SotO: Failure to Connect

*Donnie* · 01-28-2013, 11:26 PM

Upon re-watching Secret of the Ooze (it's been awhile since I've watched it beginning to end) I can't help but notice the blatant disregard for what was established in movie 1 concerning Yoshi & Saki's history. Concerning Shredder, SotO treats him as some hell-bent "all talk, no walk" villain back from the dead with the sole intention of killing the Turtles, a pathetic visage of how Saki was portrayed in film one. His feud is wholly with the Turtles, it's almost like his rivalry with Splinter is completely ignored and meaningless.

In the first film, there was never a question who Shredder was feuding with, even if not directly during the present story-time. Yoshi, not the Turtles, is Saki's adversary. The Turtles are an accidental obstacle for Saki in the first film, one that happened to be tied to his past. You can tell by Saki's reaction to the Turtles versus his reaction to seeing Splinter that Saki & Splinter go way back, this is their feud and the Turtles are now a part of it.

In SotO, this awesome angle built up in movie 1 goes flying directly out the window. The second film in turn looses substance and depth, and it taints the entire history that was created in the superb writing of film one. In SotO, Splinter shows up with a bow and arrow at the junk yard just in the nick of time to save the Turtles from Shredder's WTF-is-that-machine, then just slinks away. No f--ks are given by Saki or Yoshi that they are standing in the same arena, no words are said by either character that indicate they even recognize their life-adversary is standing in front of them.

The disregard for the foundation built during film one concerning the history of Yoshi & Saki never struck me as so glaringly apparent until this re-watch, so I had to make a post on the matter.

Thoughts?

*CyberCubed* · 01-28-2013, 11:29 PM

Shredder's change was obvious. He flat out says, "The Foot have failed. I...have failed," when he returns from "the dead," to see Tatsu and the Clan again.

It should have been rather obvious that Shredder would want revenge at that point, so his desire to use what was left of the Foot Clan and the mutagen to kill the Turtles with made sense.

As for why Splinter and Shredder didn't focus much on each other in the second film? Who knows, but I guess since Splinter defeated Shredder all by himself in the first film, the scriptwriters wanted the Turtles to defeat him this time.

*Powder* · 01-28-2013, 11:31 PM

I never put much stock into it. Everything you've said is true, but I don't let it bother me. Despite alleged continuity, every film is pretty much a different thing. Gotta take 'em with a grain of salt. They get progressively goofier and become more and more about physical gags and cornball humor than being plot-driven and psychological.

*Donnie* · 01-28-2013, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

As for why Splinter and Shredder didn't focus much on each other in the second film? Who knows, but I guess since Splinter defeated Shredder all by himself in the first film, the scriptwriters wanted the Turtles to defeat him this time.

That's not a reason to practically erase all past tensions so beautifully built up in the previous film...real emotions were had there. If the screenwriters of SotO wanted to make a continuation from the first film, forgetting about a big chunk of what made the first film have decent substance is a pretty cruddy thing to pass over...at least in my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powder

Despite alleged continuity, every film is pretty much a different thing.

Yeah, you're right. I remember we talked about this in that thread I started about each film being its own universe. It's weird though, the absence of the Saki/Yoshi feud from film two was never so obvious to me before. But now it's a slight sore upon the movie for me...I'll still enjoy SotO for what it is, of course, a movie version of the OT TMNT.

*Turo602* · 01-29-2013, 06:28 AM

You are aware that a lot was changed in Secret of the Ooze, right? It was a more lighthearted film, due to complaints of the first being too violent for its target audience, kids. Plus, we've already seen the whole Shredder and Splinter thing before, so why do the same again? Eventually the TMNT are going to have to fight for themselves... And wasn't Splinter like, really old?

*ToTheNines* · 01-29-2013, 07:07 AM

Well put Donnie. While the turtles did lay waste to his clan, he really didn't suffer that much from his fall and subsequent "crushing". When you think about it, he doesn't even have that much to be mad about lol. That's what's cool about Ross Campbell's fan comic "Secrets of the Ooze", Shredder has a way better reason to want to kill the turtles. It's not out yet, but this is what happened to Shredder after the events of the first movie.

Spoiler:

Plus Casey actually killed Tatsu.

And yeah, I always loved the bow & arrow scene, but the way it ended so abruptly was silly. Even as a kid, I wanted to see Splinter unload his quiver on the Foot haha.

D-Nizzy · 01-29-2013, 10:22 AM

Of course, if his main cheese was with Splinter in the first film, why did he keep him chained up for 1/3 of the movie? He's pretty clearly out to get the turtles. If he was only after Splinter, he had plenty of time to do him in.

*ToTheNines* · 01-29-2013, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D-Nizzy

Of course, if his main cheese was with Splinter in the first film, why did he keep him chained up for 1/3 of the movie? He's pretty clearly out to get the turtles. If he was only after Splinter, he had plenty of time to do him in.

Shredder didn't realize he was Yoshi's rat until the end of the third act. Pay attention.

*Andrew NDB* · 01-29-2013, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powder

I never put much stock into it. Everything you've said is true, but I don't let it bother me. Despite alleged continuity, every film is pretty much a different thing. Gotta take 'em with a grain of salt. They get progressively goofier and become more and more about physical gags and cornball humor than being plot-driven and psychological.

Which has never ceased to seem bizarre to me. As years pass and your audience gets older... the route to take is to make the sequels younger and younger? It's just weird.

*Donnie* · 01-29-2013, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Shredder didn't realize he was Yoshi's rat until the end of the third act. Pay attention.

Thumbs up for beating me to it.

Nines, yeah, I'm pumped for Ross's fan-comic! I saw those designs when he posted them and I'm really looking forward to what he's cooking up concerning this mutilated Shredder. Clearly here we have actual reasoning for Saki's new vendetta against the Turtles themselves (based alone on his appearance), as you stated.

Turo, the answer to your question - "why do the same again?" - is simple. It's called continuity, and the rivalry was built up so poignantly in the first film that to strip the second of it completely and call it a sequel is just a slap in the face to what the first film accomplished, really. How one can defend the choices of the film-makers of SotO for stripping almost all traces of the first film away is beyond me...

*CyberCubed* · 01-29-2013, 11:09 AM

Ross Campbells Rahzar looks way too much like Dogpound in that pic.

D-Nizzy · 01-29-2013, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToTheNines

Shredder didn't realize he was Yoshi's rat until the end of the third act. Pay attention.

Fair enough (and I just watched the movie on Friday

.) But you have to admit Shredder is pretty adamant about hunting them turtles. So I'm not seeing any descrepancy in his attitude in the second film. Whatever his beef with Splinter, he spends a lot of man-power chasing after turtles. Thanks for the smacking though.

dkram230 · 01-29-2013, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Which has never ceased to seem bizarre to me. As years pass and your audience gets older... the route to take is to make the sequels younger and younger? It's just weird.

I recall reading an article in the paper at the time about how the first film did not sit well with parents. Mom and dad would take little Joey to the movie expecting to see the bright and bubbly fun loving turtles from TV. When they got there they were greeted with a much darker version of the TMNT who were not afraid to use violence, had tempers, real human problems, etc. The story line had depth to it that was uncommon to the cartoon. At the time it actually caused some confusion in the franchise for the general public who had no idea of TMNT's indy comic roots. I believe that parts 2 and 3 were a direct response to this confusion and "disproval" from parents. As a kid (aged 8-11) I didn't care and liked all 3 storylines. I was more annoyed by the casting and voice changes than anything else.

*Andrew NDB* · 01-29-2013, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dkram230

I recall reading an article in the paper at the time about how the first film did not sit well with parents

Right. But the movies weren't for parents, they're for the kids. Seems a pretty self-defeatist way to go about making a movie franchise.

*chrisdude* · 01-29-2013, 12:13 PM

The Foot only captured Splinter because he was the only one home.

Shredder sent the Foot to shut April up, for speaking out about the crime wave's connection to their organization.

Raph just happened to be trailing April at the time, to get his sai back.

One Foot ninja followed Raph when he took April back to the lair, reported back, the fighting style was recognized as Yoshi's, and the Foot went back to get them.

It just happened that the turtles had left to take April home.

Shredder's beef was with the turtles from the moment Raph interfered. He spoke of them as the enemy when he addressed his clan.

As was said before, Splinter was only recognized as Yoshi's pet in the rooftop battle.

dkram230 · 01-29-2013, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Right. But the movies weren't for parents, they're for the kids. Seems a pretty self-defeatist way to go about making a movie franchise.

Agreed! I would like to think that the film industry no longer applies this method of thinking for its movie franchises 25 years later. But I would be willing to bet we could come up with a few examples of sequels that bombed in recent years because the studios felt they needed to adhere to some kind of misguided complaint.

*Jephael* · 01-29-2013, 12:47 PM

Parents back then had quite a knack for making a mountain out of a molehill! I like to think our generation is a lot more open-minded from having enjoyed all these colorful action oriented cartoons and movies as kids, though sadly our age group still has a few unfortunate souls whose folks were a little too over-protective and thus grew up to be stuck up, whiny losers who don't know how to have fun! Sorry this rant doesn't have a lot to do with the main topic, but I just had to get it off my chest.

*chrisdude* · 01-29-2013, 12:52 PM

I think times have changed. People take their kids to Dark Knight movies.

*Chris* · 01-29-2013, 04:50 PM

I don't remember my parents having any problems with the content of the first film. In fact I remember watching it with my dad at the time and he actually told me that Shredder was going to kill Leo when he had him pinned in the rooftop battle. I was 6 so I believed him and was devastated for the next minute until Splinter arrived and Leo lived.

01-28-2013, 11:26 PM	#1
Donnie Something from the Past Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: New York Posts: 3,256	SotO: Failure to Connect Upon re-watching Secret of the Ooze (it's been awhile since I've watched it beginning to end) I can't help but notice the blatant disregard for what was established in movie 1 concerning Yoshi & Saki's history. Concerning Shredder, SotO treats him as some hell-bent "all talk, no walk" villain back from the dead with the sole intention of killing the Turtles, a pathetic visage of how Saki was portrayed in film one. His feud is wholly with the Turtles, it's almost like his rivalry with Splinter is completely ignored and meaningless. In the first film, there was never a question who Shredder was feuding with, even if not directly during the present story-time. Yoshi, not the Turtles, is Saki's adversary. The Turtles are an accidental obstacle for Saki in the first film, one that happened to be tied to his past. You can tell by Saki's reaction to the Turtles versus his reaction to seeing Splinter that Saki & Splinter go way back, this is their feud and the Turtles are now a part of it. In SotO, this awesome angle built up in movie 1 goes flying directly out the window. The second film in turn looses substance and depth, and it taints the entire history that was created in the superb writing of film one. In SotO, Splinter shows up with a bow and arrow at the junk yard just in the nick of time to save the Turtles from Shredder's WTF-is-that-machine, then just slinks away. No f--ks are given by Saki or Yoshi that they are standing in the same arena, no words are said by either character that indicate they even recognize their life-adversary is standing in front of them. The disregard for the foundation built during film one concerning the history of Yoshi & Saki never struck me as so glaringly apparent until this re-watch, so I had to make a post on the matter. Thoughts?

01-29-2013, 06:28 AM	#5
Turo602 The King of Kings Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Chicago Illinois Posts: 2,931	You are aware that a lot was changed in Secret of the Ooze, right? It was a more lighthearted film, due to complaints of the first being too violent for its target audience, kids. Plus, we've already seen the whole Shredder and Splinter thing before, so why do the same again? Eventually the TMNT are going to have to fight for themselves... And wasn't Splinter like, really old? __________________

01-29-2013, 12:13 PM	#15
chrisdude Foot Elite Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,708	The Foot only captured Splinter because he was the only one home. Shredder sent the Foot to shut April up, for speaking out about the crime wave's connection to their organization. Raph just happened to be trailing April at the time, to get his sai back. One Foot ninja followed Raph when he took April back to the lair, reported back, the fighting style was recognized as Yoshi's, and the Foot went back to get them. It just happened that the turtles had left to take April home. Shredder's beef was with the turtles from the moment Raph interfered. He spoke of them as the enemy when he addressed his clan. As was said before, Splinter was only recognized as Yoshi's pet in the rooftop battle. __________________ PSN/Miiverse: MikeFarber

01-29-2013, 12:47 PM	#17
Jephael That whack job behind you Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Carlisle, Pennsylvania Posts: 8,143	Parents back then had quite a knack for making a mountain out of a molehill! I like to think our generation is a lot more open-minded from having enjoyed all these colorful action oriented cartoons and movies as kids, though sadly our age group still has a few unfortunate souls whose folks were a little too over-protective and thus grew up to be stuck up, whiny losers who don't know how to have fun! Sorry this rant doesn't have a lot to do with the main topic, but I just had to get it off my chest. __________________ "I like it. Simple, but effective!" Raphael; The Mean Machines - 1988 Last edited by Jephael; 01-29-2013 at 12:54 PM.

01-29-2013, 12:52 PM	#18
chrisdude Foot Elite Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,708	I think times have changed. People take their kids to Dark Knight movies. __________________ PSN/Miiverse: MikeFarber

01-28-2013, 11:29 PM	#2
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,791	Shredder's change was obvious. He flat out says, "The Foot have failed. I...have failed," when he returns from "the dead," to see Tatsu and the Clan again. It should have been rather obvious that Shredder would want revenge at that point, so his desire to use what was left of the Foot Clan and the mutagen to kill the Turtles with made sense. As for why Splinter and Shredder didn't focus much on each other in the second film? Who knows, but I guess since Splinter defeated Shredder all by himself in the first film, the scriptwriters wanted the Turtles to defeat him this time.

01-28-2013, 11:31 PM	#3
Powder 40 Years of TMNT Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shell-Ri-La Posts: 26,945	I never put much stock into it. Everything you've said is true, but I don't let it bother me. Despite alleged continuity, every film is pretty much a different thing. Gotta take 'em with a grain of salt. They get progressively goofier and become more and more about physical gags and cornball humor than being plot-driven and psychological.

01-29-2013, 07:07 AM	#6
ToTheNines Col. Stinkmeaner Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 19,208	Well put Donnie. While the turtles did lay waste to his clan, he really didn't suffer that much from his fall and subsequent "crushing". When you think about it, he doesn't even have that much to be mad about lol. That's what's cool about Ross Campbell's fan comic "Secrets of the Ooze", Shredder has a way better reason to want to kill the turtles. It's not out yet, but this is what happened to Shredder after the events of the first movie. Spoiler: Plus Casey actually killed Tatsu. And yeah, I always loved the bow & arrow scene, but the way it ended so abruptly was silly. Even as a kid, I wanted to see Splinter unload his quiver on the Foot haha.

01-29-2013, 10:22 AM	#7
D-Nizzy Foot Soldier Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: CT Posts: 182	Of course, if his main cheese was with Splinter in the first film, why did he keep him chained up for 1/3 of the movie? He's pretty clearly out to get the turtles. If he was only after Splinter, he had plenty of time to do him in.

01-29-2013, 11:09 AM	#11
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,791	Ross Campbells Rahzar looks way too much like Dogpound in that pic.

01-29-2013, 04:50 PM	#19
Chris Mad Scientist Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,898	I don't remember my parents having any problems with the content of the first film. In fact I remember watching it with my dad at the time and he actually told me that Shredder was going to kill Leo when he had him pinned in the rooftop battle. I was 6 so I believed him and was devastated for the next minute until Splinter arrived and Leo lived.