Governors sending illegal immigrants to sanctuary cities

[ChosenOne]

You misunderstand, I'm not saying you're wrong - even though conservative doesn't necessarily mean religious, myself being an atheist - but that it's ludicrous, or at least bizarre, to consistently bring up religion when no one else here does or uses that argument. Not that I've seen. You sound like you're tilting at a very particular windmill that pisses you off. It's entirely your prerogative, of course, but it's odd. Just... Odd. These are not the nerds you're looking for.

Also, seriously? Portugal hasn't been anything like that old stereotype since at least ten years before I was born. I can guarantee you any one single state in the South is more religious today than my entire country has been in the last four decades combined. Come visit if you like, see for yourself. (Yes, I do have rooms for rent, why do you ask?)

[Andrew NDB]

Let's do a little tally of the "bad" things each party is up to.

Democrat Party: Indoctrinating kids in schools into controversial alternative lifestyles. Normalizing things like drag queens to very young kids and wanting to parade them in front of them (in multiple states now). Bringing forth efforts to allow and even encourage confused pre-16 year olds to get their breasts carved off, onto hormones and puberty blockers (this is already happening) and then taking kids away from parents who aren't cool with that. Reducing standards in school testing so that failing students get pushed through prematurely. The resurrection of affirmative action in ESG-based programs, giving opportunities and career paths to people based on their skin color, not any kind of merit. Pushing Critical Race Theory being taught in schools. Radically going after the 2nd Amendment. Very interested in getting "hate speech" into legislation so that they can readily circumvent the 1st Amendment. The stranding thousands of Americans in Afghanistan, which indirectly gave Putin the only encouragement he needed to begin the Ukraine invasion (basically, surrendering in one "war" and creating another one). Attempting to use power they didn't have to mandate vaccines that don't do what they say they do (I'm not saying they don't work at all). Trying to bend the world to its will by controlling the language (this is how you arrive at things like "latinx" and how "sexual reassignment surgery" quietly became "gender confirmation surgery," to name just one example). The weaponization of the arts and intentional misrepresentation (over-representation) of racial groups and LGBTQ in films, TV, comics, video games with a clear redirection from an emphasis on story or character to "identity" (and creating an incentive structure around that). Shrinking the military even as we have an increasing bullseye on our heads. Reducing standards in the military to allow for 90 pound women to do the same roles as 200 pound men on the battlefield. Pushing green policies that don't make any sense and punish people with measures that won't actually make any meaningful difference in environmental conditions. Removing the country's self-reliance in getting oil. Openly taking measures to defund the police, with an undercurrent of actually wanting to abolish the police. Going soft on criminals, letting repeat offenders back onto the streets who keep getting thrown back in over and over again (even murderers being let out and going back to murdering). Pursuing a continuance of pre-COVID special, emergency voting regulations despite nobody and no group saying they had any problem getting their vote in without it. Allowing and encouraging the BLM riots, calling for the bailout of the criminals in the crime wave that ensued. Actively inciting a race war by insisting systemic racism exists and is prevalent in everything in the country, thereby dividing the country in a way not seen in decades. A blatantly open borders policy, allowing illegal immigrants into the country by a rate of about 10,000 per day.

Republican Party: OK, sure, they went after abortion on a federal level and that's dumb. Yes, occasionally there are Republican leaders who talk about God when they shouldn't.

I in no way see how it's remotely close. Democrats are directly and implicitly harming society on just about every level, right now. Not hypothetically, not maybe in the future. Right now and clearly, plainly for all to see.

[Leo656]

Put simply, in the United States the most outspokenly "conservative" people are also the most devoutly Bible-thumping. It's nearly 1:1. You're not from here, Chosen, so perhaps it's not something you're as strongly aware of. This is why "conservatives" and "religious nuts" get lumped together so easily and frequently. They really are one and the same almost always, over here.

You don't find too many people in this country screaming "KILL THE GAYS!" unless they're wearing a crucifix, for example. Or talking about how "women should just keep their legs crossed" or who can and can't get married or whether mixed-race couples are immoral or who a bakery Can and Can't deny service to. Those aren't just "conservative viewpoints", in America they are OVERWHELMINGLY "Conservative Christian Viewpoints". Agnostic Conservatives - and they do exist - typically don't care about ANY of those things, and are "conservative" for tax- and immigration-related reasons. Most Republicans I know in Real Life? ALL they care about is tax rates and curbing illegal immigration because that is an economic issue as well even if people spin it as a social one. But the "fire and brimstone" Republicans are LOUD, and they present the impression that there are no "moderate conservatives". The ultra-religious ones make ALL of them look bad, because they're absolute nutbars.

And it becomes an issue because the Devout can't leave the Agnostic be. They just can't. Even within my own family, it's mostly Catholic, but "shades" of Catholic. On my mother's side, it's mostly people who vote Democrat, but they're also Catholic. On my father's side? "You CAN'T be a Catholic and a Democrat, you simply can't! It's forbidden! You're going to Hell!" So it becomes an issue even between people who share the same general religious beliefs.

Put simply, if a person is going on a forum or a comments section and repeatedly screaming "Keep your disgusting gay lifestyle to yourself", they're 100% wearing a crucifix. If they care more about keeping women from getting abortions than they do keeping guns out of schools, they're always carrying a Bible. Otherwise, they'd just nod and keep their opinion to themselves, OR say it once and move on. The ones who get on the "YOU SICK PEDO PIG YOU'RE GONNA BURN IN HELL FOR BEING GAY ALL HAIL KING TRUMP" rants and make it a full-time job are Religious Whackos 100% of the time.

Mileage may vary in other parts of the world. I don't live there, I live Here. Google fills me in on the rest but I admit Google-Fu is not a precise science. In the good ol' USA, though, "conservative" in the general sense really does imply "Bible-thumper". If for no other reason than they are the most aggressive sub-section of the party. They have the numbers and are also the most vocal. Those are simply facts.
-----------------------

Andrew, you care more about keeping gay/trans people away from small children than about keeping speeding bullets away from small children. Forgive me, while I share your general feelings about the subject of Drag Queen Story Hour and "trans sex ed for kids" that is in NO way comparable and in no way "doing more harm to more people" than subjecting pregnant women to police investigations and banning contraceptives and outlawing gay marriage. And the Religious Right DOES want those things to happen and is also taking steps to ensure that it happens.

They also lied about "letting the states decide" about "certain issues", because once "the states" voted the way the Republican politicians did not want them too, NOW they say "It's too big an issue, we can't allow them to vote, we're just going to tell you how it is and then you deal with it."

So, they lied. "States Rights" is bullsh*t anyway on its face, but they absolutely lied. That was just some sh*t they said to buy time until they could amass enough power to enforce their policy on a federal level. That was always the endgame, don't pretend otherwise. They never had ANY intention of letting the citizens of those states vote on that or ANY issue they felt might not go the way they wanted.

It's like Carlin said: "If voting mattered, they'd never let us do it." Well, now that they know how people would actually vote if left up to them, suddenly the Republicans don't want to let them vote. How convenient.

You're also ignoring that I pointed out earlier, according to polls most voting Democrats don't want gay/trans sex ed for young kids, either. It is ONLY the most extreme and crazy people who want that, and most Democrat voters agree that's too far. Just like most voting Republicans think we ought to have stricter background checks for people who buy guns, for example.

You keep saying "The Left" and "The Right" as if either side is a hivemind. They're not. I admit I do my fair share of generalizing but I'm actually trying to have a serious conversation right now and the fact is most people who actually vote don't agree with the more extreme positions on either side of the aisle.

I also wanna know, sincerely, why gay/trans stuff is your Hot Button. Like it's the ONLY political thing I see you get SO fired up about. You say it's just about "young kids in school" but I've known you long enough to have seen you say enough to suggest you just really don't like those people, period. Not trying to put you on the spot or anything, just saying, I notice this is SUPER important to you and I have questions. I sincerely think there are much bigger issues going on in the world than that. And I say that while mostly agreeing with you on the matter as relates to schools. I'm just saying I think for you it's a much deeper issue, based on how you present.

[ChosenOne]

Half my family's American. Way to assume.

This isn't the 1950s anymore. Just as many conservatives aren't religious as those who are. And they're entirely capable of arguing against abortion without ever once quoting the Bible or whatever stereotype you subscribe to, like I have, while also being responsible enough to argue in favor of and use contraception, like I do. You're just biased and/or conditioned to only hear the vocal minority spewing their inane beliefs.

[Leo656]

And I have family in Ireland and Poland, I don't pretend to know sh*t about what happens over there just because I get a postcard or a FB message.

Put simply, if your feet aren't the ones on the ground, you can Assume what goes on in a place but you don't Know.

Believe me, I hear more about "What NJ is like" from people who have never been here and never will. You don't know dick about a place unless you physically exist in that place.

[IndigoErth]

Most western countries look at their conservatives then at our conservatives and be like...

Originally Posted by Leo656

because they're absolute nutbars.

Spoiler:

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Leo656

And I have family in Ireland and Poland, I don't pretend to know sh*t about what happens over there just because I get a postcard or a FB message.

Put simply, if your feet aren't the ones on the ground, you can Assume what goes on in a place but you don't Know.

Believe me, I hear more about "What NJ is like" from people who have never been here and never will. You don't know dick about a place unless you physically exist in that place.

Sigh... I'm starting to figure you out. Man, what a letdown. Never meet your heroes, they say.

Tilt away at those windmills, sir knight. Tilt away.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Most western countries look at their conservatives then at our conservatives and be like...

Except Italy, they're about to elect Female Hitler apparently. Like literally.

That's why you have to cut the nuts off this sh*t before it festers and the rot spreads. Same rhetoric. "Evil foreigners" and "ungodly values" and "immoral wickedness" and "We Are The Righteous" and blah blah blah. Next thing you know your political "leaders" are outspokenly being racist and your party members are saying Hitler had the right idea (this refers to someone in the Italian conservative party who was very recently removed for saying exactly that, but their name escapes me right now).

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

Sigh... I'm starting to figure you out. Man, what a letdown. Never meet your heroes, they say.

Tilt away at those windmills, sir knight. Tilt away.

I "figured you out" a while ago. I was your "hero" when I was making jokes at trans peoples' expense and being outspoken about how sh*tty Campbell's writing is. That was it and that was all. You "liked" me because I was/am outspokenly "insensitive" to trans people and you found it amusing.

My views on that topic haven't changed, incidentally. BUT. I will forevermore be suspicious of anyone who immediately sends me a Friend request for Those Reasons. If someone ever sends me a Request within 5 seconds of me saying "A guy in a dress still isn't a woman", I now know enough to ignore it because those people find me amusing for ALL the wrong reasons and I don't want their support.

You weren't the only one, though.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Except Italy, they're about to elect Female Hitler apparently. Like literally.

That's why you have to cut the nuts off this sh*t before it festers and the rot spreads. Same rhetoric. "Evil foreigners" and "ungodly values" and "immoral wickedness" and "We Are The Righteous" and blah blah blah. Next thing you know your political "leaders" are outspokenly being racist and your party members are saying Hitler had the right idea (this refers to someone in the Italian conservative party who was very recently removed for saying exactly that, but their name escapes me right now).

Eek! Guess we next get to watch Italy play this game...

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I "figured you out" a while ago. I was your "hero" when I was making jokes at trans peoples' expense and being outspoken about how sh*tty Campbell's writing is. That was it and that was all. You "liked" me because I was/am outspokenly "insensitive" to trans people and you found it amusing.

My views on that topic haven't changed, incidentally. BUT. I will forevermore be suspicious of anyone who immediately sends me a Friend request for Those Reasons. If someone ever sends me a Request within 5 seconds of me saying "A guy in a dress still isn't a woman", I now know enough to ignore it because those people find me amusing for ALL the wrong reasons and I don't want their support.

You weren't the only one, though.

Back then I found your antics amusing, like a pet or a court jester. Sadly the edginess and abrasiveness is all you have.

[Leo656]

Those were the only posts you ever even commented on. C'mon. You found my "transphobia" amusing and then you discovered we actually have very little in common otherwise.

That's 100% on you, buddy! I'unno what else to tell ya.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Those were the only posts you ever even commented on. C'mon. You found my "transphobia" amusing and then you discovered we actually have very little in common otherwise.

That's 100% on you, buddy! I'unno what else to tell ya.

No, I found your wit amusing. That said wit was only ever brought out by transphobic remarks is on you. It was never my expectation that we be a perfect match in every aspect, is that a requirement for two people to interact? Were you hoping I'd propose to you or something? So weird.

[ChosenOne]

And you're missing my point tonight entirely. I even agree with you regarding religion, all I said is that maybe you should save that counterpoint for when someone brings up, y'know, the point. Not an ureasonable suggestion, methinks.

[Cowabung-Gal]

“I think that I am familiar with the fact that you are going to ignore this particular problem until it swims up and bites you in the @$$!”

It’s like that time when Jenny Durkan sang about how great and wonderful the “Summer Of Love” was…then she changed her tune after all that “love” suddenly showed up in front of her house.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

And you're missing my point tonight entirely. I even agree with you regarding religion, all I said is that maybe you should save that counterpoint for when someone brings up, y'know, the point. Not an ureasonable suggestion, methinks.

No, that isn't how I like to operate. I always cast a wide net on purpose and if you paid attention you'd realize that. It's the same reason I preemptively shut down people's nonsense counterpoints before they even bring them up; it saves time. Regardless of topic, when I speak I've already considered the opposing opinion and discarded it as being without merit. If I bring it up and tear it apart before they get a chance to bring it up, it's simply more efficient that way.

And to reiterate my point that you're SO hung up on: Most bigots are religious, man. Or at least, they like to hide behind religion as an excuse to hate and oppress women, non-whites, and gay people. You apparently like to hold yourself up as an example of how people can still be bigoted but not have a religious crutch. Okay? You're still outnumbered. I didn't make the rules, I just report. Congratulations on your hatred of women and not-straight people despite apparently not being a cult member. It's still a sh*tty way to be, and you're still a statistical minority because Most Bigots Are In Fact Religious Conservatives.

I have 1% more respect for you because your bigotry is at least honest and you don't pretend "God" told you to feel that way. That does not change the fact that that's the line MOST people who hold those views like to hide behind, sorry. "I don't hate gays/minorities/women, but GOD is pretty clear about it and I try not to make him mad!" That's what most of them say. You have the same internet I do, click around and see it for yourself. Or better yet, take a plane to the Carolinas and see/hear it out loud in real time.

I mean, religious people didn't necessarily invent being a closed-minded bigoted asshole. But they definitely perfected it and make it a point to get the most practice at it. Whattya want me to do, lie? Nah.

[ChosenOne]

Once again, way to assume something about me that's just not true. You'll forgive me if I don't go detail about what it was, but I genuinely chuckled. You always think you know people, huh? Must be nice to feel so righteous.

And you seem to equate being conservative with being a bigot. Ironically, that makes you the bigot.

So you lay down your views preemptively. Okay. But what if the people who need that verbal smacking don't happen to read it equally ahead of time? Therein lies the snag.

[Andrew NDB]

Let me try this another way.

Me? What do I care about, and what have I cared about most in the day-to-day mostly my whole childhood into adult life? The answer is entertainment. Comics. Movies. TV shows. Video games. Also, the dream that I might one day be in that pool of people making that stuff. Maybe a little too much? Sure. Guilty as charged.

Still with me? Now, who are the people firmly within the party that has co-opted and controls whole swaths of that, contorting it into ridiculous shells of its former self in the name of "progressive" movements and made up identity politics?

Now, also me. As a parent (and I do cringe a little even saying that, as the CDC lady did that a year ago with "as a mother, I have a bad feeling mass deaths are going to happen" and she was, of course, wrong... but this isn't about feelings) I understand this component is alien to people who aren't interested in being parents. Who are the people trying to warp kids and take away kids from parents not OK with the latest week's currently pushed agenda?

The Democrat party. And while I have strong feelings about illegal immigration (particularly as a direct byproduct of that my mother being processed legally and correctly after much strife from Colombia), defunding of police, showing weakness worldwide and causing new wars as a result, and most especially the Democrat party trying their best to split the country in two racially and otherwise/othering anyone who doesn't agree with their radical agenda... those are the two big ones for me. Now it's too close to home, for me. Republicans want to save potential lives via stopping abortions? Personally I say snuff them out, if the parents don't want to be parents. Best thing that could happen to those potential lives. But I don't care. All I say is, at least their cause makes logical sense and is coming from a genuinely good place. Is saving a perceived life a bad thing, as a cause? Compared to drag queen hour? What are you talking about? Everything I see emanating from the Democrat side is coming from some sick patch of narcissism.

To circle back? Guess what I have now the least interest in being involved in, after chasing an entertainment career since about the 4th grade? Entertainment. The Democrat party has scorched the earth there. Salted it. Made it radioactive until a hypothetical new generation makes it not. It's sad. Not in a "Feel sorry for me" sad, but in general, for the people I'm sure were of generally like minds that just wanted to make the best stories to entertain people and hone their craft. Because that's the fun part. But the fun has been completely removed from the entertainment industry unless you are independently wealthy. I used to dream about working at DC or Marvel! Now, as a result of the Democrat party and their influence... guess how much I'm interested in working there? None! I know, big surprise. Because I'd get maybe two issues into writing Superman or Batman before someone tweets a post from me on the Technodrome anytime from 200X to now and I'm done for. Or they don't do that and I'm prodded to add this or that into the mix to maintain proper ESG quotas. Meanwhile I'm getting sticky notes about ESG and I'd just as soon go drive a truck and make $35 an hour if that's the case.

This sh** is coming from one side and one side only. And if you want to make it about religion then those guys at least have real values even if some of them are wrong on their face. You can disagree with them. You can vote against them. But at least they are actual values coming from a true and honest place, despite what we can say about this religious institution or the other. What or where are the values of the Democrats coming from, exactly? That's what I want explained to me. And not with a hand wave and "oh, well all politicians and parties are the same blah blah." Honestly, I really wish I was religious with what's going on. I envy those guys, even. Must be nice, though maybe not so nice with how they're being attacked worse than those who are actually doing the real damage.

[Mayhem]

I'll just throw in the note that the people who are white supremasists tend to be the least supreme beings...

As for left versus right, we don't see that hugely here, mostly because religion doesn't influence policy that much, compared to the US whereas it's the beacon of all things. Even though in my experience, and other people I know who are religious but not followers of organised churches, that the most loud Christians bashing the book tend to be the ones least following the teaching. As soon as you point that out, they start screeching you've called them out on their hypocracy...

Originally Posted by Leo656

That's very interesting if true, as Over Here they teach you the opposite. From pretty much First Grade on, they teach in American History that the Church of England was oppressive and archaic and that more free-spirited people uprooted and came over here so they could be as religious or not as they felt like.

Much available to Google, but this short extract from the TV show QI (which does its utter best through detailed and comprehensive historial research to correct widely held misconceptions under the section heading of "General Ignorance") noted...

"The story of the American Pilgrim Fathers is a complete fabrication. They did not land on Plymouth Rock, but in Provincetown, Massachusetts; they did not sail on the Mayflower; and they did not flee from religious persecution. In fact, they wanted to carry out religious persecution, and create a country in which there could be no dissent from Puritanism. They hated the religious freedoms in England. In 1660 Puritans hanged a woman, Mary Dyer, for being a Quaker."

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

And you seem to equate being conservative with being a bigot. Ironically, that makes you the bigot.

Nope, only the ones who prove it out loud! My next-door neighbors on either side have giant "TRUMP" banners up (although the one keeps it hung in his garage out of respect for the neighbors who may not share his views). Good people, very friendly, well-liked by everyone on the block. One of them is Hispanic; our dogs "play" together through the fence. The other one gives rides on his 4-wheeler to the neighborhood kids in the Summertime.

I know for a fact not every conservative is a hateful asshole. But most of the ones who loudly thump their Bibles are. "Not all rectangles are squares, but all squares are rectangles" kinda thing.

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

You always think you know people, huh? Must be nice to feel so righteous.

When people tell me who they are I listen, yes.

And it feels GLORIOUS. My sense of self-importance has a lot to do with why I've barely aged a day in over 20 years.
----------------

Mayhem: I can believe it. We do have a tendency to gloss over the uncomfortable parts of our history over here, and that's nothing new. By coincidence in reading about a completely different topic last night I came across a few things that do strongly support what you're saying, for sure.

------------------

Andrew: The talking heads pushing "Drag Queen Story Hour" are nuts, yes, but as I keep pointing out, as of last week it appears at least 75% of registered voters - including Democrats - ALSO think that stuff is all nonsense. They don't want to vote for that. The problem is, they're being "forced" to choose between voting for THAT or voting for someone who wants to do Handmaid's Tale LARP.

Most voters are actually moderates. Most liberals are okay with gay/trans people existing but they don't want trans kids playing sports or sharing their locker rooms with their daughters. Most conservatives don't want books banned, they just want them moved to a more age-appropriate space in certain cases. Most people want COMPROMISE on these sorts of issues.

But "compromise" doesn't get people emotional enough to go vote. So you have both sides doing this Extreme Polarity sh*t where they take an issue to its most extreme conclusion even though almost nobody on the street agrees with those positions. So you have people who don't want to ban books, but vote Republican because at least the Republicans won't let people with penises in the girls' bathroom. And people who don't agree at all with Drag Queen Story Hour, but still vote Democrat because they have a daughter and want her to have options over her own medical care and decisions.

Put simply, most people who vote don't fall in lockstep with the party or the politicians, but they end up having one big issue that "forces" them to pick a side even if they find some other things their party espouses to be repugnant. Personally, it's why I don't vote at all.