Just to be nice for once...

~~Leo656~~ · 09-04-2005, 05:12 PM

Okay, it seems like I'm getting a bit of a rep as a "Laird-hater" around here (rather than just someone who wishes Laird's "vision" of the TMNT was more in line with what fans want to see, but whatever), so I figure now's as good a time as any to list some things I really do like about the current TMNT product line and even good ol' P.L. himself.

-"The Forever War". It's gonna rock (and finally close the book on the Archie continuity for all us old TMNTA fans). 'Nuff said.

-Tales of the TMNT. A monthly TMNT book done right. In-continuity "flashback" stories dealing with "iconic" versions of the TMNT and Co. as we remember them. Books like this almost always come off well (Star Wars Tales, JLA Classified, etc.) because they can tell a lot of stories that a monthly "mainstream" book couldn't handle for various reasons.

-The new 'toon. Even though I haven't been able to catch all the eps as they air, I have all the DVDs and I never get past being blown away by the overall superior quality of this show, not just to the old show (which was honestly too different to even make anything but the most surface comparisons) but to almost any cartoon on TV right now except Justice League Unlimited.

-The CGI movie. Even though I'd prefer a live-action TMNT flick by far, I'm still psyched for this. I just hope the CGI will be good enough so as to enhance the story, not distract from it.

-Peter Laird's dedication. Even though I don't like everything about Volume 4, even though I wish he wasn't so flippant with fans who disagree with him, even though I still think the April revelation was pointless and stupid, and even though I think the story could be moving a bit faster (at least), I'll tell you what I do appreciate: I appreciate the fact that Peter Laird does care enough to continue publishing TMNT, despite the fact that he is losing money on the book, because A) he wants to, and B) because the fans want it. My concern has always been that if the book was better overall, then more people would read it, and maybe it would make money, and then the future of the book might be more secure, instead of us all just hoping the day never comes when Laird just gets bored and stops. But I respect the fact that Peter does do it his way, even if I don't like all of it. It takes courage and dedication to do that in today's market, something Laird obviously has, so, for that, kudos.

And to address something said in another thread, the reason I and others often compare TMNT to other, more "mainstream super-hero" comics is because, despite being independently published, TMNT as an overall property has far more in common with Superman, Batman, etc. than with Usagi and Flaming Carrot. Not as relates to content, but as far as the TMNT being a brand name recognized world-wide, something Usagi, etc. can't claim. Far more people are aware of the TMNT as a brand, and therefore their marketplace recognition should, for all intents and purposes, rival those "mainstream" characters, but that isn't the case, and that's what bugs me. Friends of mine tell me all the time that they don't buy TMNT, but would "if the art was better/if the story moved faster/if they didn't do that April thing", etc etc ad infinitum, and that's what's been bugging me. Remember, the man on the street doesn't even usually know that TMNT are an indy book, they only know that it's a huge property worth millions and they wonder why it's represented by a book like Volume 4. *That* is why they compare it to stuff like Superman and Batman instead of books like Flaming Carrot, which would seemingly be more in the same vein.

I'unno, I'm just sick of all the Hatorade being spilled around here, and people accusing me of writing non-existent nasty emails to Laird and Co. Seriously, how funny is that?

**Machias Banshee** · 09-04-2005, 05:17 PM

*gives gifts of Mangoes and brownies*

Good to see you back, Hun..

OA · 09-04-2005, 05:57 PM

Nicely said...i too find myself expressing disgreeable opinions about Volum 4, but for the all the above reasons you mentioned, I am overall a happy camper...

Space Lieutenant Josh · 09-04-2005, 11:07 PM

Yeah, I felt like that letter in 23 was a little too mean to be yours. As long as I've been reading your posts, you always radiated a certain degree of respect, and, with that, respectful criticism.

And another thing I gotta say, is it's always refreshing to see something like that.

Jaf · 09-06-2005, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leo656

And to address something said in another thread, the reason I and others often compare TMNT to other, more "mainstream super-hero" comics is because, despite being independently published, TMNT as an overall property has far more in common with Superman, Batman, etc. than with Usagi and Flaming Carrot. Not as relates to content, but as far as the TMNT being a brand name recognized world-wide, something Usagi, etc. can't claim. Far more people are aware of the TMNT as a brand, and therefore their marketplace recognition should, for all intents and purposes, rival those "mainstream" characters, but that isn't the case, and that's what bugs me. Friends of mine tell me all the time that they don't buy TMNT, but would "if the art was better/if the story moved faster/if they didn't do that April thing", etc etc ad infinitum, and that's what's been bugging me. Remember, the man on the street doesn't even usually know that TMNT are an indy book, they only know that it's a huge property worth millions and they wonder why it's represented by a book like Volume 4. *That* is why they compare it to stuff like Superman and Batman instead of books like Flaming Carrot, which would seemingly be more in the same vein.

A very good argumentation. We have to remember that TMNT, as a franchise, was supposed to have it's «mainstream» book with the DW series. That book, coming from what was, at the time, one of the biggest selling companies, was the one conceived to represent the TMNT franchise in the eyes of the man on the street, just as TMNT Adventures represented it in the '90s (and TMNTadv. WAS a mainstream sci-fi/fantastic/humor/action title, and I had a heck of a lot of fun reading it). Mirage couldn't know that DW was so badly managed and would collapse within a year. Now, should they change the whole tone of vol.4 because their mainstream title was cancelled? They never altered vol.1 and vol.2 under the market's pressure, the only concession given was the change to color. Granted, vol.1 & 2 had better sales, but never were best-sellers; the visibility of the whole franchise was boosting sales, but the Mirage book was still displayed in the indie/underground/pg13 rated section.
What both Laird and Eastman did with the huge amount of cash the TMNT brought in was, and still is, to publish the comics they like, their own or other's, through Mirage, Tundra, Heavy Metal, Zero Mayo, Xeric, etc.

It is true that the TMNT franchise, as a whole, is comparable to other superhero/action/adventure characters, but we shouldn't confuse the franchise and the vol.4 book. The situation reminds me of the UK Transformers fans; they always have a hard time explaining to the man on the street that what they love about it is a dark, ambitious s-f title, more reminiscent of Dr Who or Star Trek than the saturday morning show that bears the same name.

Now, I'm asking the question : why should the TMNT marketplace recognition grow bigger? Granted, many people would buy the TMNT comics if it was something else, but something else is what they can find in other titles. Is it just because, as fans, we selfishly want everything be painted green? I don't see the point in witnessing TMNT out-sell Spiderman or X-men. I won't go out on the street shouting Halleluhia just because every kid I encounter wears a TMNT cap. On one hand, Leo656's friends don't buy the TMNT book because it isn't what they expect; on the other hand, the reason why I convinced mine to read this book is exactlty the same : it is not what they were expecting from the TMNT, and they were happily surprised by this.

I think that the principal problem with the Mirage book is not that it's «too indie for the mainstream market», but that it has yet to reclaim back it's rightful place in the indie market, where it suffers from a «bad mainstream franchise» reputation. That's what I intended in another thread by saying that the TMNT were «on the edge». An indie property gone mainstream overnight (does the word «grunge» rings anybody a bell?) Hey, both Sakai and Burden tried to get their characters the big league treatment : the proposed Space Usagi cartoon never got past the teaser because of post-Bucky-O'Hare-anti-space-rabbit backlash, and the Mysterymen were, well, a fun but not groundbreaking summer movie. Despite these attempts, those creators never altered their own rendition of those characters, and I doubt they would ever do it, mainstream succes or not.

It is true that a good action-packed, kick-ass, manga-like-drawn title would do the franchise a great good in the common comic buyer eyes, but I would prefer to see the birth of a revamped TMNT Adventures vol.2 than to see the Mirage continuity book get the «hot title» treatment; reminds me painfully of a certain Image book...

FALLEN ELDOR · 09-09-2005, 05:45 AM

Laird's book just isn't what I'm looking for, but I like the TMNT and comics so why not a TMNT book for us "other" fans? Perhaps it's time for a rebooted mainstream title...I'd love to see a TMNT book next to starwars and batman at borders books and music. Digital Webbing Presents #24 just made me want that so much more

Jaf · 09-09-2005, 12:58 PM

Like I said, everyone should start bugging the Mirage crew for TMNT Adventures vol.2!! (even Jaf would be happy with that). They could mix classic fan favorites (Krang, Bebop & Rocksteady, Ninjara) with the new toon characters in a great «what if..» fashion. And you'd get action aplenty, baby!

userpjx · 09-10-2005, 06:57 AM

That would be awsome. I wholeheartedly agree that your idea would be great. Unfortunately, I doubt anything even similar to that would happen.

OA · 09-10-2005, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaf

Like I said, everyone should start bugging the Mirage crew for TMNT Adventures vol.2!! (even Jaf would be happy with that). They could mix classic fan favorites (Krang, Bebop & Rocksteady, Ninjara) with the new toon characters in a great «what if..» fashion. And you'd get action aplenty, baby!

Yea, that would be pretty sweet! Who knows, if we buggem enough htings might happen

~~ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael~~ · 09-10-2005, 04:44 PM

I see. You definatley have some good points there(especially what you said about April's revelation. I wish they could have used that issue to focus more on Mikey's current situation, or Karai's). But personally I like the way Pete has been handling things. I mean, he's doing a comic the way he want's to do it(something I hope to do in the near future). And while I agree in saying it couldn't hurt to take in some fan suggestions, I still admire him for what he;s doing.

Also agree on what you said about the new toon and JLU. The currently are the 2 greatest cartoons out now that's intended for kids.

09-04-2005, 05:12 PM	#1
~~Leo656~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,703	Just to be nice for once... Okay, it seems like I'm getting a bit of a rep as a "Laird-hater" around here (rather than just someone who wishes Laird's "vision" of the TMNT was more in line with what fans want to see, but whatever), so I figure now's as good a time as any to list some things I really do like about the current TMNT product line and even good ol' P.L. himself. -"The Forever War". It's gonna rock (and finally close the book on the Archie continuity for all us old TMNTA fans). 'Nuff said. -Tales of the TMNT. A monthly TMNT book done right. In-continuity "flashback" stories dealing with "iconic" versions of the TMNT and Co. as we remember them. Books like this almost always come off well (Star Wars Tales, JLA Classified, etc.) because they can tell a lot of stories that a monthly "mainstream" book couldn't handle for various reasons. -The new 'toon. Even though I haven't been able to catch all the eps as they air, I have all the DVDs and I never get past being blown away by the overall superior quality of this show, not just to the old show (which was honestly too different to even make anything but the most surface comparisons) but to almost any cartoon on TV right now except Justice League Unlimited. -The CGI movie. Even though I'd prefer a live-action TMNT flick by far, I'm still psyched for this. I just hope the CGI will be good enough so as to enhance the story, not distract from it. -Peter Laird's dedication. Even though I don't like everything about Volume 4, even though I wish he wasn't so flippant with fans who disagree with him, even though I still think the April revelation was pointless and stupid, and even though I think the story could be moving a bit faster (at least), I'll tell you what I do appreciate: I appreciate the fact that Peter Laird does care enough to continue publishing TMNT, despite the fact that he is losing money on the book, because A) he wants to, and B) because the fans want it. My concern has always been that if the book was better overall, then more people would read it, and maybe it would make money, and then the future of the book might be more secure, instead of us all just hoping the day never comes when Laird just gets bored and stops. But I respect the fact that Peter does do it his way, even if I don't like all of it. It takes courage and dedication to do that in today's market, something Laird obviously has, so, for that, kudos. And to address something said in another thread, the reason I and others often compare TMNT to other, more "mainstream super-hero" comics is because, despite being independently published, TMNT as an overall property has far more in common with Superman, Batman, etc. than with Usagi and Flaming Carrot. Not as relates to content, but as far as the TMNT being a brand name recognized world-wide, something Usagi, etc. can't claim. Far more people are aware of the TMNT as a brand, and therefore their marketplace recognition should, for all intents and purposes, rival those "mainstream" characters, but that isn't the case, and that's what bugs me. Friends of mine tell me all the time that they don't buy TMNT, but would "if the art was better/if the story moved faster/if they didn't do that April thing", etc etc ad infinitum, and that's what's been bugging me. Remember, the man on the street doesn't even usually know that TMNT are an indy book, they only know that it's a huge property worth millions and they wonder why it's represented by a book like Volume 4. That is why they compare it to stuff like Superman and Batman instead of books like Flaming Carrot, which would seemingly be more in the same vein. I'unno, I'm just sick of all the Hatorade being spilled around here, and people accusing me of writing non-existent nasty emails to Laird and Co. Seriously, how funny is that?

09-04-2005, 05:57 PM	#3
OA Scatter the nuns!! Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 3,981	Nicely said...i too find myself expressing disgreeable opinions about Volum 4, but for the all the above reasons you mentioned, I am overall a happy camper... __________________

09-09-2005, 05:45 AM	#6
FALLEN ELDOR Hench Mutant Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 298	Laird's book just isn't what I'm looking for, but I like the TMNT and comics so why not a TMNT book for us "other" fans? Perhaps it's time for a rebooted mainstream title...I'd love to see a TMNT book next to starwars and batman at borders books and music. Digital Webbing Presents #24 just made me want that so much more __________________ The first movie was a perfect balance between the adult comics and the children's cartoon!

09-04-2005, 05:17 PM	#2
Machias Banshee Super Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 17,163	Yeah, I know, this isnt significant to the thread.. gives gifts of Mangoes and brownies Good to see you back, Hun..

09-04-2005, 11:07 PM	#4
Space Lieutenant Josh Hench Mutant Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Village of Rock'n Kick-Ass Posts: 492	Yeah, I felt like that letter in 23 was a little too mean to be yours. As long as I've been reading your posts, you always radiated a certain degree of respect, and, with that, respectful criticism. And another thing I gotta say, is it's always refreshing to see something like that.

09-09-2005, 12:58 PM	#7
Jaf Foot Soldier Join Date: May 2005 Location: Montréal (Québec) Posts: 106	Like I said, everyone should start bugging the Mirage crew for TMNT Adventures vol.2!! (even Jaf would be happy with that). They could mix classic fan favorites (Krang, Bebop & Rocksteady, Ninjara) with the new toon characters in a great «what if..» fashion. And you'd get action aplenty, baby!

09-10-2005, 06:57 AM	#8
userpjx Thug Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 51	That would be awsome. I wholeheartedly agree that your idea would be great. Unfortunately, I doubt anything even similar to that would happen.

09-10-2005, 04:44 PM	#10
~~ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael~~ Banned Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Seventh Layer of Hell Posts: 1,929	I see. You definatley have some good points there(especially what you said about April's revelation. I wish they could have used that issue to focus more on Mikey's current situation, or Karai's). But personally I like the way Pete has been handling things. I mean, he's doing a comic the way he want's to do it(something I hope to do in the near future). And while I agree in saying it couldn't hurt to take in some fan suggestions, I still admire him for what he;s doing. Also agree on what you said about the new toon and JLU. The currently are the 2 greatest cartoons out now that's intended for kids.