Baxter Stockman. A tragic character or cold villian.

[Sage Ninja]

In both the classic cartoon and the 2k3 cartoon Baxter has been given a tragic life. In the New Toon is quite evil and arrogant and kind of asks for the horriable things that happen to him. And yet despite this the show made him quite tragic and even pittiable with how he was treated by Shredder and slowly relieved of his body parts in violent ways til the point where all he wanted to do was just die in peace. The show even humanized him even more in Insane in the Membrane by showing his past and how he was actually a decent kid until his mother died, making him sympathtic to the audiance.

In the old toon Baxter is also a villan that was far more sympathtic than even his modern day counter-part by being portrayed as a niave, people pleaser who was treated like sh*t by Shredder, and then was mutated into a giant fly that became warped by madness and vengence.

In either case in the only two mediums where Baxter Stockman has been brought to life other than the comics, the writers have felt compelled to make him a tragic character that, inspite of him being a villan, would inspire sympathy for the poor psycho.

This isn't the case in the orginal mirage comics. After reading some of the first few orginal comics on line, Baxter Stockman is shown to be completely evil and murderous and is a full blown cold villan who tried to take over the city and kill April in a grusome way with his mousers just for discovering what he was doing. And later on in comics he mutilates himself by placing his brain in (I think) is a robot of his own accord. Unlike in the 2k3 series where his mutilations happen by being a victim of Shredder's punishments, or being turned into a mutant against his will like in the old toon. Mirage Baxter is calculating and is motivated by his gains rather than revenge for wrongs done to him like in the cartoon mediums. He's definatly not the tragic character he is made out to be out side the comics. And I was wondering which one do you prefere Stockman to be? A tragic villian or a coldly deleberately evil one?

The new cartoon is over (just about) and there is a new movie on it's way in 2011 that hints that Baxter Stockman might be apart of. If a new cartoon series or in the new movie happened to have him would you want him to be as evil and calculating as mirage counter-part or do you think works best as character out side the comics as a tragic villianous character?

[BoggleKng]

I always thought of Baxter as a tragic villian who was manipulated for evil means..

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by BoggleKng

I always thought of Baxter as a tragic villian who was manipulated for evil means..

yeah but Baxter in the comics isn't manipulated by any one like he is in the cartoons. He does what he does for him self for his own gain and isn't serving any one.

I was wondering if, like Karai from the cartoon, who has changed from the comics as being Saki's equal with no personal attachment to him, to his devouted daughter who angts over her loyalites, worked better in that form than in her orginal comics form. If it applied to Baxter Stockmans protrayal in the comics vs. his cartoon character.

[gobo]

Classic 'toon Baxter was just an impressionable whiner that fell in with the wrong crowd. That's tragic. In 2K3, he was always a sadistic egotist. That's the beginnings of villainy. I mean, they always made fun a joke of it past season one, but Vernon was a villain. Seriously, when did they ever show him intentionally doing anything protagonistic that wasn't for his own convenience? For that matter, I guess Burne was pretty rotten too.

[sdp]

Obviously the tragic villain works well. Instead of being a stereotypical bad guy he has a reason. Just because he is boring in the comics does not matter. Most comic book villains had boring origins until later media or even the comics themselves gave them a more interesting origin.



Which Baxter do you guys think was more tragic? OT or NT?

I'd have to go with OT man all the Baxter Fly episodes made you feel so bad for him.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by sdp

Obviously the tragic villain works well. Instead of being a stereotypical bad guy he has a reason.

The sympathetic villain thing can get overused sometimes though. Like in every single Spider-Man movie. Even in the first one, because Norman wasn't all that bad until the Goblin formula made him go crazy.

[Cipher]

Baxter's fate in the old toon is by far more disturbing. That Baxter seems to get caught up in something over his head, and meets a pretty awful fate. (Increasing demensia and the body of a fly.)

By contrast, Baxter was always villainous in the new cartoon. He tried to hold a city for ransom and kill April. Shredder's punishments may have been harsh, but Baxter was still a cold-blooded killer. The only time you can really start to feel sorry for him is when he becomes suicidal while in Bishop's employ, at the tail end of season four.

As for which I prefer, I think he works really well in both shows, and the comics. They're very different characters. Although I've always had a soft spot for the fly mustation, and I don't think it's just nostalgia talking.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by Cipher

As for which I prefer, I think he works really well in both shows, and the comics. They're very different characters. Although I've always had a soft spot for the fly mustation, and I don't think it's just nostalgia talking.

Nowadays I can appreciate it as a nod to The Fly.

[BoggleKng]

If we are talking Baxter as in new movie, I would like to see him as a villan but with some story behind him..

[Sage Ninja]

Originally Posted by Mr._Mutant_Man

The sympathetic villain thing can get overused sometimes though. Like in every single Spider-Man movie. Even in the first one, because Norman wasn't all that bad until the Goblin formula made him go crazy.

thats kind of what I'm getting at here. Does Baxter Stockman's character work better as a pure villian who is evil, or one that is evil but you can sympathise with because he's been screwed over so many times. Since it's been established in more than one medium that Baxter Stockmon is the scientist in some shape or form that gets screwed over and goes insane and becomes vengeful, is character now relient on that nuiance? Or do you think he could still work as a good villian if he was just straight up evil who acts on his own instead of a tragic one.

It's like how I mentioned with Karai's character being established in the cartoon mediums as having a personal link to the Shredder (in the case of the 2k3 turtles Shredder is a father figure), which gives her the excuse to have an issue with the turtles because they are her fathers enemies. Since that has been established as her relationship with Shredder would her character work if a movie or future cartoon series down the road just made her the leader of the Japanese branch of the foot who doesn't have any deeper involvement in Shredder other as an assiociate?

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja

It's like how I mentioned with Karai's character being established in the cartoon mediums as having a personal link to the Shredder (in the case of the 2k3 turtles Shredder is a father figure), which gives her the excuse to have an issue with the turtles because they are her fathers enemies. Since that has been established as her relationship with Shredder would her character work if a movie or future cartoon series down the road just made her the leader of the Japanese branch of the foot who doesn't have any deeper involvement in Shredder other as an assiociate?

While I can take my Baxter any which way, I'm of the opinion that 2003 cartoon Karai fails really hard compared to the Karai in the comics. She's just far less interesting, and really cliched.

[sdp]

Sympathetic villain is not as overused as a villain being bad for the sake of being bad. Its evolution, no villain or hero are going to be black and white, it makes them less interesting.

Just because its in the source material doesn't mean anything, Batman, Superman, Spiderman etc would all be less interesting if they still followed the way they were written back then.

[gobo]

I think I misunderstood the question. Sorry.

[XERO]

Anybody who quotes John friggin' McClane is considered a tragic villian.

[Scandia]

I think he works better as a tragic villain. More complex that way. If you want a one-sided one, that's what Ch'rell and Krang are for.

[Cowabunga Kiefer]

Yeah, I'd say he is a tragic villain. I mean his life was going nowhere anyway. Staying in a loft, building mousers, and trying to benefit to society. (I'm referring to more the OT f.y.i) Then after multiple episodes of holding Shredder back, plus numerous mistakes, it seems pretty unfair for Krang to just murder him (which was the original plan before accidentally being turned into a fly). So, it's just one bad thing after another. But, he doesn't make that great of a villain regardless, (that's why he's the Level 1 boss on "Turtles in Time"!)

[Rooish]

I like Baxter as a tragic villain. A lot of times in the 2003 show I felt really bad for him, especially because of Hun's and Shredder's treatment of him. It made me uncomfortable that Shredder kept maiming him, and he never maimed Hun.

Baxter is totally insane in the Mirage comics. Don has a kind of showdown with him in Vol. 4 that's pretty intense.

Cool that you read some of the Mirage comics finally, Sage. I'd like to know what it's like for you, as you saw the new cartoon before reading the comics. What do you think of the comics?

[Jelly Bean]

Originally Posted by Rooish

Baxter is totally insane in the Mirage comics. Don has a kind of showdown with him in Vol. 4 that's pretty intense.

sounds interesting. What happened between them?

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Originally Posted by Jelly Bean

sounds interesting. What happened between them?

Spoiler tagged just in case:

Spoiler:

Donatello kept what was left of Baxter Stockman alive for several years. When April became ill, Donatello suspected that Stockman would have the answers, because it involved something he injected her with. Stockman refused to help, and Donatello realized that Stockman was "irredeemably evil" as he put it. Donatello then decides to kill Stockman.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Cool villain.