Over time, do you like the 1987 Cartoon more or less?

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Oh wow, imagine if fans felt there was some sort of obligation to add the Wonder Twins and those two stupid kid (the girl and the wimp with the cape) in every DC cartoon since then or else it wouldn't 'feel authentic' or whatever.

Yeah, that's more or less where the TMNT fanbase tends to be in regards to Bebop and Rocksteady. Even if we were to pretend that the TMNT franchise really did start with the Fred Wolf cartoon, thus making Bebop and Rocksteady characters that were always there from the beginning, it still wouldn't justify putting them in everything. Doctor Death is Batman's earliest "proper" supervillain but he has never been in anything other than comics despite debuting 83 years ago, there isn't room for everyone and he's not exactly the most interesting one to use. Likewise, Bebop and Rocksteady are really just henchmen with very little motivation and backstory of their own, it's really just the savanna animal thing they have going for them and you might as well just replace them with anyone whenever Shredder needs henchmen.

And to bring it back to the Wonder Twins example, yeah, that really would just prioritise the nostalgia of Super Friends over potential or even really like... Actual popularity. The Wonder Twins are mostly just kind of an unintentional joke, even to people who grew up with the show. They have to fist bump every time they want to use their powers and one of them turns into a puddle of water by doing so, there's basically no way they were actually revised beyond the initial idea.

[ZariusTwo]

It's never been bettered and the franchise would never have been worth a s*it without it, it'd otherwise have fizzled out after it's initial status as an indie hit.

[cammy85]

Some aspects have aged better than others, like the action oriented seasons and even some of the Turtle-centered episodes from Seasons 4-5. I watched Michaelangelo, the Sacred Turtle last night for example. It depends on the mood you're in, really. There's something for everyone.

[MrPliggins]

The original opening theme is still the best one IMO. Although I admit I haven’t seen or heard the Rise opening, so I could be wrong.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

It's never been bettered and the franchise would never have been worth a s*it without it, it'd otherwise have fizzled out after it's initial status as an indie hit.

Considering how much sh*t we've endured since then, I'd be perfectly fine with that scenario.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

It's never been bettered and the franchise would never have been worth a s*it without it, it'd otherwise have fizzled out after it's initial status as an indie hit.

I believe I've said this before but we don't really know if that's true. It might feel as if it's true because it came out very early on in the franchise's history and was a big hit, but to say that the "the franchise would never have been worth a s*it without it" is to greatly exaggerate it's importance. As long as the Mirage studios comics came to exist, there is no real way of telling what would have happened if the Fred Wolf cartoon never existed.

So, time for a little thought experiment, I will present four different alternative scenarios for you and you'll try to answer them after you try to figure out the outcome. Here we go:

1. The first scenario, That comedians in make-up movie gets made. This would result in a live-action movie coming out before the Fred Wolf cartoon is made, preventing it from taking the shape it did in real life. As a result of the movie, the first cartoon is essentially a comedy with turtles who have very human looking faces. The movie and this alternative cartoon likely never has any of the elements of the Fred Wolf cartoon, probably being somewhere in between this movie and the comics.
2. The second scenario, everything up until the production of the Fred Wolf cartoon is the same, except Laird and Eastman find a different production company that adapts the comics more faithfully and treats them with more respect, leading to a more stable partnership.
3. The third scenario, the Fred Wolf cartoon is indeed made but it gets a worse time slot and is forced to compete with something more popular in season 1, leading to it's cancellation after only five episodes. The comics still continue to sell however.
4. The fourth scenario, a cartoon literally isn't made before the tenth's anniversary and a fan of the comics decide to make an adaption and gets the license.

None of these are implausible scenarios, any of them could have easily happened.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Likewise, Bebop and Rocksteady are really just henchmen with very little motivation and backstory of their own, it's really just the savanna animal thing they have going for them and you might as well just replace them with anyone whenever Shredder needs henchmen.

Who says Shredder needs "henchmen"?

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Who says Shredder needs "henchmen"?

If you don't count the ninjas working for him as henchmen, then no he does not need them unless the plot calls for it. The broader point is that if he has them, they don't have to be Bebop and Rocksteady in particular.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

If Shredder didn't have Bebop and Rocksteady, some of his plans may have succeeded. The two mutants needed to be around so they could screw up his plans and keep the show going.

[Antoniocafe]

I think I like show just as much now as I did during the 90s. What I don't really like very much is the way that the show has been portrayed in Turtles Forever and the Nickelodeon cartoon.

[Mad Dog McMutt]

I like the cartoon more and more all the time. I hadn't seen it for like 25 years, but then I decided to buy the complete series like 5 years ago while I was going through a hard time in my life. It was like hanging out with an old friend again. If anybody out there is going through a rough patch I recommend watching an old show you liked when you were a kid.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Mad Dog McMutt

I like the cartoon more and more all the time. I hadn't seen it for like 25 years, but then I decided to buy the complete series like 5 years ago while I was going through a hard time in my life. It was like hanging out with an old friend again. If anybody out there is going through a rough patch I recommend watching an old show you liked when you were a kid.

A year ago, I watched the Whole of Invader Zim and it was a fantastic experience after not having seen the show since my childhood. Its the best possible combination, watching a show that is not only nostalgic, but has alot of good qualities in of itself.

[jignat]

I like it less and less especially after seeing the 1990 film and the 2003 show.
The 1987 show is basically the Adam West version of TMNT.

While there are a lot of 80s cartoons that had cheese like Transformers/GIJoe, they werent 100% comedy all the time and sometimes had some decent action/lore building episodes here and there.

What makes me like the 1987 show less is also how it seems to dictate the TMNT brand to an almost insane extent even 35 years laet. So many tropes/concepts derived from this

Pizza obsession

Mike being a silly,immature goofball with a surfer accent

Rarely using the weapons in combat /changing weapons/ using pratfalls to defeat enemies

Shredder being overused and being an overseer who barely fights and is mostly a comedic presence

April being a damsel in distress or only caring about the next story (Her relationship with the bros doesnt really seem familial like Mirage/2003)

[TheUltimateBum]

Honestly, I think I like it better and better over time. Still, I must say that the Red Sky seasons have always been the best part of the show for me, but the previous seasons are harmless fun and the actors really embraced the silliness of the stuff.

[Anarchistguy]

I liked it as a kid, but eventually outgrew it (outside of the first five episodes). The 1990 movie opened me to a version of TMNT that made me resent the Fred wolf series even more.

That resentment subsided once the 2003 TMNT came along, but I rarely go back and watch the Fred Wolf series.

It's your typical 80s cartoon that only exists to sell toys.

[Antoniocafe]

I disagree that the original cartoon only existed to sell toys. I'm definitely not going to sit here and claim it to be the greatest cartoon ever created. But if you take it for what it is, I still find it to be a very entertaining cartoon. When I think "toy commercial" episodes of cartoons, I think of episodes of the original Transformers cartoon like "Auto Berserk" or "The Girl Who Loved Powerglide". Those episodes focused on minor characters who were given the spotlight just to promote their toy. I never really felt that way when watching the original TMNT cartoon. The cartoon absolutely had some episodes that were stinkers. But I've always felt that those episodes were simply poorly produced, and not that they were trying to sell a toy.

[Zachatello00]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

I used to be more nitpicky about things like animation and writing in the past, but present me cares more about colourful characters, which are plentiful in the 1987 toon.

I'm kinda the opposite on this. It's funny, the relationship I have with this show, and the turtles in general. Maybe I'm getting old (maturing?), maybe I'm becoming a bit more cynical, but I'm less impressed with colorful characters and more concerned with writing and good stories being told.

That said, I've really struggled to appreciate the OG toon outside of the first 5 episode miniseries. I've always appreciated the care that Peter Laird put into the 2k3 show, and how he fought to keep it as pure as it could be without becoming a toy commercial and stay true to many of the original mirage stories.

It's gotten to where I've been questioning whether I want to keep the old toys or not, which i've whittled down to essentially the main 12 or so characters, plus Casey who was by and large ignored in this show. Maybe I shouldn't necessarily connect the two, the toys held different memories than the cartoon did.

I suppose it's one of those things I'm grateful for, TMNT played a huge role in my childhood, and subsequent versions of the cartoons/movies still play a big role, but the 88 toon in particular is largely something that I just don't really ... "miss" these days.

I appreciate the thread, because I've been thinking a lot about this lately.

[Leo656]

Yeah. I mean I can kind of understand why some people who like "wacky and zany" things are such huge fans of FW TMNT, but... I am not a "wacky/zany" fan just in general, and frankly, I genuinely do struggle to understand why anyone would like that kind of thing.

What so many people describe (about TMNT, or anything in general) as "zany, wacky, and FUN" just comes off to me as "Dumb For The Sake Of Dumb" and I can't really condone such a thing being celebrated, let alone deified. People can like what they like, but just like with black licorice I cannot and will never understand Why. I do not have the capacity to understand Why. I just see people saying "We Should Like Dumb Things BECAUSE They Are Dumb, Because Dumb Is FUN!" And y'know... I just can't. Statements like that are contrary to pretty much my entire being.

And the FW show is just SO much "dumb for the sake of being dumb" that more and more, I find myself resenting a lot of it, and flat-out hating other parts of it. Like, early this morning I skimmed one of those silly lists of "Worst TMNT Cartoon Villains", and good god, was there some horrifically godawful and indefensibly stupid sh*t in that show. Much of which I've blocked from memory after all this time, but when confronted with it again my overwhelming thought was "Jesus... I actually watched this show for 1-2 hours EVERY day for 5 years?" And so much shame. I know, for a fact, that I had other things to do. And yet, I willingly subjected myself to stuff like Ogg and Percival Pifflecoot and sh*t like that, multiple times.

I don't know, man. That show is like PEAK "just shut your brain off" stuff, and I physically don't have the capacity to do that whatsoever. I guess my definition of what's "fun" runs contrary to most peoples. I simply don't have "fun" watching ANY show that makes me feel stupider for having watched it. 95% or more of FW TMNT does that for me.

As others have said, I can only really tolerate the early stuff. And I appreciate the late-game effort during the Red Sky era to "course-correct" and finally start taking things seriously (to a point), but it was a very half-hearted, borderline half-assed attempt that came way too late to actually do any good anyway.

It's just one of those things where every single time I try to revisit it, I end up just deciding to leave the memories alone. I don't want to actually "hate" the show as some people do, but that's inevitably what will happen if I ever make a serious attempt to watch it again.

Them's the breaks. It was made for 6-year olds and I ain't 6. It is what it is.

[Zachatello00]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Them's the breaks. It was made for 6-year olds and I ain't 6. It is what it is.

I think that's just it. It's a cartoon made for little kids, and when I was a little kid, I loved it. I'm not a little kid anymore, and so, I guess I'm okay letting it go.

It's like, Batman.

Batman has various levels of "maturity", depending on wherever you are in life, you can enjoy it. There's Batman 66 or Brave and the Bold for younger audiences. There's Dark Knight or Batman 2022 for your more mature audience. Me? The 1992 series hits me just right.

TMNT is kinda the same, I guess. There's the 88 show for the little ones, 2k3 or 2012 maybe for a bit older, the movies and Last Ronin for others...

It's not the TMNT themselves, it's just that show that's marketed toward not 40 years that makes me kinda want to move on, I guess.

[Leo656]

I mean I wouldn't even really care that the FW cartoon is sacrosanct to so many people, if many of those same people didn't inevitably confront anyone who says "I just outgrew it and can't watch it anymore" with ad hominem attacks about being a joyless edgelord or whatever, as happens so often.

It's like I haven't listened to my Sesame Street records since I was 4, either; wow, what a supervillain. Clearly that means I haven't so much as smiled ever since. People are allowed to acknowledge that they're no longer the target audience or satisfied by material aimed at that audience, it doesn't make them bad people or "joyless" or whatever. It just means they have more sophisticated taste than they did when they still thought boogers tasted great.

If people want to have the absolute same sincere appreciation and devotion for a thing they liked at that age, it's their business. But people like myself should be allowed to raise an eyebrow at that AND say "I don't like it anymore because I'm a grown-up" without being called names over it.