Where is everyone?

[CyberCubed]

There was also more TMNT stuff to talk about awhile ago than now.

In the early 2000's we had Volume 4 and Tales, essentially the return of Mirage. The 4kids series started in 2003 and lasted 7 seasons followed by Turtles Forever, so there was a long time to discuss a new TMNT cartoon. Then of course the 4th movie in 2007. Also back then a lot of people were re-discovering the original cartoon through the DVD releases as well as catching up on old Mirage/Archie comics they missed out on when they were kids, so people were discussing both the new and old stuff at the same time.

In the early 2010's we had IDW start in 2011 and the Nick show in 2012, so again we had two new TMNT series to discuss and there was a lot of interest and excitement at the time. Stuff started to wane toward the end of the decade, obviously with the Nick show ending in 2017 and IDW even before the Sophie era had a lot of pacing issues getting to the big stories.

Then came the Michael Bay movies and Rise which both bombed with hardcore fans, and now IDW has been a mixed bag for the last 16 issues. So there is a lack of TMNT stuff to discuss.

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

You mean unlike (years) before that, when if someone disagrees... they just get banned? Well, at least it's people leaving of their own avail now.

Problem is, neither situation is good. In the past, people on both sides of a debate would often get banned, instead of just the real culprits. Now, the instigators stick around, while others get fed up with the antics and leave in disgust. Which makes it even worse for those who remain, or who join later. Because the entire environment becomes more and more hostile to anyone who disagrees on a topic. Which usually is the death of a forum, because then it's just a few angry souls who keep "uh-huh, yup" ing back and forth, with no new ideas or input. It kills any sort of real meaningful discourse. It happened with the Bay movies, where basically everyone who liked them or the concepts in them left. And with Rise, where most of the fans of that toon are gone now, too. (Didn't like it myself, but to each their own, I suppose.) And so on. Most of the fic writers have long since left, because of others openly deriding what they do. It's sad, but it's a trend that has slowly become worse over time.

[Andrew NDB]

So why did "everyone" leave, according to you?

Is it...

* People saying mean things about TMNT universes they like?

Or...

* Discussing views on things (politics?) opposite their own?

Leaving over the first one is stupid, unless a forum is only supposed to be an echo chamber (which is what you think it should avoid being, rightly so). Leaving over the second is also stupid, and for a number of reasons. #1, You don't want to post in a political thread? Don't. Avoid "Current Events" or whatever (or, you know, block whoever), #2, You're upset that there are largely only right-leaning voices left around here? OK. But your solution is to leave? Shouldn't the solution be to stay and "balance the scales"? Or do you think all of these people leaving just have so little conviction in their beliefs?

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

Problem is, neither situation is good. In the past, people on both sides of a debate would often get banned, instead of just the real culprits. Now, the instigators stick around, while others get fed up with the antics and leave in disgust. Which makes it even worse for those who remain, or who join later. Because the entire environment becomes more and more hostile to anyone who disagrees on a topic. Which usually is the death of a forum, because then it's just a few angry souls who keep "uh-huh, yup" ing back and forth, with no new ideas or input. It kills any sort of real meaningful discourse. It happened with the Bay movies, where basically everyone who liked them or the concepts in them left. And with Rise, where most of the fans of that toon are gone now, too. (Didn't like it myself, but to each their own, I suppose.) And so on. Most of the fic writers have long since left, because of others openly deriding what they do. It's sad, but it's a trend that has slowly become worse over time.

The "real culprits" are in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure because I've taken a position against you in the past that you consider me the bad guy; but by my perception "instigator" lies firmly with you. And the fact that we could in theory go back and forth about that point is living proof of true assessment. In your mind it would exonerate you, but label a guy like me for action. "Real culprits", minus a few occasions that everyone would agree on, is in the eye of the beholder.

[Leo656]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

It happened with the Bay movies, where basically everyone who liked them or the concepts in them left. And with Rise, where most of the fans of that toon are gone now, too. (Didn't like it myself, but to each their own, I suppose.)

In both of those cases, what actually happened was the people who took the "pro" position simply couldn't handle the fact that anyone disagreed with them. And eventually they cried all the way home to the safety of their echo chamber of choice.

I, personally, kept telling those people "It's fine if you like ______, but you have to accept the opinions of those who don't, especially if they can say 'Here's WHY I don't like ______'." Nobody was trying to shut down any conversation or shout anyone down. It's just that those plebeians could never offer anything to the discourse beyond "Well *I* like it! You guys are just a bunch of Big Meanies!" And eventually they went to go pout somewhere else.

Which is just naturally what happens when someone is out of their element and has nothing at all of substance to add to a conversation; they go seek out more of their own. In their case, Facebook, where the level of discourse around TMNT never gets any deeper than "TURTLE POWER, dudes! COWABUNGA!" and all of that jazz. And let's be honest, that's probably where those people belong. If they have nothing important to say and can't converse above the level of children, then they simply don't belong in the "deep end" of the conversation pool.

Nobody was forced out or bullied into leaving. They just didn't like being so far out of their element and being confronted with the fact that theirs was a minority opinion. Just like the IDW apologists right now. Same thing. They're perfectly welcome to stay and speak their piece. They just have a pathological inability to handle it whenever anyone says, "I Disagree, and Here's Why." They see all disagreement as "bullying" or "personal attacks". That's their own issue to sort out amongst themselves.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by MsMarvelDuckie

It happened with the Bay movies, where basically everyone who liked them or the concepts in them left

I recall taking a bit of a bollocking for liking a lot of Out of the Shadows, pretty rough considering this forum/site started out as a love letter to the FW show. It's not the greatest thing in the world, but it's exactly the movie I wanted to see around 1997 just as the old show was ending.

I certainty didn't let the backlash get to me. Still here, still defending the OT.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

I recall taking a bit of a bollocking for liking a lot of Out of the Shadows, pretty rough considering this forum/site started out as a love letter to the FW show. It's not the greatest thing in the world, but it's exactly the movie I wanted to see around 1997 just as the old show was ending.

I certainty didn't let the backlash get to me. Still here, still defending the OT.

Hey. Thats fair. Keep doing you. I dig it.

[ZariusTwo]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Hey. Thats fair. Keep doing you. I dig it.

Thanks. I do admit to getting more defensive than I should about the old show.

There's nothing wrong with preferring the more serious stuff get it's due, I feel sometimes though that the 'edgier' material having a strong presence in the mediums often gets taken for granted or overlooked because of the reach of the FW cartoon in the larger scheme. I think there's been very equal representation over the years, it's surprising so many react as if it doesn't click.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by ZariusTwo

Thanks. I do admit to getting more defensive than I should about the old show.

You probably weren't actually defensive about the "old show". You were probably defensive in proportion to the level of inexplicable attack you received for liking the old show.

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

The thing is since the mid 2010s, politics and political correctness has been inserted into every facet of entertainment (sports, music, movies, television, video games, etc). What used to be places of mental respites from the hardships and uncertainty of global, political and personal affairs, have now brought the tumultuous societal discourse into these products of entertainment, while demonizing those who oppose their political narrative.

This is a big factor as to why the forums have becoming increasingly political (on top of the already polarized political landscape), and also why more and more people are unsubscribing and quitting Big media entertainment since they can't get away from it.

Politics is EVERYWHERE. you can't discuss your favorite entertainment without bringing it up anymore. it's impossible since both are inexplicably linked for the time being.

Some people just get bored of the franchise....or feel it no longer is what it started out as. I'm getting to that point with star wars. I just don't care anymore and not just because I told that since I'm a straight white male they don't want my money.

Things are just getting nastier. and it's not because of trump. it's because of people's insane reaction to things like that that got us to this point. and it looks like it's only going to get worse when I thought it might get better after a time.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

it's because of people's insane reaction to things like that that got us to this point.

The people who you've described have always reacted that way. What really got us to this point is that the well-adjusted-part-of-society anted to give everyone some recognition in their voice. It was basically on the tolerance of the good people in the country that those insanely-reacting voices you mentioned were considered. And, ultimately and unfortunately, empowered. And this is what we get.

People will always have their voice, but sometimes you have to put the consideration away or you'll empower people who tear things down under the guise of whatever their phony justification is. They are disingenuous manipulators. Don't believe them.

This is also mostly why many of us have become brick walls here on the forums when these people come out of the woodwork. Zero tolerance for this nonsense anymore.

[frank_one]

Originally Posted by Vegita-San

Politics is EVERYWHERE.

Only in certain places and only if you want to see it. Here on the board? Yeah, it's full of politics. Every discussion tends to turn into politics at some point. It is quite unpleasant, especially for a non-american like me. It's annoying.

As for Turtles stuff, well, we fans are getting older. We have more important things to look after. Also there hasn't been interesting stuff around for a while and Mirage is not involved anymore. For older fans Mirage being involved was everything.

Add to all this the fact that today people has moved to other platforms like Facebook and who knows where else.

[Coola Yagami]

Yeah, I HATE modern day politics in anything other than the news. If I want politics, I'll watch the news. Stay the **** out of my entertainment unless it's made-up politics, like the way the government works in Star Wars, or the inner rankings within the Foot Clan or even the ranking of all the different kinds of deities in Dragonball. All that is ok, but I don't want real-life politics, I don't want 'do better' speeches, I don't want Static Shock getting his powers while he happened to be at a BLM rally, I don't want Trump expies as villains, I don't want pandering tokenizing race-swapped gender-swapped characters, I JUST DON'T WANT ANY OF THAT **** IN MY COMICS AND MOVIES.


Out of the Shadows was terrible. The OT was goofy but it had its charm, this movie had none of that. The only good part was anything with Bebop and Rocksteady, and they didn't even get a proper fight against the turtles.

And the scene with Mikey getting sad cause 'they see us like monsters' falls flat because they are ****ing CGI monsters. That only works if their designs were way better, like idk... maybe

[Meow]

This turns more and more into an interesting read, cool

At this point I'd like to know what you all define as "politics". I can of course think of a couple of things, but it should be clear to everyone what is actually discussed here.

[IMJ]

Originally Posted by Meow

This turns more and more into an interesting read, cool

At this point I'd like to know what you all define as "politics". I can of course think of a couple of things, but it should be clear to everyone what is actually discussed here.

If I can say anything about the "storming and norming" of this group it would be that every single person who has posted in this thread is very aware of what "politics" mean in the context of these boards.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Meow

At this point I'd like to know what you all define as "politics". I can of course think of a couple of things, but it should be clear to everyone what is actually discussed here.

Around here...? Simply put, literally anything that makes the Americans on either political side crap their pants. Be it actual politics or things people don't like and decided are political.

Everyone else outside of it is surprisingly patient not ever telling the U.S. people to stfu already. (Minus the couple or so that like to get involved for some reason despite not existing within these borders.)

[Meow]

Originally Posted by IMJ

If I can say anything about the "storming and norming" of this group it would be that every single person who has posted in this thread is very aware of what "politics" mean in the context of these boards.

Yeah, I noticed "performing" is sometimes hard to find around here, even though the potential is high enough.

For my question: I know what you are trying to say but when you say it is clear, it is not as we all have different assumptions of that word while nobody explained the context in detail yet. However, see below

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Around here...? Simply put, literally anything that makes the Americans on either political side crap their pants. Be it actual politics or things people don't like and decided are political.

Thanks for the edit. That's what I wanted to make clear. Frankly, but rightfully: If that's the case, then the actual problem lies somewhere else than in "it's always and everywhere about politics".

In example: To me it seems odd if someone would call me an idiot for not liking ananas pizza, however I wouldn't find it odd if someone would tell me to think of my actions in case I'd call that someone an idiot without further elaboration or any reasonable/appropriate relation. Replace ananas pizza with "Trump", "Michael Bay" or whatever topic seems suitable/applicable for your (the readers) understanding. Not sure if it's culture, character or being able and willing to rationally identify wether or not some statement or action requires "elevated response". Maybe it's that often we don't give others a chance, and ourselves neither. Maybe it's also the time we don't spend but instead rush things, pre-assuming/pre-judicing to cut the "timely costs". That question everyone has to find out on his/her own I guess. As a matter of fact however it's not a burden package to simply put onto someone else and yell "you", quickly tagging that person.

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

Everyone else outside of it is surprisingly patient not ever telling the U.S. people to stfu already. (Minus the couple or so that like to get involved for some reason despite not existing within these borders.)

No surprise. Regardless if US or non-US people - most people who join a place don't want to ramble it up and get the heat started. They want to look up information, read discussion, participate in discussions and perhaps also help building a legacy. And when it comes to "us" non-US people it's difficult to even follow the conversations beyond a line where the language barrier breaks in. Even if we are able to follow for the important parts, most of us aren't able to contribute to those difficult conversations in a way we could help de-escalating topics. And if we try to there's still a small taste of "hopefully this is correct/understandable english and does not sparkle another flame".

[IMJ]

The real truth is that people widely place their social-perceptions into "political" as well, which is a key part of the problem. Much of that is interpersonal psychology and truly political at all.

Many people often don't like to look at themselves. It's like labeling "someone else" the problem all the time instead of looking at what "you've" done. It's a personal issue, often. Also, this particular I.P. often tends to curate a homogenized fandom with occasional outliers... I'll leave it at that.

[Prowler]

I don't think that many people left lately.

A lot of the older guard leaving happened some years ago already. Those people got older and either lost interest in the turtles or now had less time to come here.

People leaving because of arguments with other users was more common several years ago due to getting fed up with a certain clique of users here. And that clique isn't even around anymore.

And, more importantly, this place gets the most activity whenever the turtles are back in the public eye again. It got a big influx of users around the time the Nick series and the Bay Turtles films came out. And since Rise didn't do so well and there's no new mainstream Turtle content around atm, makes sense the activity has dropped a bit lately.