New Ciro Nieli podcast... the future of Nick TMNT & more!

[CyberCubed]

It's because while people do want more female characters in the show, there's nothing wrong with the cast being mostly male in a show like this.

It's tokenism. There aren't any gay people on Nick's TMNT (at least that we know), so is that homophobic too?

[Matches Malone]

Nah, I'm all set here, but I appreciate the invitation.
Besides, chances are good there are already people on that site making the same case that I am, and doing a great deal of a better job than I ever could.

Case in point: Matches Malone.
Though...I guess that's not really a case in point, seeing as they're HERE, and not...in this nebulous elsewhere.

Hey, thanks! You know it's kind of insane but it was reading posts from you and some other feminists on this forum that really opened my mind to thinking about how we perceive minorities in media. I used to be on other side of the fence about how to encourage and foster diversity within it: let's find the minority creators and lift them up to offer an alternative to what we find lacking. No need to push this responsibility on everyone. But now I can see that the reasons for any creator to omit minorities is often pretty weak. A female mutant would feel shoehorned? Nah... That's because we think a female mutant has to act... "female." I try not to be a dick about it because I know how it feels; this stuff is complex and subtle. But yeah, point still stands.

It's because while people do want more female characters in the show, there's nothing wrong with the cast being mostly male in a show like this.

It's tokenism. There aren't any gay people on Nick's TMNT (at least that we know), so is that homophobic too?

There's no need to go to extremes when it comes to lack of diversity. Ciro is not a misogynist but hopefully can consider that he could do a better job with female characters. Obviously the show does not bash women, gays, or minorities. But is it so terrible to say that marginalization or in the case you brought up, total ignoring isn't helping? AKA The show's great but not the most progressive. It's a perceived downside, not an attack on minorities.

[Colonel Schrader]

There aren't any gay people on Nick's TMNT (at least that we know), so is that homophobic too?


don't give them any ideas! they might start some rat king x splinter love thing..

[plastroncafe]

Hey, thanks! You know it's kind of insane but it was reading posts from you and some other feminists on this forum that really opened my mind to thinking about how we perceive minorities in media. I used to be on other side of the fence about how to encourage and foster diversity within it: let's find the minority creators and lift them up to offer an alternative to what we find lacking. No need to push this responsibility on everyone. But now I can see that the reasons for any creator to omit minorities is often pretty weak. A female mutant would feel shoehorned? Nah... That's because we think a female mutant has to act... "female." I try not to be a dick about it because I know how it feels; this stuff is complex and subtle. But yeah, point still stands.

Hey thanks! I appreciate the kind words, but love the pay-it-forward attitude. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't want the dynamic of the show changed, or its core themes rewritten. I just think a little nuance would take an already great show and make it fantastic.

[demonsweat]

I would actually argue the opposite. To say you avoid writing women because it's more difficult (paraphrasing, obviously), it seems like you are limiting yourself. The typical female characters we see are so limited. Where's the creativity? Unfortunately it's because the flipside is that what's not PC is stifling it. "I can't think of any good ways to have a female character except, oh! let's give Mikey a girlfriend" In fact, the problem with racism, sexism, homophobia and all prejudices is they are all essentially different cases of severe tunnel vision. Why would we make this character "x race/gender/etc" if they aren't "x stereotype" is the kind of thinking presented here. Seeing characters who don't fit into a stereotype is more interesting and creative because that character could be anything. Saying female characters need a reason to be introduced to the show is what's limiting, and there's no need for it. People never say a male character needs a reason to be introduced. It doesn't feel shoehorned that a majority of the male characters we see didn't need to be male. That's the heart of the inequality here. Not the number of female characters, but how they are considered differently than male ones. The number is simply a symptom of that.

As to the idea that not every show can perfectly represent everyone and every group. You're right, it wouldn't be natural or even possible. But here's the thing... As opposed to maybe other social groups, when it comes to women, they're kind of... everywhere. To say having more than 2 female characters without a "reason" would be shoehorning, that'd be like walking into a restaurant and seeing more than 2 women in a room full of men and thinking, "Whoa, that's weird.... I wonder what's going on?" This is New York City not an alien planet. A female foot soldier wouldn't be uncreative. A female mutant wouldn't be uncreative. It would be the opposite because we haven't seen that at all.

Girls can relate to male characters, obviously and the reverse is true. Yes, traits like courage, cowardice, humor are all universal. However, being a "girl" is still also a part of their identity. So if a girl's favorite character is Donatello, you could ask "why would you pick Donnie? you obviously chose wrong." But you could also ask, "does this character make you feel like being a girl is ok?" And sadly the answer is no. We can debate how important it is, but I'm just trying to clarify this point. Maybe she feels good that Donnie is smart and she wants to be smart too. Positive, right? Nothing wrong with wanting to give girls a little more opportunity to feel like she wants to be a girl too. Boys have more than enough characters that can make them feel like it's ok (if not better) to be a boy.

There are many sincere folks on here that want to understand, so please accept that there's nothing wrong with wanting better. You can enjoy a show and wish it were better. As for how people behave, I can't speak for that.

Nah, there's nothing wrong with wanting more. I want Bishop to show up in the show, I love that guy. I just think it's wrong criticize the creators because they didn't do what I wanted. I don't see the lack of female representation in a single work of fiction as being detrimental to all of society. I like variety in my stories. I don't want every single book I read to follow a set rule of equal gender. That sounds like some bland, dystopian nightmare.

I like to write. I don't sit down and do an outline for a story and tick off how many of each particular group is covered before I write it, though. That would be crazy, no artist would do that. People create what they want to create and I think it's fine to want more. But that's your story, not Ciro Nieli's. Let him tell his the way he wants to. You can always change the channel and watch something you like more. :D

[Matches Malone]

Nah, there's nothing wrong with wanting more. I want Bishop to show up in the show, I love that guy. I just think it's wrong criticize the creators because they didn't do what I wanted. I don't see the lack of female representation in a single work of fiction as being detrimental to all of society. I like variety in my stories. I don't want every single book I read to follow a set rule of equal gender. That sounds like some bland, dystopian nightmare.

I like to write. I don't sit down and do an outline for a story and tick off how many of each particular group is covered before I write it, though. That would be crazy, no artist would do that. People create what they want to create and I think it's fine to want more. But that's your story, not Ciro Nieli's. Let him tell his the way he wants to. You can always change the channel and watch something you like more. :D

Most of my point though, was not that Ciro's not doing something I personally want. It's that this problem directly relates to creativity too. When I see a stereotypical character, I don't just think, "this is so wrong." I probably will, but I'm also thinking, "this is so boring." Girl in distress? Again? Tough street-smarts black guy? Meh... Ciro and the whole crew will write the stories they want, which have been overall, super fun. And they have every right to. I'm just saying the stories would be even better and interesting with a little more diversity. And there's obviously a point where you do think about, "ok, how's this character going to look? what's his/her background?" How much more diversity? Who knows. 51% male and 49% male, you most likely won't hear anything from me. Even 60/40. But 2 female characters out of hundreds? I don't think that's necessarily a nitpick just because others may not care.

EDIT: I think Bishop is a pretty interesting character too that just fits so naturally into the TMNT universe. He could've been a female too... :P

[Vicky82]

I'm female and this is my opionion.

I agree that TMNT has enough female characters (April and Karai). Both OT and 2K3 didn't have many females in it. If they put any few new minor female characters in the show then i'm not bothered.

Ok on the 'don't want the female more powerful than males in a boys show' I agree with it's like someone saying they don't want males more powerful than females in a girl's show' April has never been powerful female character in all incarnations of TMNT (unless she was in Mirage or Archie Comics) She wasn't in every single episode in 2K3.

Ok that's my opinion and it's not something i'm going to lose sleep over.

[Matches Malone]

I'm just kinda bummed because the writing and voice acting is sooo good. The IDW comic has better diversity and plots but the writing is sooo bland... Guess you really can't have your cake and eat it too.

[plastroncafe]

For everything else there's Fanfiction.net/ArchiveOfOurOwn.

[Konchadunga]

But 2 female characters out of hundreds? I don't think that's necessarily a nitpick just because others may not care.


Wait; hundreds? I'm reasonably sure there aren't hundreds of characters in this show. I don't see why there need to be, either. The given directive, as it looks to be, is that they adapt characters who were already in the license before. This means April and Karai are obvious; such people as Irma and Renet are less obvious, but possible. Still, there's no denying that most of these past characters are male. Let's remember that. The show isn't going out of its way to ostracize females, but fanservice to the base almost necessitates many characters being male. If he actually turned Bebop and Rocksteady female, that would be stupid.

[CyberCubed]

I'm just kinda bummed because the writing and voice acting is sooo good. The IDW comic has better diversity and plots but the writing is sooo bland... Guess you really can't have your cake and eat it too.

IDW's problem is their Turtles are bland, everyone else is OK.

[demonsweat]

Most of my point though, was not that Ciro's not doing something I personally want. It's that this problem directly relates to creativity too. When I see a stereotypical character, I don't just think, "this is so wrong." I probably will, but I'm also thinking, "this is so boring." Girl in distress? Again? Tough street-smarts black guy? Meh... Ciro and the whole crew will write the stories they want, which have been overall, super fun. And they have every right to. I'm just saying the stories would be even better and interesting with a little more diversity. And there's obviously a point where you do think about, "ok, how's this character going to look? what's his/her background?" How much more diversity? Who knows. 51% male and 49% male, you most likely won't hear anything from me. Even 60/40. But 2 female characters out of hundreds? I don't think that's necessarily a nitpick just because others may not care.

EDIT: I think Bishop is a pretty interesting character too that just fits so naturally into the TMNT universe. He could've been a female too... :P


Nothing wrong with that. You'll find opinions all across this section of the forum having to do with artistic or creative choices. And we're going differ in our opinions (I think Xever is incredibly unique, for instance). I certainly would not mind seeing more females in the show myself. The problem lies, I believe, when we start implying that the show is not up to some sort of societal standard, implying sexism or misrepresentation of women. That's accusing the creators of Keeping Women Down, and that's offensive to call someone out on that, whether you think they intend it or not. That kind of thing is going way too far in my book. :ohwell:

Ciro seems like a stand-up guy, he's handling it with class, but the guy and his team are under the constant scrutiny of the fans. Nobody likes to admit it, but criticism hurts. It doesn't matter who you are. I'm sorry to see a small section of the fandom behave so badly, because it really doesn't represent the majority of us.

[turtletoons81]

Wait; hundreds? I'm reasonably sure there aren't hundreds of characters in this show. I don't see why there need to be, either. The given directive, as it looks to be, is that they adapt characters who were already in the license before. This means April and Karai are obvious; such people as Irma and Renet are less obvious, but possible. Still, there's no denying that most of these past characters are male. Let's remember that. The show isn't going out of its way to ostracize females, but fanservice to the base almost necessitates many characters being male. If he actually turned Bebop and Rocksteady female, that would be stupid.

honestly since some people on tumblr called ciro a sexist douche yes i'm not kidding he might have gone his way to please those people by making rocksteady and bebop into female's.....sigh...

[Martin]

honestly since some people on tumblr called ciro a sexist douche yes i'm not kidding he might have gone his way to please those people by making rocksteady and bebop into female's.....sigh...

Nah, it was just good old sarcasm. Though if he really did that'd be hilarious.

[Matches Malone]

Wait; hundreds? I'm reasonably sure there aren't hundreds of characters in this show. I don't see why there need to be, either. The given directive, as it looks to be, is that they adapt characters who were already in the license before. This means April and Karai are obvious; such people as Irma and Renet are less obvious, but possible. Still, there's no denying that most of these past characters are male. Let's remember that. The show isn't going out of its way to ostracize females, but fanservice to the base almost necessitates many characters being male. If he actually turned Bebop and Rocksteady female, that would be stupid.

I was more referencing Ciro saying something about having "hundreds" of characters in mind to put into the show. I'm sure if you even stack it up against the characters on the show so far (supporting, background, etc) it would be staggering. But you have a totally valid point about fanservice. However, it is still besides the point that there are more than enough easy opportunities to incorporate women. Random Purple Dragon members? I actually liked that they had an Asian guy in it. An easy example of how there was no "reason" for him to be Asian and it wasn't "shoehorned." Yet it makes the world a little bigger.

Nothing wrong with that. You'll find opinions all across this section of the forum having to do with artistic or creative choices. And we're going differ in our opinions (I think Xever is incredibly unique, for instance). I certainly would not mind seeing more females in the show myself. The problem lies, I believe, when we start implying that the show is not up to some sort of societal standard, implying sexism or misrepresentation of women. That's accusing the creators of Keeping Women Down, and that's offensive to call someone out on that, whether you think they intend it or not. That kind of thing is going way too far in my book. :ohwell:

Ciro seems like a stand-up guy, he's handling it with class, but the guy and his team are under the constant scrutiny of the fans. Nobody likes to admit it, but criticism hurts. It doesn't matter who you are. I'm sorry to see a small section of the fandom behave so badly, because it really doesn't represent the majority of us.

I appreciate the civil replies. As far as the accusations and implications, they certainly are lofty and sensitive in nature. In the big picture, is TMNT a main source of "keeping women down"? Nah, I don't think anyone is saying that or even implying that. But it's a part of the kind of thinking that is and I hate to see it that in TMNT no matter how small. So yeah, in the quest for equality, I wouldn't start here. But in a simple expression of disappointment about something I care about which is TMNT, a TMNT forum seems appropriate. Calling out something that can and should be better is something I would hope people would do for me, ideally in a civil non-internety way. I still am struggling with the appropriate way to respond if a friend makes a sexist or racist joke. They are good people, but they could stand to be better when it comes to some things. No one wants to feel like a racist or sexist, but the best way to not be? Be willing to look at yourself and root it out. The best way to address to friends? I have no idea beyond earnestly and reasonably bringing it up. And that's the thing about the example. We're all friends. We're all fans. At the heart of it, this is about making things better. Ciro is an amazing contributor to the heart of TMNT but he can be even better if he looked at female characters a little more progressively. Not going too far when I put that way, I don't think. I think the arguments being made are reasonable and important on a creative and social level.

[demonsweat]

Nah, it was just good old sarcasm. Though if he really did that'd be hilarious.

Someone should art that and send it to him. :P

I appreciate the civil replies. As far as the accusations and implications, they certainly are lofty and sensitive in nature. In the big picture, is TMNT a main source of "keeping women down"? Nah, I don't think anyone is saying that or even implying that. But it's a part of the kind of thinking that is and I hate to see that because I love TMNT, as we all do. So yeah, in the quest for equality, I wouldn't start here. But in a simple expression of disappointment about something I care about which is TMNT, a TMNT forum seems appropriate. Calling out something that can and should be better is something I would hope people would do for me, ideally in a civil non-internety way. I still am struggling with the appropriate way to respond if a friend makes a sexist or racist joke. They are good people, but they could stand to be better when it comes to some things. No one wants to feel like a racist or sexist, but the best way to not be? Be willing to look at yourself and root it out. The best way to address to friends? I have no idea beyond earnestly and reasonably bringing it up. And that's the thing about the example. We're all friends. We're all fans. At the heart of it, this is about making things better. Ciro is an amazing contributor to the heart of TMNT but he can be even better if he looked at female characters a little more progressively. Not going too far when I put that way, I don't think.

Eh, there's a few. Maybe not a "main" source, but a "contributing factor," which is bad enough, IMO. Sounded like Ciro got a bunch of hate mail too, which is unfortunate.

But yeah, I agree. Totally nothing wrong with wanting more. It's all in how you present it, I guess. No matter the topic, civil discussion is always good, whether it's between fans or fans and creators. :D I'd like to see other TMNT fans be a little more respectful in their approach, in the future. When sh*t like this blows up, it's embarrassing to the fandom (not to mention rational feminists) as a whole.

[Papenbrook]

:( I personally feel sorry for Ciro. I know he isn't a perfect person, but does he really deserve death threats and a negative petition, just because he stated ONE thing for probably a good reason? Seriously? My condolences go to him. I am deeply sorry.

[chrisdude]

What the feezy?!

Did the Shellshocked podcast stop using iTunes? I intended to follow the show, but I didn't know they put out an episode 3, much less 6...

[miru]

It's because while people do want more female characters in the show, there's nothing wrong with the cast being mostly male in a show like this.

It's tokenism. There aren't any gay people on Nick's TMNT (at least that we know), so is that homophobic too?

Nor any Native American characters.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I gotta disagree with that. It's great that there are shows with strong female characters, there should be. But why should every show fit a specific model? And why only women? Does Adventure Time accurately represent Asian people? Does Steven Universe have characters of different sexual orientations? What's the ratio of cats to dogs in Airbender, will my cat be offended watching with me?

Everyone wants to be represented. But that's not possible to do in every work of art. Over PC-ification stifles creativity. Let the work stand on it's own. I never understood how someone's enjoyment of something could be based solely on whether or not they feel personally, accurately portrayed within it.

If you have a story to tell, then go out and tell it. Don't expect someone else to do it for you. Rebecca Sugar is a good example. She worked hard to get where she is, to do the show she wanted to do. Let that inspire other women to do the same. I never liked this, "we shouldn't have to!" thing. You wanna change the world, sister, then get off your butt and do it. Crying sexism at every turn is not the way towards progress.

Ok, Adventure Time only has one human main character, the story made it clear so it's ok there "won't be asian/other race representation".

However, the show does have a female rainicorn and she speaks Korean. She's Jake's wife, but she's not burdened with a "just love interest" criticism because Adventure Time had other female characters who were not. Finn may have a crush on two of them, but fans can point out Marceline who didn't serve as a love interest, has good episode arcs, and interaction with the Ice King not requiring to be his girlfriend. And then there's the Fionna and Cake episodes.

AT is way leagues better than tmnt 2k12 and any recent cartoons really.

[BubblyShell22]

Nothing wrong with that. You'll find opinions all across this section of the forum having to do with artistic or creative choices. And we're going differ in our opinions (I think Xever is incredibly unique, for instance). I certainly would not mind seeing more females in the show myself. The problem lies, I believe, when we start implying that the show is not up to some sort of societal standard, implying sexism or misrepresentation of women. That's accusing the creators of Keeping Women Down, and that's offensive to call someone out on that, whether you think they intend it or not. That kind of thing is going way too far in my book. :ohwell:

Ciro seems like a stand-up guy, he's handling it with class, but the guy and his team are under the constant scrutiny of the fans. Nobody likes to admit it, but criticism hurts. It doesn't matter who you are. I'm sorry to see a small section of the fandom behave so badly, because it really doesn't represent the majority of us.

Totally agree with this, Sweaty. Couldn't have said it better myself. And I agree about some criticism being hurtful sometimes. Yes, it's okay to find flaws in things, but to out and out tell the guy that he's purposefully doing this because he hates women is horrible.

[Martin]

Totally agree with this, Sweaty. Couldn't have said it better myself. And I agree about some criticism being hurtful sometimes. Yes, it's okay to find flaws in things, but to out and out tell the guy that he's purposefully doing this because he hates women is horrible.

Let's not forget the whole 'bathe in your unworthy blood' thing. That clearly didn't cross any lines.

[BubblyShell22]

Yeah, that was definitely out of line as well.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Let's not forget the whole 'bathe in your unworthy blood' thing. That clearly didn't cross any lines.

Yes, because that thing totally invalidates the criticism and we should cry for Ciro now.

That's like saying Cybercubed represents this forum that made him leave.

I don't want Ciro fired, and that getting him fired was overboard. But that didn't change the fact there is a problem and people should talk about it.

[demonsweat]

Ok, Adventure Time only has one human main character, the story made it clear so it's ok there "won't be asian/other race representation".

However, the show does have a female rainicorn and she speaks Korean. She's Jake's wife, but she's not burdened with a "just love interest" criticism because Adventure Time had other female characters who were not. Finn may have a crush on two of them, but fans can point out Marceline who didn't serve as a love interest, has good episode arcs, and heartfelt episodes with the Ice King not requiring to be his girlfriend.

AT is way leagues better than tmnt 2k12 and any recent cartoons really.

Marceline had an abusive boyfriend. Plus she's got massive daddy issues. Every princess on the show is chased by the Ice King, therefore making every female character a love interest (except LSP, who is nearly as man-hungry as OT Irma). The two main characters are both male. The two current "main" female characters on the show were in a love triangle with one of the show's title male characters. There isn't a single female on the show that hasn't been involved in some sort of romantic/relationship drama or story arc.

So why does AT get a pass? Because the number of females is greater? Or because you like that show more?

I love AT too. I haven't been catching it lately because - funny enough - the whole Flame Princess relationship bs bored me and I fell away from it. But I think the female characters are fantastic. The princess is a scientist, the Vampire Queen is creepy and cool. Susan Strong is... strong. Rainicorn plays music. And of course there's Fiona and Cake, something I wish had it's own show. But even in F&C, the cat paired with Monochome, Fiona with Bubblegum... Ice Queen was all hot for Bubblegum. I mean, the whole show is pretty much Adventure/Romance.

[demonsweat]

Let's not forget the whole 'bathe in your unworthy blood' thing. That clearly didn't cross any lines.

Some people need to be put back in their cages. :roll:

[Martin]

Yes, because that thing totally invalidates the criticism and we should cry for Ciro now.

That's like saying Cybercubed represents this forum that made him leave.

I don't want Ciro fired, and that getting him fired was overboard. But that didn't change the fact there is a problem and people should talk about it.

I wasn't saying that. It's just that sometimes one person's overreaction can destroy a valid argument. If this was handled in a more civilized manner, maybe another interview could have been arranged with Ciro, or maybe someone could have asked him to clarify his stance by sending him an email or something.

Too late for that now.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Marceline had an abusive boyfriend. Plus she's got massive daddy issues. Every princess on the show is chased by the Ice King, therefore making every female character a love interest (except LSP, who is nearly as man-hungry as OT Irma). The two main characters are both male. The two current "main" female characters on the show were in a love triangle with one of the show's title male characters. There isn't a single female on the show that hasn't been involved in some sort of romantic/relationship drama or story arc.

So why does AT get a pass? Because the number of females is greater? Or because you like that show more?

I love AT too. I haven't been catching it lately because - funny enough - the whole Flame Princess relationship bs bored me and I fell away from it. But I think the female characters are fantastic. The princess is a scientist, the Vampire Queen is creepy and cool. Susan Strong is... strong. Rainicorn plays music. And of course there's Fiona and Cake, something I wish had it's own show. But even in F&C, the cat paired with Monochome, Fiona with Bubblegum... Ice Queen was all hot for Bubblegum. I mean, the whole show is pretty much Adventure/Romance.

Having an abusive boyfriend in which she left him for good anyway =/= a legitimate love interest. Having a pervy old man stalker after a girl =/= she's love interest. Come on now.

AT has pass because both. I like it, it has more girls and they're not afraid to show it, and some of their stories are really really mature. It doesn't insult children's intelligence.

Admit it, there are times in 2K12 it feels... immature. Remember the Metalhead episode the three turtles never thought of attacking the Kraang attached to it's head? Yeah, I'm sure I can't be the only one who thought they're ridiculous.

[DarthEmpress]

I posted my criticism to Ciro's comments on tumblr because I needed a place to vent; what he said was offensive and wrong to me. I did not, however, plan on it receiving the amount of attention it has or to spiral into extremists wanting him to be fired. I assumed only a few of my friends would respond and that would be it. Still, I'm glad that it reached him despite the fact that he doesn't seem all that affected by it.

[demonsweat]

Having an abusive boyfriend in which she left him for good anyway =/= a legitimate love interest. Having a pervy old man stalker after a girl =/= she's love interest. Come on now.

Marcy and the boyfriend lived together and were an item for some time, IIRC. I'd call that legit. As for Ice King... seriously? Isn't the whole argument here on the fact that Don's pervy stalking of April makes her a love interest by default?


AT has pass because both. I like it, it has more girls and they're not afraid to show it, and some of their stories are really really mature. It doesn't insult children's intelligence.

Admit it, there are times in 2K12 it feels... immature. Remember the Metalhead episode the three turtles never thought of attacking the Kraang attached to it's head? Yeah, I'm sure I can't be the only one who thought they're ridiculous.

Uh, okay. Don't see how that pertains to the discussion at hand. So if you liked this show better, then it wouldn't be sexist? Huh. :ohwell:

[Martin]

Having an abusive boyfriend in which she left him for good anyway =/= a legitimate love interest. Having a pervy old man stalker after a girl =/= she's love interest. Come on now.

AT has pass because both. I like it, it has more girls and they're not afraid to show it, and some of their stories are really really mature. It doesn't insult children's intelligence.

Admit it, there are times in 2K12 it feels... immature. Remember the Metalhead episode the three turtles never thought of attacking the Kraang attached to it's head? Yeah, I'm sure I can't be the only one who thought they're ridiculous.

Ciro did say during the podcast (which I wonder how many people actually listened to; not talking to anyone in particular btw, just a thought) that it's a rule in animation for kids shows to never have headshots. However, they do occasionally kick kraangs around and stuff-let's not forget donnie smashing one against a wall in operation breakout-so I don't really know how true that actually is...

The point is, it is immature cause it's sort of supposed to be like that. Other shows might have different aims, but this show's creators intended this one to be this way. I would also love for more in depth stories, but you know, the show isn't really for us. It's supposed to be fun, not constant drama. Besides, there is probably a TON of red tape at nickelodeon when it comes to dealing with more mature themes.

Truth is, we can all sit here and talk about this all we want, but it's their show. We can suggest changes, but that's it. At the end of the day, they are just gonna do what they think it's best for the series. And honestly, so far, they've been doing a good job at it.

[Jester]

I keep reading that "Female characters need a reason to exist in a universe...but male characters don't..." but doesn't it depend on the media in question? Aren't most male characters in media directed at women purely there to move the story along and out of said plot convenience, and if they didn't play that role they wouldn't exist?

I'll go back to the friendship analogy. Most people are drawn to friends who have similar interests/backgrounds. Does it make you a misogynist/misandrist/racist/homophobic if your circle of friends is rather homogeneous?

[Avatar Yuffie]

Marcy and the boyfriend lived together and were an item for some time, IIRC. I'd call that legit. As for Ice King... seriously? Isn't the whole argument here on the fact that Don's pervy stalking of April makes her a love interest by default?




Uh, okay. Don't see how that pertains to the discussion at hand. So if you liked this show better, then it wouldn't be sexist? Huh. :ohwell:

So? Doesn't change they're no longer an item. She's single now. And do fans REALLY care about her douchebag bf and allow that to be the thing that shapes her character? If that's what you think about it that made you say "she's not a good female character because she has an ex", stay away from her fandom.

And I am actually offended you just compared Don to the Ice King. Really? I know you want to argue that 2k12 is the better show but REALLY?

[demonsweat]

So? Doesn't change they're no longer an item. She's single now. And do fans REALLY care about her douchebag bf and allow that to be the thing that shapes her character? If that's what you think about it, stay away from her fandom.

And I am actually offended you just compared Don to the Ice King. Really? I know you want to argue that 2k12 is the better show but REALLY?

That offends you? C'mon. :lol:

The fandom sh*tshorm going on right now also has to do with the fact that there are only 2 main females in the current TMNT show, and that both of them are in a love interest role. Love interests perpetrated by other men (Leo and Don) but not reciprocated. I don't see the difference in the two shows. IK and Don are nothing alike as characters, but the females in both are pretty much in the same role.

Marceline having a boyfriend, whether she kicked him to the curb or no, still makes her a love interest.

I think they're both great shows and hard to compare. AT has been on for many more seasons and has had some really amazing storytelling come from it. We're just getting started with 2k12. I love it, but will it be great after five seasons or so? Hope so. I haven't been disappointed yet. :D

[Avatar Yuffie]

You reminded me of the Apritello bashers who demonizes Don as the creepy Nice Guy trope. I remember putting up defense for the guy that his feelings are natural for a teen, and as long as he doesn't kidnaps her or forces her or feel he's obligated to be "the only one" for her and kill other people "who gets in the way", then his crush should not be treated as a bad thing.

If you find it funny and comparable to the Ice King, that's really sad. And you're a creep.


Marceline having a boyfriend, whether she kicked him to the curb or no, still makes her a love interest.

You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[SpiderFly]

I gotta disagree with that. It's great that there are shows with strong female characters, there should be. But why should every show fit a specific model? And why only women? Does Adventure Time accurately represent Asian people? Does Steven Universe have characters of different sexual orientations? What's the ratio of cats to dogs in Airbender, will my cat be offended watching with me?

Everyone wants to be represented. But that's not possible to do in every work of art. Over PC-ification stifles creativity. Let the work stand on it's own. I never understood how someone's enjoyment of something could be based solely on whether or not they feel personally, accurately portrayed within it.

If you have a story to tell, then go out and tell it. Don't expect someone else to do it for you. Rebecca Sugar is a good example. She worked hard to get where she is, to do the show she wanted to do. Let that inspire other women to do the same. I never liked this, "we shouldn't have to!" thing. You wanna change the world, sister, then get off your butt and do it. Crying sexism at every turn is not the way towards progress.

I'm not saying to fit every show into a cookie cutter mold. The reason why people are arguing for more shows that have strong female characters is because, overall, there is a severe lack of them. Just because I argue for more female representation doesn't mean I think others should get the short end of the stick. I'm not asking a lot. I'm asking for roughly 50% of our population. I wouldn't be so upset if I didn't see this wherever I go. With so many options for characters, we should be branching out more.

Yes, it's not possible to do everything but its not hard to have more variety in shows like these. It really isn't, and it should be welcomed. And you can enjoy something while being critical of how it treats other people.

Talking about it is doing something about it. Awareness. And I promote and encourage shows that do have strong characters and variety. And I hope to write/draw my own comics someday. Pointing out sexism where it does appear does help things. If you don't call someone out on negative behavior then it is assumed acceptable/welcomed. I don't have to be a five star chef to tell when something tastes bad.

[NinjaPug]

Oh, I would almost bet money that Renet will show up. And maybe sooner than we think.

First, thanks for the podcast. It sucks that the handling of female characters in this show is driving the entire discussion of the podcast but that's how the Internet works.

As far as your post above, it sounds like you know something we don't regarding Renet.

[demonsweat]

You reminded me of the Apritello bashers who demonizes Don as the creepy Nice Guy trope. I remember putting up defense for the guy that his feelings are natural for a teen, and as long as he doesn't kidnaps her or forces her or feel he's obligated to be "the only one" for her and kill other people "who gets in the way", then his crush should not be treated as a bad thing.

If you find it funny and comparable to the Ice King, that's really sad. And you're a creep.

Nah, you're missing that point entirely.

I love Don in this show. I even like the Don/April thing. I didn't think I would, but it's provided some good humor. I don't even mind the whole Don/April/Casey thing they're going into, I think it's great.



You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

This calls for a funny gif
http://i.imgur.com/J2zjYgA.gif

[Avatar Yuffie]

Ciro did say during the podcast (which I wonder how many people actually listened to; not talking to anyone in particular btw, just a thought) that it's a rule in animation for kids shows to never have headshots. However, they do occasionally kick kraangs around and stuff-let's not forget donnie smashing one against a wall in operation breakout-so I don't really know how true that actually is...

The point is, it is immature cause it's sort of supposed to be like that. Other shows might have different aims, but this show's creators intended this one to be this way. I would also love for more in depth stories, but you know, the show isn't really for us. It's supposed to be fun, not constant drama. Besides, there is probably a TON of red tape at nickelodeon when it comes to dealing with more mature themes.

Truth is, we can all sit here and talk about this all we want, but it's their show. We can suggest changes, but that's it. At the end of the day, they are just gonna do what they think it's best for the series. And honestly, so far, they've been doing a good job at it.

Well, at least Ciro mentioned it will be darker... which btw doesn't necessarily mean it makes stories good because grimdark stuff is so 90's, and Nickelodeon's a bit stiff on that.

[Andrew NDB]

Personally I'd rather -- as I told Ciro on the cast when we did it -- just continue to "do him." Meaning, do what he's doing (which has so far been highly entertaining to me) and not worry about what any particular part of the fandom is asking him to do, even if that is "We'd like to see more female characters in non-romantic interest roles."

Is Nick TMNT empowering for young women, in every way? Maybe not, but I don't know that a TMNT show -- even one for kids -- needs to do that. And it's not like my daughter isn't watching My Little Pony or something else right after or before TMNT to maybe "balance the scales."

Well, at least Ciro mentioned it will be darker... which btw doesn't necessarily mean it makes stories good because grimdark stuff is so 90's, and Nickelodeon's a bit stiff on that.

I think it's a neat approach. As the audience gets older, year by year, so does the material... makes sense to me, otherwise kids will just outgrow it.

And no one seriously believes it's ever going to lose its humor.

[Master Splinter]

I thought the podcast was excellent. That is all.

-ms

[demonsweat]

I'm not saying to fit every show into a cookie cutter mold. The reason why people are arguing for more shows that have strong female characters is because, overall, there is a severe lack of them. Just because I argue for more female representation doesn't mean I think others should get the short end of the stick. I'm not asking a lot. I'm asking for roughly 50% of our population. I wouldn't be so upset if I didn't see this wherever I go. With so many options for characters, we should be branching out more.

Yes, it's not possible to do everything but its not hard to have more variety in shows like these. It really isn't, and it should be welcomed. And you can enjoy something while being critical of how it treats other people.

Talking about it is doing something about it. Awareness. And I promote and encourage shows that do have strong characters and variety. And I hope to write/draw my own comics someday. Pointing out sexism where it does appear does help things. If you don't call someone out on negative behavior then it is assumed acceptable/welcomed. I don't have to be a five star chef to tell when something tastes bad.

It's great that you want to make comics, I wish you luck. :D That's what's great about having creative control of something, you get to do what you want. But let me ask you this: are you going to create your own stories with an equal number of men and women? What about POC, etc., etc. What will you do when an unrepresented group calls you "sexist" or "racist" because your work didn't represent them? Can you imagine the pressure in trying to please so many fans?

Again, saying you wish for something to be different =/= straight out calling something sexist. Ask for change, that's good. But let's not sling accusations of sexism just because something doesn't satisfy what you want.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Well, at least Ciro's aware girls actually watch his show now.

[turtletoons81]

Personally I'd rather -- as I told Ciro on the cast when we did it -- just continue to "do him." Meaning, do what he's doing (which has so far been highly entertaining to me) and not worry about what any particular part of the fandom is asking him to do, even if that is "We'd like to see more female characters in non-romantic interest roles."

Is Nick TMNT empowering for young women, in every way? Maybe not, but I don't know that a TMNT show -- even one for kids -- needs to do that. And it's not like my daughter isn't watching My Little Pony or something else right after or before TMNT to maybe "balance the scales."



I think it's a neat approach. As the audience gets older, year by year, so does the material... makes sense to me, otherwise kids will just outgrow it.

And no one seriously believes it's ever going to lose its humor.

heck ciro said on cowabunga corner he didn't wanted to compare it to other show's like the ot or 2k3 since he want's a show that's entertaining on it's own and honestly he's right,the guy has gotten alot of crap for what he might have misunderstood on his own thought's and literally how long have we gone through this whole fanbase threaten's creator in each one alot heck some people left the fanbase because of the sh*tstorm that cause yesterday podcast.

[CyberCubed]

Ciro said that towards the end of Season 2 they got much darker and he had execs from Nickelodeon giving him concerns that the show was getting a bit adult.

I think that's fantastic. Makes me think the later Season 2 eps will be incredible.

[Avatar Yuffie]

First, thanks for the podcast. It sucks that the handling of female characters in this show is driving the entire discussion of the podcast but that's how the Internet works.



To be fair, that "lack of girls" thing had been a complaint since season 1. Also didn't help April wasn't handled well either.

It just collected and exploded. Can't say it wasn't foreseen.

[demonsweat]

Well, at least Ciro's aware girls actually watch his show now.

Pff. Yeah. He's also aware that a chunk of them are nutty enough to send him death threats over a cartoon show. Talk about poor representation. :trolleye:

[CyberCubed]

Pff. Yeah. He's also aware that a chunk of them are nutty enough to send him death threats over a cartoon show. Talk about poor representation. :trolleye:

Yeah but those people are 20+ year old females with too much time on their hands...not the 6-10 year old girls watching who are the actual target audience.

[SpiderFly]

It's great that you want to make comics, I wish you luck. :D That's what's great about having creative control of something, you get to do what you want. But let me ask you this: are you going to create your own stories with an equal number of men and women? What about POC, etc., etc. What will you do when an unrepresented group calls you "sexist" or "racist" because your work didn't represent them? Can you imagine the pressure in trying to please so many fans?

Again, saying you wish for something to be different =/= straight out calling something sexist. Ask for change, that's good. But let's not sling accusations of sexism just because something doesn't satisfy what you want.

When I create comics I'm going to introduce readers to as much variety as possible. I may focus on one specific character but I'm going to imply a larger world with different people. I don't have to represent everyone but imply a world that says its has things that are different and that that's okay and celebrated. I would welcome someone pointing out anything sexist/racist in my work. That gives me the opportunity to change it.

It is sexist. It isn't blatant because I don't think Ciro intended to be sexist but it's there in a small way that kids are smart enough to pick up on. Some have taken this out of proportion. To say he is a bad man and should be fired is overkill. But to also say people shouldn't be upset is also overkill.

[Jester]

I'm just gonna leave this here...take it as you see fit:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/10450463/Bechdel-test-is-damaging-to-the-way-we-think-about-film.html

[Avatar Yuffie]

I'm just gonna leave this here...take it as you see fit:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/10450463/Bechdel-test-is-damaging-to-the-way-we-think-about-film.html

Also check this.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Bechdel_test

Passing or failing the test is not an ironclad guarantee of well-rounded, feminist, characterisation but it is indicative of the problems of token women characters. A vast amount of geeky media fails the test.

A clever author can have their female characters pass the test, but subjected to misogynistic themes.

Also check TV Tropes
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/TheBechdelTest

[Matches Malone]

I keep reading that "Female characters need a reason to exist in a universe...but male characters don't..." but doesn't it depend on the media in question? Aren't most male characters in media directed at women purely there to move the story along and out of said plot convenience, and if they didn't play that role they wouldn't exist?

I'll go back to the friendship analogy. Most people are drawn to friends who have similar interests/backgrounds. Does it make you a misogynist/misandrist/racist/homophobic if your circle of friends is rather homogeneous?

Kind of a hopeless plea, but folks need to stop being defensive and get off the binary "sexist/not sexist" label. There are people on both sides that simply can't let things be a little more complex than that.

As for male characters in women-oriented media (I don't know about most, I don't consume it), sure there are plenty of 2 dimensional love interest male characters. Aren't they boring? But maybe it does provide an alternative to how everything else is so skewed the other way. Does the fact that this problem exists for both genders make it okay? Nah. Of course there are problematic portrayals of men in media. Does the fact that this problem exists for both genders cancel out the fact that one gender in particular is way more subject to it? Nah. This is the part that I think most people have a hard time getting. Sexism/racism/etc isn't just one individual's attitude toward their gender or race. It's the overall culture. If someone writes me off as something just because I'm a man, okay, that's no good obviously. But do I face that everywhere everyday? Do I expect someone to make catcalls to me just for walking down the street? Or see that no one in 300 years has found a person of my gender worthy of being elected as president? And so freakin' on. We all face prejudice. You can find any counter-example of a white person, a rich person, a man, or any other dominant social group in our country suffering from prejudice because there are 300+ million people, but it is not even close to the same scale. That's why they are the dominant group. Men do not live in the same world as women. Period. If you are sincere, you would not act like equality means that we are all suffering the same problems on the same scale.

The friendship analogy doesn't quite work in my opinion, though I think it is important to think on. Yes, we are drawn to those with similar interests, but consciously or actively narrowing your view and scope of friends isn't good. I'm not going to go on about labels of sexist or racist, but I will say that if you do not know anyone of color, you are more likely to be ignorant and vulnerable to racist ideas. Doesn't that only make sense? You're not a bad person for it, but it is good to have diversity in your life too because ignorance isn't helping you just because it's comfortable. Remember that ignorance isn't the same as stupidity. I'm not judging anyone for it, I just think an acknowledgment is important so we know which direction we want to go. Regarding race and other minorities, I know folks who lived in places like Wyoming or Idaho or even parts of California where you simply never encountered any minorities. They sure learned a lot when they finally did. So I'm not here to call anyone anything, but I am willing to say: go and meet people different from yourself if you can. Lots of them. They don't have to be your best friends, but you can learn a lot from them. Until then, know that you are at a disadvantage in resources and first hand experience.

[Electric]

I'm just gonna leave this here...take it as you see fit:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/10450463/Bechdel-test-is-damaging-to-the-way-we-think-about-film.html

Perfect. April, karai. Have their own little feud going on. "Why are you special?" "You lost your mother too?" That doesn't sound like talking about a man.

[SpiderFly]

Kind of a hopeless plea, but folks need to stop being defensive and get off the binary "sexist/not sexist" label. There are people on both sides that simply can't let things be a little more complex than that.

As for male characters in women-oriented media (I don't know about most, I don't consume it), sure there are plenty of 2 dimensional love interest male characters. Aren't they boring? But maybe it does provide an alternative to how everything else is so skewed the other way. Does the fact that this problem exists for both genders make it okay? Nah. Of course there are problematic portrayals of men in media. Does the fact that this problem exists for both genders cancel out the fact that one gender in particular is way more subject to it? Nah. This is the part that I think most people have a hard time getting. Sexism/racism/etc isn't just one individual's attitude toward their gender or race. It's the overall culture. If someone writes me off as something just because I'm a man, okay, that's no good obviously. But do I face that everywhere everyday? Do I expect someone to make catcalls to me just for walking down the street? Or see that no one in 300 years has found a person of my gender worthy of being elected as president? And so freakin' on. We all face prejudice. You can find any counter-example of a white person, a rich person, a man, or any other dominant social group in our country suffering from prejudice because there are 300+ million people, but it is not even close to the same scale. That's why they are the dominant group. Men do not live in the same world as women. Period. If you are sincere, you would not act like equality means that we are all suffering the same problems on the same scale.

The friendship analogy doesn't quite work in my opinion, though I think it is important to think on. Yes, we are drawn to those with similar interests, but consciously or actively narrowing your view and scope of friends isn't good. I'm not going to go on about labels of sexist or racist, but I will say that if you do not know anyone of color, you are more likely to be ignorant and vulnerable to racist ideas. Doesn't that only make sense? You're not a bad person for it, but it is good to have diversity in your life too because ignorance isn't helping you just because it's comfortable. Remember that ignorance isn't the same as stupidity. I'm not judging anyone for it, I just think an acknowledgment is important so we know which direction we want to go. Regarding race and other minorities, I know folks who lived in places like Wyoming or Idaho or even parts of California where you simply never encountered any minorities. They sure learned a lot when they finally did. So I'm not here to call anyone anything, but I am willing to say: go and meet people different from yourself if you can. Lots of them. They don't have to be your best friends, but you can learn a lot from them. Until then, know that you are at a disadvantage in resources and first hand experience.

This so much.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Kind of a hopeless plea, but folks need to stop being defensive and get off the binary "sexist/not sexist" label. There are people on both sides that simply can't let things be a little more complex than that.

As for male characters in women-oriented media (I don't know about most, I don't consume it), sure there are plenty of 2 dimensional love interest male characters. Aren't they boring? But maybe it does provide an alternative to how everything else is so skewed the other way. Does the fact that this problem exists for both genders make it okay? Nah. Of course there are problematic portrayals of men in media. Does the fact that this problem exists for both genders cancel out the fact that one gender in particular is way more subject to it? Nah. This is the part that I think most people have a hard time getting. Sexism/racism/etc isn't just one individual's attitude toward their gender or race. It's the overall culture. If someone writes me off as something just because I'm a man, okay, that's no good obviously. But do I face that everywhere everyday? Do I expect someone to make catcalls to me just for walking down the street? Or see that no one in 300 years has found a person of my gender worthy of being elected as president? And so freakin' on. We all face prejudice. You can find any counter-example of a white person, a rich person, a man, or any other dominant social group in our country suffering from prejudice because there are 300+ million people, but it is not even close to the same scale. That's why they are the dominant group. Men do not live in the same world as women. Period. If you are sincere, you would not act like equality means that we are all suffering the same problems on the same scale.

The friendship analogy doesn't quite work in my opinion, though I think it is important to think on. Yes, we are drawn to those with similar interests, but consciously or actively narrowing your view and scope of friends isn't good. I'm not going to go on about labels of sexist or racist, but I will say that if you do not know anyone of color, you are more likely to be ignorant and vulnerable to racist ideas. Doesn't that only make sense? You're not a bad person for it, but it is good to have diversity in your life too because ignorance isn't helping you just because it's comfortable. Remember that ignorance isn't the same as stupidity. I'm not judging anyone for it, I just think an acknowledgment is important so we know which direction we want to go. Regarding race and other minorities, I know folks who lived in places like Wyoming or Idaho or even parts of California where you simply never encountered any minorities. They sure learned a lot when they finally did. So I'm not here to call anyone anything, but I am willing to say: go and meet people different from yourself if you can. Lots of them. They don't have to be your best friends, but you can learn a lot from them. Until then, know that you are at a disadvantage in resources and first hand experience.

Agreed. Thank you.

[plastroncafe]

I posit that Bechdel is as damaging to Film as the BMI is damaging to Overall Health.

It's a measure of ration and little else.

I don't think it should be an end all/be all measure of worth or the merit of a movie/piece of fiction, but rather it serves to illustrate a pernicious trend in our popular culture.

There are tons of good things out there that don't get a pass, just as there are tons of less than great things that do.

Perfect. April, karai. Have their own little feud going on. "Why are you special?" "You lost your mother too?" That doesn't sound like talking about a man.

No it doesn't, and I reference that very scene in the Podcast right before I ask if there'll be another like it in Season 2.

[The Big Bad]

I'm like a day behind on this thread--so many comments.

Andrew, a question for you: Ciro said that he's basing a chunk of the show on the mirage comics. How many female characters ARE there in that universe?

This whole female character controversy is getting a bit overblown, I think. We're only in the beginning of season two of this show. We have NO idea what Ciro's got up his sleeve. His ideas may change over time - he may simply be misleading us. We can't predict what he's going to come up with in the future. And he CAN'T tell us EVERYthing... he's created Great female characters so far.. Does that mean nothing?

Ya know, everyone treated Ciro like this when he first started sharing details about the new show a couple years back: Ciro's terrible, he doesn't care about the viewers, he's destroyed April, he's childhood-raping the fandom... and now many of the same people who cried foul are loving the show.

The fans are doing the same thing All Over Again. A knee-jerk reaction to something they haven't even Seen yet.

Personally, I will not label him or anybody as sexist or 'he-man-woman-hater' or whatever. He's got a plan, he can't tell us everything... And really, I don't want a female character just so that the vagina-to-penis ratio is closer to equal. I want a female character that is well-written with a good backstory AS LONG as it fits into the storyline.

Not as many there are male characters, to be sure, but still considerably more than have been shown here. Even if we count only the ones appearing in Volume one—which by the end told roughly the same amount of stories the Nick series will tell by the end of seaon 2--I can name Tang Shen, April, Lonae, Renet, Ananda, Jhanna, Moriah, Tai, Radical, Lucindra, Savanti Juliet, April's friend from that Egyptian story, the girl from the Mark Martin stories, the fish woman from “Sons of the Silent Age”, Hamato Yoshi's niece, Robyn, Karai, Karai's Daughter, Gabrielle, Shadow, and Casey's mother. Even taking away characters from the stories that are definitively apocryphal, you still have considerably more characters.

No, Ciro can't tell us everything...and yet, the question could have been answered with a simple “yes” or “no”. Heck, we're fairly certain Irma will appear in some capacity soon, and he still didn't answer “yes”, which strongly suggests that her appearance will be no more substantive that Rahzar and Tokka's was in Turtles Forever.

And here's why his creative philosophy is sexist: he sees men as the default. When he and the team were creating Bradford, Xever, Murakami, Snakeweed, and all the other show-original characters, it never occurred to him that he could make any of them female, or thought of it and decided not to (almost) every single time. He needs a reason to make a character female, but no reason to make a character male. And even when he has tons of reasons to do so—he still won’t do it.





Now that we're talking about April, I'd like to address Ciro's point about how when there's a female character in a show, she runs the risk of being too powerful. I agree that's happened sometimes as of late. In earlier shows, like the Fred Wolf series, females were usually barred from action roles, and this has created a situation of resentment where we've gone the opposite direction. For example, The Powerpuff Girls and Kim Possible, where it seems the importance of feminism alone is enough to make girls invincible, which actually makes them less relatable to actual women. Naturally, those are comedies, but there's also Transformers Animated, which gave Sari Sumdac way too much power without providing any explanation, and to an extent, even the 4Kids show, which gave April just a bit too many talents. It's really not often you get somebody who can function as a brainy computer nerd, a ninja, and a jungle warrior, all in one. I mean; Batman can, but he's the star of his series. So there really is a risk of female characters becoming Mary Sues.

While the phenomenon you mention is to a degree a true one, it is not a cause, but a direct result from the fact that shows tend to have very few female characters. It’s much easier to find a balance when women get to be individuals rather than ambassadors for their whole gender, and that can only happen when there are lots of them—note how it was much less of a problem in Avatar: The Last Airbender despite the fact that Katara, Toph, and Azula were masters of their respective bending disciplines, and better than Aang was at them.

Tumblr fans = some of the worst fans :trolleye:

As someone who posts both here and then, the insult has been noted; you are the salt of the Earth. You are aware that several people here have Tumblr accounts, right? And that this includes at least one artist directly affiliated with the TMNT—one considered a fan-favorite?

I agree. And I'd love to see more IPs with great female characters. But, consider this: is it fair to demonize or find fault with the creator(s) of a property for not representing a certain type of character, maybe one that they're not comfortable representing? It sounded to me like Ciro's tried to include females before and it hasn't always worked out the way he wanted it to (they end up overpowered, etc.) To me, that's him saying that this isn't one of his strengths, and so he's shying slightly away from doing it. I can't fault the guy for that. He's telling the story he wants to tell.

You write what you know. Some dudes write great women (Joss Whedon doesn't seem to struggle), some don't. I say, if you want something to change, go out and change it - create something of your own. It's good to open up discussion and inspire others, but I wouldn't necessarily come down on someone else for doing what they want to do. Isn't that what every artist strives for?

We are talking about half the [expletive] planet. If he can't be arsed to try and represent half the [expletive] planet because of their gender identity—and note that this is the only fundamental difference between men and women, with everything else being socially ingrained--then he's a damn poor writer.



He said Teen Titans floundered because its female characters get too powerful. My response to that should have been to add more female characters to the regular roster, not limit their numbers. If there's only one or two girl characters then those characters have to be EVERYTHING, but if you have a lot of female characters then they don't have to be everything to everyone.

[…]

Look, TMNT may be targeted for boys, but that doesn't mean that girls don't watch it. Andrew even mentioned that he watches the show with his little girl. And what will she see? A good white girl and a bad girl of color. Madonna or whore. Those are her options, and that's...troubling, to put it mildly.

Representation matters.

I'm gonna take these paragraphs--and those by Matches Malone-- and frame them on my wall, just you watch me.


Girls have no problem what so ever finding themselves in male characters. For generations we've had no choice in the matter. We should be happy for what we get. But...you ask one guy to identify with a female character, and the cries of sexism are deafening.

If you have no preference to male/female characters, then why should the gender of new characters matter at all? What would be the big deal if every mutant in season II was female?
Why is that not a possibility?

I have nothing to add here. This is just worth repeating.

i could really care less if every mutant from now on was female, or suddenly all these human females became important. but, it would have to work. and if ciro finds that it works better with most being males, then again, i could really care less.

Question: what exactly wouldn't have worked if all of the original characters created for the show had been female instead of male? What would the difference have been?

what im saying is that some shows are going to have more males, some more females. there is no need for every show to be equally split, cause it can take away from the show. so, if one show is better for having a fewer females, or a fewer males, then there should not be a rampant cry for it to be equal.

Except that's not true. Name another currently aiming cartoon aimed at women that's not My Little Pony.

as boys can find enjoyment out of shows with mostly females.

If that were true, the idea that the show should have more female characters would generally be received with a lot more apathy than it actually is, and there'd be far less articles about guys treating the idea of watching "chick flicks" like it were heading into a war zone.

Don't take this the wrong way, but is there gender parity in your personal relationships? For every female friend do you have a male friend to balance it out? I know it's a flawed example, but it seem "gender specific media" could be seen in a similar light.

Parity? No. Some groups I'm part of have more men than women, and other—for example, three of my four university classes—and personally, I'd be perfectly fine if that were the case with popular fiction. It's not. The great majority of works have more male characters than female characters. There's a limited list of works with actual gender parity, and the amount of works where women outnumber the men is even smaller.

[demonsweat]

I'm just gonna leave this here...take it as you see fit:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/10450463/Bechdel-test-is-damaging-to-the-way-we-think-about-film.html

Good read. The reddit link at the bottom was interesting too. Thanks d00d. :D

[Powder]

As someone who posts both here and then, the insult has been noted; you are the salt of the Earth. You are aware that several people here have Tumblr accounts, right? And that this includes at least one artist directly affiliated with the TMNT—one considered a fan-favorite?

You are aware that I have a link to my very own Tumblr in my sig, right? Just because I enjoy a site, doesn't mean I appreciate everyone there. Surely people say the same of this forum.
Get over it.

[Electric]

1. i didnt say it wouldnt have worked? i said ciro saw it fit to make them male? again it shouldnt matter. female/ male theyre characters that the creator felt necessary to include

2. winx club? found that in a second

3. you know? chick flicks guys dont like. but what we dont do is go on a rampage complaining about the lack of true male representation they provide and demand that it be fixed. no, what most guys do is either not watch it, or like it as it is

[Avatar Yuffie]

3. you know? chick flicks guys dont like. but what we dont do is go on a rampage complaining about the lack of true male representation they provide and demand that it be fixed. no, what most guys do is either not watch it, or like it as it is

It's because you had many male targeted cartoons filled with male main characters to choose from. Of course you won't rampage against two? three? girl cartoons that didn't represent your gender properly.

Seriously, don't act so benevolent. It's annoying.

[Vivi]

I can't help but think he still sneakily reads these boards from time to time.

[plastroncafe]

Chick Flicks. Nothing like the use of a belittling name for a film that skews towards the feminine to reinforce the notion that masculine is the default.

Everything else is: Other.

I actually do know people who complain about the male representation in movies, cartoons, and television shows. They're usually feminists.

[NinjaMan]

Chick Flicks. Nothing like the use of a belittling name for a film that skews towards the feminine to reinforce the notion that masculine is the default.

Everything else is: Other.

I actually do know people who complain about the male representation in movies, cartoons, and television shows. They're usually feminists.

Wow, you really think that term is bad? Tons of women use that term. I guess "Guys movie" is belittling as well? You really need to get off your soap box.

[Electric]

It's because you had many male targeted cartoons filled with male main characters to choose from. Of course you won't rampage against two? three? girl cartoons that didn't represent your gender properly.

Seriously, don't act so benevolent. It's annoying.

you seem to think i only like male based shows/movies, false. some female based ones are actually some of my favorites. i also dont believe tmnt is solely for males.
'
again, if a girl cannot enjoy a show thats focused around males, why watch it? its not that the show is flawed due to lack of female representation, its that girls see it as sexist, when its not. shows are not evenly distributed, thats fact. you should still be able to like/relate to characters of another gender. females/males dont need equal representation to appeal to both genders.

and i just want to make a point, every post-er on here thats spoke of a little girl that watches the show, says the girls have no problem liking the male characters. this show is for kids. not the adults that believe they arent being represented. living behind the idea that equality of gender is required in shows for you is fine. unfortunately for you, this show isn aimed at you. its for the kids. so if theyre happy, then the show is fine

[Avatar Yuffie]

you seem to think i only like male based shows/movies, false. some female based ones are actually some of my favorites. i also dont believe tmnt is solely for males.
'
again, if a girl cannot enjoy a show thats focused around males, why watch it? its not that the show is flawed due to lack of female representation, its that girls see it as sexist, when its not. shows are not evenly distributed, thats fact. you should still be able to like/relate to characters of another gender. females/males dont need equal representation to appeal to both genders.

and i just want to make a point, every post-er on here thats spoke of a little girl that watches the show, says the girls have no problem liking the male characters. this show is for kids. not the adults that believe they arent being represented. living behind the idea that equality of gender is required in shows for you is fine. unfortunately for you, this show isn aimed at you. its for the
kids. so if theyre happy, then the show is fine

Haha, I actually started to drift away from the show recently. So, I'm not that concerned how the cartoon will pander to me, alright? So don't concern yourself with how I feel.

The point is, if the current fans must ask "why the hell not" regarding "we can't have female characters in TMNT because reasons", let them.

[plastroncafe]

Wow, you really think that term is bad? Tons of women use that term. I guess "Guys movie" is belittling as well? You really need to get off your soap box.

Why stop now? I'm on a roll!

Actually, I don't sit up at night worrying about the use of "chick flick" because in my mind it refers to a specific genre of movie. The kind one sees on say "Lifetime." It really only bothers me when its definition is extended to encompass any movie with a large female cast or series of protagonists.

It's not a flattering term: chick flick.
Because they're seen as being of lesser quality than movies aimed at the gold standard target demographic: white males between the ages of 18 and 35.

It's why people are so surprised when movies like Titanic and Pretty Women do so well at the box office.

[Electric]

Haha, I actually started to drift away from the show recently. So, I'm not that concerned how the cartoon will pander to me, alright? So don't concern yourself with how I feel.

The point is, if the current fans must ask "why the hell not" regarding "we can't have female characters in TMNT because reasons", let them.

and theyre allowed. they should not, however, threaten the writer, call the show sexist, try to get ciro fired, ruin chances of ciro ever doing things like this, or jump to conclusions. theyre allowed to ask, but if ciro mispoke and really wasnt able to put into words what he meant without spoilers, this should not have gotten this out of hand.

im not trying to be benevolent, and my sincerest apologies if i bother you, but all this harsh criticism and attacking bothers me. so try not to act like this is an enormous problem thats ruining the show

[The Big Bad]

the way i see people taking this is that ciro put karai and april in to appease the need for females. which is wrong. he included them because they are necessary. they contribute. would aprils aunt really contribute to the turtles? maybe. is it necessary to them? no.

I'm going to yell here for a bit.

YES. SHE. IS.

Who April's aunt is should have defined April's arc in season 1, just like who Splinter and Shredder defines who the turtles and Karai are. Instead, we have a case where the series that is ostensibly about substitute parents doesn't deal with the only one of those relationships that features women in both roles and is a necessary part of their main female characters' story arc. Heck, we're more than one season in, and we don't have anything but the most general sense of what Kirby and April's relationship is like.


I keep reading that "Female characters need a reason to exist in a universe...but male characters don't..." but doesn't it depend on the media in question? Aren't most male characters in media directed at women purely there to move the story along and out of said plot convenience, and if they didn't play that role they wouldn't exist?

I don't think this is an especially helpful framing, because one could argue that that's true for all characters. That said, I don't think the situations are analogous. Shows like Gilmore Girls or Switched at Birth do have a fair amount of male characters in their casts, who play specific roles within episodes and the ongoing, more general role of being part of the universe.

More to the point, you're missing the point of the "reasons" argument. It's not that creators act as if female characters need a reason to appear and male characters don't--every character needs a reason to appear. The argument is that creators think characters--who has a reason to appear-- needs a reason to be female but don't need a reason to be male. There's a difference.


I'll go back to the friendship analogy. Most people are drawn to friends who have similar interests/backgrounds. Does it make you a misogynist/misandrist/racist/homophobic if your circle of friends is rather homogeneous?

This, I would say, is context-sensitive, and the answer depends a lot on how we're conditioned to look at certain activities. If one circle of friends is homogeneous? Then I'd say "not necessarily". However, people very rarely have just one circle of friends, and if all of them are equally homogeneous, the I would say the chances are rather likely that yes, there is an -ism or a -phobia at work.

Also, it's important to note that one can have female friends and still be sexist, have gay friends and still be homophobic, etc. There's a reason "some of my best friends are [X]" is considered a ridiculous defense.


You are aware that I have a link to my very own Tumblr in my sig, right? Just because I enjoy a site, doesn't mean I appreciate everyone there. Surely people say the same of this forum.
Get over it.

Ah, so you do know. :) Since I'm on the topic, I'd like to know...just, pray tell, would your reasons for thinking badly of them be? If you're going to insult me, I'd like to know why.

[Electric]

Why stop now? I'm on a roll!

Actually, I don't sit up at night worrying about the use of "chick flick" because in my mind it refers to a specific genre of movie. The kind one sees on say "Lifetime." It really only bothers me when its definition is extended to encompass any movie with a large female cast or series of protagonists.

It's not a flattering term: chick flick.
Because they're seen as being of lesser quality than movies aimed at the gold standard target demographic: white males between the ages of 18 and 35.

It's why people are so surprised when movies like Titanic and Pretty Women do so well at the box office.

you are wrong. its not. its used for romantic comedies that are assumed to revolve around love. example, in recent media, hunger games: entire story based around a girl, yet guys like it. its not a chickflick.

youre right chick flick is basically a genre. but no, its not ones that revolve around girls. it romantic movies.

[Avatar Yuffie]

and theyre allowed. they should not, however, threaten the writer, call the show sexist, try to get ciro fired, ruin chances of ciro ever doing things like this, or jump to conclusions. theyre allowed to ask, but if ciro mispoke and really wasnt able to put into words what he meant without spoilers, this should not have gotten this out of hand.

im not trying to be benevolent, and my sincerest apologies if i bother you, but all this harsh criticism and attacking bothers me. so try not to act like this is an enormous problem thats ruining the show

Agreed. That was uncalled for. I'll agree the way that anger was directed was the wrong way.

Unlike you guys, I don't feel sympathy for Ciro. He made those creative choices.

[Electric]

I'm going to yell here for a bit.

YES. SHE. IS.

Who April's aunt is should have defined April's arc in season 1, just like who Splinter and Shredder defines who the turtles and Karai are. Instead, we have a case where the series that is ostensibly about substitute parents doesn't deal with the only one of those relationships that features women in both roles and is a necessary part of their main female characters' story arc. Heck, we're more than one season in, and we don't have anything but the most general sense of what Kirby and April's relationship is like.


excuse me, but

NO. THATS. WRONG.

april was defined in season 1 by her desperate want to rescue her father. she loves him and truely cares for him. we know that by that being her goal in season one and the anger she has when hes mutated. we can see their close, she stays home with him after being rescued because hes terrified, and doesnt want to lose him again.

and the turtles do provide substantial growth for april. sure donnie hogged some time, but that was for donnie development, and after all, he is 1/4 of what the show is about, so thats fine. We see april as the stubborn determined loyal friend she is. shes not afraid to risk herself for her friends.

with april, the show isnt about "april and her relatives" the show is about "aprils relationship with the turtles.

[Electric]

Agreed. That was uncalled for. I'll agree the way that anger was directed was the wrong way.

Unlike you guys, I don't feel sympathy for Ciro. He made those creative choices.

and unlike some people here, i have no sympathy for the people who feel they arent fairly represented, because ciro is writing a great show, and if youll let a lack of representation ruin it, while the show isnt whats defining societys issues, then you dont need to watch it

[Avatar Yuffie]

and unlike some people here, i have no sympathy for the people who feel they arent fairly represented, because ciro is writing a great show, and if youll let a lack of representation ruin it, while the show isnt whats defining societys issues, then you dont need to watch it

You need a lollipop after this?

Sheesh, don't tell me what to do. I told you I'm losing interest with the show, alright?

[CyberCubed]

You need a lollipop after this?

Sheesh, don't tell me what to do. I told you I'm losing interest with the show, alright?

Wait, you're losing interest in the Nick show? So then why does this matter to you?

[Electric]

You need a lollipop after this?

Sheesh, don't tell me what to do. I told you I'm losing interest with the show, alright?

"you" referring to anyone that made this into a big deal, not really directed completely at you.

[demonsweat]

Tumblr fans = some of the worst fans :trolleye:

As someone who posts both here and then, the insult has been noted; you are the salt of the Earth. You are aware that several people here have Tumblr accounts, right? And that this includes at least one artist directly affiliated with the TMNT—one considered a fan-favorite?

You are aware that I have a link to my very own Tumblr in my sig, right? Just because I enjoy a site, doesn't mean I appreciate everyone there. Surely people say the same of this forum.
Get over it.

Same here. I like the people I follow, but tumblr is the worst community. Manufactured drama, 24/7.



I'm going to yell here for a bit.

YES. SHE. IS.

Who April's aunt is should have defined April's arc in season 1, just like who Splinter and Shredder defines who the turtles and Karai are. Instead, we have a case where the series that is ostensibly about substitute parents doesn't deal with the only one of those relationships that features women in both roles and is a necessary part of their main female characters' story arc. Heck, we're more than one season in, and we don't have anything but the most general sense of what Kirby and April's relationship is like.

More of the characters' parents in the show? Admit it, you helped Bay on the Transformers movies, didn't you? :P I'm glad you think Ciro is such a "poor writer." I guess that's why he has a hit TV show, and you have... a tumblr blog.

[Powder]

Same here. I like the people I follow, but tumblr is the worst community. Manufactured drama, 24/7.



This answers The Big Bad, who asked why I complained. A matter of opinion, of course.

[NinjaPug]

anyways, F*** that lame ass podcast with the BS questions.. here is the cowabunga corner interview: http://cowabungacorner.com/content/ccn-ciro-nieli-interview-2013

So Ciro basically said this has already been renewed past Season 3 internally but hasn't been officially announced for legal reasons. Cool cool cool.

[Jester]

Wait.....Ciro's first pitch for TMNT had a dead Splinter remember entirely in flash back?

Why aren't we talking about THIS!?

[Electric]

Wait.....Ciro's first pitch for TMNT had a dead Splinter remember entirely in flash back?

Why aren't we talking about THIS!?

Distraction.

I feel like that would've been great as well. But would've been a completely different show than this

[NinjaMan]

Same here. I like the people I follow, but tumblr is the worst community. Manufactured drama, 24/7.





More of the characters' parents in the show? Admit it, you helped Bay on the Transformers movies, didn't you? :P I'm glad you think Ciro is such a "poor writer." I guess that's why he has a hit TV show, and you have... a tumblr blog.

Demonsweat, you are one of my favorite posters:D Wish this post had a like button.

[NinjaMan]

Wait.....Ciro's first pitch for TMNT had a dead Splinter remember entirely in flash back?

Why aren't we talking about THIS!?

Can you imagine how many rats would be complaining about the lack of a rat in the show? I think the fall out would be to great. Especially with all the rats Donnie mentioned that live in NYC.

[Jester]

Can you imagine how many rats would be complaining about the lack of a rat in the show? I think the fall out would be to great. Especially with all the rats Donnie mentioned that live in NYC.

NinjaMan, you are one of my favorite posters:D Wish this post had a like button.

[NinjaMan]

NinjaMan, you are one of my favorite posters:D Wish this post had a like button.

LOL:lol::lol:

[Luckyday]

From hearing both sides of the argument, it's hard to agree with any of you guys but my two cents was all of it was taken way too personal on tumblr and with that being said, none podcasters should taken at fault here. If anything what happened was someone from tumblr took Ciro's words out of context, ran with it like a crazy rapid dog, and now everybody venting out their frustration on the podcasters. I swear every time someone make a well thought criticism on the new TMNT, we all lose our minds. It's freaking crazy! Anyway, I surprise that none of you guys have said anything about how Ciro mention the shortcomings of the show. Of all things, I would think Ciro would get a lot of trouble for mention that, particularly from the heads of the studio. That was kind of ballsy.

[Electric]

Can you imagine how many rats would be complaining about the lack of a rat in the show? I think the fall out would be to great. Especially with all the rats Donnie mentioned that live in NYC.

That was beautiful

[SpiderFly]

That was beautiful

You're comparing 50% of the population to rats.

[Avatar Yuffie]

You're comparing 50% of the population to rats.

Not surprised.

[NinjaPug]

Great, now posters are going to complain that you're comparing vermin to females.

[Martin]

Wait.....Ciro's first pitch for TMNT had a dead Splinter remember entirely in flash back?

Why aren't we talking about THIS!?

That would have been freaking awesome... well, there is always next time, haha.

Can we create like another thread for this where the topic of feminism doesn't have to be discussed? cause there were so many interesting things about that interview that are getting no time to shine because of this whole cluster****.

[turtletoons81]

Great, now posters are going to complain that you're comparing vermin to females.

oh the humanity what have we started...

[Avatar Yuffie]

Great, now posters are going to complain that you're comparing vermin to females.

Yeah, well that's what happens when fans think the girl thing was never a problem.

[Luckyday]

Originally Posted by Jester
Wait.....Ciro's first pitch for TMNT had a dead Splinter remember entirely in flash back?

Why aren't we talking about THIS!?
A little took dark but that would an awesome set up to do an adaptation of volume 4 from the Mirage comics.

[Martin]

A little took dark but that would awesome set up to do an adaptation of volume 4 from the Mirage comics.

Probably why they didn't go for it. However, you just gotta love how the guy's constantly pushing the limits of what he can do with the show to make it more serious.

[plastroncafe]

you are wrong. its not. its used for romantic comedies that are assumed to revolve around love. example, in recent media, hunger games: entire story based around a girl, yet guys like it. its not a chickflick.

youre right chick flick is basically a genre. but no, its not ones that revolve around girls. it romantic movies.

So...it's only chickflicks if guys don't like it?

and unlike some people here, i have no sympathy for the people who feel they arent fairly represented, because ciro is writing a great show, and if youll let a lack of representation ruin it, while the show isnt whats defining societys issues, then you dont need to watch it

Wow. That's one heck of a soundbite you've got there.

Wait.....Ciro's first pitch for TMNT had a dead Splinter remember entirely in flash back?

Why aren't we talking about THIS!?

Because people would rather bemoan how horrible us feminazis are when we do something outlandish like...ask for representation in popular culture.

Man that would have been an interesting take. I can just imagine the fanboy outcry on here if he'd gone that route. It might have rivaled the anger at the Third Toe!

Can you imagine how many rats would be complaining about the lack of a rat in the show? I think the fall out would be to great. Especially with all the rats Donnie mentioned that live in NYC.

And now women aren't human. Well, I guess I should have seen that coming.

[Electric]

Guys, it was a joke. Sorry, I was not comparing 50% of the population to rats. I jus thought it was clever.

Don't blow this out of proportion like people did with ciros comment

[demonsweat]

Demonsweat, you are one of my favorite posters:D Wish this post had a like button.

:fist: :D


Wait.....Ciro's first pitch for TMNT had a dead Splinter remember entirely in flash back?

Why aren't we talking about THIS!?
Can you imagine how many rats would be complaining about the lack of a rat in the show? I think the fall out would be to great. Especially with all the rats Donnie mentioned that live in NYC.

NinjaMan, you are one of my favorite posters:D Wish this post had a like button.

I love you guys. :lol:

On topic... if dead Splinter is somewhere on the table, I wonder if they'll end the show that way. Or kill him off in a later season?? That could be really cool, even though it pains me to say it. This is hands down my favorite version of him to date.

You're comparing 50% of the population to rats.

http://i.imgur.com/IDx0pfq.png

[NinjaMan]

Lol if you really think comparing women to vermin then you really missed the joke. But that isn't surprising.

[Luckyday]

Probably why they didn't go for it. However, you just gotta love how the guy's constantly pushing the limits of what he can do with the show to make it more serious.

I kind of want to see as a movie like one of those animated dc movies that you see on Netflicks. Take out all of parts that didn't make sense from volume 4 and you have my money.

[plastroncafe]

Guys, it was a joke. Sorry, I was not comparing 50% of the population to rats. I jus thought it was clever.

Don't blow this out of proportion like people did with ciros comment

You mean hold you accountable for the words that happen to tumble out of your mouth? Gosh, why would we ever want to do that?

[Jester]

VR9NbvTOfaU
Dear god....

[demonsweat]

Probably why they didn't go for it. However, you just gotta love how the guy's constantly pushing the limits of what he can do with the show to make it more serious.

Yeah I think he said things were going to get a lot darker towards the end of Season 02. I for one, am STOKED for that. :D


Lol if you really think comparing women to vermin then you really missed the joke. But that isn't surprising.

Yeah. There's been a few things going over heads in this thread. :roll:

[Electric]

So...it's only chickflicks if guys don't like it?



Wow. That's one heck of a soundbite you've got there.


And now women aren't human. Well, I guess I should have seen that coming.
Here I'll say it blatantly. Chick flicks are romantic movies. NOT movies that guys don't like, movies that are romances. Not based around females. Romances. Not saying guys can't like them. Romances. You catch on yet?

Trying to discuss with you is becoming obnoxious. You make false assumptions in a very pathetic way that you don't back up. If someone says something you have no response to, you resort to personal opinions on them, sarcastic comments or nitpicking things.

Obviously it was a joke, emphasizing how they think people are being ridiculous. He was not at all comparing females to rats. He was teasing at the people that are making a big deal out this, like yourself, and you are not female. So no not rats to females. Understood? Or do you have another sarcastically obnoxious response.

[Electric]

You mean hold you accountable for the words that happen to tumble out of your mouth? Gosh, why would we ever want to do that?

And no, I did take responsibility. I apologized. I am responsible for that. It wasn't really right, so I apologized. Want to try sarcasm again?

[Martin]

On topic... if I dead Splinter is somewhere on the table, I wonder if they'll end the show that way. Or kill him off in a later season?? That could be really cool, even though it pains me to say it. This is hands down my favorite version of him to date

I like him a lot, though I wish he would be more of a father figure to the guys. More protective of them I mean. Most of the time (at least for me) he comes across like he just doesn't care. Like he is missing that protective father thing other splinters had. Maybe they had to do that cause he is too OP to have him go around the streets with the guys. With that in mind, I really doubt they'll kill him off any time soon. The show kind of works as it is right now. However, since ciro said that he eventually wanted to give the series a definitive end, I suppose splinter dying is a very possible scenario. It really depends on what they want to do. It's all wild speculation at this point.

[NinjaMan]

I like him a lot, though I wish he would be more of a father figure to the guys. More protective of them I mean. Most of the time (at least for me) he comes across as he just doesn't care. Like he is missing that protective father thing other splinter's had. Maybe they had to do that cause he is too OP to have him go around the streets with the guys. With that in mind, I really doubt they'll kill him off any time soon. The show kind of works as it is right now. However, since ciro said that he eventually wanted to give the series a definitive end, I suppose splinter dying is a very possible scenario. It really depends on what they want to do. It's all wild speculation at this point.

Splinter reminds me of those hard nosed warrior type father that you would see in a Gladiator movie that tells his son to not come home until he's cared a bear with his bare hands at the age of 6.

[plastroncafe]

Here I'll say it blatantly. Chick flicks are romantic movies. NOT movies that guys don't like, movies that are romances. Not based around females. Romances. Not saying guys can't like them. Romances. You catch on yet?

So then why are they called Chick Flicks if they're merely romantic movies?

Trying to discuss with you is becoming obnoxious. You make false assumptions in a very pathetic way that you don't back up. If someone says something you have no response to, you resort to personal opinions on them, sarcastic comments or nitpicking things.


I guess we're evenly matched then.

Obviously it was a joke, emphasizing how they think people are being ridiculous. He was not at all comparing females to rats. He was teasing at the people that are making a big deal out this, like yourself, and you are not female. So no not rats to females. Understood? Or do you have another sarcastically obnoxious response.

Wait wait wait...I'm not? I'm not female?

[Electric]

So we are obviously not going to budge either way. Fair enough. We've argued the hell out of this. And I don't want to bother others. Feel free to pm if you want to discuss this further, but I'm going stop debating on here and focus on the rest of this podcast.

[Martin]

Can everyone just give it a rest already. Take your chill pills. Really, this is getting ridiculous. It started out as a women's rights thing alright, but now you are all just fighting each other. Is this really what this forum has come down to? Tumblr? *sigh*

[chrisdude]

I don't even understand the problem here. It's a show about four brothers. Why are there expectations about female representation, at all? Can a show not be about four boys?

[demonsweat]

I like him a lot, though I wish he would be more of a father figure to the guys. More protective of them I mean. Most of the time (at least for me) he comes across like he just doesn't care. Like he is missing that protective father thing other splinters had. Maybe they had to do that cause he is too OP to have him go around the streets with the guys. With that in mind, I really doubt they'll kill him off any time soon. The show kind of works as it is right now. However, since ciro said that he eventually wanted to give the series a definitive end, I suppose splinter dying is a very possible scenario. It really depends on what they want to do. It's all wild speculation at this point.

That's exactly what made me think that. It would be a pretty intense end to the show. The only time I remember him dying is in the later comics, but it wasn't very well done, IMO.

DB Splinter eh? :lol: I really like the fact that he's all discipline and hardass myself. But it would be cool to see some more bonding moments between him and the others.

[Martin]

I don't even understand the problem here. It's a show about four brothers. Why are there expectations about female representation, at all? Can a show not be about four boys?

noooooo.... sh*t here comes another 8 pages of comments...

[Luckyday]

I like him a lot, though I wish he would be more of a father figure to the guys. More protective of them I mean. Most of the time (at least for me) he comes across as he just doesn't care. Like he is missing that protective father thing other splinter's had. Maybe they had to do that cause he is too OP to have him go around the streets with the guys. With that in mind, I really doubt they'll kill him off any time soon. The show kind of works as it is right now. However, since ciro said that he eventually wanted to give the series a definitive end, I suppose splinter dying is a very possible scenario. It really depends on what they want to do. It's all wild speculation at this point.

It would so awesome if the last seasons, the Kraang made peace with the humans and reveal themselves to the world which would lead into a new age where aliens of different shapes and sizes would co exist with the humans. The turtles then wouldn't have a reason hide anymore and go fully topside. Not having Splinter around and seeing them how they integrated in society would be really interesting to see.

[Electric]

That's exactly what made me think that. It would be a pretty intense end to the show. The only time I remember him dying is in the later comics, but it wasn't very well done, IMO.

DB Splinter eh? :lol: I really like the fact that he's all discipline and hardass myself. But it would be cool to see some more bonding moments between him and the others.

I could see splinter dying as an end, but that could border on the darker side of tmnt. I think it could be a great ending, that maybe they're considering, but I'm not sure if nick would allow it:ohwell:

[Martin]

That's exactly what made me think that. It would be a pretty intense end to the show. The only time I remember him dying is in the later comics, but it wasn't very well done, IMO.

DB Splinter eh? :lol: I really like the fact that he's all discipline and hardass myself. But it would be cool to see some more bonding moments between him and the others.

I love DB splinter, don't get me wrong. But there are tons of times that he clearly should have been out helping them, and he just wasn't up for it. As I said before, he is too OP. In other incarnations they dealt with that by making him old and frail. Here though? he can kick ass no problem. But we never really got a good answer to why he doesn't help more. That's why I loved so much when april called him out on that on the finale. It was epic, haha.

[SpiderFly]

And no, I did take responsibility. I apologized. I am responsible for that. It wasn't really right, so I apologized. Want to try sarcasm again?

Rats aren't people. We aren't asking for everything in this whole universe(everything but the kitchen sink) to be crammed into this show. We are just asking for variety. We are asking for 1/2 of the people on this planet, who are notoriously under or misrepresented, so kids (boys/girls) can get the impression that difference is okay. That it is acceptable. That it is awesome.

But you're just kind of mocking that, like it's unimportant. But it's really important for a little boy's show. It really is.

[Martin]

It would so awesome if the last seasons, the Kraang made peace with the humans and reveal themselves to the world which would lead into a new age where aliens of different shapes and sizes would co exist with the humans. The turtles then wouldn't have a reason hide anymore and go fully topside. Not having Splinter around and seeing them how they integrated in society would be really interesting to see.

That's basically volume 4 of the mirage run. I doubt they'll ever be able to do something like that budget wise though. Too many characters.

[demonsweat]

I love DB splinter, don't get me wrong. But there are tons of times that he clearly should have been out helping them, and he just wasn't up for it. As I said before, he is too OP. In other incarnations they dealt with that by making him old and frail. Here though? he can kick ass no problem. But we never really got a good answer to why he doesn't help more. That's why I loved so much when april called him out on that on the finale. It was epic, haha.

Wasn't it implied that he was afraid of his past/running into the Shredder? Now he's afraid of confrontation with both Karai and Shredder.

[NinjaMan]

I'd be quite sad if Splinter died. :(

[Machias Banshee]

I'm eager to see more of the backstory between Splinter and Shredder. The old 'army buddies'-style photograph REALLY intrigues me... Splinter is my favorite character other than Mike, it'd break my heart to see this one get killed off.

There was a lot of mystical stuff in the 2K3 series.. Splinter communicating with Yoshi's spirit via Utrom-ball, sending him messages in his dreams. I am so curious to see if there will be some sort of aspect of that mixed into this series - could the ghost of Tang Shen make a cameo, send Karai hints of her past... or even confront Splinter about his hiding away and making the boys risk their lives alone so much?



Oh, thank you Big Bad for answering my question about Mirage characters. :)

~Machias

[plastroncafe]

Rats aren't people. We aren't asking for everything in this whole universe(everything but the kitchen sink) to be crammed into this show. We are just asking for variety. We are asking for 1/2 of the people on this planet, who are notoriously under or misrepresented, so kids (boys/girls) can get the impression that difference is okay. That it is acceptable. That it is awesome.

But you're just kind of mocking that, like it's unimportant. But it's really important for a little boy's show. It really is.

I starting to think this whole conversation would have been a little more nuanced and dare I say "adult" if female representation in the cartoons 80s and 90s were a bit more equitable. Alas, we'll just have to keep fighting and see what the next generation has to say. I'm patient. I mean...I've been having pretty much this exact same argument since I joined fandom 22 years ago.

I do have to say that my favorite part about the interview was hearing about the Mikey Test.

It's an unpopular fandom opinion, but I hate Dude!Mikey. With a passion that could fuel a thousand suns. It's one of the reasons why my favorite incarnations of the character is either Mirage or Live Action Movie.

So hearing Ciro talk about the Mikey Test really made me happy. Especially given the stuff that does get animated for him. Sheesh, I can only imagine the stuff that was in there BEFORE the editorial changes.

I'm actually really curious about what sorts of editorial pressures there are for this show in general. We heard all about the budgetary and time constraints, and a bit about the censorship (ie: no headshots...unless you put the faces in the belly. Which again, pretty awesome loophole there.)

At the New York Comic Con this year Bryan Konietzko, one of the Co-Creators of Avatar and Legend of Korra, gave a presentation that took the audience step by step through their animation process.

I'd love if the Nick Turtle people would do something similar. Most of Korra is hand drawn with some CG elements, and it'd be great to see the compare/contrast with a full CG show.

[Electric]

Rats aren't people. We aren't asking for everything in this whole universe(everything but the kitchen sink) to be crammed into this show. We are just asking for variety. We are asking for 1/2 of the people on this planet, who are notoriously under or misrepresented, so kids (boys/girls) can get the impression that difference is okay. That it is acceptable. That it is awesome.

But you're just kind of mocking that, like it's unimportant. But it's really important for a little boy's show. It really is.

I am sorry. Again this whole debate is getting out of hand here. If you want to keep discussing it, pm me. But I really just want to discuss the rest of the pod cast here, ok? There's so much more to talk about than just this.

[Martin]

Wasn't it implied that he was afraid of his past/running into the Shredder? Now he's afraid of confrontation with both Karai and Shredder.

Oh, yeah that's probably it. What a chicken (I was gonna use other term but for the sake of peace I chose chicken). This is really not the place to discuss that though.

About the sets, I found that pretty interesting. Especially the part when he explained the only 2 sets per episode thing, and also how a complex vehicle like the shellraiser equals to 6 sets. That really explains the lack of variety we've been getting. He also expressed his frustration with not having enough budget to actually put civilians just walking in the street. Sometimes I wonder if CG was really the best thing for this show. I mean, it's awesome, but it really limits you in that kind of stuff.

Btw, can we also address the part when he said "I have to make them look like cute little mutants so I can get away with them being murderous freaks" (I'm paraphrasing here). That's just so awesome, haha.

It was such a great interview. Shame we won't be getting more of em.

[Luckyday]

That's basically volume 4 of the mirage run. I doubt they'll ever be able to do something like that budget wise though. Too many characters.

DON'T remind me.:tmad:

My internal scream whenever I think about the budget.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/000/578/1234931504682.jpg

[Electric]

From that, i realized how less epic kraang battles would be if the head was not fair game. Pretty sure each turtle has knocked the head off a kraang atleast once.

[Avatar Yuffie]

VR9NbvTOfaU
Dear god....

A really bad one.

I don't even understand the problem here. It's a show about four brothers. Why are there expectations about female representation, at all? Can a show not be about four boys?

Just backtrack.

[Martin]

DON'T remind me.:tmad:

My internal scream whenever I think about the budget.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/000/578/1234931504682.jpg

Maybe if we all donate ten bucks they'll be able to render some civilians (or maybe just one; depends on how much we raise :trazz:) in the streets, haha.

[Jo Dawn]

Where, oh where, to begin...

And he obviously is blissfully unaware that girls actually like TMNT too, and that 30 years of the franchise's existence and decided not to use the girls there for the new version.


Yeah, us grown women definitely aren't the target demographic, but we're out there! :tlol:


Yes, we are. And I have loved TMNT since before the 80's show, and I am perfectly fine with no more females. I'm not offended; I'm impressed because he took a show I wasn't much interested in (I really prefer the darker-type TMNT versions), and made me interested. I don't need X number of females to be happy. I just need good storytelling. And if more females equates to worse storytelling, then it's unnecessary and I agree with him completely. I refuse to give up quality for female quantity.

Too bad females are so bothered by males.

This is true. I've seen it in many aspects of life, and in many fandoms. Why, oh why, do things have to be 'equal' to make them good? Most times, it just ends up ruining something that used to BE good. If you try and make things 'fair' to everyone... well, it's just unnecessary. It's this 'Everyone Gets an Award' mentality we seem to have.

And really, I don't want a female character just so that the vagina-to-penis ratio is closer to equal. I want a female character that is well-written with a good backstory AS LONG as it fits into the storyline.

Thank you!

QFT

I enjoy a show for a variety of reasons, not because I can check off the demographics it represents on a scorecard. Sounds like they have big plans for both Karai and April, so I agree with you - better to flesh out the existing female characters than to try and squeeze in more just for the sake of doing so. :ohwell:

And, thank you.

I'm obviously not male, but I imagine no guys really make a big deal of it because the creators haven't said anything along the lines of "no more guy characters".

And I would bet money that if one day the writers of My Little Pony or whatever, DID say 'no more male characters', most guys would say 'Ok, cool, whatever'. They don't get all up in arms over 'gender equality'.

Wow. This whole idea of there needs to be more female characters to balance out the male characters is honestly ridiculous. You have to remember that the main point of the show centers around the Turtles and Splinter. We don't need females shoehorned in just because there isn't a balance. Like Sweaty said, I'd like to see females as long as they contribute to the plot and are well-written characters who have a purpose to be there. Other than that, I could care less if we have more females on the show. April and Karai are enough for now because their stories are being told this season. Ciro probably said that so as not to give away things that he couldn't say. There may be more females in season three for all we know. Seriously, people are just blowing this out of proportion and really need to get a life.

I'm a female myself, but I enjoy shows aimed at guys. Hell, I used to watch Bravestarr and Dinosaucers with my brother, and those shows were aimed at boys. I didn't sit there and worry about the girls in the show. I just liked the show for what it was. Same goes for TMNT. I relate to Leo sometimes and he's my favorite Turtle, so that's cool for me. April and Karai are fine for now. If more females are added later on down the road, then cool. If not, oh well. Ciro is doing an amazing job, but the people who are bashing him are being totally unreasonable in their assessment of his words. No wonder he left this place.

Yes. You're being so reasonable. Stop it! ;)

You think Andrew is the only with a daughter here? My 4 year old loves this show. Guess who her favorite character, Donnie. She also likes Karai and April. My wife watches the show as well. Guess who her favorite character is. Mikey. Neither one of them are asking for more girls to show up because they can relate to each character despite the gender.

Yes, again.

Female Bebop and Rocksteady though. I'm interested.

I'm horrified. While I will be absolutely fine if he never brings in Bebop or Rocksteady, what bothers me more, is the thought that he would change already established characters to a different gender just to please a certain demographic and be 'PC'. I'll respect him more if he goes with his original plan and doesn't let outside pressure influence him.

Anyhow, thanks for the podcast. I wish I could let Ciro know he has my blessings. He really needs to see both sides of the coin, instead of all the flack he's getting.

[NinjaMan]

Since Ciro was hinting at Triceratons, think they will be enemies of the Kraang from Dimension X? Perhaps they hired Newtralizer to go after them?

[Machias Banshee]

I'm actually really curious about what sorts of editorial pressures there are for this show in general. We heard all about the budgetary and time constraints, and a bit about the censorship (ie: no headshots...unless you put the faces in the belly. Which again, pretty awesome loophole there.)

At the New York Comic Con this year Bryan Konietzko, one of the Co-Creators of Avatar and Legend of Korra, gave a presentation that took the audience step by step through their animation process.

I'd love if the Nick Turtle people would do something similar. Most of Korra is hand drawn with some CG elements, and it'd be great to see the compare/contrast with a full CG show.


There was an amazing book (http://www.amazon.com/Avatar-Last-Airbender-Animated-Series/dp/1595825045) published all about the art and the creative process of Avatar. Everything from the original sketches, to the pilot, and then backgrounds and process of character development. Wonderful book for anyone who likes the creative process...

TMNT should Absolutely have a similar book.

[Martin]

From that, i realized how less epic kraang battles would be if the head was not fair game. Pretty sure each turtle has knocked the head off a kraang atleast once.

But think about this, footbots don't have ANYTHING in them. Have you noticed how brutal those fights are? It's just too sweet.

[Jo Dawn]

noooooo.... sh*t here comes another 8 pages of comments...

I did it, too. Sorry. Got here late.

Anyhow, yes, Splinter. Shredder. Their past. Very intriguing.

[Martin]

There was an amazing book (http://www.amazon.com/Avatar-Last-Airbender-Animated-Series/dp/1595825045) published all about the art and the creative process of Avatar. Everything from the original sketches, to the pilot, and then backgrounds and process of character development. Wonderful book for anyone who likes the creative process...

TMNT should Absolutely have a similar book.

Wow, so cool! I'll save it up in my cart so I can get it once my wallet is in a better shape. Thanks for sharing!

[plastroncafe]

There was an amazing book (http://www.amazon.com/Avatar-Last-Airbender-Animated-Series/dp/1595825045) published all about the art and the creative process of Avatar. Everything from the original sketches, to the pilot, and then backgrounds and process of character development. Wonderful book for anyone who likes the creative process...

TMNT should Absolutely have a similar book.

They released a similar book about Korra's first season, and are planning to release three more as the show progresses. I for one am very excited about that.

I totally agree. I'd love to know about the whole process. From eyeballs to entrails, as it were.

One of the benefits of the sale to Viacom: easier access to merch.

[Electric]

But think about this, footbots don't have ANYTHING in them. Have you noticed how brutal those fights are? It's just too sweet.

definitely. the second they realized they werent human it just amped up. one of my personal favorites being when it appeared leos sword got stuck for a second in one, and he just continued to drag it through, taking off half the body.

i just hope they intermix robots with foot. or that donnie and mikey actually use their blades in fights, so everyone can stab through a bot:D

[Martin]

Since Ciro was hinting at Triceratons, think they will be enemies of the Kraang from Dimension X? Perhaps they hired Newtralizer to go after them?

He hinted, but he also didn't hint. I mean, he said that triceratons and fugitoid stuff were impossible to make in the near future because, you know, budget. Like 'they gotta be there cause it's a turtle show, but we can't make that happen yet'. Maybe if they did that tournament thing someone suggested for season 3 they'd have enough sets credit to actually do the thing :trazz:

Going back to topic, if they end up showing up, that'd be my guess as well. This show has a lot of parallelisms with the IDW comics, and it seems that the triceratons are against the utroms over there, so it might be the same here.

[Electric]

He hinted, but he also didn't hint. I mean, he said that triceratons and fugitoid stuff were impossible to make in the near future because, you know, budget. Like 'they gotta be there cause it's a turtle show, but we can't make that happen yet'. Maybe if they did that tournament thing someone suggested for season 3 they'd have enough sets credit to actually do the thing :trazz:

Going back to topic, if they end up showing up, that'd be my guess as well. This show has a lot of parallelisms with the IDW comics, and it seems that the triceratons are against the utroms over there, so it might be the same here.

im not a particular fan of all the different dimension and outer space heavy aspects of tmnt, but if they include the triceratons in a decent way, i think theyd fit right in and add something of depth to the kraang.

[demonsweat]

But think about this, footbots don't have ANYTHING in them. Have you noticed how brutal those fights are? It's just too sweet.

SO brutal. SO good. The action in this show is phenomenal. When the footbots showed I wasn't all that impressed... until everything started getting all stabby. Then I was like, "OH I get it!" :lol: I thought they'd just be slicing off a limb here and there, but it got pretty graphic. When Leo stabbed one through the middle, then the other, and the second bot pulled himself down the blade... I was floored. Meant to make a gif of that, actually...hm

[Martin]

SO brutal. SO good. The action in this show is phenomenal. When the footbots showed I wasn't all that impressed... until everything started getting all stabby. Then I was like, "OH I get it!" :lol: I thought they'd just be slicing off a limb here and there, but it got pretty graphic. When Leo stabbed one through the middle, then the other, and the second bot pulled himself down the blade... I was floored

It's freaking awesome. I think they replaced all foot soldiers with footbots just so this could happen, and I'm just glad they did. I mean, Leo does carry two katanas around, it's about time he got to slice a few heads off, haha.

Meant to make a gif of that, actually...hm

dooo et! haha

edit: Btw, please ignore all my freaking grammatical errors. It's late, I have a headache, I'm latino. The odds really aren't in my favor right now, haha.

[SpiderFly]

I starting to think this whole conversation would have been a little more nuanced and dare I say "adult" if female representation in the cartoons 80s and 90s were a bit more equitable. Alas, we'll just have to keep fighting and see what the next generation has to say. I'm patient. I mean...I've been having pretty much this exact same argument since I joined fandom 22 years ago.

I do have to say that my favorite part about the interview was hearing about the Mikey Test.

It's an unpopular fandom opinion, but I hate Dude!Mikey. With a passion that could fuel a thousand suns. It's one of the reasons why my favorite incarnations of the character is either Mirage or Live Action Movie.

So hearing Ciro talk about the Mikey Test really made me happy. Especially given the stuff that does get animated for him. Sheesh, I can only imagine the stuff that was in there BEFORE the editorial changes.

I'm actually really curious about what sorts of editorial pressures there are for this show in general. We heard all about the budgetary and time constraints, and a bit about the censorship (ie: no headshots...unless you put the faces in the belly. Which again, pretty awesome loophole there.)

At the New York Comic Con this year Bryan Konietzko, one of the Co-Creators of Avatar and Legend of Korra, gave a presentation that took the audience step by step through their animation process.

I'd love if the Nick Turtle people would do something similar. Most of Korra is hand drawn with some CG elements, and it'd be great to see the compare/contrast with a full CG show.

This whole thread has actually been a lot better than I expected. The fact that the fandom is actually talking about these issues is pretty cool.

In regards to Mikey, I like to think I'm not as bothered by his surfer dude/comedy persona. I'm a relatively new fan whose real exposure as a kid would have to have been the 2003 series, and now the Nick series, so I can't really speak from older sources. However, they tend to really over-rely on comedy and immaturity for his character. He's young and learning, I know, but I would be one of those that prefer him to be more serious. Seeing how characters deal with problems/adversity is how we can really explore them. But since Mikey is suppose to be the team's clown he's not allowed to be phased by anything. :(

Or at least focus on his empathetic qualities as a strength. His character really impressed me with his "soft muscle/squish" dialogue. And kudos to Ciro for realizing his mistake and going back to try and fix it. I shudder to think what it was like before his edits as well, but I will continue to look forward to how he intends to expand on this.

[Electric]

T
In regards to Mikey, I like to think I'm not as bothered by his surfer dude/comedy persona. I'm a relatively new fan whose real exposure as a kid would have to have been the 2003 series, and now the Nick series, so I can't really speak from older sources. However, they tend to really over-rely on comedy and immaturity for his character. He's young and learning, I know, but I would be one of those that prefer him to be more serious. Seeing how characters deal with problems/adversity is how we can really explore them. But since Mikey is suppose to be the team's clown he's not allowed to be phased by anything. :(

Or at least focus on his empathetic qualities as a strength. His character really impressed me with his "soft muscle/squish" dialogue. And kudos to Ciro for realizing his mistake and going back to try and fix it. I shudder to think what it was like before his edits as well, but I will continue to look forward to how he intends to expand on this.

mikey has never really been one of my favorite turtles, for different reasons. but just as they added some different traits to the other 3, i really like how theyre adding the empathy to mikey. it seems like such a natural quality for this innocent mikey to have, and it allows for some development in a different way

im also in the same boat as you, with most of my early tmnt being the 2k3, so the mikey i was used to was that one

[plastroncafe]

Mirage gave us the best Mike. He was the everyturtle. The baseline by which all the others were The Leader, The Basket Case, and The Brain.

Having said that...I'll be damned if Nick Mike hasn't wormed his way into my heart. Kudos both to the writing, animation, and the performance by Cipes.

[Electric]

Mirage gave us the best Mike. He was the everyturtle. The baseline by which all the others were The Leader, The Basket Case, and The Brain.

Having said that...I'll be damned if Nick Mike hasn't wormed his way into my heart. Kudos both to the writing, animation, and the performance by Cipes.

cipes is what really does it for me. from what ive seen of him, he is mikey, and he portays him with just the right amount of goofyness, fun loving, and compassion.

this mikey isnt perfect, but great

[CyberCubed]

He hinted, but he also didn't hint. I mean, he said that triceratons and fugitoid stuff were impossible to make in the near future because, you know, budget. Like 'they gotta be there cause it's a turtle show, but we can't make that happen yet'. Maybe if they did that tournament thing someone suggested for season 3 they'd have enough sets credit to actually do the thing :trazz:

Going back to topic, if they end up showing up, that'd be my guess as well. This show has a lot of parallelisms with the IDW comics, and it seems that the triceratons are against the utroms over there, so it might be the same here.

They're going to Dimension X by the end of Season 2. He said it takes time to build sets but once they have them they use them more.

[SpiderFly]

Mirage gave us the best Mike. He was the everyturtle. The baseline by which all the others were The Leader, The Basket Case, and The Brain.

Having said that...I'll be damned if Nick Mike hasn't wormed his way into my heart. Kudos both to the writing, animation, and the performance by Cipes.

cipes is what really does it for me. from what ive seen of him, he is mikey, and he portays him with just the right amount of goofyness, fun loving, and compassion.

this mikey isnt perfect, but great

I don't have much exposure to Mirage but is that the series with the chapter of Mikey captured by the Rat King? If so, that story was so poignant to me. He was captured, beaten and despite the odds (and the hoards of blood thirsty rats) he still wanted to go back and save the crazy dude. That's the unslayable hope and positive mindset I like in his character.

And I too really love Cipes as Mikey. He reminds me so much of Teen Titan's Beast boy and I adored that character.

Mikey isn't my favorite turtle ( I don't have one) but I feel a bit more invested in him emotionally as he's the sibling that is most like me. Heck, Donatello is an exact replica of my older brother in turtle form. It's so funny to see the relationship of him and Mikey on the show when it's just like me and my brother in real life. Awesome.

[Andrew NDB]

Here's our next episode:

LISTEN NOW (http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com/shellshocked/episode07.mp3)

[Slime State Alumni]

Here's our next episode:

LISTEN NOW (http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com/shellshocked/episode07.mp3)

You guys are on a roll with these quality podcasts. More Showa-era super sentei/Kamen Rider discussions please.

Also, I forget who it was, but the person that discussed empathy development and the internet - it's really similar to what Louis CK pointed out on Conan fairly recently about cell phones. Granted, the way CK articulated it was hilarious, but still the same point.

[BabyTurtles]

okay this thread got a ton of pages!

saw the update Ciro said *_* YAY!! so more girls will come!! just not as important as Karai or April! I'm cool with dat!!

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx1jjy6uCr1qei38z.gif

sorry for giving you so much crap Ciro!



.....is it bad that I want Mikey to have a girlfriend even though I said I didn't want girls to just be love interests???.....yea it's bad.

I'm also curious of what lines Ciro had to take out from Mikey's dialogue....

[Shark_Blade]

I kinda prefer Raph and Mikey being single tbh.

There's a lot of love drama going on with Leo and Don as it is.

[BabyTurtles]

I kinda prefer Raph and Mikey being single tbh.

There's a lot of love drama going on with Leo and Don as it is.

yea you're right. still wouldn't mind Mikey getting his own personal human friend though *_* girl or boy!

but who knows if Greg keeps bugging Ciro XD LOL

[Martin]

They're going to Dimension X by the end of Season 2. He said it takes time to build sets but once they have them they use them more.

Oh, I had forgotten about that. Still, I don't know. After that interview, I'm under the impression that we won't see them fully fleshed out for a while. I could be wrong though.

[Colonel Schrader]

damn! you guys still at it!! and some ppl have taken to writing their long ass stories on Ciro's Fb! he is just going to stop adding fans as friends in the future then! might even leave fb cause fans keep harassing him there.. there is also this one chick who drew fishface, dogpound, bebop and rocksteady as lesbian women and is posting it on his wall.. :tlol:

[Jester]

Huh? What are you talking about?

[Shark_Blade]

I swear he's gonna be sick of women if this continues...

[Colonel Schrader]

Ciro is on FB, and ppl keep bothering him about this topic.. writing big ass posts on his wall, posting pics of female versions of characters etc..

[NinjaPug]

It depends on where they are at in the production cycle. Ciro dropped the nugget back in August/Sept that he just drew a a Triceraton so they're coming at some point. The question is, would he be doing that for S3 or S4? I know they started voice recording for S3 back during the summer but I have no clue at what point the artwork/animation would start.

[Martin]

I swear he's gonna be sick of women if this continues...

Whoa, whoa. Let's not put things in his mouth that he didn't say.

I really hope this whole thing doesn't affect his vision of the series at all, so he can just keep adding characters, female or male, that fit the story he is trying to tell.

[Jester]

The Bebop and Rocksteady pic was in response to Neili's own joke, and the long posts are (is there more than the one?) actually quite civil from what I've seen....

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, Ciro was joking about Bebop and Rocksteady turning into women. Man, can't believe this has twenty-one pages already.

I'm also curious about Splinter and Shredder's friendship and wonder if we'll get more flashbacks or stories about it. I really want to know how they met and became friends in the first place.

[Karai Samurai]

Whoa this thread blew up.

Honestly, the number of female characters don't matter. It's the quality that counts. I don't care that Karai and April remain the only major female characters as long as they are well developed. BTW, how do we know all of the mutants are males anyway? The squirrels and that butt canon monster thing could have been chicks.

And let's not forget that this show has to remain marketable. I know a lot of commenters are citing the Legend of Korra as a show with gender diversity, but that show isn't selling toys and has an older target demographic. Throwing in female characters just for the sake of diversity is pretty silly business wise.

Last thing. Karai and April were used as love interests to further develop the Leo and Donnie's characters. I doubt stereotyping female charcters has anything to do with it. I think this is what Ciro was refering to when he said Donny needed the crush on April more. TBH, Donnie and Leo have been bland characters and the romance adds something to their character. And while we can argue that Donnie's crush on April may be a bit much, he's the most complex of the turtles due in part to his relationship with April.

[CyberCubed]

What? Those female elitists are now trolling Ciro on facebook? WTF is wrong with these people?

I know I shouldn't call them "FemiNazi's" but now that they're attacking Ciro's facebook page this has gotten out of hand. Do these women seriously have no lives? Is OK to disagree with him but to troll on his facebook?

These women really need to get laid.

[plastroncafe]

Slow your roll, Cyber.
Even Jester, who's on your side of this particular debate, has said that the conversation on Ciro's FB page has been civil.

And for the most part it's been really civil on Tumblr too.
You can put your shovel away. Unless of course you'd rather keep digging.

[CyberCubed]

You can put your shovel away. Unless of course you'd rather keep digging.

I'd rather keep digging.

[BabyTurtles]

:( I feel like drawing Ciro an apology picture.........

[demonsweat]

I do feel like splashing your opinions all over someone's fb wall is bad form (especially when you could just PM the dude), but whatever. People are always tagging him with their terrible fanart anyways, so I'm sure he's used to it. :roll:

:( I feel like drawing Ciro an apology picture.........

Go for it! It never hurts to do something nice for somebody. :D

[the fixer]

Cool podcast.
Awesome to hear that we'll be seeing Triceratons and the farmhouse in the future.
Gotta love the farmhouse... :tgrin:

[plastroncafe]

Ciro's FB is set up to only allow comments from people he's friended, so if people are able to post on his wall, it's because he's let them. He does, however, accept private messages from anyone, apparently.

Both of these things are bold decisions to have made regarding one's private social network, and the man should get props for allowing himself to be open to his fanbase.

[Electric]

Slow your roll, Cyber.
Even Jester, who's on your side of this particular debate, has said that the conversation on Ciro's FB page has been civil.

And for the most part it's been really civil on Tumblr too.
You can put your shovel away. Unless of course you'd rather keep digging.

Yeah, from what I've seen on FB it's been very civil. Tumblr, eh, some and then some not.

Either way, civil complaints and questions are perfectly fine. The stuff that should never have occurred were the death threats and petitions.

[plastroncafe]

I'm actually curious about this petition that people keep talking about, because I've yet to see a direct link to it, or a screen cap of it.

Anyone got one handy?

[Martin]

Both of these things are bold decisions to have made regarding one's private social network, and the man should get props for allowing himself to be open to his fanbase.

That clearly didn't backfire on him at all.

[plastroncafe]

I know! I'm quite pleased about that.

[demonsweat]

I know! I'm quite pleased about that.

You're... pleased that it backfired? :-?

[turtletoons81]

:( I feel like drawing Ciro an apology picture.........

honestly i feel like giving him a huge collection of my old figure turtles.

[Martin]

So we should actually rephrase that as:
the man should get props for allowing himself to be open to his fanbase insulted and death threatened over a kid's cartoon.

[plastroncafe]

No I'm pleased that it didn't backfire.
That is what Chrisdude MARTIN said, right?

That's the joke. By ignoring Chrisdude's failed attempt at sarcasm, I was able to highlight my actual point:

I don't think Ciro interacting with the fanbase has backfired on him at all. Bit of a kerfluffle, some things were said that shouldn't have, but overall I think he came out of this like a champ.

Anyone who creates something for public consumption, and submits that creation for actual public consumption, leaves themselves open for the glory and criticism of that public.

[NinjaMan]

I sent him a friend request since I wanted to tell him he's done an excellent job on the show but sadly he hasn't accepted :(

[Martin]

No I'm pleased that it didn't backfire.
That is what Chrisdude said, right?

That's the joke. By ignoring Chrisdude's failed attempt at sarcasm, I was able to highlight my actual point:

I don't think Ciro interacting with the fanbase has backfired on him at all. Bit of a kerfluffle, some things were said that shouldn't have, but overall I think he came out of this like a champ.

Anyone who creates something for public consumption, and submits that creation for actual public consumption, leaves themselves open for the glory and criticism of that public.

One thing is to criticize someone's work, and another completely different is to basically bully someone over the internet. You seem to be under the impression that he deserves to be punished though, so you know, I just don't feel like discussing this anymore....

I'm done with this thread. See ya around.

[demonsweat]

No I'm pleased that it didn't backfire.
That is what Chrisdude said, right?

That's the joke. By ignoring Chrisdude's failed attempt at sarcasm, I was able to highlight my actual point:

I don't think Ciro interacting with the fanbase has backfired on him at all. Bit of a kerfluffle, some things were said that shouldn't have, but overall I think he came out of this like a champ.

Anyone who creates something for public consumption, and submits that creation for actual public consumption, leaves themselves open for the glory and criticism of that public.

Who the what, now? chrisdude hasn't been here for pages. Did you mean Martin? Also he was being sarcastic... :ohwell:

Doesn't seem to me like Ciro would agree anyways. Looks like he's purged his fb of all the drama now. I say, good. Let's move on.

[plastroncafe]

I corrected it even as you were replying, demonsweat. Hence the edit message on the original post.
And yes, I saw the sarcasm. I even referenced it as a failed attempt at sarcasm.

And yeah...it does look like Ciro's FB has been tidied. More power to him for that as well. It's his space, after all. Or...it's his as much as anyone's FB belongs to them. (Damn you Zuckerberg!)

[CyberCubed]

Sadly I think this podcast did more harm to Ciro Nieli than good, and I don't think he'll ever want to interact with the fandom again after this.

It's a shame a few bad apples ruin things for everyone else, but what can you do?

[demonsweat]

Sadly I think this podcast did more harm to Ciro Nieli than good, and I don't think he'll ever want to interact with the fandom again after this.

It's a shame a few bad apples ruin things for everyone else, but what can you do?

Send him fan mail and art? I'd wait for this to die down a little first, and then just send some love his way. I'll probably drop him a quick note in a few weeks just to say how much my fam and I love the show. After all, any artist wants is for their work to be admired. :)

[MiBs]

First of all, nice to see that the thread is (almost) back on track

This is hands down my favorite version of him to date.

Mine to. I really like the writing, and I love the animation. That they made him tall and lean fits so much better with him being a kick*** sensei. The fight with Shredder in "Showdown" was awesome.


if dead Splinter is somewhere on the table, I wonder if they'll end the show that way. Or kill him off in a later season?? That could be really cool, even though it pains me to say it.

I could see splinter dying as an end, but that could border on the darker side of tmnt. I think it could be a great ending, that maybe they're considering, but I'm not sure if nick would allow it:ohwell:

I'm still very intrigued by the things Ciro said about the show having a closure - and the next guys would have to do a total reboot (maybe I'm just reading to much into that). If killing Splinter is on the table, I don't think it would at the very end - it opens to many doors. Maybe it would be in the penultimate season - the last season being about the Turtles dealing with it.

[Mewzard]

I knew when I heard that it would be a big portion of the Podcast, but I'm surprised how much of the amazing responses besides that were not all that commented on. He was really open and informative in the discussion.

Sadly I think this podcast did more harm to Ciro Nieli than good, and I don't think he'll ever want to interact with the fandom again after this.

It's a shame a few bad apples ruin things for everyone else, but what can you do?

That's just it: When we talked to him, he enjoyed it, and we enjoyed it. Everyone just had fun with the questions. Yeah, the fandom didn't take too kindly to everything he said (I winced myself at his response to female character), but it was a fantastic interview otherwise.

I'd certainly like more female characters, and don't see why they can't be used for new characters, monsters of the week, etc. In a society with both male and female being large portions of it, casts of shows should be balanced in gender (racial and sexual orientation representation would be nice as well). That's coming from a 25 year old male as well.

That said, I don't think he was trying to be sexist. It's a long term problem in the industry.

You guys are on a roll with these quality podcasts. More Showa-era super sentei/Kamen Rider discussions please.

Also, I forget who it was, but the person that discussed empathy development and the internet - it's really similar to what Louis CK pointed out on Conan fairly recently about cell phones. Granted, the way CK articulated it was hilarious, but still the same point.

Well, I'm on both a Super Sentai and a Kamen Rider podcast (though we're a little more recent at the moment, I do hope to back to older stuff). Fun franchises to talk about.

[demonsweat]

I'm still very intrigued by the things Ciro said about the show having a closure - and the next guys would have to do a total reboot (maybe I'm just reading to much into that). If killing Splinter is on the table, I don't think it would at the very end - it opens to many doors. Maybe it would be in the penultimate season - the last season being about the Turtles dealing with it.

Yeah, I like that idea better. :D Kill him off and leave it off with one final season of the turtles on their own, maybe a little older now. That would keep the door open to the occasional TV special in the future too.

I think the closure idea is brilliant. I so wish more shows did this. A great example is Breaking Bad - that show ended at the height of its popularity. They could've milked that cow for years, but Vince Gilligan (the creator) said no way. He was smart about it. So it wrapped up and it was great.

[plastroncafe]

That's just how American TV generally rolls. There's money to be made in syndication, and I think you need 200 episodes to qualify for that. So instead of story and character driven content, we get profit driven entertainment.

It's one of the things I love about BBC created shows. They have a set story, and when that's done...so is the show.

I'd be very interested to see a cartoon take that track, but don't see that as likely when the network bigwigs get involved. If there's money to be made from a franchise, then they're going to want as much bang for their buck as they can get.

[Mewzard]

Yeah, I like that idea better. :D Kill him off and leave it off with one final season of the turtles on their own, maybe a little older now. That would keep the door open to the occasional TV special in the future too.

I think the closure idea is brilliant. I so wish more shows did this. A great example is Breaking Bad - that show ended at the height of its popularity. They could've milked that cow for years, but Vince Gilligan (the creator) said no way. He was smart about it. So it wrapped up and it was great.

The idea of killing Splinter early on is an interesting one. It could work, but it would definitely change character dynamics early on. Killing him later, after both the characters and audience are appropriately attached does seem like it'd have a stronger impact.

Though, I can't deny being sad at the thought of a dead Splinter.

[demonsweat]

The idea of killing Splinter early on is an interesting one. It could work, but it would definitely change character dynamics early on. Killing him later, after both the characters and audience are appropriately attached does seem like it'd have a stronger impact.

Though, I can't deny being sad at the thought of a dead Splinter.

Tell me about it. There's something masochistic in me that wants to see it, though. Yeesh, it's depressing just to think about. :cry:

[MiBs]

I think the closure idea is brilliant. I so wish more shows did this. A great example is Breaking Bad - that show ended at the height of its popularity. They could've milked that cow for years, but Vince Gilligan (the creator) said no way. He was smart about it. So it wrapped up and it was great.


I read/heard an interview with Ciro somewhere, where he said that he at the very beginning thought of it as a five season show

[plastroncafe]

I'd need to re-read volume 4, but when Splinter dies he's living on his own in NoHo. The boys, who've drifted apart, come together to mourn...and then separate again.

It'd be very interesting to see what the dynamic would be like if they were still together at the time.

...but then, I'm a sadist when it comes to fictional characters.

[Karai Samurai]

What? Those female elitists are now trolling Ciro on facebook? WTF is wrong with these people?

I know I shouldn't call them "FemiNazi's" but now that they're attacking Ciro's facebook page this has gotten out of hand. Do these women seriously have no lives? Is OK to disagree with him but to troll on his facebook?

These women really need to get laid.

I'm sure you know nothing about these "FemiNazi's" sex lives. It's stupid to bring that up.

[CyberCubed]

I'm sure you know nothing about these "FemiNazi's" sex lives. It's stupid to bring that up.

Let's put it this way, they obsess over the lives of fictional cartoon characters especially in terms of shipping because its their wish fullfillment in real life.

All those people you see crying whenever fictional characters break up with each other in TV shows and movies do so because they identify themselves with the characters and use it as wish fullfillment. They have no one in real life to act as their interest so they immerse themselves into fiction.

[Electric]

Well this is going to start it back up again :ohwell:

[plastroncafe]

Yes, yes Cyber. You're so much better then these women who use another platform to do exactly what you do here. We know. You can stop telling us now.

Karai, remarking on the "effability" of a woman is just another way to out of hand dismiss her concerns. It's a common derail tactic that's built on the historical notion of "hysteria" and the idea that a woman's only worth is to be found in how much people desire her physically.

Usually it goes hand in hand with whether or not they're conventionally attractive.

These women aren't to be listened to because surely no one sexes them up enough, so clearly they're not worthy of concern.

[MiBs]

I'm sure you know nothing about these "FemiNazi's" sex lives. It's stupid to bring that up.

Let's put it this way, they obsess over the lives of fictional cartoon characters especially in terms of shipping because its their wish fullfillment in real life.

All those people you see crying whenever fictional characters break up with each other in TV shows and movies do so because they identify themselves with the characters and use it as wish fullfillment. They have no one in real life to act as their interest so they immerse themselves into fiction.

Yes, yes Cyber. You're so much better then these women who use another platform to do exactly what you do here. We know. You can stop telling us now.

Karai, remarking on the "effability" of a woman is just another way to out of hand dismiss her concerns. It's a common derail tactic that's built on the historical notion of "hysteria" and the idea that a woman's only worth is to be found in how much people desire her physically.

Usually it goes hand in hand with whether or not they're conventionally attractive.

These women aren't to be listened to because surely no one sexes them up enough, so clearly they're not worthy of concern.



Can you please let it go already! This has been going on for twenty pages. Maybe it's time to move on to some of the other topics in the podcast.

[Jester]

Slow your roll, Cyber.
Even Jester, who's on your side of this particular debate, has said that the conversation on Ciro's FB page has been civil.
Hooray, for getting lumped in with the crazy guy just because he's "on my side."

The thing about nuanced debate is we can both be "on the same side" and still have totally different opinions. Do I think there should be more female characters? Sure, why not. But using "gender parity" as the primary reason to introduce them seems to be the wrong way to go about it, in my opinion.

[BubblyShell22]

Totally agree with that, Jester.

And while I would be sad to see Splinter die, I'd still like to see how it would play out. Maybe they should do one future episode as a "What if" type thing. Sure, they did it in 2K3, so why not have that in the Nick show, too? I think there are many different ways they could go about it if they were to do that.

[Jester]

Totally agree with that, Jester.

And while I would be sad to see Splinter die, I'd still like to see how it would play out. Maybe they should do one future episode as a "What if" type thing. Sure, they did it in 2K3, so why not have that in the Nick show, too? I think there are many different ways they could go about it if they were to do that.
Heck, even FW did a "What if Splinter wasn't there?" episode. He only left and didn't die, but still...

[demonsweat]

:DTotally agree with that, Jester.

And while I would be sad to see Splinter die, I'd still like to see how it would play out. Maybe they should do one future episode as a "What if" type thing. Sure, they did it in 2K3, so why not have that in the Nick show, too? I think there are many different ways they could go about it if they were to do that.

That could be cool too, I do like flash-foward episodes. Or do what a lot of comics do, kill him off for a season and bring him back. Watching the season 1 finale, I was hoping Leo would stay "dead" until the start of season 2, but I guess they didn't want to upset the kiddos too much. :P

[marcelangelo]

Let's put it this way, they obsess over the lives of fictional cartoon characters especially in terms of shipping because its their wish fullfillment in real life.

All those people you see crying whenever fictional characters break up with each other in TV shows and movies do so because they identify themselves with the characters and use it as wish fullfillment. They have no one in real life to act as their interest so they immerse themselves into fiction.

hahahah, you couldn't have found BETTER words to describe you own behaviour here, dude!;)

[turtletoons81]

so we still arguing and conversating about neili's comment about women being powerful? hope tomorrow we stop talking about it since tumblr already stopped.

[Karai Samurai]

Can you please let it go already! This has been going on for twenty pages. Maybe it's time to move on to some of the other topics in the podcast.

Sorry about that. I should know better than responding to one of Cyber's rants.

[Electric]

Can't wait for the show to get darker. The goofy stuff has never been my favorite part of the show, and I feel like this show will get dark without getting potentially to dark like I feel 2k3 could be

[CyberCubed]

Its never going to lose its lighthearted humor and it shouldn't.

I think when he meant dark he meant more serious stuff likely involving Shredder/Splinter and Karai, or more dark fates for some of the characters.

[Electric]

Yeah that's what I'm hoping for. It's obviously not good to be dark dark, it is on nick still. But some more serious stuff would be great

[BubblyShell22]

Yes, same here. Definitely can't wait for some darker stuff because they do it well. "The Gauntlet" is proof of that.

[Slime State Alumni]

Let's put it this way, they obsess over the lives of fictional cartoon characters especially in terms of shipping because its their wish fullfillment in real life.

All those people you see crying whenever fictional characters break up with each other in TV shows and movies do so because they identify themselves with the characters and use it as wish fullfillment. They have no one in real life to act as their interest so they immerse themselves into fiction.

Uh the same could be applied with male fans as well.

[CyberCubed]

So did this kind of just blow over now? I don't see anyone ranting about feminism or Ciro anymore.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I am not at all convinced that Ciro and his crew thought of the idea of Karai being the Shredder's adopted daughter or Raph being afraid of roaches without watching the 2k3 series. Those are definately not a coincidence. He had to have watch a least A LIITLE bit of the show.

[Vivi]

I am not at all convinced that Ciro and his crew thought of the idea of Karai being the Shredder's adopted daughter or Raph being afraid of roaches without watching the 2k3 series. Those are definately not a coincidence. He had to have watch a least A LIITLE bit of the show.

Agreed. Same with the Don/April shipping. I bet those writers marathoned the show. And got paid for it :P

[turtletoons81]

Agreed. Same with the Don/April shipping. I bet those writers marathoned the show. And got paid for it :P

it's obviously they did that, heck i was kinda surprised Ciro was more of a mirage fan than the 80's Tmnt cartoon ,he said something like whenever he see's an episode with the crew he usually goes "did they really do that?" and His crew tend's to right notes for it in the next episode or so on which is interesting

[Coola Yagami]

So did this kind of just blow over now? I don't see anyone ranting about feminism or Ciro anymore.

So you wish to toss more fuel on the dying fire and spark it back up again?

[CyberCubed]

So you wish to toss more fuel on the dying fire and spark it back up again?

Usually this isn't something that blows over. Relating to female characters it gets blown out of proportion.

[DarkLightDragon]

Well it doesn't need to happen again....

[CyberCubed]

It's not happening here but in various tumblrs and blogs.

[BubblyShell22]

So? Just ignore those blogs and let it die. We don't need to fuel up a pointless argument again.

[plastroncafe]

Is now a good time to point out that "Target: April O'Neil" gave season II a pass for the Bechdel test?

The brief exchange between April and Karai during their fight scene was all it took.

Makes me wonder: Why Ciro didn't just say, "Yes."
Perhaps he wasn't clear on what exactly the Bechdel test was to begin with.

[Candy Kappa]

Is now a good time to point out that "Target: April O'Neil" gave season II a pass for the Bechdel test?

The brief exchange between April and Karai during their fight scene was all it took.

Makes me wonder: Why Ciro didn't just say, "Yes."
Perhaps he wasn't clear on what exactly the Bechdel test was to begin with.

Really, is the Bechdel test vocal conversation only?

Karai wanted to kill April to let the turtles and splinter know how it feels to have a lose one lost. If Karai was given the time to monologue like a villain, the topic would probably involve the turtles.

[DarthEmpress]

Is now a good time to point out that "Target: April O'Neil" gave season II a pass for the Bechdel test?

The brief exchange between April and Karai during their fight scene was all it took.

Makes me wonder: Why Ciro didn't just say, "Yes."
Perhaps he wasn't clear on what exactly the Bechdel test was to begin with.

That seems likely because Karai and April clearly interacted in this episode--not for very long, but just enough to pass. I'm still hoping for an episode later on where they're forced to work with each other.

I did have a dream last night about a new episode of the show that featured 4 new female characters (Irma, April's aunt finally appearing, Renet, and Jhanna) and was all about April saving the turtles :3

[snake]

Awesome podcast, thanks Andrew.

[SpiderFly]

That seems likely because Karai and April clearly interacted in this episode--not for very long, but just enough to pass. I'm still hoping for an episode later on where they're forced to work with each other.

I did have a dream last night about a new episode of the show that featured 4 new female characters (Irma, April's aunt finally appearing, Renet, and Jhanna) and was all about April saving the turtles :3

I would really like that. I feel that under any other circumstances April and Karai would have been best buds. In "Karai's Vendetta," despite Karai's ulterior motives, April really seemed to find her to be a cool person. And now, that April's learning Japanese culture and how to be a kunoichi, they only have more to bond over. They have a lot in common but are on two different teams.
They both get angry over having someone they love taken from them; but, as juxtaposed in "Target: April O'Neil," letting anger consume you rather than appreciate what you still have left is going to leave you with nothing.

[Green Machine]

Did anybody catch the 2nd name Ciro dropped when talking about casting Shredder and Splinter. I recognized Sonny Chiba. But I can't figure out the other one.

[Mewzard]

Did anybody catch the 2nd name Ciro dropped when talking about casting Shredder and Splinter. I recognized Sonny Chiba. But I can't figure out the other one.

Sho Kosugi.

I'm not familiar with his work personally, but he's the father of Kane Kosugi (who played Jiraiya/NinjaBlack in Ninja Sentai Kakuranger *Alien Ranger suits were theirs*).

[Slime State Alumni]

Sho Kosugi.

I'm not familiar with his work personally, but he's the father of Kane Kosugi (who played Jiraiya/NinjaBlack in Ninja Sentai Kakuranger *Alien Ranger suits were theirs*).

He is featured in all three of the "Ninja" trilogy films - Enter the Ninja, Revenge of the Ninja, and Ninja III: Domination. None of the films have really anything to do with one another, especially the third, but they're entertainingly cheesy '80s karate movies. He also has a minor role in the American Zatoichi rip-off, Blind Fury, which has very few redeeming qualities. You're better off just watching the original Zatoichi movies/TV show and maybe the Beat Takeshi remake, which was pretty cool but quite different.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Let's put it this way, they obsess over the lives of fictional cartoon characters especially in terms of shipping because its their wish fullfillment in real life.

All those people you see crying whenever fictional characters break up with each other in TV shows and movies do so because they identify themselves with the characters and use it as wish fullfillment. They have no one in real life to act as their interest so they immerse themselves into fiction.

Like what you are doing? Huh.

I'm actually surprised you apparently miss the drama.

Oh, btw to the guy who insisted Marceline was a love interest. A friend of mine updated on the subject, and I was apparently wrong.

Marceline was Princess Bubblegum's love interest. And apparently they had something going on there that the writers confirmed was romance that they had to be subtle about it. There was a fairly recent episode about a t-shirt.

Still more progressive than TMNT though.

[turtletoons81]

Like what you are doing? Huh.

I'm actually surprised you apparently miss the drama.

Oh, btw to the guy who insisted Marceline was a love interest. A friend of mine updated on the subject, and I was apparently wrong.

Marceline was Princess Bubblegum's love interest. And apparently they had something going on there that the writers confirmed was romance that they had to be subtle about it. There was a fairly recent episode about a t-shirt.

Still more progressive than TMNT though.

given that show has progressed since 2010 where as tmnt 2012 just started and it's in a second season where adventure time has like 5 seasons.

[Konchadunga]

Is now a good time to point out that "Target: April O'Neil" gave season II a pass for the Bechdel test?

The brief exchange between April and Karai during their fight scene was all it took.

Makes me wonder: Why Ciro didn't just say, "Yes."
Perhaps he wasn't clear on what exactly the Bechdel test was to begin with.

Perhaps he didn't feel he needed to give a crap. I wouldn't. If this thing was broadly accepted, I never heard of it. Compared to such things as making sure women can fight, don't always wear pink, and aren't just sex objects, I don't recall it being any widely-held standard of feminism. You can't just pull an innovative idea that many people don't know of, and then criticize them for not following it.


Someone asked what if Rahzar was female?

Maybe we could have had a Crystal Bradford? A tough as nails woman who excelled in martial arts and opened her own chain of dojos. Someone, who just happened to be a woman, that Mikey chose to admire and look up to. Who felt that her mutation destroyed the martial arts legacy that she built up from the dust. And then, whose second mutation gave her the power and ferocity that she had longed for.

It's too late now, but this is an example of how proper representation could have been added, that would not have taken away the fact that this is still a boys aimed show.

I've been meaning to answer this, despite the thread moving away from it, and since it won't die, I decided to dig it up.

That is an interesting idea, but unfortunately, it has one flaw: I think she'd be too sympathetic. That portrayal, when applied to a female fighting for recognition in a man's world, and resentful over her bad luck, is going to feel inherently heroic to many people. Even if she's mean, many viewers would write it off as being the result of being mistreated by society. Like it or not; we are going to carry the baggage of being a traditionally male society for a long time, and that's a good thing for writers who want to make stand-out, tough heroines, but flip the morality and it's much harder.

No; you shouldn't always have to justify a character being female, but Bradford, I think, needed to be male for what they were doing. Being the traditionally dominant sex and still power-hungry makes it clear to viewers that he's an inexcusable villain. He may not have appreciated being stuck in clumsy body (though honestly, I don't remember him complaining about it until the episode he became Razar), but it wasn't meant to make him the woobie; rather it was displaying outside what he'd always been; a big bully.

[Avatar Yuffie]

given that show has progressed since 2010 where as tmnt 2012 just started and it's in a second season where adventure time has like 5 seasons.

Well, by two seasons Adventure Time made itself known mature for a kids' show (IIRC the Lich made his debut there). So no, I don't think how long it ran had anything to do with it.

[Jester]

Well, by two seasons Adventure Time made itself known mature for a kids' show (IIRC the Lich made his debut there). So no, I don't think how long it ran had anything to do with it.
Yo mean like Season 2 of TMNT seems to be doing so far?

[DarthEmpress]

Yo mean like Season 2 of TMNT seems to be doing so far?

How do you mean? Season 2 doesn't seem any more "mature" than Season 1. It's become a tad bit darker (like Slash bruising up the turtles), but it still hasn't reached the level of "maturity" that I felt the 2k3 series had, especially in its first two seasons.

Perhaps he didn't feel he needed to give a crap. I wouldn't. If this thing was broadly accepted, I never heard of it. Compared to such things as making sure women can fight, don't always wear pink, and aren't just sex objects, I don't recall it being any widely-held standard of feminism. You can't just pull an innovative idea that many people don't know of, and then criticize them for not following it.

But plastroncafe didn't just ask Ciro about the Bechdel Test--her main question was, "Are we going to see more female characters this season?" If he didn't understand what the Bechdel Test was, that's understandable, but her question was still clear. I don't know why he didn't just give a cryptic response if he didn't give a crap instead of blundering into a bizarre explanation on why female characters are "cooler and easier to deal with."

[Avatar Yuffie]

Yo mean like Season 2 of TMNT seems to be doing so far?

Oh please, by next episode Don's arm will heal and Raph wouldn't think about Slash and people will forget about batdad. Again.

Just because the main characters get harmed a little more =/= mature story.

[Jester]

How do you mean? Season 2 doesn't seem any more "mature" than Season 1. It's become a tad bit darker (like Slash bruising up the turtles), but it still hasn't reached the level of "maturity" that I felt the 2k3 series had, especially in its first two seasons.
Maybe we just have different views of "mature". I think the wailing that Slash gave the turtles, especially Mikey, was very brutal, and I would say it is too "mature" for younger Kids.

[CyberCubed]

How do you mean? Season 2 doesn't seem any more "mature" than Season 1. It's become a tad bit darker (like Slash bruising up the turtles), but it still hasn't reached the level of "maturity" that I felt the 2k3 series had, especially in its first two seasons.

Some of the fights are getting just as brutal as the 2k3 fights. Its not quite there yet but we're seeing signs of it getting close.

[plastroncafe]

Perhaps he didn't feel he needed to give a crap. I wouldn't. If this thing was broadly accepted, I never heard of it. Compared to such things as making sure women can fight, don't always wear pink, and aren't just sex objects, I don't recall it being any widely-held standard of feminism. You can't just pull an innovative idea that many people don't know of, and then criticize them for not following it.

Then he should have said that.
If he didn't know what the Bechdel Test was he should have asked.
He didn't.

The Bechdel Test isn't a standard of feminism at all, but rather a BMI'esque measure of female representation in media.


No; you shouldn't always have to justify a character being female, but Bradford, I think, needed to be male for what they were doing. Being the traditionally dominant sex and still power-hungry makes it clear to viewers that he's an inexcusable villain. He may not have appreciated being stuck in clumsy body (though honestly, I don't remember him complaining about it until the episode he became Razar), but it wasn't meant to make him the woobie; rather it was displaying outside what he'd always been; a big bully.

Bradford needed to be male so they could make Chuck Norris into a bad guy.

[Jester]

The Bechdel Test isn't a standard of feminism at all, but rather a BMI'esque measure of female representation in media.

And like the BMI, just as messy.

[plastroncafe]

Agreed.

But...it's kind of sad that there are so few things out there were two female named characters have a conversation about something that isn't the male protagonist.

Luckily, thanks to "Target: April O'Neil," Season Two of Nick's TMNT is now on the short list.

[Shark_Blade]

Found a pic of Ciro.

http://i.imgur.com/07ZL2IV.jpg

[turtletoons81]

Found a pic of Ciro.

http://i.imgur.com/07ZL2IV.jpg

holy corn chips this dude as a ton of comics of tmnt... wonder how if he read the archie one's.also flaming carrot is at the bottom left.

[CyberCubed]

LOL @ The Flaming carrot comic sitting there.

[Electric]

How do you mean? Season 2 doesn't seem any more "mature" than Season 1. It's become a tad bit darker (like Slash bruising up the turtles), but it still hasn't reached the level of "maturity" that I felt the 2k3 series had, especially in its first two seasons.


because this show isnt going to be as mature as 2k3? its a new series, its not trying to be like OT or 2k3. its going to have some goofiness and immature humor, but just because it hasnt reached 2k3's all seriousness doesnt mean it hasnt matured.

the show has matured. not just gotten darker. the turtles are maturing. mikeys getting smarter, donnies taken on a ton of responsibility, raph just lost his childhood friend, leo found out their enemy is their sister. the plots are maturing, the characters are maturing, and its reduced some of the immature humor. but its not just going to become all serious. because its still a kids show.

[DarthEmpress]

because this show isnt going to be as mature as 2k3? its a new series, its not trying to be like OT or 2k3. its going to have some goofiness and immature humor, but just because it hasnt reached 2k3's all seriousness doesnt mean it hasnt matured.

the show has matured. not just gotten darker. the turtles are maturing. mikeys getting smarter, donnies taken on a ton of responsibility, raph just lost his childhood friend, leo found out their enemy is their sister. the plots are maturing, the characters are maturing, and its reduced some of the immature humor. but its not just going to become all serious. because its still a kids show.

I haven't seen Mikey maturing yet, but I suppose that'll come later. I know it's not supposed to be like the 2k3 series and that's a good thing--it should keep it's light-heartedness and humor, but I find that when this series attempts to be a bit "darker" and go into territory that just doesn't fit it (such as Leo attempting a self-sacrifice in season one) it falls completely flat.

In the podcast, Ciro said we're going to be seeing more 2k3 influences in the show later on so I wonder what that'll mean. I doubt Hun and Bishop or a SAINW-like episode would work in this series.

[plastroncafe]

I wish I could remember the guy's name, but I randomly ran into one of Ciro's old roommates in Artist Alley at this past SDCC. I usually pick up Dooney's Con Poster Du Jour and use it as a "yearbook" of sorts. Usually people look at me funny. Sean Astin told me that Year Book is a great name for it, when I sheepishly explained the purpose behind the memento.

This gentleman though, the one who identified as the old roomie, took it as an opportunity to tell me all about Ciro's comic collection and how devoted he was to them. It was equal parts awesome and heartwarming.

[BabyTurtles]

I haven't seen Mikey maturing yet, but I suppose that'll come later.

Actually I think Mikey is maturing :3

before he was the one with the crazy imagination and didn't mind that his brothers didn't listen to him, cause all he wanted was attention from them (like most little siblings)

but now he doesn't want to just be seen, he wants to be heard.

every time Mikey has an idea and his brother blow him off, you can tell it annoys him alot not now.


he's slowly but surely becoming mature in his own way :3

[turtletoons81]

Actually I think Mikey is maturing :3

before he was the one with the crazy imagination and didn't mind that his brothers didn't listen to him, cause all he wanted was attention from them (like most little siblings)

but now he doesn't want to just be seen, he wants to be heard.

every time Mikey has an idea and his brother blow him off, you can tell it annoys him alot not now.


he's slowly but surely becoming mature in his own way :3

for example remember the shadow puppet distraction he did to the kraang's that's was smart move by him normally alot of dumb character's don't do that and it's honestly showing mikey is slowly maturing and not mature quickly like *snaps finger* that,i mean look at april she hasn't gotten stronger i mean yeah she fight's but she isn't quite near the level of strength the turtles are yet.

[BabyTurtles]

for example remember the shadow puppet distraction he did to the kraang's that's was smart move by him normally alot of dumb character's don't do that and it's honestly showing mikey is slowly maturing and not mature quickly like *snaps finger* that,i mean look at april she hasn't gotten stronger i mean yeah she fight's but she isn't quite near the level of strength the turtles are yet.

I hope she never gets to the level of the turtles.....and if she does she better be 31 years old. (15 years plus training)

(April seems to be getting good a little too fast....)

[demonsweat]

... Oh, btw to the guy who insisted Marceline was a love interest. A friend of mine updated on the subject, and I was apparently wrong.

Marceline was Princess Bubblegum's love interest. And apparently they had something going on there that the writers confirmed was romance that they had to be subtle about it. There was a fairly recent episode about a t-shirt.

Still more progressive than TMNT though.

You're still wrong. The Marcy/Bubblegum thing was never official, and never confirmed by the writers. It all started with the episode "What Was Missing," where we find out Bubblegum has a t-shirt which was given to her by Marcy in the past, implying that they were once friends (but nothing more). Of course the shippers ran with it, to the point that Frederator made a saucy promo video revolving around the two. However - AT official freaked, the video was taken down, and the guy who made it was fired. (http://adventuretime.wikia.com/wiki/Mathematical!) So to recap:

- Marceline and Bubblegum have no romantic history.
- Marceline did indeed date an abusive asshole (Season 3), who Finn (another dude) saved her from, just for the record.
- Finn crushed on Marcy early on in the series too. And she enjoyed teasing him, making him blush, etc.

Also
Who said I was a guy? :D
Look, I love both shows, but obviously I love TMNT a little more or I wouldn't be here. I think Marceline is a rad lady, and a strong female character. Probably my favorite, just above Karai (I got a thing for badass ladies, can you tell? :D). But Marcy doesn't fit into these narrow-minded sets of rules you guys keep laying down for the females in this show. Face it, you just like that show better, so you give it more of a pass. But you can't have it both ways. If you're going to call out Karai and April for being love interests, then stand by your convictions and admit that some of your favorite female characters don't measure up to that as well.

And then the question is: does it really f'ing matter? Why make any standard set of rules? Isn't it enough that both Karai and April are tough, independent, smart, strong... but they still have flaws? I think those are good characters and far better female role-models than the ones we had when I was a kid. That's progressive.


The Bechdel Test isn't a standard of feminism at all, but rather a BMI'esque measure of female representation in media.

And like the BMI, just as messy.

So... I missed the "I" at first and read that as BM. :teek: Which pretty much sums up this thread. :P

[BabyTurtles]

Also
Who said I was a guy? :D
Look, I love both shows, but obviously I love TMNT a little more or I wouldn't be here. I think Marceline is a rad lady, and a strong female character. Probably my favorite, just above Karai (I got a thing for badass ladies, can you tell? :D). But Marcy doesn't fit into these narrow-minded sets of rules you guys keep laying down for the females in this show. Face it, you just like that show better, so you give it more of a pass. But you can't have it both ways. If you're going to call out Karai and April for being love interests, then stand by your convictions and admit that some of your favorite female characters don't measure up to that as well.

And then the question is: does it really f'ing matter? Why make any standard set of rules? Isn't it enough that both Karai and April are tough, independent, smart, strong... but they still have flaws? I think those are good characters and far better female role-models than the ones we had when I was a kid. That's progressive.




I'm sorry...but April is nothing like Bubblegum or Marceline....OR even Karai.

Bubblegum is (or was) Finn's love interest but she is shown being, smart, independent, and kind. Adventure Time treats Bubblegum MORE than just Finn's love interest. Bubblegum interacts with her candy people and cares about them and is shown trying to approve for them. She's also a little bit of a mad scientist.

April isn't like that....we are told that she is independent....but as soon as danger comes she's calling the boys.....(which I can't blame her for...I mean they are ninja heroes so they're doing their job) but it's hard to even pin down her attitude...is she sassy? kind? quirky? independent? Most of the time she just stands there looking clueless at Donnie's flirting. which brings up another point! Does she like the flirting? she seems to brush it off alot...but she also hugs and kisses him as if Don has a chance....thats CONFUSING.

both April and Bubblegum are love interests....but while Bubblegum is treated as something more, April is 90% of the time being the girl Donnie is drooling over...or stalking...or trying to win over. April is barely shown with personality (Until she gets mad...) She says she's good friends with the turtles...but let's face it...she's friends with only Donnie. The writers don't take any time to develop her relationship with the turtles and when they do it's about Love.

Karai might be Leo's love interest...or was, but she's shown to have alot of personality, and...make her own choices even if they aren't good. She has problems and she's on the wrong side...but you can tell she's confused about who she is...and if her father even loves her.

Same for Marcy, she's all kinds of awesome. She's just a cool girl, not really a love interest, just a friend. (yea girls can just be friends and not love interests)


April is just moving a plot. Whether it be the Kraang plot...or the romantic plot

I had better heroines growing up. Kim Possible and Katara are my favorites. (Bubblegum, Marceline, and Karai are also very cool)

[demonsweat]

I'm sorry...but April is nothing like Bubblegum or Marceline....OR even Karai.

Bubblegum is (or was) Finn's love interest but she is shown being, smart, independent, and kind. Adventure Time treats Bubblegum MORE than just Finn's love interest. Bubblegum interacts with her candy people and cares about them and is shown trying to approve for them. She's also a little bit of a mad scientist.

No I agree, Bubblegum is cool. I really like that she's a scientist on top of being a princess. I can't recall any princesses from the old 'toons that did anything but sit on the throne and wait to be saved. Plus they did the whole, "Bubblegum ain't got time for a man," storyline, so that pretty much cements her character as out of the love game for now. :lol:

April isn't like that....we are told that she is independent....but as soon as danger comes she's calling the boys.....(which I can't blame her for...I mean they are ninja heroes so they're doing their job) but it's hard to even pin down her attitude...is she sassy? kind? quirky? independent? Most of the time she just stands there looking clueless at Donnie's flirting. which brings up another point! Does she like the flirting? she seems to brush it off alot...but she also hugs and kisses him as if Don has a chance....thats CONFUSING.

both April and Bubblegum are love interests....but while Bubblegum is treated as something more, April is 90% of the time being the girl Donnie is drooling over...or stalking...or trying to win over. April is barely shown with personality (Until she gets mad...) She says she's good friends with the turtles...but let's face it...she's friends with only Donnie. The writers don't take any time to develop her relationship with the turtles and when they do it's about Love.


Well, you said it yourself - she has to call on them sometimes because she's not a fighter. I don't see that as a flaw exactly. Remember, she did blow them off for a while... it's not like she kept hanging around them just for protection. But she's tough too. She's stood up to Karai on more than one occasion. She fearlessly went into battle against the footbots with Casey. Plus, in Season 1 she insisted on going undercover; once to plant a bug in the Purple Dragon's hideout, the other to distract the Kraang so LH and the turtles could infiltrate. The PD thing was her idea too, so she got smarts (plus she tutors Casey). IDK, she's stepped up a lot, man... April is no slouch in this show.

Karai might be Leo's love interest...or was, but she's shown to have alot of personality, and...make her own choices even if they aren't good. She has problems and she's on the wrong side...but you can tell she's confused about who she is...and if her father even loves her.

Same for Marcy, she's all kinds of awesome. She's just a cool girl, not really a love interest, just a friend. (yea girls can just be friends and not love interests)


April is just moving a plot. Whether it be the Kraang plot...or the romantic plot

I had better heroines growing up. Kim Possible and Katara are my favorites. (Bubblegum, Marceline, and Karai are also very cool)

Marceline has been a love interest at certain intervals. That's my point - I think it's fine, it doesn't take away from how awesome she is. If she ends up with a guy again, maybe permanently, would that ruin the character for you?

I don't know about Karai, but April and Casey are totally going to hook up. And that's okay with me because April is more than just Casey's girlfriend. She's got her own thing going on... can't a girl get some love in a show anymore? ;)

[BabyTurtles]

I don't about Karai, but April and Casey are totally going to hook up. And that's okay with me because April is more than just Casey's girlfriend. She's got her own thing going on... can't a girl get some love in a show anymore? ;)

but that's the problem she DOESN'T have her own thing going on.

she's a plot mover. it's like having Donnie talk to only April and not do anything except do his inventions.

that's April! she pretty much only talks to the guys that have a crush on her and shows up when the plot needs her to.

and fine..if she HAS to have a romantic subplot with Donnie....can she AT LEAST talk to the other 3 turtles and be friends with them too!!!?

SHE'S NEVER EVEN SAID RAPH'S NAME!! (that's not a problem to anyone?)

I don't care that she's a love interest.......but when that's all she is, that's bad.

I made a joke with my sister once...that the only way for the other turtles to interact with April more is for them to develop a crush on her....or a gap. (extra attention if you have both)

sorry for the rant....I just can't understand why the writers are using April this way......she can be more helpful. she could have helped cheer Raph up after the Slash fiasco....or talk to Mikey about the other turtles not giving him the time of day....anything.

I don't need ninja April....I want an April with personality....a caring April.....a sister (like she usually is)

[Cure]

SHE'S NEVER EVEN SAID RAPH'S NAME!! (that's not a problem to anyone?)

Well since you asked, no, because I don't watch the show for April, therefore I don't care. At all.