced more "comic book-ish" elements of his universe.

That's fine if you don't care what other movies are doing, but you seemed to miss my point, further evidence by where your quote of my post ends. The point is, I find it refreshing because it's the only comic book movie that is currently leaning into realism. I think that explains itself.

But secondly, you are saying "i don't really care what other movies are doing" and then going on to say that Batman was kept realistic for far too long...in other movies, and now it is time for change.
So your post implies that you do care how this film relates to other movies, just as much as I do, because you are saying they've been doing something realistic with Batman for too long and now it is time for change.

I mean, we are making the same type of point, except I am relating the movie to other comic films and calling it refreshing, while you are relating it to other Batman films and calling it a retread. Clearly we are both concerned with context surrounding the film.

Originally Posted by Sumac

I specifically said, that Batfleck was a rather realistic and dark take on Batman, outside of Justice League stuff. Yeah, when Batman fights Superman it is bound to be "not-realistic" and, yeah, we never got a solo Batfleck, so it is hard to say how exactly his own world would've been portrayed in the movie. But from what can be surmised from BVS and JL - it would have been dark and gritty and probably closer to realism, than I'd prefer.

Yes, I understand you are clarifying he is realistic "outside of the Justice League" stuff, but that doesn't hold water with me, because the Justice League stuff is completely pervasive.

Batman's whole driving force of in both of his major DCEU appearances is to fight off an alien invasion. Pointing to select scenes in which he doesn't fight aliens doesn't mean anything. It's completely selective.
Snyder isn't trying to depict a world grounded in our reality. It's much more fantastical than what Reeves is attempting. We both know that.

And thus, is how I find Reeves version refreshing, compared to what we've been seeing from other comic movies, or even movies featuring Batman, as of late.

Originally Posted by Sumac

Since most people are not comic book readers, they will see current movie version a canon thing, regardless of whether or not it is close to comic book canon or not. Even if its based on weird spin-offs.

Thus it will influence canon comic book stories, so, yes, it is important how characters are presented in the movies, because, in the audience mindshare those portrayals are the current canon.

This fails to raise my heart rate. If that's where your concerns lie, then good luck to you.

Honestly, mine don't. I love the comics as much as anyone, point blank. I have extreme reverence for them. I believe in them.
But I don't give two craps if casual audiences see a slightly different take on a character and prefer it to (one of the many, vastly different) versions in the comics. It literally has zero effect on my life. Especially because the comics themselves aren't even consistent, rendering the whole complaint sort of moot. Different strokes.

Originally Posted by Sumac

So making Riddler, jigsaw serial killer will, most likely, result in him becoming serial killer in the comic books. Because, that's how character will be remembered / known by most people.

The Riddler has always been a serial killer. He's an elaborate one. He sets up death-traps in which you can only escape if you have great intellect.

But if this "Zodiac-esque" version of the Riddler is so electric that comic writers find inspiration in him and casual audiences are enamored with him, that's a good sign for the movie.

Btw, most importantly, which current Batman comics are you reading? Are you actually invested in them anymore? Do you care if the next book featuring Riddler has him wearing a green mask? Will you even know if that happens?

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

I saw him in Good Times where he was good. I'm surprised they haven't made a version where Bruce Wayne is a famous actor with premadonna issues.

That's where he won me over. Fantastic film!

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I will, however, say that his lack of Jew-fro makes him marginally LESS distasteful to me than Shia. People with curly hair make my skin crawl. FIX THAT SH*T, BUY A COMB, JESUS.

Do you have any idea how many combs my hair chews up and spits out?

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I do think Reeves intended him to be bigger, because the statues and figures that have been released show a bulkier version of Bruce wearing the Reeves batsuit. It's actually a bit shocking to see.

There were a few articles at the beginning of production that WB was getting frustrated at Pattinson. That, despite a rigorous training regimen, he wasn't able to put on all the muscle they were wanting.

Probably true.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

There were a few articles at the beginning of production that WB was getting frustrated at Pattinson. That, despite a rigorous training regimen, he wasn't able to put on all the muscle they were wanting.

Probably true.

Right on. In an interview, Pattinson even said himself that he didn't think it was that important. Given how far special effects and camera trickery have come, I could get on with his argument, but not if Reeves was truly requesting he get in better shape for the role. Reeves is the one who should be deciding whether or not it matters, seeing that he has a better grasp on how the film needs to be shot.

So, if you get a chance, take a look at these upcoming sculpts based on the movie:

https://www.prime1studio.com/tbm-the...-mmtbm-01.html

https://batman-news.com/2021/10/28/m...-black-statue/

It's possible that these studios just took some creative liberties, but I'm thinking this was how the concept art looked before Pattinson stepped on set.

Hm, but then again, the face doesn't even resemble Pattinson much on the Prime1 statue.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

But secondly, you are saying "i don't really care what other movies are doing" and then going on to say that Batman was kept realistic for far too long...in other movies, and now it is time for change.
So your post implies that you do care how this film relates to other movies, just as much as I do, because you are saying they've been doing something realistic with Batman for too long and now it is time for change.

I meant "I don't care about what other movies are doing, aside from movies about Batman".
I should have made it clear via context.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

This fails to raise my heart rate. If that's where your concerns lie, then good luck to you.

Honestly, mine don't. I love the comics as much as anyone, point blank. I have extreme reverence for them. I believe in them.
But I don't give two craps if casual audiences see a slightly different take on a character and prefer it to (one of the many, vastly different) versions in the comics. It literally has zero effect on my life. Especially because the comics themselves aren't even consistent, rendering the whole complaint sort of moot. Different strokes.

You are missing the point here - if movie version of character will become popular enough it might "rewrite" version of character in the comic books.

This my main concern when it comes to such frivolous interpretations.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

The Riddler has always been a serial killer.

Links, please?

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Sumac

I meant "I don't care about what other movies are doing, aside from movies about Batman".
I should have made it clear via context.

For sure. We've both clarified ourselves on that then.

Originally Posted by Sumac

You are missing the point here - if movie version of character will become popular enough it might "rewrite" version of character in the comic books.

This my main concern when it comes to such frivolous interpretations.

I get it, I just don't care. And that's as someone who adores the comics.

It will only rewrite the comics version if people love it. People loving a new thing more than an old thing doesn't bum me out. It's not like anyone is doing anything interesting with the character lately.

I really don't understand this concern. The characters constantly evolve based on what the writers and the audience want. Danny Devito's Penguin didn't overwrite the comics version. Heath Ledger's Joker didn't rewrite the "canon" comics version. Some may take influence from it and some may not. It came and went. It's just another version of the character and it doesn't concern me at all.

And without calling you out personally, it seems like a lot of people who make this complaint aren't reading any of the modern comics anyways.

Originally Posted by Sumac

Links, please?

Read his first appearance, in which Riddler tries to blow up Batman and Robin, followed by decades of the character attempting to kill people.

Why are we delineating this version of Riddler as being merely a serial killer, again? Because he is dressed like the Zodiac?
The Riddler has always been a narcissist, obsessed with Batman, who tried to kill people, by way of riddles and deathtraps. That's The Riddler.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I get it, I just don't care. And that's as someone who adores the comics.

Well, I do care.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Read his first appearance, in which Riddler tries to blow up Batman and Robin, followed by decades of the character attempting to kill people.

Why are we delineating this version of Riddler as being merely a serial killer, again? Because he is dressed like the Zodiac?
The Riddler has always been a narcissist, obsessed with Batman, who tried to kill people, by way of riddles and deathtraps. That's The Riddler.

None of it makes him a "serial killer", like some Hannibal Lektor or something.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Sumac

Well, I do care.


None of it makes him a "serial killer", like some Hannibal Lektor or something.

Who says the movie version is anything like Hannibal Lektor? What do they have in common?

You’re free to worry about how the movie portrayal will effect the comics. I don’t. Agree to disagree.

But it’s worth mentioning that not even the almighty Heath Ledger Joker portrayal had an effect on how the Joker is treated in the canon comics. Nor did Burton’s Penguin, Joker, Or Catwoman. Or Nolan’s Bane. So i really don’t know what you’re worried about.
More so because you haven’t confirmed you’re actually reading the books you’re worried about. Surely you can understand why that makes it puzzling.

[sdp]

Looks like the Live Action Gotham TV show still has the best version of Batman Rogues. Which includes the Riddler. Hugely underrated, it mixed realism with fantasy really well, it had most rogues and in their full wacky comic versions. We also got two different Jokers and both were great.

[Leo656]

Man, watching Aqua unload, I'm over here thinking about how the last time anyone fought this hard to defend questionable choices, it was the Confederacy.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Man, watching Aqua unload, I'm over here thinking about how the last time anyone fought this hard to defend questionable choices, it was the Confederacy.

I could easily name some for you but it's probably best if I don't.

[AquaParade]

Feels good to shut down wankery such as “don’t ruin the comics I don’t read!” Or “Riddler hates when people die!”.

We have artists at work here, with Matt Reeves and Paul Dano. Mind them and yourselves.

Spoiler:

Nah, I’m talking out my ass. I’m glad you guys disagree with me. At the end of the day, these conversations are entertaining, or I wouldn’t be here. All due respect.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by LeotheLateBloomer

I could easily name some for you but it's probably best if I don't.

It's just that the joke came to me in the shower and lo and behold that was the first chance I had to use it on someone.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by Leo656

It's just that the joke came to me in the shower and lo and behold that was the first chance I had to use it on someone.

No you're good.

But I'm wondering what villains will work in this series if they really are going for a realistic approach? I was kinda hoping to see another attempt at Poison Ivy or even Man-Bat. But I can't see this happening if the movies continue to be "realistic." I view comic book movies as escapism from the real world and goodness knows people could use it right now during these times. Batman and realism? Cool. For every Batman movie here on out? Absolutely not.

[AquaParade]

I'm almost out of ideas when it comes to realistic villains I want to see. Maybe someone taking over the mantle of the bat, like Azrael or Hugo Strange.

Professor Pig and Ventriloquist would be cool for smaller roles.

The villains I'd really want to see adapted would require far more supernatural takes on Batman. Clayface or Dr. Hurt, along with the three other "Batmen".
Mad Hatter. Maybe the girl from Mask of the Phantasm.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Man, watching Aqua unload, I'm over here thinking about how the last time anyone fought this hard to defend questionable choices, it was the Confederacy.

For maximum effect you should change that last part to, "it was the Democrats in the Confederacy fighting to keep their slaves."

[LeotheLateBloomer]

Originally Posted by sdp

Looks like the Live Action Gotham TV show still has the best version of Batman Rogues. Which includes the Riddler. Hugely underrated, it mixed realism with fantasy really well, it had most rogues and in their full wacky comic versions. We also got two different Jokers and both were great.

https://pm1.narvii.com/7755/d110ac93...7-368v2_00.jpg

I watched the first few episodes of Gotham but remember not liking it that much. Maybe it just wasn't for me but I heard the show got a lot more interesting later on. What fantasy elements did it use?

Is the show on Hulu or Netflix?

[Andrew NDB]

I look at Gotham a little bit like I look at Smallville. In that in both cases, I haven't seen either (beyond buying the first season of Smallville, watching 3 or 4 episodes and getting angry and turning it off) but I have the benefit of seeing the "final moment" from both series. And in both cases, looking back at the prospects of me watching it from the beginning, I can educatedly say "Oh yeah, NOPE!" and feel pretty good about that.