THE FOREVER WAR - Qestions and Answers discussion thread (with SPOILERS)

[Demon-Alukard]

Originally Posted by bjaxx87

I gotta admit, I never read a single issue of Archie TMNT, but I heard stories about the "lost" Forever War since my earliest TMNT-comic-collecting-days, so I just needed to jump aboard.

It's an impressive piece of work and a very fun time travel story. Especially the first 2 chapters gave me strong Back to the Future vibes, but the transition to the "new" stuff was also very smooth and everything felt coherent. I enjoyed how dangerous that no-bull$hit-Shredder felt who learned from every single mistake he ever made and simply got rid of all his deadweight. All the stuff that happened to Shredder after The Forever War left me a bit confused, but that's to be expected since I lack too much knowledge.

As a non-Archie TMNT fan I sometimes got a bit irritated when the turtles started talking like some Fred Wolf goofballs while a lot of serious stuff was happening around them, but I guess that's part of the appeal of Archie TMNT. I pre-ordered the first new omnibus and look forward to read the rest of the series. I'll absolutely re-read the Forever War once I'm through.

Thank you to everyone involved, you created a true labor of love and a big part of TMNT history!

Thanks on the good word!
A little sneak peak at what we'll be announcing very soon =)

[neatoman]

[Zog The Magnificent]

I might have more questions later, if I think of them, and more thoughts in general. For now, I'll say that the comic is very good and I really enjoyed it.

My question, as it turns out, is about the little postcards depicting scenes from the comic. I was trying to arrange them in chronological order, which I have done except for one. It's the one where April is running away from Zombies in the middle of a village at night, and for the life of me I cannot remember what story that was.

Which issue was that one?

[Demon-Alukard]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

I might have more questions later, if I think of them, and more thoughts in general. For now, I'll say that the comic is very good and I really enjoyed it.

My question, as it turns out, is about the little postcards depicting scenes from the comic. I was trying to arrange them in chronological order, which I have done except for one. It's the one where April is running away from Zombies in the middle of a village at night, and for the life of me I cannot remember what story that was.

Which issue was that one?

Thank you! That's TMNT Adventures #27.

[LUIS]

I went for my copy yestarday at the post office, really enjoyed the comic (although it really feels different and a little more rushed after the second issue). That Rat King was Chet all along was an amazing revelation. It's very fitting how is not really a conclusive story for the adventure's turtles "This is a Forever war, sons". I was wondering who was Clair the entire comic (yeah I forgot the name of April's sister in Mirage) kinda sad how she just doesn't exist in the original timeline (or in every other non mirage continuity). Finally I agree with some guys here, would have love to see Umeko and Raph together again Maybe they meet again in a future fan comic?

[LUIS]

Originally Posted by Demon-Alukard

Thank you! That's TMNT Adventures #27.

https://sun9-43.userapi.com/impg/l0d...b09&type=album

I misspoke, her sister's name was Robyn in Mirage, still a cool revelation.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Okay, I have another question.

The way time travel here seems to be the multiverse variety; Any changes made in the past create a split timeline, leaving the original unaffected while each timeline goes on.

We have the 1987 show. Armaggon showing up in the past splits the timeline off, creating the Archie comic. The 1987 show continues on undisturbed.

In this new comic timeline, Shredder goes back from the future to around Issue #18, has his adventures through #26, then goes back to the future. The turtles run into him again in #36, then get taken to the future by the their future selves, fight, and return. Shredder is left in the future.

At some point, he goes all the way back to before the 87 show started, stops himself, stops the turtles, and creates a future where he rules the world. This should, theoretically, result in a third timeline.

Now, the turtles end up in this timeline, fight and return. A Shredder is left in the future, realizing they went back to the past (watch out!). They show up before Shredder can do his thing, he gets dumped back into the beginning of the Archie timeline, and they complete their origin.

Since their origin is different than originally depicted in the Archie comics, that would seem to imply that a fourth timeline is created, one identical to the previous Archie timeline, except they grew up over the years instead of instantly.

All this to say, does this mean that the Forever War Shredder still exists, trapped in a timeline where he still rules the world and everyone is dead, or was that timeline actually erased completely?

Because based on the way the time travel is laid out, either that timeline is still hanging around parallel to the others, or it was erased when they went back and changed it.

And if it was erased, does that mean the original 1987 show timeline was erased as well in the canon of the Archie comic? Because that doesn't seem to be how it works in the turtle multiverse, but either the "Forever War" Shredder basically still won, since all his enemies are dead and he still rules the world, or he was erased, and so was the 1987 show.

Anway, I'd appreciate some clarification on the matter.

[Demon-Alukard]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

Okay, I have another question.

No, you're wrong from the start.

To begin with, TMNT87 and Archieverse are completely different universes that overlap at some point in time (spaghetti effect). This is because similar characters in the animated series and comics originally have different origin stories that didn't come about because of Armaggon's appearance or Shredder's timejumps. Armaggon's appearance is exactly the point of separation, the point at which the storylines start to diverge. But that doesn't mean it was the TMNT87 universe before that.

Secondly, changes in the Present IMPLIES events in the Future tense, Murphy points this out repeatedly throughout the series. The other issue is that not all changes in the Present can change the Future (like defeating Maligna earlier in the Present than it was in The Future didn't affect climate change). And events in the Present don't follow events of the Future thoroughly because of Null's machinations (the Gang of Four, the death of the Mutanimals, and the like).

Third, the Turtles managed to get to the new reality for one reason -- first they traveled to the Future, and then at the moment of the bomb explosion, when Shredder had already changed the Past, they were thrown into a new version of the Present. By going back in time and stopping Shredder, they closed the time loop, restored their origin (with the differences shown in TMNTA #45) and erased The Shredder tyrant's world.

If Shredder had simply spawned a new universe, then in fact the Turtles would have returned to their Present after the bomb, without Shredder, and Shredder would have taken over the world in his new reality, without the Turtles. And everyone would be happy, no Forever War)

[shinycloudkid]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

We have the 1987 show. Armaggon showing up in the past splits the timeline off, creating the Archie comic. The 1987 show continues on undisturbed.

I saw that this wasn't the intended explanation in the post below this one. Aaaaand this quotes interpretation of what happened wasn't what I originally got from the story line. HOWEVER! I actually REALLY like this idea as an explanation as to why the first 4 issues of the series are pretty exact to a few episodes of the 1987 series and then completely deviate from there for the Archie series. (Like a butterfly effect type of ramifications)

I saw that "because the Archie series has different origins for various characters compared to the 1987 series" as an explanation for why they are separate universes. But I feel like that, could have made for some really cool crossover issues. (Exploring the deviations) I know I mentioned it before in an earlier post on this thread, but I think what I loved most about "Forever war" is that it opened up so much potential for storytelling. [Shame you guys aren't doing this stuff full time!]

But concepts of alternate timelines/realities along with the already pretty deep mythology that's been introduced within the turtles own "multi-verse" (Mirage, 1987, Archie, 2003, 2012, IDW) It seems like there is a lot of really good openings here if there were more stories that you guys. (The independent team) could go down, storytelling wise.

I know you guys have been working on this series for years now, but, as a constant fan, I'll keep asking for more!

Thanks team! Keep up the good work!

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, short answer: TMNTA was NEVER in the Fred Wolf universe, even if early on it really, really looked like it was. And Forever War is a "closed loop" time travel story.

[shinycloudkid]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Yeah, short answer: TMNTA was NEVER in the Fred Wolf universe, even if early on it really, really looked like it was. And Forever War is a "closed loop" time travel story.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0767623/

I totally had a Mandela effect moment for a sec there. Not sure about the other user there, but what I was referring to was that the first 4 issues overlap with s02e02. Your story of forever war causes the deviation between the two stories. I get that it wasn't intended, but it made for a cool theory from the user (zog) above. Thanks!

[Zog The Magnificent]

Originally Posted by Demon-Alukard

No, you're wrong from the start.

To begin with, TMNT87 and Archieverse are completely different universes that overlap at some point in time (spaghetti effect). This is because similar characters in the animated series and comics originally have different origin stories that didn't come about because of Armaggon's appearance or Shredder's timejumps. Armaggon's appearance is exactly the point of separation, the point at which the storylines start to diverge. But that doesn't mean it was the TMNT87 universe before that.

Secondly, changes in the Present IMPLIES events in the Future tense, Murphy points this out repeatedly throughout the series. The other issue is that not all changes in the Present can change the Future (like defeating Maligna earlier in the Present than it was in The Future didn't affect climate change). And events in the Present don't follow events of the Future thoroughly because of Null's machinations (the Gang of Four, the death of the Mutanimals, and the like).

Third, the Turtles managed to get to the new reality for one reason -- first they traveled to the Future, and then at the moment of the bomb explosion, when Shredder had already changed the Past, they were thrown into a new version of the Present. By going back in time and stopping Shredder, they closed the time loop, restored their origin (with the differences shown in TMNTA #45) and erased The Shredder tyrant's world.

If Shredder had simply spawned a new universe, then in fact the Turtles would have returned to their Present after the bomb, without Shredder, and Shredder would have taken over the world in his new reality, without the Turtles. And everyone would be happy, no Forever War)

I see. So the Archie comic was always completely separate, and just very conincidentally matched up with the 1987 universe for a bit at the beginning. Then, Armaggon and Shredder's mucking around in the past changed the Archie timeline itself (accounting for the differences depicted in the Archie origin), ultimately creating a closed loop that resulted in the comic the way we got it. Do I have that right?

[shinycloudkid]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

I see. So the Archie comic was always completely separate, and just very conincidentally matched up with the 1987 universe for a bit at the beginning. Then, Armaggon and Shredder's mucking around in the past changed the Archie timeline itself (accounting for the differences depicted in the Archie origin), ultimately creating a closed loop that resulted in the comic the way we got it. Do I have that right?

I'm just a fan, ignore me. Andrew I believe is the script writer and demon-alukard and a few others are the later issue plot creaters, so what they say is gold. I just thought your interpretation also seemed plausible as an interesting fan theory. So I'll back out now hahaha

[Demon-Alukard]

Originally Posted by Zog The Magnificent

I see. So the Archie comic was always completely separate, and just very conincidentally matched up with the 1987 universe for a bit at the beginning. Then, Armaggon and Shredder's mucking around in the past changed the Archie timeline itself (accounting for the differences depicted in the Archie origin), ultimately creating a closed loop that resulted in the comic the way we got it. Do I have that right?

Yes, that's right. Just like Mexican TMNT comics are based on the Archeiverse stories and then start going their own way. Some of the stories are TMNTA reprints and some are completely redrawn by Manuel Conde, who then gradually introduces his own characters and his own stories. It's a completely separate universe that overlaps with TMNTA at certain points.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Demon-Alukard

Yes, that's right. Just like Mexican TMNT comics are based on the Archeiverse stories and then start going their own way.

And the TMNT Magazine comics, which I think don't get nearly as much attention as they should. I kind of prefer that introduction to the Warrior Dragon, for example.

[LUIS]

Originally Posted by Demon-Alukard

Yes, that's right. Just like Mexican TMNT comics are based on the Archeiverse stories and then start going their own way. Some of the stories are TMNTA reprints and some are completely redrawn by Manuel Conde, who then gradually introduces his own characters and his own stories. It's a completely separate universe that overlaps with TMNTA at certain points.

https://www.turtlemania.ru/pictures/...ke_pages_1.jpg https://www.turtlemania.ru/pictures/...as_pages_3.jpg https://www.turtlemania.ru/pictures/...as_pages_4.jpg

I really want to see more of the mexican comic and how different it got. Wasn't most of it lost?

[Demon-Alukard]

Originally Posted by LUIS

I really want to see more of the mexican comic and how different it got. Wasn't most of it lost?

I have the full collection of the series. I've talked with Manuel, there is a possibility that I will make an English version of them in the future (like with the Italian comics).