Wonder Woman 1984

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I wouldn't want to say "boo-yah" either, but when you sign a contract, take the job, and start spending the money, you do what the boss says.

Except he wasn't hired by Whedon and Johns, he was hired by Snyder. And like Affleck, he was bait-and-switched; both guys signed on to do a super-hero Action/Drama, and halfway through the project they were told "Now we're making an Action/Comedy". And both guys huffed on their way out the door for exactly that reason, among others. It's like being hired to paint a house and suddenly instead of that they tell you to scrub the toilets. They wouldn't have even signed up for the job if they knew what it was going to turn into. That level of manipulation in and of itself is a form of "abuse", depending on how you look at it.

I get what you're saying but it's not quite as simple as all that. Man, even without "abuse" I think the guy's got a right to his grievance, based on the sole fact that he was hired to shoot a movie, "contractually obligated" to do reshoots on said movie, BUT when he came back to work suddenly it's a completely different movie with a completely different director. He never signed up for THAT. I mean sure it happens but generally not to that extreme of a degree. And again, had he been TOLD "We're doing an Action/Comedy", it sounds like he never even would have gone out for the role in the first place. So that reframes a lot of things, in that context.

Sure, maybe the "abuse" was as little as Fisher saying, "Hey, but what about..." and them telling him "Dude, just shut up and read the lines so we can all go home." Maybe it WAS just that and nothing more. And maybe that seems trivial.

But again, I still think that's more than enough, I still think he's right, and I personally literally would have flipped a table over, flipped them off and gone home before putting up with any of that kind of sh*t. So he's STILL a better man than I am.

A lot of the fallout we've seen among the cast and crew regarding the "Justice League" project seems to quite simply come down to a lot of people saying, "I signed up Specifically and Only to make Snyder's movie, NOT Whedon's movie." And nobody who was involved seems very happy with how it turned out, they all just deal with it differently. And I think that's okay. But I don't think it's fair to any of the individuals involved to be dismissive about it in any case, regardless of how they've chosen to deal with it.

[AquaParade]

Well, fair enough. I can understand that. And I do, or did, sympathize with Ray for what happened on that set. They turned the film he signed up for into a goof, and it wasn't even in his or the movies best interest, as they rushed it to deadline for the higher up's bonus (higher ups not to be confused with Hamata, Whedon, and Johns).
That sucks. But that's where it ends for me. It's not a reason to send the public after Whedon, Johns, and Hamata with pitchforks or call for them to lose their jobs. It's not my place, as someone who wasn't there to actually experience what went on, because secondhand information, from one side of the story, is not what I call reliable intel. And hell, we don't even really have that. And at the end of the day, he wasn't hired by Snyder, he was hired by WB. I hate to play the sniveling contract-officiando, but if you're going to agree to something, then stick to it, otherwise you're just making a mess.

Plus again, all those other holes in the story that I pointed out in my last post.

[Leo656]

After I posted I went back and saw your Edit, this was in reply to that:

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Fishet went for this but his execution was terrible and now he has nothing.

He knew the second he opened his mouth he wasn't going to work in the industry again, though, yet he went ahead with it anyway. I'm sure his lawyers and agents and handlers all told him NOT to, but he did, knowing full well that it was a bad career move. That tells me that he obviously felt very strongly about it.

People don't just "quit" or get themselves fired from multi-million dollar jobs every day over Words and Hurt Feelings. Obviously, HE thinks he's right if he's willing to work at Subway more than Warner Bros. for the rest of his life.

It's like a woman accusing her boss of rape. She's never going to work in that particular industry again, and she knows that before she comes out. That's the moment people decide if financial security weighs more than their principles. And everyone makes whatever decision they personally feel is Right.

Again, maybe Fisher's personal definition of "abuse" is inconsequential compared to most people's. Maybe unless someone literally called him a "dumb n****r" on set and it's on tape, then It Doesn't Count. Maybe. But if he was willing to sandbag his own career over it, HE obviously thinks he's right and I support that. It takes guts to come out and say, "I think I was played dirty" when you KNOW for a fact you're crippling yourself permanently.

This is one of those cases where I'm more of a Big Picture Guy, I guess. I'm less interested in the minutiae and more in the fact that a guy murdered his own career on purpose while people outside the situation are saying "Nothing Happened". Well, obviously HE feels differently.

Anecdote to make a broad point: I once playfully patted a girl I was friends with on the butt. Back Then, it didn't mean anything, I did it all the time, most of my girl friends thought it was funny, they'd do it back, grab my junk, whatever. Teenage Horseplay. This one girl, though, saw it differently. To her, it was a huge violation. She didn't talk to me for weeks and stayed mad about it for a long, long time, and didn't tell me why she was mad for months, it was one of those "You ought'a know why" kinda things. When she told me, I thought she was being dumb and I told her so. She said I'd "assaulted" her, whereas from my angle it was just goofing around (and in truth, I barely touched her). To her, the fact that it was an uninvited violation of her personal space and she'd expected better of me was in and of itself enough. We eventually settled it, kind of, but it was a Whole Big Thing for a while.

Now, honestly? I STILL think she overreacted more than a little bit, given the context of the situation. BUT, in hindsight, I also realize that in that moment I was being incredibly dismissive about HER feelings about the entire ordeal. I was so hung up on "Oh, lighten the f*ck up" that I wasn't really hearing her out, and I'm pretty sure THAT more than the "offense" was why she was mad for so long. I still think I was right and she was wrong in how we handled it, BUT, I acknowledge that my own behavior in dealing with it was selfish and dismissive. She told me quite sincerely why she was upset and I doubled-down and made fun of her over it. That probably wasn't the best way to treat a friend.

Point being, everybody's got their own personal Line, and we don't necessarily have to agree with them but it's at the least worth hearing them when they say they were done wrong. It's kinda sh*tty to be dismissive and call them names over it. Especially if they feel SO strongly that they're Right that they're willing to take it to extreme ends - lose a job, end a friendship, etc.

Scott Hall used to have a saying whenever he'd walk away from someone he'd had a locker room conflict with. "I ain't even mad, man; HE thinks he's right. You can't argue with a guy who swears he's right, he ain't gonna hear it. So you just walk away."

I think there's wisdom in that. Whatever WE think, Ray Fisher, obviously, believes that he's Right. Since he felt so strongly about it he was willing to pauper himself, all I can say is I guess he must've been pretty mad. But I'm not gonna call him names or imply that he's lying, that's totally not my place.

Whatever he thinks happened cost him a lot of money, so if it was "nothing", well... I doubt anyone would do that, there's no sense in it. But I doubt we'll ever know.

To be blunt, I think that the "investigators" and a lot of the people commenting on the situation from the outside are using "If nobody called you a N****r then there was no 'abuse', so get over it" as their benchmark. Maybe, maybe not, maybe it's overt on their part and maybe it's subconscious, but that's what my gut says - and I have honestly seen people on other boards say as much; "Unless someone said THAT then there was no 'disrespect' or 'abuse'." So at least SOME people won't give Ray the time of day or benefit of the doubt without That Specifically. And I think that's a broad oversimplification of what constitutes "disrespect and abuse" and also pretty sh*tty. And it honestly seems like that's the only thing people will settle for before they accept that the guy MAY actually have a grievance.

And I admit, the more I see Things Like That being said (not here, thankfully), the more willing I am to give the guy a break. There's a WHOLE lot of levels of "abuse and disrespect" that fall way short of outright racial slurs but are nonetheless completely valid things to be upset over.

((Shrug))

[AquaParade]

I don't think it's our place to imply Ray is lying anymore than it is our place to automatically believe him without knowing the full story, or imply that Joss, Geoff, and Walter all commited heinous acts againt Ray.

I'd like to give Ray the benefit of the doubt, but not if the price is condemning three people with nothing but Ray's cryptic and elusive statements to go off of. We all know how treacherous a road that is to go down.

The other thing is, there is a lot of smoke around that fire. The mis-accusations regarding color correction, the retracted Forbes articles, the investigation that went nowhere. The months and months of "something happened, but I can't tell you. In the meantime, let's take these guys out. In the end, you'll see I was right." That is a smokey-ass stack if I ever saw one.

So, I'm not implying he's lying, I'm just not believing him with no evidence at the cost of three other people who have yet to be proven guilty or really accused of anything, aside from being harsh boss's.
That's how I always do things, generally speaking. The only time I'm willing to believe someone strictly off their word, in a situation that is two-sided, such as this, is when I know them very well or have a deep bond with them. Even then it could be considered irrational.

Regarding Fisher's career, I'll again say that I don't think this was as much of a sacrifice as it appears. Ray hasn't had much work at all since Justice League, and by the time he started this campaign, he didn't really have much to lose. And even that is secondary to the fact that we are in the "me too" era. How can we not acknowledge that when looking at this situation? Have we not all seen the trend going on in Hollywood and the way many have faked or exaggerated their hardships in order to be lifted up and made into a symbol of hope & recovery? This was a gamble, but it could have paid off for Ray.

That Scott Hall quote is really great. It's such an important perspective to have that is all too easily lost for many of us, including myself.

[Leo656]

I mean, that's all well and fair.

Personally, when The Other Side is WB, and especially Joss Whedon and Geoff Johns... well, whoever is on the opposite side of Them is usually The Good Guy. Those two guys, specifically, are Proven Hacks at best, smug assholes at worst. And I openly confess, it would take a LOT for me to side with them on just about anything. So if I HAVE to pick a side - and I guess I really don't have to, but it's hard for me to have NO opinion on a subject - I'm just plain not picking theirs. Can't do it.

So I admit, I have an inherent bias but I do my best to own it.

And I actually don't think there was ever a "payoff" in the cards for Ray Fisher. I don't even think he expected one. The squeaky wheel gets replaced, even a child knows that. What was he ever going to get out of this besides satisfaction? A financial settlement? Not likely, and if he did it would be a pittance compared to whatever he'd make if he could remain a Hollywood actor. As is, he might as well end up parking cars after all this. He had to have known that was the only conclusion. I just find it hard to believe he'd expect any different. He doesn't strike me as ignorant. Difficult, maybe, but not ignorant. Someone certainly said to him, more than once, "If you do this, you'll be washing dishes for a living for the rest of your life." So yeah, I don't know. He doesn't seem that dumb, to me, to think there'd be any sort of "payoff".

I don't know, I think it's like all those women who accused Danny Masterson of rape, and the only possible "reward" was in seeing people who did wrong get their comeuppance. But again, that's what my gut says to me.

It's a fair point about manipulative disinformation on the MeToo Era, though. I mean, Jussie Smollet really didn't get penalized too much for the nonsense he pulled, for example. But he comes off as super-shady anyway. Ray Fisher, to me, does not. So I don't know. Like I said, we'll probably never know.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Leo, it's not about people "wanting dirt" on John's, Hamada, and Wheson, It's about evidence. I don't want to live in a world where providing proof of someone's poor actions is considered "dirt". If you are going to ask the entire world to condemn someone with you, you need more than just vague accusations - You don't agree with that? Sure, maybe some assholes slide by, but it's called having a system. And the system we currently have makes Ray look very suspect. I wouldn't want to say "boo-yah" either, but when you sign a contract, take the job, and start spending the money, you do what the boss says. And yeah, it may suck and feel creatively void, but it certainly doesn't justify what we have here.

A few extra reminders that give context to this scenario:

- Forbes had to retract statements given by Fisher once they turned out to be unsubstantiated
- WB did an investigation and found no reason to back Fisher. Ray even stopped the initial investigation to make sure it was handled by someone he wanted. It still turned out useless for him.
- Ray Fisher went on hearsay to accuse Whedon of color correcting people, but turns out it wasn't even done by him and many have backed it as a typical editing/coloring technique. Whoops. Prob shouldn't go off hearsay, Ray.

If you want an easy story to get enraged about, this is a great choice. I find that if you look deeper, there are cracks everywhere. That's why his ship is sinking in an era where being victimized is a freaked golden ticket. Fishet went for this but his execution was terrible and now he has nothing.

I agree wholeheartedly with Aqua here. I understand that there are potentially huge legal consequences to providing specific accounts and evidence of things that happened.

BUT, I don't want to sit in Fisher's camp and endorse him with what little we've been given.

However, Leo, you also make excellent points, chief among them that Fisher is doing this AGAINST his career. He's not doing it to catapult himself to greater money and jobs; he seems very obviously to NOT be trying to pull a Jesse Smollet here. Smollett thought he'd make it to the next level up with what he pulled. Fisher is doing this knowing he's sinking his own ship. Which is either incredibly shortsighted of him, or he's fighting a cause he believes to be just.

[Leo656]

I think it's delightfully serendipitous that we both cited Jussie Smollet at the Exact Same Time. Even though only ONE of us bothered to spell his name right.

Also, what an asshole THAT guy is. But I guess that's to be expected. Who the f*ck calls themselves "Jussie"? I mean really.

It's almost as dumb a name as "Joss".

Y'know what? F*ck it. F*ck both of them, they're "Jessie" and "Josh" because I f*cking say so. Pompous poncy twats with their stupid Frenchie names. This is AMERICA, dammit!

[AquaParade]

I guess I'm not convinced that Ray has nothing to gain here. Maybe I'm missing a piece, but this controversy has probably been the most attention Ray Fisher has had in his entire career. I think the reason it looks like he is sinking his career is because it was executed to poorly. I'm not trying to press anyone, but that's just how I feel about that.

[Leo656]

But like, to WHAT endgame, is my point. "This guy went on a rant about how much his bosses sucked... WE should hire this guy!" That wasn't gonna happen. Nobody would ever think it would. Especially not him. I'm sure he had jobs before he was an actor, he knows you can't do that.

Attention? Everybody hates the guy and thinks he's a whiner. He had to have expected that, as well. He has an agent and a publicist. He's not a big enough star to have Yes Men. SOMEONE told him how this was going to end, very likely often and loudly.

I don't know. The only way I see "Ray Fisher expects Big Things in his future after All This" is if Ray Fisher is really, really, really, REALLY dumb. And for whatever reason I just don't think that he is. He doesn't come off as dumb. Emotional and shortsighted, perhaps... but dumb? We're talking Brick Stupid, here, if he EVER thought he'd come out of this looking like a Champ. "Bojack Horseman" stupid, even. And even Bojack had people telling him "Dude, this isn't gonna go well."

So... yeah, I don't know. I don't buy it. He'd have to be Lead Paint Stupid and I just don't think he is. But then I never met the guy.

There was NEVER any "Not-Poorly" way to execute such a "scheme". You cannot say "My bosses sucked, but I can't tell you why" and expect to 1. Ever work again, and 2. Have people in our TMZ-obsessed "Dish the Dirt, Name the Names!" culture give you the benefit of the doubt. Again, these are things a child knows. "Executed poorly"? There was never any RIGHT way to do it. Zero. It was never gonna end well for him. And people HAD to have told him so.

[AquaParade]

That's logical. But I can't help but think of the countless other popular Hollywood Victims of the last 3-4 years and how their careers have been boosted.

[Leo656]

Most of them were women, though, weren't they? Standards are entirely different for women than for men. Women get rewarded for lying all the time because if you don't believe a woman you're an insensitive asshole by default. You HAVE to believe women or else you're sacrificing your own future viability. It doesn't work that way when a man airs a grievance; he needs detailed records and three forms of ID or else it didn't happen. Sure, sometimes you get a Smollet, but he didn't do himself any favors, either. But if Leslie Jones or someone pulled the exact same scam Smollet did, she would absolutely have gotten away with it because nobody would have even investigated it, they'd have just taken her by her word.

I don't know. I mean, I guess. Anything is certainly possible. Again, whenever Stuff Happens, my gut tells me how I should feel about it and in the end it's usually right. My gut tells me this time the guy's not lying and just isn't "allowed" to say too much. But I don't know. Wasn't there! Just going by what my gut says.

Could always be gas. But I'unno.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Leo, it's not about people "wanting dirt" on John's, Hamada, and Wheson, It's about evidence. I don't want to live in a world where providing proof of someone's poor actions is considered "dirt". If you are going to ask the entire world to condemn someone with you, you need more than just vague accusations - You don't agree with that? Sure, maybe some assholes slide by, but it's called having a system. And the system we currently have makes Ray look very suspect. I wouldn't want to say "boo-yah" either, but when you sign a contract, take the job, and start spending the money, you do what the boss says. And yeah, it may suck and feel creatively void, but it certainly doesn't justify what we have here.

A few extra reminders that give context to this scenario:

- Forbes had to retract statements given by Fisher once they turned out to be unsubstantiated
- WB did an investigation and found no reason to back Fisher. Ray even stopped the initial investigation to make sure it was handled by someone he wanted. It still turned out useless for him.
- Ray Fisher went on hearsay to accuse Whedon of color correcting people, but turns out it wasn't even done by him and many have backed it as a typical editing/coloring technique. Whoops. Prob shouldn't go off hearsay, Ray.

If you want an easy story to get enraged about, this is a great choice. I find that if you look deeper, there are cracks everywhere. That's why his ship is sinking in an era where being victimized is a freaked golden ticket. Fishet went for this but his execution was terrible and now he has nothing.

This sums it up too. And this is why I hate, hate, hate the guilt by accusation culture we live in.

It's simply a lie for vengeance stemming from an individuals personal psychology.

[ZariusTwo]

Razzie nominations


Worst Remake/Sequel and Kristen Wigg for worst supporting actress

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/wonde...n-wiig-a183129