New Ep Discussion: "Same As It Never Was"

[Machias Banshee]

What if you could peer into the future... what would you see?

Would you want to see your future? What would you be like? What about your family? Would you have children of your own? Would you be living happily into old age? Or would your life be chaotic, in shambles? Your family torn apart, your parents and siblings near death, destroyed..?


What will Donatello see? IS this an alternate reality? Or is this a taste of the future? The future is a result of the choices one makes. What could have been the choice that resulted in what he sees?

What if Leo had accepted Saki's offer?

What if the turtles had never come to the surface, never met April or Casey?

What if Saki had managed to expose the turtles to the world, making them look like an enemy?





While you cannot change your past, what if you could change the future?


What Donatello finds himself in is a grim picture of what Could be. His brothers mangled, missing. Could some of them have gone to Saki's side? Or decided it wasnt worth it, and left for secluded grounds? Or maybe they fought, and met a final defeat. What of their father? Is he alive? Or is he rotting in a prison, or being used in government testing?


The world has been taken over in an apocalyptic robot invasion, not unlike Terminator 2. Or Nazi Germany. The turtles have fought valiantly, suffering the slings and arrows of misfortune. The struggle to defeat Saki has become a struggle for survival. Unable to adapt (as they had been taught in their training), they must now hide away, their spirits and bodies broken. All hope seems lost..

...except for one turtle (or is it two?). The one who can go back to where he came from, and Stop this oblivion from coming true. Will they overcome? As in the Future Shark Trilogy*, will both present and future turtles together be able to defeat their strange foe?
Or will Saki put an end to our Donatello? What would happen, if Present day donatello was killed in this future land? How would it affect the outcome of Saki's rise to power? Would it help it, or hinder it? Or would it not change anything at all?


TIME WILL TELL....



STAY TUNED!


*Future Shark Trilogy is a short Comic arc of the Archies series. and if you'd like to see another strange Archies similarity, click here (uh.. ignore the one eyed alien guy). While this episode is not based on Image Nor Archies, it is quite fun to see the similarities..

[Machias Banshee]

*deep breath*

Ok.... I actually was able to get this episode, so I"m going to sit here and type while I watch it. Its hard watching it again tho...

The beginning is chilling to watch. The karai bot stepping on the skull gave that same feel as from watching the beginning of Terminator 2 for the first time. Seeing all the flying bots and the karai bots had a very... World War Two feel to it. Like Hitler had won or something...

Ultimate Draco's appearance is as annoying as ever, but they need to show a lil recap of how Don ended up where he did. Why Donatello was sent to the 'future' is beyond me..

I felt to sad for Don when he started called out to his family. His father, his brothers... you can hear the terror in his voice. The police coming after him felt very much like the Gestapo.

Mike's entrance into the show was quite interesting. You could See that they were very careful to show only his right arm working. Mike's voice and his look pretty good for him being about 50 years old. I really thought he was going to punch Don in the face for being gone for 30 years.

Seeing Splinter's Grave broke my heart. The music just makes you want to cry. And Donnie's reaction was Dead on. (gah, bad pun) Hearing how Yoshi used to bring him to the park, and how he wanted to be buried there just... made Splinter a lil more human to me. I just wanted to Hug Donnie when he dropped to his knees...

Angel and April in the headquarters. They did a good job of aging April. Its too bad we never see what Angel looks like. Again, its so sad to see another casualty in the war. I think Hun and Baxter was a Big shock to me. What a horrible punishment to be given....

Karai aged DANG well... . I hope my hair becomes silvery like that. And the shadow of Shredder's outfit looked like some deranged insect.

Again, the Music to me is what's Really making the atmosphere to the story. Its just so... dramatic and sad. Almost foreboding.

Leo and Raph's entrance. Raph's voice sounds just like when he was younger, just harsher. They've All been roughened by war and misery. I remember a comment Jo Dawn said yesterday about Leo looking like a guardian. Perhaps so, or perhaps they were giving a nod to the Matrix. I guess its inevitable for Raph to have one eye missing. I love the reunion of the turtles, seeing even the hard-hearted Raph smile made me feel a lil better while watching this episode.

At least we find out why they broke up back then. Poor Splinter....



Seeing Hun's desperation in trying to gain Shredder's approval, even After he'd tried to kill them 5 years ago, really shows the brainwashing and tortures that he had undergone all his life. Seeing Shredder just killing them like vermin under his foot... I thought that Hun and Baxter would react more than "Aw Crud", but I think they wanted death. After being miserable for so long.. it was a welcome relief.

The violence the comes next is what made watching the ep again and writing this review very difficult. Yeah, I know "Its just cartoon characters!" Well, you still feel for them.

Mike.... my god, I cried out when I saw him get sliced to death. I really think, of all the deaths, his was the most brutal.

Leo and Karai's fight.... I guess we find out her answer to Leo's question. He's really kicking her tail in, and I thought for a moment that he was going to kill her off. but because of that damned bot.... you dont see it, but she she obviously sliced the back of his neck...
And Raph.... my god.... he tried so hard to save his brother. But in the end he was gutted like a fish. I think the sadest thing there was seeing him crawling towards Leo, and then... they died hand in hand. No matter how much they were angry at each other, they were still brothers. the looks of agony on their faces.... oh this is hard to write...

Thank you April.

Donnie's final victory aka The Shredder gets vaporised. Its shocking to see how VIOLENT this episode was.

The only thing that bugs me is Don's final reaction to his brothers' death. I mean.. he just saw his brothers get slaughtered. But.. maybe it'll kick in to wherever they end up. Sometimes the mind tries to supress things, until they become too much.

It would be interesting to see what an effect this has on Donatello. he's been put through some of the most horrible stuff, the triceraton mind torturing device, getting ripped away from his family and ending up seeing what could be the future for him and his brothers. Can you imagine him telling his family this? He'll probably be hiding under his bed, curled up in a fetal position and sobbing uncontrollably for the next few days. Like that battle fatigue syndrome, where even the hardest toughest marine can break down into a trembling mass of terror.


All in all, this ep.... wow. Easily to become the most (in)famous of all the series. I was incorrect about a few things in my Teaser, but I think I got it right overall... I'm still shook up from watching it, and I saw it yesterday afternoon...

[jestergoblin]

Oh. My. God.

Incredible. Just incredible.

[Kazari]

This episode makes me hate Karai even more!!! Glad she died!!! She deserved it!!! *laughs* I FINALLY get Angry Don!!! *squeals* MY favorite episode in the entire series!!!!!


I just wish there was a preview for next weekend I am going to continue watching 4 kids just in case.

I saw a lot of Matrix references!! Plus Terminator!! but I give this episode 10 out of 10!!!

[Lioness-Goddess]

*mouth hangs open in shock* Did what I think just happened happen?

This episode was amazing. By far the darkest I have ever seen, but still amazing.

When I saw Mikey at the beginning...he sounded like Raph! I mean, granted, he would have to be 50 odd years old, so all the youthfulness would be gone. I wonder what compelled him to go back to the skull cap mask thingie. And Leo sounded a little older, Raph sounded the same.

Leo looks weird without his bandanna. Those glasses are too small for his head. And I wonder why he was wearing them, anyway. He obviously wasn't blind. Was he?

And Raph's face when he saw Donnie...I almost cried, that was so sweet!

Karai aged well...April, not so well. She looks odd without red hair.

The very beginning of the episode, right before the theme song, was creepy. I shivered just watching it.

Still...THEY DIED!!! HOW COULD THEY DIE??? I was almost in tears. And Mikey..."Donnie! Donnie, I'm- AHH!" He still looks up to his big brothers...and he had to die first! It's not fair! It's not!

Mikey's skull cap, and Leo carrying one sword...Next Mutation, anyone?

I think Don's gonna be extremely happy when he gets home and find his brothers all in one piece...and Mikey being innocent again. Did anyone notice that? Mike wasn't so innocent. Again, he'd be like 50 or something, but...it just wasn't Mikey.

Alright, that's all I can think of for now. And dark as it may be, this holds a spot as one of my favorite episodes.



Now what's gonna happen to Leo?

[Kazari]

LOL I don't know about Leo! I am watching 4 Kids still to hopefully SEE a preview. What do you mean Mikey not so innocent?

[PizzaPower]

man poor MICHANGELO!!!!! He's arm. IT looks like Mikey was taking it apon himself to protect the peoples. The beginning with mikey helping Donatello was just the best. Poor Casey. And Splinter. This episode is by far my favorite. I would like to see a lot more episodes like this. I did not like mikey dying or any of the other turtles. At least Shredder was finished. All that was left was poor April. *crys*

[Lioness-Goddess]

Originally Posted by Kazari

LOL I don't know about Leo! I am watching 4 Kids still to hopefully SEE a preview. What do you mean Mikey not so innocent?

Well let's see...

Shredder takes over the world, he gets his arm sliced off, Donatello's missing for 30 years, Raph and Leo hate each other and Casey and Splinter are dead.

I wouldn't be so happy go lucky either! It just seemed like Mikey had seen a lot of things he shouldn't have seen.

[Kazari]

yeah this is definitely one of my favorites this season if not for the entire series! I still am partial to Reality Check because i love Shellektro. I love the music in this episode as well.

[PizzaPower]

I wonder why Donatello never showed up. Where do you think Donatello has gone to? Is he dead like Casey and Splinter??

[Lioness-Goddess]

The music made me wanna cry...

When I saw Mikey for the first time I literally jumped off the couch and went, "GAH! ARM! GONE!"

Also, when Don was facing the Shredder and Shredder picked him up and they were face to face, I was going, "Bite him Donnie! Bite him! Bite him!"

...He should've bitten him...

As much as I liked this episode, I hope the next one is a little...happier. Like Mikey's.

[Kazari]

I have a feeling that it will be happy and the next Leo episode wont be. I just want to see the last leo ep because i am hoping to see things LOL. Yeah poor Mikey I saw some things mirroring Tiger's MNT Gaiden LOL

[PizzaPower]

and Raphaels. lol. I loved todays episode. Mikey's voice was sooo cool. He did not even mention super heroes!! ;-D

[Kazari]

That's so true...I am thinking about writing a fic about the future turtles before this ep occured. It looks interesting enough. I just have to finish writing this other fic I am working on LOL I hate being a writer..i keep getting all these ideas and i start on projects...not finish them and thnk on something else.

[TMNTGal]

Damn, I'm shocked. How'd they get away with all that?

April aged horribly. What the heck kind of rejuvenating cream is Karai using?! I mean wow! Karai is so damn cool, I like her but to betray Leo like that... very dishonorable. She deserved to die. Mikey's voice was such an improvement, sexy even. Shredder getting blown into oblivion was intensly creepy. Raph reaching for Leo, very emotional scene. Poor Donnie...having to witness so much horror. That really got to me.

[creativerealms82]

It seems that UD has sent the Turtles to different places in different ways, he claims to have power over time and space and sends Mikey to another reality, Raph to a far off planet, and Don to a possible future. Of course I might have planned these fates for the Turtle's before hand as we really don't know how long he has had the Scepter of time, due to time travel he could have had it for thousends of years training with it and looking for the perfect time to attack the Turtles.

Anyway I love episodes like this and so I loved this episode.

[PizzaPower]

me also. Karazi, please write your fic!!

[Kazari]

She deserved to die

YAY!! LOL

But yeah like I said earlier I saw 3 Matrix references:

1) Leo favors Morpheus with the outfit and glasses.
2) The Mech suit that Don wears.
3) at the end when Don goes "it's done." that's what the machine said when Neo died at the end of the Revolutions!

I think I am going to watch this episode a lot!!

Pizza Power, I will I will! LOL I am going to force myself to fnish my first fic and then ill start on it! I am getting a lot of ideas! I am basically going to use all the elements they talked about in today's episode.

[Aska_Badoura]

Wow. This show put me through the ringer. I apologize for the entirely-too-lengthy post, but I've had two days to come up with this, I needed to write all that. Made me feel better.

That last scene...

My mouth dropped open when the Shredder's foot came down at Hun and Baxter. They can't do that, can they?! Somebody pleeeez get them out of the way... "Aw, crud." Okay, semi-amusing to hear his signature curse, but hardly the best Last Words. Down goes the foot, with this awful sound effect. I'm cringing. I hope the kids don't really think this through in their imagination. I wish I hadn't. I'm suddenly reminded that, in my comparing this ep to Gargoyles' "Future Tense", somewhere in there it hadn't clicked with me that most of the main characters died in that story. If this show follows suit: ohhh, this is gonna hurt...

The 'bots are closing in on Mike, and I'm watching kinda nervously. Soon there's around eight of them, and he calls Donatello for help... Oh, no, they ARE going to, aren't they?! The scene goes to that black screen with the sword-slash effect and sound that always means someone-got-sliced-and-we-blacked-it-out-so-you-couldn't-see-it-cuz-it-was-icky. Only this time there's three or four slashes with an accompanying anguished scream. They did. I'm gaping like a fish, and I'm crying. This is just tragic, especially when Don sees, and yells, "Mikey! NO!!" Then they actually have the audacity to break for a commercial!! ACK! So I'm still sitting in this open-mouthed stupor as the ads roll by. I reacted like that when they had Leo behead the Shredder (LOL, then it remained open when he picked his head up and walked away with it; I had to sit and stare at the screen for a while). But I was also crying this time, since I'm a lot more attached to Mike than I am Saki (big duh). After a lot of impatient finger-drumming on my part (at least they gave me a few minutes to stop crying), the show's back, and they replay Don's grief-stricken call to his alternate-time-branch brother. Did we really need that twice? We cut back to see the 'bots surrounding Mike's body, then dispersing to attack the others. That was making me tearful again.

Donatello's my favorite Turtle. I understand how he thinks, how he feels, and how he solves problems (and likes to analyze things, hence this BOOK here that I've written, and this is condensed :p). But I was flabbergasted when he just LOSES IT when Mike dies. It actually scared me (Okay, Kazari liked it, but it really freaked me out :p). He practically flattens two of the Karai-bots in one strike as he moves the modified one he's controlling in range of the Shredder. He's shooting machine guns at him like some mindless... Rambo, or something, and yelling about how he's gonna pay for that if it's the last thing he does. Cliche, yes, but not for THIS character. I'm going "This is DONNIE?! What did you do to him?! Oh. Well, yes, all right, you DID kill his brother. That's a good reason to be kinduv out of it, I guess... but geez." I usually relate to him pretty well, but this was just alien. Vengeance is not a familiar concept to me. 'Course, I've never been in that sort of situation, either. There's a fun thought. At least the Shredder kicking him across the room snapped him out of it. (The animators did such a great job with Saki's lip curling in disgust, I had to chuckle for a moment. Lightened it up a bit. Barely.)

Oh gosh... I remember wondering if Karai was going to be in this ep. Now I wish I hadn't. That just hurt to watch. Right after Don, Leonardo's my next favorite. I understand his moral strength, his honesty, and his love for his family. (I was startled earlier in the episode when he was going to attack Raph. His patience must have been worn down to practically nothing over the years. Wow.) I'm a big fan of Karai for the same reasons. I really enjoy watching Karai and Leo's relationship, whether it's romantic or platonic or whatever... they have the potential to be best friends. They think so much alike, they understand each other so well. I think she likes and understands Leo more than she does Saki, even, and HE'S essentially her father. Remember earlier I was saying they better not do anything tragic in the last ep of this season when Saki meets whatever fate? This is exactly what I was talking about. This really hurt. At least this means it probably won't actually happen that way in 'our' timeline (please, no, I'd go nuts). The idea of her watching all of this unfold, seeing all the evil her father is doing, taking over the world, enslaving the Utroms, preparing to conquer the galaxy... I don't think she'd stand for all of that. I feel like if Donnie had landed just one time branch away, Karai would have been fighting on the Turtle's side, secretly at the very least. That's the weird thing about time tree systems. Sometimes you find a branch where someone's made a choice you wouldn't think they could make. Here, she's lived through these 30 years surrounded by the misery of the conquered. She's tired, she probably doesn't care if she lives or dies (she probably feels like she deserves death, in a way, for serving someone so wicked), but she feels it's her duty to protect Saki, even if she hates what he's done to her world.

She battles Leonardo (she's definitely been keeping in shape ), begging him to take his brothers and leave. She doesn't want to have to kill them, but he tells her to make a decision for once! She's been vacillating all this time, having had who-knows-how-many chances to leave her father and help her friends, and every time her sense of duty to the Shredder has prevented her from following her heart and her honor. So here it is, her last chance, and she screws it up one last time. One time branch away, she calls off the 'bots, and turns to fight alongside, rather than with, Leo. That was what I was waiting for... so I'm pretty surprised when she attacks again. He eventually tosses her away (she landing on her head, no less), and Leo flips his lost katana with his foot, catching it (in what feels like a surprisingly casual and flippant gesture for this horrible situation, but I guess it just looked that way, cuz he doesn't talk like that), and approaches Karai where she lies dazed. "I'm sorry, Karai. I never wanted it to be this way." His voice is very tired, and very sad. I'm crying again now. More, this time. I mean, Mike's death was sad, but it was impersonal; the 'bots don't think or feel. THIS is about friendship barred by duty. Besides, these are my second favorite characters here! :p He's still her friend, he still understands her, but he also understands her so well, he knows she'll cling to that duty to her master with her last breath. He raises his katana, and I'm all scrunched up in my seat. I can't believe he's gonna do this! Then that 'bot comes up behind him, and there's that black screen sword slash again. I'm going "oh nooo, he's toast, the 'bot got him". Great job on the script-writers' part; they fooled us. (although I think I would have preferred it if the 'bot got him. )

[Aska_Badoura]

I had to split this into two, I wrote so much... sorry!

We see he'd turned around and sliced the robot in half, and I'm instantly relieved. Good use of psychology on their part, even if I wanna brain them for it. The shock is always greater when the creative team lulls you into a false sense of relief just before they throw the complete opposite at you. Thanks, guys. :p I'm in the middle of this "oh good, it didn't get him, and he still hasn't gotten Karai, everything's fine so far," relief, when we see that Karai's up again, and Leo has his back turned... and I'm suddenly clamping my hands over my mouth as I see what's about to happen. I wondered why Leo turned his back on Karai for so long, especially without reason; he'd already destroyed the 'bot; now he was just standing there gazing at it (or at least in its direction if he's blind). It feels like he's giving her a chance to make her choice, like he did in "Rogue in the House". I'm still not sure if he's blind or not (it's credible that he could be; he's disciplined enough that he'd learn to use his other senses and fight just as well, even if he couldn't see. They were even trained in blind fighting, after all). If so, he may not have heard her approach, but I really don't think that's the case. So again, black-screen-slash, and I'm crying again. How could she possibly do that?! He's pretty much her best friend, for crying out loud! Back to 'reality', frontal shot of Leo as he stands unsteadily for a moment, with this terrible, pained wheeze/moan, then a shot from behind Karai as he slumps over, coat slashed. Guess the carapace wasn't much protection from a blow like that, is my fleeting thought... but ack! I can't believe she DID that! Okay, now I'm nearly sobbing. That's as bad as this show can get; that was the last straw. Or so I think. I feel so sorry for both of them, that they had to do that to each other, and angry that Karai obeyed duty instead of honor. "Forgive me.... Leonardo," she says in such a sorrowful voice. She says his name with reverence. Now THAT was the last straw. No, wait, I'm wrong...

Raph attacks Karai... He wasn't actually as angry as I expected him to be; more silently grim than raging angry. Huh; he reacted like I'd expect Don to react. Earlier, Don acted the way I thought Raph would have. Now what does that mean? That's pretty scary. Eventually she slashes at him and he doesn't react fast enough, but by now I'm sure we were all kind of expecting that. It hurts to see her do that to Raph, but not nearly so bad as it was to see Leo die that way (especially when he wasn't even fighting her at the time!), and not NEARLY so bad as when a dying Raph is crawling across the floor, "Leo! Leo..." with his last few breaths, and you finally see the awful, agonized look on Leo's face where he has fallen, and then Raph collapses next to him, arm reaching out, hand just touching his brother's. Yep, THIS is the last straw. Now I'm sobbing for real. Karai watches them with this stricken expression. She's really, really regretting this. I'm really, really regretting that I'm watching this show!!

April threatens Karai with her big ole gun. (In 'our' universe, she hasn't even met her yet, and she's calling her by name here, that feels kind weird). Karai does something that is tactically very stupid, ninja or not; she has a close-ranged sword, and she rushes at a lady standing halfway across the room with a bazooka in tow! I'm thinking at this point, she wants to die. I mean, you don't do that kind of thing unless you have a death wish, especially when you're as disciplined and level-headed as Karai. Well, of course it doesn't help your sanity when you've just killed your best friend and his brother. She had plenty of time to dodge and everything, but she just keeps running at April. She looks frightened at the last second, but that's a natural reaction even suicidals feel at the critical moment. I dunno, any of you guys think so too?

The rest of the episode was pretty rough, but all the deaths had already happened (I was half-expecting April to get killed too, but thankfully not), and I was pretty sure there wouldn't be any more, except Saki's (hopefully). Now that's when you start to wonder what happens to Don, and his native time-branch, if he dies here. Not good. But I was still sobbing about all the other shocks in the last five minutes or so, and I can't remember that part so well. I was again pretty surprised to see so much of Saki's death on-screen, but it wasn't quite as shocking as all that other stuff. Yeah, Don stopped the nightmare in this April's world, but the cost was terribly high. Ouch.

Fantastic work from all the voice actors. I was very impressed.