Do you think that the episodic nature of OT is a small part of what makes it popular?

~~Davetello~~ · 08-31-2014, 04:12 AM

This discussion has probably been had before, but we might as well do it again seeing as new people are joining all the time.

Everyone knows the main reasons why the OT became such a hit and why it led to 'turtlemania'. However, do you think that the episodic nature of the show gives it an advantage? Like most shows pre nineties, it wasn't serialised (other than in occasional places such as the climax to season 3 or Red Sky episodes) because there was no way to watch on demand back then. This probably carries over into the current era too, because people can just jump in and watch a random episode now and then. This is sometimes possible with the 4kids and Nick shows as well, but for the most part those shows are heavily serialised so it's not quite as easy to watch the odd episode - you need to invest the proper time in those shows. So do you think that the stand-alone nature of most FW episodes is still helping its popularity in some small way?

I guess you could extend this discussion to 'serialised vs procedural' TV shows. But I'm more interested in how it affects the turtle shows in particular.

**Jester** · 08-31-2014, 04:15 AM

I dunna...it may have helped with the "dive in from any point" aspect, but I really wonder if it was the acting and humor...especially character interactions....and ESPECIALLY Shredder and Krang.

~~Davetello~~ · 08-31-2014, 04:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester

I dunna...it may have helped with the "dive in from any point" aspect, but I really wonder if it was the acting and humor...especially character interactions....and ESPECIALLY Shredder and Krang.

Yeah, those are probably the main selling points, I agree. The humour especially fit the late 80s and early 90s. I guess I should really rephrase my question: the show would still have been very popular had it been serialised, but would it have taken off in quite the way it did? I'd imagine some kids would have lost interest if they had to know what had happened in previous eps, etc. We have to bear in mind that it would have been rare for a cartoon to be serialised at that time, so kids may have watched other shows instead.

As I say in the title, if it is a factor then it's probably a smaller one as compared to all the other attractions of the show.

**Jester** · 08-31-2014, 04:27 AM

When the FW series tried to be more serialized, it was kinda hit (the pilot "season", Eye of Sarnath, the Big Trilogy) or miss (The European vacation, with continuity all over the place and arguably the last few seasons with it's massive status quo changes).

There is some mild continuity outside of the truly serialized episodes (Shredder's pottery collection, for example) but a series as massive (in episode number and pop culture) as TMNT might have indeed been better served by episodes that were stand alone...especially since many were probably in production at once.

~~Davetello~~ · 08-31-2014, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester

When the FW series tried to be more serialized, it was kinda hit (the pilot "season", Eye of Sarnath, the Big Trilogy) or miss (The European vacation, with continuity all over the place and arguably the last few seasons with it's massive status quo changes).

There is some mild continuity outside of the truly serialized episodes (Shredder's pottery collection, for example) but a series as massive (in episode number and pop culture) as TMNT might have indeed been better served by episodes that were stand alone...especially since many were probably in production at once.

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. As an aside I actually enjoy the European Vacation episodes a lot, even though they're generally recognised as weaker than the normal episodes. Perhaps it's because I am European myself and it was fun to see the turtles come here.

That's another good point - the show was on every day and massive quantities of episodes were produced in short periods. Given that, and the fact that serialised storytelling was relatively rare at that time, it probably wouldn't have coped with being a fully serialised show.

*CyberCubed* · 08-31-2014, 07:14 AM

Most cartoons were episodic back then. Even Batman: TAS was entirely episodic that you could jump in at any time, besides having to see the origin of the villains first.

For some reason back in the 80's and early 90's cartoons weren't expected to have much in the way of continuing storylines or arcs. Sure, there were a few from time to time, but it was very rare. This is also why the OT only has one, "To be Continued" episode arc, and that's not until Season 10.

Its kind of funny how Batman: TAS was episodic for its entire run. I never saw cartoons in order when I was a kid, so I liked being able to jump in at any episode and not have to worry that I was missing anything.

*Powder* · 08-31-2014, 07:52 AM

Well, I don't watch my 4kids DVD's much due to the fact there's always some big story going on, so I guess my answer is yes. I like that I can throw on pretty much any episode & enjoy it without needing to refresh my memory or move on to the next to get a resolution.

*CyberCubed* · 08-31-2014, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powder

Well, I don't watch my 4kids DVD's much due to the fact there's always some big story going on, so I guess my answer is yes. I like that I can throw on pretty much any episode & enjoy it without needing to refresh my memory or move on to the next to get a resolution.

If anything it's easier to marathon 4kids since I usually watch the arcs in one go like its a movie. It's the filler episodes of 4kids that often break the pacing.

*pannoni1* · 08-31-2014, 10:09 AM

There is a clear generation gap among TV watching habits. Today's youth (under 25 appx.) prefer binge watching; they've known DVD box sets for most of their lives and are content with marathoning and see episodic plots as too empty and basic. Reality TV's rise had a lot to do with this since they are always serialistic. This is in contrast to Soap Operas in which numerous plots are recycled and you can only have a portion of the cast in each. That said, the advantage of being episodic has a nature of simplicity along with grasping the characters' stereotypes more easily. But I'd still give credit for Season 1, the Eye of Sarath arc, the final three Season 3 episodes, and much of Red Sky (Though by then serialistic cartoons were starting to take off) for providing some continuity in the mix. The OT has of course is fun due to its pop cultural references, fourth wall jokes, and of course cel animation that is not found on future animated series, but you can't count out a show where if you pick one random episode you can still enjoy it even if you only have a basic knowledge of the characters.

*DarkFell* · 08-31-2014, 08:21 PM

I wouldn't say that OT TMNT has been made popular due to it's episodic nature, but I will say that the series' episodic nature has made it fun for me to watch. Once you're done watching season 1, then you pretty much know the cast of characters at that point and the fun aspects of the series can resume.

*ssjup81* · 08-31-2014, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberCubed

Most cartoons were episodic back then. Even Batman: TAS was entirely episodic that you could jump in at any time, besides having to see the origin of the villains first.

For some reason back in the 80's and early 90's cartoons weren't expected to have much in the way of continuing storylines or arcs. Sure, there were a few from time to time, but it was very rare. This is also why the OT only has one, "To be Continued" episode arc, and that's not until Season 10.

Its kind of funny how Batman: TAS was episodic for its entire run. I never saw cartoons in order when I was a kid, so I liked being able to jump in at any episode and not have to worry that I was missing anything.

Well, it made sense for shows to be episodic back then. A lot of cartoons were shown in syndication and we also didn't have DVR and stuff in case you missed an ep or couldn't tape it. With it being episodic, you can pick up most anywhere and just watch it.

*Refractive Reflections* · 09-01-2014, 12:00 PM

As mentioned earlier, TV viewing was different back then (no DVR or "on-demand" viewing) so most shows had to be generally procedural (not just TMNT, but primetime grownup shows like The Cosby Show, Cheers, and especially more humor-oriented programs). That way it allowed new viewers to jump onto the series easily rather than having to scour for VHS tapes on how things had developed. At that time, it was mostly soap operas who could afford to be serial since their primary audience was noted for staying at home most of the time (seniors and housewives), but as time passed with more women joining more and more into the work force and the development of the internet and online viewing, TV viewing and ratings have changed dramatically. The older models of how people view television and rating viewership are becoming irrelevant.

So the landscape of television was different back then, just to explain the environment of television back then. But back to Turtles...

The OT wasn't completely devoid of continuity; the most obvious example is the location of the Technodrome. The OT had continuity where they did explain the previous episodes a recurring character(s) was/were involved in, for example, with the Punk Frogs and Lotus and Slash, or revisiting particular situations, such as a personality change in "Mr. Nice Guy" (Season 6) when Donatello and Michelangelo remember back how the personality modifying ray changed Leonardo (in "Leonardo Lightens Up" in Season 4). One small detail I noticed is that even smaller, irrelevant details like Vernon's talk show is mentioned again ("Enter: Mutagen Man") a season after the show displayed it ("The Dimension X Story").

The OT had the right balance for a nonchalant child viewer where anyone could join in on viewing, but yet the situations were different enough (as half-hour syndicated programming would allow) where it did not seem as repetitious as it could have been in regards to children's shows. In my situation with both of my parents working, this procedural format worked well because I only had a chance to really watch the show when it became a staple of Saturday mornings in 1990, otherwise I had very rare chances of viewing them on weekdays (1988-1989) if my parents miraculously decided to take the day off of work. In fact, it wasn't always guaranteed for me in having a chance to view the episodes on Saturdays, because with my parents being divorced and living in different homes, if they had a huge errand day that day, I would have to accompany them wherever they drove on Saturdays. It would have been incredibly frustrating if the OT had strong continuity like 2K3 and aired on weekdays, and I probably wouldn't have bothered or had the time to keep up with it being a kid.

...But outside of the procedural vs. serial and continuity topics, the big appeal the OT had for me were the characters, the humor, and of course interaction between Krang, Shredder, Bebop and Rocksteady (mentioned by Jester above). The voice acting and interaction between the characters were an integral part of it, because even though there were other action-adventure shows where the heroes could fight, it doesn't necessarily equate to meaning that their personalities were enjoyable. One big part of the appeal for me at least, was that the OT Turtles had a much more cohesive and peaceful dynamic when I compare it to the 4Kids Turtles, where the fighting between the 4Kids Turtles (especially with 2K3 Raph) can reach grating levels sometimes. Being a child from a bitter divorce, if 4Kids was on back then, and if I wanted to see that much arguing within a family (especially with 2K3 Raph's trifling issues with Mikey), I certainly wouldn't have had to look that far within my surroundings. ...But that's not what I was looking for being a child back then who was looking for optimistic escapism on television.

*neatoman* · 09-01-2014, 12:48 PM

Nah, almost everything was episodic at the time. I think the reason it got popular is that it seemed like such a unique and crazy idea compared to everthing else.

*pferreira* · 09-04-2014, 08:33 AM

This does make the interesting question, which is better: serialized or episodic storytelling. I'm probably in the big minority here but I'm not a fan of serialized TV shows in general mainly because they don't have enough story content to sustain not just a season but also the shows premise. I don't hate all serialized TV, I just don't like a lot of it. The reason I favour standalone storytelling is because it forces a variety of plot ideas. Serialized arcs and such don't need that, just one continuous path of writing from 'Episode A' to 'Episode B'. When done effectively you can have the Lord of the Rings of TV but often serialized TV shows are that way due to lazy writing. It's an easy way out of using your imagination when writing a series. That's what I don't condone about TV today.

I feel that a good TV show should be episodic in nature but contain continuing story and character arcs like the 1990s Star Trek shows The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. The 80s Turtles isn't a great example of TV but it does annoy me more cartoons for kids today can't take a leaf out of the Fred Wolf series. It's also a problem with TV in general, episodic TV is disappearing and the only thing remotely like it is Law and Order, CSI, NCIS, NCSI or whatever. So basically cop/crime shows.

I think serialized shows have potential but it's needs to be more than a simple premise of "people locked inside a dome or stranded on an island, write six seasons about it" for it to be interesting.

*THGhost* · 09-04-2014, 11:27 AM

I suppose it was a big help, yes. Being able to jump in at any time must be very appealing to young viewers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jester

ESPECIALLY Shredder and Krang.

Definitely.

08-31-2014, 04:12 AM	#1
~~Davetello~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Greater Glasgow, Scotland, The Ununited Kingdom Posts: 1,712	Do you think that the episodic nature of OT is a small part of what makes it popular? This discussion has probably been had before, but we might as well do it again seeing as new people are joining all the time. Everyone knows the main reasons why the OT became such a hit and why it led to 'turtlemania'. However, do you think that the episodic nature of the show gives it an advantage? Like most shows pre nineties, it wasn't serialised (other than in occasional places such as the climax to season 3 or Red Sky episodes) because there was no way to watch on demand back then. This probably carries over into the current era too, because people can just jump in and watch a random episode now and then. This is sometimes possible with the 4kids and Nick shows as well, but for the most part those shows are heavily serialised so it's not quite as easy to watch the odd episode - you need to invest the proper time in those shows. So do you think that the stand-alone nature of most FW episodes is still helping its popularity in some small way? I guess you could extend this discussion to 'serialised vs procedural' TV shows. But I'm more interested in how it affects the turtle shows in particular.

08-31-2014, 04:15 AM	#2
Jester Rat-faced Dude-guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 26,297	I dunna...it may have helped with the "dive in from any point" aspect, but I really wonder if it was the acting and humor...especially character interactions....and ESPECIALLY Shredder and Krang. __________________ "Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656

08-31-2014, 04:27 AM	#4
Jester Rat-faced Dude-guy Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Arkansas Posts: 26,297	When the FW series tried to be more serialized, it was kinda hit (the pilot "season", Eye of Sarnath, the Big Trilogy) or miss (The European vacation, with continuity all over the place and arguably the last few seasons with it's massive status quo changes). There is some mild continuity outside of the truly serialized episodes (Shredder's pottery collection, for example) but a series as massive (in episode number and pop culture) as TMNT might have indeed been better served by episodes that were stand alone...especially since many were probably in production at once. __________________ "Clearly, you're Ninja Turtling incorrectly." - Leo656

08-31-2014, 10:09 AM	#9
pannoni1 Foot Elite Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: USA Posts: 3,447	There is a clear generation gap among TV watching habits. Today's youth (under 25 appx.) prefer binge watching; they've known DVD box sets for most of their lives and are content with marathoning and see episodic plots as too empty and basic. Reality TV's rise had a lot to do with this since they are always serialistic. This is in contrast to Soap Operas in which numerous plots are recycled and you can only have a portion of the cast in each. That said, the advantage of being episodic has a nature of simplicity along with grasping the characters' stereotypes more easily. But I'd still give credit for Season 1, the Eye of Sarath arc, the final three Season 3 episodes, and much of Red Sky (Though by then serialistic cartoons were starting to take off) for providing some continuity in the mix. The OT has of course is fun due to its pop cultural references, fourth wall jokes, and of course cel animation that is not found on future animated series, but you can't count out a show where if you pick one random episode you can still enjoy it even if you only have a basic knowledge of the characters. __________________ http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/sho...d.php?t=37065- MY WANT LIST TMNT FAN CLUB LINK: http://sot.ag/gCjK/ 30 years of Turtle Power!

09-01-2014, 12:00 PM	#12
Refractive Reflections Mad Scientist $Refractive Reflections's Avatar$ Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 2,371	As mentioned earlier, TV viewing was different back then (no DVR or "on-demand" viewing) so most shows had to be generally procedural (not just TMNT, but primetime grownup shows like The Cosby Show, Cheers, and especially more humor-oriented programs). That way it allowed new viewers to jump onto the series easily rather than having to scour for VHS tapes on how things had developed. At that time, it was mostly soap operas who could afford to be serial since their primary audience was noted for staying at home most of the time (seniors and housewives), but as time passed with more women joining more and more into the work force and the development of the internet and online viewing, TV viewing and ratings have changed dramatically. The older models of how people view television and rating viewership are becoming irrelevant. So the landscape of television was different back then, just to explain the environment of television back then. But back to Turtles... The OT wasn't completely devoid of continuity; the most obvious example is the location of the Technodrome. The OT had continuity where they did explain the previous episodes a recurring character(s) was/were involved in, for example, with the Punk Frogs and Lotus and Slash, or revisiting particular situations, such as a personality change in "Mr. Nice Guy" (Season 6) when Donatello and Michelangelo remember back how the personality modifying ray changed Leonardo (in "Leonardo Lightens Up" in Season 4). One small detail I noticed is that even smaller, irrelevant details like Vernon's talk show is mentioned again ("Enter: Mutagen Man") a season after the show displayed it ("The Dimension X Story"). The OT had the right balance for a nonchalant child viewer where anyone could join in on viewing, but yet the situations were different enough (as half-hour syndicated programming would allow) where it did not seem as repetitious as it could have been in regards to children's shows. In my situation with both of my parents working, this procedural format worked well because I only had a chance to really watch the show when it became a staple of Saturday mornings in 1990, otherwise I had very rare chances of viewing them on weekdays (1988-1989) if my parents miraculously decided to take the day off of work. In fact, it wasn't always guaranteed for me in having a chance to view the episodes on Saturdays, because with my parents being divorced and living in different homes, if they had a huge errand day that day, I would have to accompany them wherever they drove on Saturdays. It would have been incredibly frustrating if the OT had strong continuity like 2K3 and aired on weekdays, and I probably wouldn't have bothered or had the time to keep up with it being a kid. ...But outside of the procedural vs. serial and continuity topics, the big appeal the OT had for me were the characters, the humor, and of course interaction between Krang, Shredder, Bebop and Rocksteady (mentioned by Jester above). The voice acting and interaction between the characters were an integral part of it, because even though there were other action-adventure shows where the heroes could fight, it doesn't necessarily equate to meaning that their personalities were enjoyable. One big part of the appeal for me at least, was that the OT Turtles had a much more cohesive and peaceful dynamic when I compare it to the 4Kids Turtles, where the fighting between the 4Kids Turtles (especially with 2K3 Raph) can reach grating levels sometimes. Being a child from a bitter divorce, if 4Kids was on back then, and if I wanted to see that much arguing within a family (especially with 2K3 Raph's trifling issues with Mikey), I certainly wouldn't have had to look that far within my surroundings. ...But that's not what I was looking for being a child back then who was looking for optimistic escapism on television. Last edited by Refractive Reflections; 09-01-2014 at 12:32 PM.
$Refractive Reflections is offline$

08-31-2014, 07:14 AM	#6
CyberCubed Overlord Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 43,815	Most cartoons were episodic back then. Even Batman: TAS was entirely episodic that you could jump in at any time, besides having to see the origin of the villains first. For some reason back in the 80's and early 90's cartoons weren't expected to have much in the way of continuing storylines or arcs. Sure, there were a few from time to time, but it was very rare. This is also why the OT only has one, "To be Continued" episode arc, and that's not until Season 10. Its kind of funny how Batman: TAS was episodic for its entire run. I never saw cartoons in order when I was a kid, so I liked being able to jump in at any episode and not have to worry that I was missing anything.

08-31-2014, 07:52 AM	#7
Powder 40 Years of TMNT Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Shell-Ri-La Posts: 26,945	Well, I don't watch my 4kids DVD's much due to the fact there's always some big story going on, so I guess my answer is yes. I like that I can throw on pretty much any episode & enjoy it without needing to refresh my memory or move on to the next to get a resolution.

09-01-2014, 12:48 PM	#13
neatoman Overlord Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Stockholm Posts: 11,048	Nah, almost everything was episodic at the time. I think the reason it got popular is that it seemed like such a unique and crazy idea compared to everthing else.

09-04-2014, 08:33 AM	#14
pferreira Foot Elite Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 2,514	This does make the interesting question, which is better: serialized or episodic storytelling. I'm probably in the big minority here but I'm not a fan of serialized TV shows in general mainly because they don't have enough story content to sustain not just a season but also the shows premise. I don't hate all serialized TV, I just don't like a lot of it. The reason I favour standalone storytelling is because it forces a variety of plot ideas. Serialized arcs and such don't need that, just one continuous path of writing from 'Episode A' to 'Episode B'. When done effectively you can have the Lord of the Rings of TV but often serialized TV shows are that way due to lazy writing. It's an easy way out of using your imagination when writing a series. That's what I don't condone about TV today. I feel that a good TV show should be episodic in nature but contain continuing story and character arcs like the 1990s Star Trek shows The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. The 80s Turtles isn't a great example of TV but it does annoy me more cartoons for kids today can't take a leaf out of the Fred Wolf series. It's also a problem with TV in general, episodic TV is disappearing and the only thing remotely like it is Law and Order, CSI, NCIS, NCSI or whatever. So basically cop/crime shows. I think serialized shows have potential but it's needs to be more than a simple premise of "people locked inside a dome or stranded on an island, write six seasons about it" for it to be interesting.