New Ciro Nieli podcast... the future of Nick TMNT & more!

[Andrew NDB]

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/MpqvKUmmmh0/hqdefault.jpg

The Ciro Nieli episode (episode 6) is now up. Listen to it here (http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com/shellshocked/episode06.mp3).


Be sure and Like us on Facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/shellshockedpodcast

[Zulithe]

OooO, going to listen right now!

*edit*

Alright, I'm already 12 mins in and even though there's more than an hour left I just wanna say everyone needs to listen to this, it has some really great, in-depth behind the scenes info.

Awesome job you guys.

[Andrew NDB]

OooO, going to listen right now!

*edit*

Alright, I'm already 12 mins in and even though there's more than an hour left I just wanna say everyone needs to listen to this, it has some really great, in-depth behind the scenes info.

Awesome job you guys.

Quite a few things he dropped in this podcast that give some pretty big clues as to what's ahead. And where he stands on all things TMNT.

[NinjaMan]

Thanks for this podcast it was great Andrew!

[BabyTurtles]

awesome *___* this is so cool

so Ciro knows Mikey was too stupid at first....which means HE'S GONNA GET SMARTER!!! *_*

[Technogeek29]

awesome *___* this is so cool

so Ciro knows Mikey was too stupid at first....which means HE'S GONNA GET SMARTER!!! *_*

^Yes I approve!:D

[NinjaMan]

Is it me or was Ciro hinting at Triceratons?

[NinjaPug]

Is it me or was Ciro hinting at Triceratons?

He confirmed they were coming at PowerCon earlier this year

[NinjaMan]

He confirmed they were coming at PowerCon earlier this year

He did? I must have missed that one.

[Andrew NDB]

One of the bigger things to me is the early comment he made about how things will progress, that potentially the Fred Wolf fans are potentially going to feel left out as things become more 4Kids-like. That could mean a lot of things.

[Coola Yagami]

That might mean stuff like Hun, Bishop and perhaps arcs or ideas like the battle nexus?

[NinjaMan]

I'd love to see Bishop in this. He was the best villain from the 4k kids series. Be interesting to see how this group of turtles would do if they have the battle nexus.

[Andrew NDB]

I doubt we'll see things/storylines as specific as the Battle Nexus. But actual characters like Hun and Bishop, playing a big role? Probably. Bishop around contending with the Kraang invasion? Makes perfect sense. Hun, leading the Purple Dragons, making them heavy hitters for the first time? Makes sense, and the Purple Dragons are already established.

[Shark_Blade]

Wish there's a transcript, I can't listen 1 hour+. ._."

[BabyTurtles]

Wish there's a transcript, I can't listen 1 hour+. ._."

well I can kinda summarize for you.....

-well most of it was Ciro explaining how the animation team and himself gets stuff done....(talked about his drawings ect)

-he even explained his frustration with not being able to use more places and put more people in things (because in CGI it's hard to do) so no road trips or anything he says

-um....he said that at first he had the idea that April would be the main character and the story would revolve around her and meeting the turtles...Splinter would have been dead. (kinda glad that didn't happen though XD)

-Raph was gonna be the one to have a crush on April, but Donnie "needed" it most he said.

-Ciro admits Mikey was a little too stupid at first...and says he had to take alot of dumbs lines outta the script.....he says he's gotta develop Mikey right.

-one lady there asked if more girls were coming....Ciro was a little unclear....He said April and Karai were kinda enough for now. he also says Greg realllly wants Mikey to have a girlfriend (gets cut off before he talks about that more)

- Splinter is Ciro's favorite character (but I just think he wanted to dodge the favorite turtle question :D)

- the show might get a little darker (but Ciro wants to make sure it's still fun enough for kids to enjoy)

- Ciro also says he got away with alot of things XD like beheading kraang droids

- Ciro made the turtles adorable on purpose so he can make them killing machines and not be called out XD LOL (something along those lines)

- Karai has a bigger role in the show


.....thats all I remember for now.

[Zulithe]

Wish there's a transcript, I can't listen 1 hour+. ._."

Why not? It's interesting and worth your time if you are a fan.

I listen to tons of podcasts, great to listen while doing other stuff.

[Machias Banshee]

Wonderful podcast... :) I wish it were possible to see some of his old character-brainstorming illustrations. His Splinter is exactly how I've always pictured him in my head...

[CyberCubed]

Finished watching, thoughts:

1. LOL, people stop mentioning Venus De Milo to him. Seriously we don't need a female Turtle revived.

2. Ciro didn't follow much of the 4kids series or Archie. That being said its good to know he'll research them if he finds an interesting concept.

3. Sounds like there won't be many other females on the show aside from April/Karai and possibly Irma. Doesn't sound like Mona Lisa or any female mutants will be showing up anytime soon.

4. Interesting enough he said he was mortified at how different the OT was from Mirage...lol.

5. The CG limitations means they can't have the Turtles travel or visit other places outside of NYC much. This is a bummer since I'm hoping we get a lot of outer space, time travel, and other locations at some point. A real shame since CG you have to build sets and they only allow him 2 locations to build from scratch per episode. I knew this but its still sad...sometimes makes me wish they went with 2D animation. Hope we get some Dimension X stories at least.

6. I like that he mentioned Mirage storylines like #1-11, City at War and Return to New York. He also mentioned the Northampton farmhouse...and said the show gets a bit darker in terms of content that the execs at Nick had concerns about. Very interesting.

7. Talks a bit about unused Playmates ideas and old characters. Surprised nobody asked about Bebop/Rocksteady...but sounds like the Triceratons will definitely come at some point. He also name-dropped Fugitoid.....so they might all be in the same arc.


Very good podcast. I love the fact that he said he prevented the show from being a silly sitcom and made it have more action and storylines.

[Andrew NDB]

4. Interesting enough he said he was mortified at how different the OT was from Mirage...lol.

Right?

5. The CG limitations means they can't have the Turtles travel or visit other places outside of NYC much. This is a bummer since I'm hoping we get a lot of outer space, time travel, and other locations at some point.

The contrary, the reason I think he mentioned (at least) outer space and the Northampton farmhouse, and "how difficult" that is to do "if you really want to"... is because he does, in fact, want to and is in the midst of doing/prepping that right now.

[CyberCubed]

The contrary, the reason I think he mentioned (at least) outer space and the Northampton farmhouse, and "how difficult" that is to do "if you really want to"... is because he does, in fact, want to and is in the midst of doing/prepping that right now.

Yeah, but it takes a lot of time and money to build these sets apparently. I believe they mentioned before the Turtles will go to Dimension X sometime by the end of Season 2. Leatherhead is still lost there after all. Still it makes me wish we could see stuff like the Turtles going to Japan, time traveling, going to other planets...like we see in all other universes. The CG limitations prevent that unless they make a story arc there.

It's odd that Ciro Neil says he wasn't that huge a fan of the Fred Wolf show, when so much of the Nick show is blatantly influenced by it. Even stuff we know is going to happen like Baxter becoming a mutant fly again, or the Utroms being called the Kraang, or the Technodrome, or the mutagen in general, etc. Seems heavily influenced by the OT for someone who claims to prefer the Mirage comics and first movie.

I suppose the Mirage elements coming aside from the Triceratons/Fugitoid is most likely going to be the retreat to Northampton, and some sort of Shredder defeat (jokingly talks about not being able to behead Shredder), and maybe some 4kids elements like Hun.

No mention of Renet or Savanti Romero, or any Archie exclusive characters like Armaggon though.

[Andrew NDB]

I lament us not asking about the Fred Wolf crossover business and Renet... though I didn't want to bombard with too many questions and I didn't think we'd get any kind of answers beyond "can't talk about it much."

[Shark_Blade]

well I can kinda summarize for you.....Thank you very much! :D

Why not? It's interesting and worth your time if you are a fan.

I listen to tons of podcasts, great to listen while doing other stuff.
Cause I'm travelling at the moment, so some places have very limited/poor connection and such. :tsad:

[CyberCubed]

At least the future of the Nick show remains in good hands with Ciro Nieli. I'm hoping the show goes on for at least 5-7 seasons though just so they can cover all the important aspects of the TMNT lore.

It's always interesting to see how much work goes on behind the scenes at a cartoon. People often forget how much work it is just to put one episode together, or to work with a 90+ person staff.

I always knew working in animation was difficult, I can only imagine what goes on there.

[Luckyday]

It would seem Ciro Nieli has become humble from the last time that I heard from him.

[BabyTurtles]

It would seem Ciro Nieli has become humble from the last time that I heard from him.

being humble is always good :D

[Zulithe]

It would seem Ciro Nieli has become humble from the last time that I heard from him.

He has always come off as very personable and approachable to me, in every single video, podcast or article. Not everyone can be that way ALL the time but he definitely does a much better job than most.

[BabyTurtles]

I'm a little bummed we won't get more girls....at least not as much as I hoped.....

I don't get why Ciro thinks girls are too powerful? I don't understand....:cry:

[Zulithe]

Naa, I think will. Maybe Alopex or a character somewhat similar.

He just doesn't want to drop hints about that kind of thing. He was being very avoidant on that question.

Too much to gain by introducing a female mutant. Lots of stuff they can mine there. Not to mention give April more foes to battle (female on female is always interesting :p)

[CyberCubed]

I guess Angel won't be appearing either, even though she's also been in the IDW series.

[Luckyday]

He has always come off as very personable and approachable to me, in every single video, podcast or article. Not everyone can be that way ALL the time but he definitely does a much better job than most.

It was nice for a change for someone to not go all "Well my vision of the show is the best and the others can suck it cause they don't know what I know about and if weren't for me they wouldn't give a ****..." it just really refreshing to hear him to admit the show's major short comings. Although I can't tell you how sad it makes me feel knowing that it's going to cost them a arm and leg to get that New York snowy setting for that Mikey's story. :tcry:

I'm a little bummed we won't get more girls....at least not as much as I hoped.....

I don't get why Ciro thinks girls are too powerful? I don't understand....
Something tells me that he has tunnel vision when comes to female characters. They either have to be really good or bad and it's mandatory for them to be the love interest of one of the turtles.

[BabyTurtles]

Something tells me that he has tunnel vision when comes to female characters. They either have to be really good or bad and it's mandatory for them to be the love interest of one of the turtles.

why.....

http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net/images/stash-3-50df7aa6d07f9.gif

they can be sooo much more! Raven from Teen Titans didn't have a love interest and she was awesome (although that didn't stop me from shipping her with Beast Boy)

[Coola Yagami]

Well.. the show is about mutants... and having a vagina automatically cancels out the effects of mutagen... so... no female mutant characters. Honestly though... Mutagen rains all over the city and not one female mutant. Sexist fools.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I'm disappointed he'd think April and Karai are enough girls for the show.

No, they're not. :/

"a male writer can't write girls well" is a weak excuse tbh.

[Shark_Blade]

But we don't really need more girls on the show, it's about the turtle boys after all.

Even in the 2007 movie, there's only April and Karai and that's enough for now. I'm sure they'll add more in future seasons should the need arises.

Speaking of, April didn't even have enough character exploration/screentime imo in favor of the turtles as it is, so to give more screentime to other girls kinda taking her limelight of being the leading lady of tmnt.\

Raven from Teen Titans didn't have a love interest and she was awesome (although that didn't stop me from shipping her with Beast Boy)She did fall for the guy from the evil cursed book once though. :P

http://i.imgur.com/XyKk2jx.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/Qstuvzp.jpg

[Avatar Yuffie]

But we don't really need more girls on the show, it's about the turtle boys after all.

Even in the 2007 movie, there's only April and Karai and that's enough for now. I'm sure they'll add more in future seasons should the need arises.

Speaking of, April didn't even have enough character exploration/screentime imo in favor of the turtles as it is, so to give more screentime to other girls kinda taking her limelight of being the leading lady of tmnt.

I disagree.

Coola is right, all those raining mutagen and apparently they're penis guided plot devices.

[Shark_Blade]

Like Ciro said, "You can't please everybody". ;)

[Avatar Yuffie]

Like Ciro said, "You can't please everybody". ;)

And he obviously is blissfully unaware that girls actually like TMNT too, and that 30 years of the franchise's existence and decided not to use the girls there for the new version.

It's shortsighted.

I was so looking forward Renet. Obviously not happening then.

[Shark_Blade]

I would like to point out in OT, the only mutant female character I remember worth noting was Mona Lisa (since Lotus Blossom is already pretty much/or is Karai), and she appeared in Season 4 Episode 18. We're only at early Season 2, anything can happen along the road.

In 2k3...I think there's that blue monster girl but she's not that memorable imo.

[MiBs]

Great podcast! It was very interesting to hear about some of the "struggles" with Nick about where the show should go, and that Ciro wants it to have a darker tone - I hope it's not just about making the mutants look more scary and stuff like that, but that they will develope the characters and explore their more complex sides as well.

Was I the only one thinking about the stuff he said about having an end to the show (or something like that) - that he wants to have a full closure, and that someone has to do a reboot, if they want a new TMNT-show after the Nick show. Or maybe that's just a a natural approach.

[Shark_Blade]

The closure I expect is Donnie and April relationship, whether they get together or not. :P It's what they focused on the very first episode/pilot.

Rule of trilogy/series: always look back on the first/pilot episode. Good series like Scream, Harry Potter, Star Wars, LOTR, Prison Break, Desperate Housewives, etc all focuses on that.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I would like to point out in OT, the only mutant female character I remember worth noting was Mona Lisa (since Lotus Blossom is already pretty much/or is Karai), and she appeared in Season 4 Episode 18. We're only at early Season 2, anything can happen along the road.

In 2k3...I think there's that blue monster girl but she's not that memorable imo.

Ciro already said April and Karai are "enough girls". So, definitely won't see more female characters added in season 2. I'm getting the implication 2k12 Irma would be a cameo and had nothing to do with April's life.

Weird you pointed out Mona and Lotus and then not remember Irma. She's practically a regular character in the OT. Kala had many appearances too.

[Shark_Blade]

She already exists in this carnation. There's already Irma's photo last season and possibly her body too in the last episode so I'm expecting her to be introduced this season.

I'm okay either way.

[Andrew NDB]

The closure I expect is Donnie and April relationship, whether they get together or not.

What I got out of the podcast is that what those two "have" now is just transitional. And ultimately they'll arrive at the same platonic place they're at in most TMNT media.

I was so looking forward Renet. Obviously not happening then.

Oh, I would almost bet money that Renet will show up. And maybe sooner than we think.

[MiBs]

The closure I expect is Donnie and April relationship, whether they get together or not.

haha, I hope there's more to it than that ;)

[drgon78]

I don't have time to listen to an hour long podcast right now but thanks to the other posters I get the idea of what he said. I agree that there is a lack of female characters even minor ones like April's invisible aunt, maybe Irma, etc. But I do agree that with all those canisters of mutagen there is no way that there wouldn't be at least one female mutant. Though there is a chance that the female mutant wouldn't actually look female or even humanoid. But I also agree that I want April to get more character development.

[Avatar Yuffie]

What I got out of the podcast is that what those two "have" now is just transitional. And ultimately they'll arrive at the same platonic place they're at in most TMNT media.



Oh, I would almost bet money that Renet will show up. And maybe sooner than we think.

Didn't he say the show maxed out on girls? If the guy is struggling with April and not want her powerful how will the local timestress with the ability of space/time manipulation do any better?

[Tazi]

"One day I get email about why the **** is not Old Hob there?!" :lol:

[CyberCubed]

"One day I get email about why the **** is not Old Hob there?!" :lol:

Funny since IDW was told they couldn't use any Nick characters in their comic. I wonder if the same holds true about Ciro Nieli not being able to use Old Hob or Alopex.

[Andrew NDB]

Funny since IDW was told they couldn't use any Nick characters in their comic. I wonder if the same holds true about Ciro Nieli not being able to use Old Hob or Alopex.

Admit it. You sent the email.

[Zulithe]

Didn't he say the show maxed out on girls? If the guy is struggling with April and not want her powerful how will the local timestress with the ability of space/time manipulation do any better?

I'm choosing to read it my own way... but maybe he meant HUMAN females. Mutants could still be on the menu for females :3

[Andrew NDB]

I'm choosing to read it my own way... but maybe he meant HUMAN females. Mutants could still be on the menu for females :3

Nope. Because the other example he offered of an overpowered female character he had to work with was Starfire on Teen Titans... and she's an alien.

[Zulithe]

I'm still hopeful! I think his reasoning is pretty weak on this though, and I tend to agree with his other reasons for things on the show. Oh well.

There's always season... 4?

[MaximeLoonatic]

Ciro already said April and Karai are "enough girls". So, definitely won't see more female characters added in season 2. I'm getting the implication 2k12 Irma would be a cameo and had nothing to do with April's life.

Weird you pointed out Mona and Lotus and then not remember Irma. She's practically a regular character in the OT. Kala had many appearances too.
Yeah, How can he forget about her!? In the show she made a cameo, and she was confirmed to being in this new season.
If we see back in the first show, Irmas was aslo a good member of the turtle team: she show loyalty, corage and fun... Yes, she's funny in comparation with April!
He better not forget about Irma!

[turtletoons81]

that was interesting also i would've liked ciro doing a story of turtles all grown up while splinter is dead after all this year it would've been ala 4-kid's city at war

[Heather Breckel]

The idea of being maxed out on girls is pretty silly. Avatar Yuffie's sig alone has a great example of a series directed at young boys that has a big variety of female characters. Some powerful, some not.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/b594f140a7e71f3799347766a8bc5f7c/tumblr_mty5n5mdpt1ssagsdo1_400.gif

I am pretty excited to see we'll be getting more 4Kids stuff in the show. I've always appreciated IDW's taking elements from all the incarnations, so it's good to see Nick start to do it too. Also glad to see development coming for Mikey.

[turtletoons81]

The idea of being maxed out on girls is pretty silly. Avatar Yuffie's sig alone has a great example of a series directed at young boys that has a big variety of female characters. Some powerful, some not.

http://31.media.tumblr.com/b594f140a7e71f3799347766a8bc5f7c/tumblr_mty5n5mdpt1ssagsdo1_400.gif

I am pretty excited to see we'll be getting more 4Kids stuff in the show. I've always appreciated IDW's taking elements from all the incarnations, so it's good to see Nick start to do it too. Also glad to see development coming for Mikey.

i honestly think what ciro said is kinda silly but holy moly do some people on tumblr went in and bash the heck out of him just because he gave a opinion/reason about it even though it wasn't logical in someway's.

[NinjaMan]

Remember this is a cartoon with at toyline aimed at boys. Historically female figures don't sell well with boys.

[turtletoons81]

Remember this is a cartoon with at toyline aimed at boys. Historically female figures don't sell well with boys.

true but half of the tmnt fanbase is mostly women than boy's.i'm just hoping ciro retrace those word's he said and forget that he ever said that and keep's having more female character's.

[NinjaMan]

true but half of the tmnt fanbase is mostly women than boy's.i'm just hoping ciro retrace those word's he said and forget that he ever said that and keep's having more female character's.

But most women don't buy toys for themselves. The demographic are the boys.

[demonsweat]

Really fantastic interview, thanks Andrew! :D Good to hear he's a Mirage fanboy first with a strong love of the first movie. I'm right there with him. I feel like this show is in good hands.

Some highlights:

- Interviewer: "I don't know if a lot of these people are happy in life."
*snerk*

- He mentioned doing a closed story line, with an actual ending and not letting it peter out... I think that's really great. Too many shows (not just TMNT) make the mistake of tapering off without any closure and I think that tends to leave a sour taste in the mouth.

- Nice shout out to Gargoyles. Miss that show.

- April's radio he mentioned (reference to The Royal Tenenbaums, I believe he said?)

http://i.imgur.com/0xjFaA4.png


- First cartoon to stab heads, unprecedented! Keep pushing those censorship boundries guys, I friggin' love it. :D

http://i.imgur.com/hq6ZS4l.png

http://i.imgur.com/ioIXVSD.png

[Powder]

Nice listen for sure. I'm happy with how everything's going and I eagerly await what's yet to come.

[turtletoons81]

Really fantastic interview, thanks Andrew! :D Good to hear he's a Mirage fanboy first with a strong love of the first movie. I'm right there with him. I feel like this show is in good hands.

Some highlights:

- Interviewer: "I don't know if a lot of these people are happy in life."
*snerk*

- He mentioned doing a closed story line, with an actual ending and not letting it peter out... I think that's really great. Too many shows (not just TMNT) make the mistake of tapering off without any closure and I think that tends to leave a sour taste in the mouth.

- Nice shout out to Gargoyles. Miss that show.

- April's radio he mentioned (reference to The Royal Tenenbaums, I believe he said?)

http://i.imgur.com/0xjFaA4.png


- First cartoon to stab heads, unprecedented! Keep pushing those censorship boundries guys, I friggin' love it. :D

http://i.imgur.com/hq6ZS4l.png

http://i.imgur.com/ioIXVSD.png

jesus...and people say this is a kid's show.

[Avatar Yuffie]

But most women don't buy toys for themselves. The demographic are the boys.

Proof, or it never happened.

[MaximeLoonatic]

Proof, or it never happened.

I'm buying the toy figure for myself, and I'm a woman!

[Slime State Alumni]

This was such a good interview. The more I hear Ciro talk about his interests, the more I know that the show is in good hands.

[Papenbrook]

Maybe Ciro doesn't want any female characters to became too powerful because it makes them look like Mary Sues. Also, I pretty sure that if more female characters appear, more ships will be created.

[Candy Kappa]

jesus...and people say this is a kid's show.

Well, that is the Foot robots, not actual people

[BubblyShell22]

Loved that podcast. Thanks for sharing, Andrew. I love everything I've heard and can't wait to see what this show has in store for us down the road. You can tell Ciro really loves what he's doing and really wants to create a good show, which he has done.

[NinjaMan]

Proof, or it never happened.

You really think grown women are the target audience when it comes to action figures in a show aimed at boys?

[MaximeLoonatic]

You really think grown women are the target audience when it comes to action figures in a show aimed at boys?
To grown women who has been fans of TMNT since childhood? Heck Yeah!

[Coola Yagami]

To grown women who has been fans of TMNT since childhood? Heck Yeah!

Exactly. Apparently us men are the only ones allowed to never grow up. Far be it for women to not like their childhood shows. Admit it, most girl shows were stupid and insulting to girls. The smarter ones dug the boys shows.

[demonsweat]

Target demographic =/= entire audience of the show. :D

The show is definitely aimed mostly at young boys. But that doesn't mean ladies or older fans can't enjoy it (and buy the toys). It's marketed towards a specific audience, just like everything else. No need to defend your love of it, we're all superfans here, right? :P

[Shark_Blade]

There's already another female enemy - Mrs Campbell. I trust Ciro on this, what he's doing now is great. :)

What I got out of the podcast is that what those two "have" now is just transitional. And ultimately they'll arrive at the same platonic place they're at in most TMNT media.
Kinda like how Teen Titans ending I guess. But I have a feeling Ciro and his team will surprise us all, since he's aiming for closure after all. :D

haha, I hope there's more to it than that ;)
Yeah me too.

[Konchadunga]

One of the bigger things to me is the early comment he made about how things will progress, that potentially the Fred Wolf fans are potentially going to feel left out as things become more 4Kids-like. That could mean a lot of things.

I...really don't see it. The second season so far has felt like it's pushing much more in the direction of the Fred Wolf show; in that they're going for more mutants, the Technodrome underwater, a Shredder/Kraang alliance, and April living apart from the Turtles. I'm not calling Nielli a liar, but the dissonance really makes me wonder why we needed to squeeze this stuff in between the first season, which so far has had a stronger (if not all that strong) story arc, and his later more 4Kids-like stories.

The one area I credit for being similar to 4Kids' show is that the status quo doesn't stay still in this show. A lot of characters change their appearance, roles, etc, and all of that is nice, but it never seems like the priority of the plot. We're basically getting a light repeat of the problem from the start of the first season; in that April loses her father, it's portrayed as something very dramatic, and then it gets ignored in many subsequent episodes. The episode with Casey, they didn't even bother to have April sad and neurotic over the loss.

Now that we're talking about April, I'd like to address Ciro's point about how when there's a female character in a show, she runs the risk of being too powerful. I agree that's happened sometimes as of late. In earlier shows, like the Fred Wolf series, females were usually barred from action roles, and this has created a situation of resentment where we've gone the opposite direction. For example, The Powerpuff Girls and Kim Possible, where it seems the importance of feminism alone is enough to make girls invincible, which actually makes them less relatable to actual women. Naturally, those are comedies, but there's also Transformers Animated, which gave Sari Sumdac way too much power without providing any explanation, and to an extent, even the 4Kids show, which gave April just a bit too many talents. It's really not often you get somebody who can function as a brainy computer nerd, a ninja, and a jungle warrior, all in one. I mean; Batman can, but he's the star of his series. So there really is a risk of female characters becoming Mary Sues.

I do have to criticize Nielli on a lot of his other related points, though. First of all, I don't think his Teen Titans show made Starfire and Raven too powerful; given the source. Starfire was, if anything, underpowered next to her graphic novel origin; there she was from a race of catlike warriors, while the show made her more of a ditz who had a lot of physical strength, but little finesse. Cartoon Raven was a better fighter than her graphic novel origin; both in terms of hand-to-hand combat and having gained telekinetic powers, but her most cosmic, demonic, dangerous abilities were, in fact, taken from the original. Secondly, how could Nielli be worried about creating a Mary Sue in terms of abilities, yet think doing so in terms of popularity and plot-centricism is fine. I wonder just how close we came to a Ninja Turtles show that was mostly about April, with all of the Turtles having crushes on her. Third and finally, though there is, in fact, the risk of making females too powerful, it's far from inevitable, and I don't think it's right to use that as an excuse not to have females.

[BabyTurtles]

^ it's moments like this I appreaciate the avatar the last airbender series

I mean Katara.....she was weak at first but practiced just like any person should and became a beast. AND SHE EARNED IT.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m751mcTTa91qzrlhgo1_r2_500.gif

heck most of Aang's enemies were girls XD I just don't understand why we can't have more girls in TMNT

April DOESN'T need to be some super powerful ninja....she didn't need to be some special plot for the kraang.

she could have just been a normal human girl, but was resourceful in her own way. We saw that she was pretty good at collecting info for the turtles....why not keep her doing that? give her a good personality and BAM awesome heroine *_*

and if they needed more kick-but girls, they had Karai...and could have put some mutant chicks in there.....heck even ANGEL!!

there's no excuse...sorry...:ohwell:

[pannoni1]

Very informative interview, thanks NDB! My favorite tidbit was about how all of the buildings were named after different creators of the show; next time I watch I'll check the credits to see which represents who. I just hope that the show lasts longer so that Nick can invest in more sets since that's clearly the show's biggest budget limitation. I always feel that the show takes place between Canal street and 14th Street in Manhattan and after all parts of Philly do feel like parts of Manhattan between Downtown and Midtown. Many of the streets are also crooked down there in the real NYC. Bleeker street is one of the streets in the area, so it did a good job of getting the location that the first movie used. But its nice to see himself doing a steady workflow with a new episode every two weeks; sounds like a fun job once you got the hang of it!

[Avatar Yuffie]

To grown women who has been fans of TMNT since childhood? Heck Yeah!

This.

I bought the toys for myself because I like collecting stuff. I can safely say I'm not alone in this.

[Heather Breckel]

Yeah, us grown women definitely aren't the target demographic, but we're out there! :tlol:

Avatar is a pretty good example of one of the few American cartoon series that have a lot of good female characters. It was a pretty big deal when Korra came out and boys weren't bothered by the fact the main protagonist is a girl. Boys apparently aren't that bothered by female characters. (now if only we'd get Avatar toys outside of the really bad ATLA ones they made)

[NinjaMan]

This.

I bought the toys for myself because I like collecting stuff. I can safely say I'm not alone in this.

You apparently don't understand how toys/tv show aimed at boys work. This is a kids show aimed at boys probably around the age of 10-11. They don't care if grown women watch the show. Most boys from what I've read and seen with other toylines besides TMNT don't buy female figures. Hasbro has said the same thing themselves with some of their lines. That's just the way it is. Me, I want a Karai figure for my collection. But I know her chances are slim.

And on that note, I'm done with the topic.

[Avatar Yuffie]

You apparently don't understand how toys/tv show aimed at boys work. This is a kids show aimed at boys probably around the age of 10-11. They don't care if grown women watch the show. Most boys from what I've read and seen with other toylines besides TMNT don't buy female figures. Hasbro has said the same thing themselves with some of their lines. That's just the way it is. Me, I want a Karai figure for my collection. But I know her chances are slim.

And on that note, I'm done with the topic.

Don't worry, I understand how backwards western cartoons/toy companies are back then. It's why I switched to anime as a teen. I don't need to get hung up on Korra not getting an action figure because I can get a Mikasa Ackerman one.

However, it's 2013. Girls can play with action figures now. Guys watch My Little Pony. It doesn't need to be "it's always like this" mantra anymore.

[Cure]

Boys apparently aren't that bothered by female characters.

Too bad females are so bothered by males.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Too bad females are so bothered by males.

I'm not bothered.

I'm bothered people act like having more female characters is an inherent weakness to a cartoon.

[Machias Banshee]

Andrew, a question for you: Ciro said that he's basing a chunk of the show on the mirage comics. How many female characters ARE there in that universe?



This whole female character controversy is getting a bit overblown, I think. We're only in the beginning of season two of this show. We have NO idea what Ciro's got up his sleeve. His ideas may change over time - he may simply be misleading us. We can't predict what he's going to come up with in the future. And he CAN'T tell us EVERYthing... he's created Great female characters so far.. Does that mean nothing?

Ya know, everyone treated Ciro like this when he first started sharing details about the new show a couple years back: Ciro's terrible, he doesn't care about the viewers, he's destroyed April, he's childhood-raping the fandom... and now many of the same people who cried foul are loving the show.

The fans are doing the same thing All Over Again. A knee-jerk reaction to something they haven't even Seen yet.

Personally, I will not label him or anybody as sexist or 'he-man-woman-hater' or whatever. He's got a plan, he can't tell us everything... And really, I don't want a female character just so that the vagina-to-penis ratio is closer to equal. I want a female character that is well-written with a good backstory AS LONG as it fits into the storyline.

[Konchadunga]

Don't worry, I understand how backwards western cartoons/toy companies are back then. It's why I switched to anime as a teen. I don't need to get hung up on Korra not getting an action figure because I can get a Mikasa Ackerman one.

However, it's 2013. Girls can play action figures now. Guys watch My Little Pony. It doesn't need to be "it's always like this" mantra anymore.

Correction: Grown guys watch it. Boys the age of its target demographic, though, are too grotesquely macho to like it. At least, Tara Strong's sons are; according to her. Remember that at a certain age, boys just think girls are gross. For this reason, probably the best tactic for that age is, in fact, making girls "cool" for boyish sensibilities. Being able to fight well may not be sufficient characterization for adult opinion's, but it helps boys tolerate girls in a way they wouldn't otherwise. The same diverse personalities they crave in male turtles; they don't want to touch in female ponies, because apparently having a personality is just being girly.

I still say Ciro Nielli is a hypocrite, though. If he's worried about the overly feminine tone that multiple females will bring to the show, then why is he making Don's crush on April such a big part of it, when that attracts mostly females, and estranged males? Why are there Barbie commercials during the show? Granted; those aren't his fault directly, but if they're proof Nielli's already attracted females, why not throw them a bone?

[Avatar Yuffie]

Andrew, a question for you: Ciro said that he's basing a chunk of the show on the mirage comics. How many female characters ARE there in that universe?



This whole female character controversy is getting a bit overblown, I think. We're only in the beginning of season two of this show. We have NO idea what Ciro's got up his sleeve. His ideas may change over time - he may simply be misleading us. We can't predict what he's going to come up with in the future. And he CAN'T tell us EVERYthing... he's created Great female characters so far.. Does that mean nothing?

Ya know, everyone treated Ciro like this when he first started sharing details about the new show a couple years back: Ciro's terrible, he doesn't care about the viewers, he's destroyed April, he's childhood-raping the fandom... and now many of the same people who cried foul are loving the show.

The fans are doing the same thing All Over Again. A knee-jerk reaction to something they haven't even Seen yet.

Personally, I will not label him or anybody as sexist or 'he-man-woman-hater' or whatever. He's got a plan, he can't tell us everything... And really, I don't want a female character just so that the vagina-to-penis ratio is closer to equal. I want a female character that is well-written with a good backstory AS LONG as it fits into the storyline.

Ugh, I defended April in the first season, alright? I also didn't like the cries of "Karai's character is only defined as Leo's love interest!!!!" either.

However, the fact Ciro said Karai and April are enough female representation, while getting more OC male mutants, and that he was personally burdened by April's character (so why make her a teen then? Why not a working adult so she'd appear only when it's convenient like 4Kids did?) is what bugs me.

[BabyTurtles]

... he's created Great female characters so far.. Does that mean nothing?



You mean the girl who's an awesome villain with a cool backstory?
or the girl who's main purpose is to help Donnie be awkward and move the plot?
cause if so...he's made ONE great female character.........:ohwell:

[Machias Banshee]

Oh don't worry, Yuffie, I'm not being specific to individuals in the thread. I just mean the fandom in general.. :)

April's character was a major topic of discussion back at the Studio event several years back. There was a mix of "She's okay" and "Why isn't she older and a tv reporter?"

Ciro wanted a younger April that could kinda grow and learn and mature alongside the turtles, but people were so stuck in the idea of having a 30-something news-reporter no matter what... they just couldnt' wrap their heads around it.

[demonsweat]

Andrew, a question for you: Ciro said that he's basing a chunk of the show on the mirage comics. How many female characters ARE there in that universe?



This whole female character controversy is getting a bit overblown, I think. We're only in the beginning of season two of this show. We have NO idea what Ciro's got up his sleeve. His ideas may change over time - he may simply be misleading us. We can't predict what he's going to come up with in the future. And he CAN'T tell us EVERYthing... he's created Great female characters so far.. Does that mean nothing?

Ya know, everyone treated Ciro like this when he first started sharing details about the new show a couple years back: Ciro's terrible, he doesn't care about the viewers, he's destroyed April, he's childhood-raping the fandom... and now many of the same people who cried foul are loving the show.

The fans are doing the same thing All Over Again. A knee-jerk reaction to something they haven't even Seen yet.

Personally, I will not label him or anybody as sexist or 'he-man-woman-hater' or whatever. He's got a plan, he can't tell us everything... And really, I don't want a female character just so that the vagina-to-penis ratio is closer to equal. I want a female character that is well-written with a good backstory AS LONG as it fits into the storyline.

QFT

I enjoy a show for a variety of reasons, not because I can check off the demographics it represents on a scorecard. Sounds like they have big plans for both Karai and April, so I agree with you - better to flesh out the existing female characters than to try and squeeze in more just for the sake of doing so. :ohwell:

[Avatar Yuffie]

Oh don't worry, Yuffie, I'm not being specific to individuals in the thread. I just mean the fandom in general.. :)

April's character was a major topic of discussion back at the Studio event several years back. There was a mix of "She's okay" and "Why isn't she older and a tv reporter?"

Ciro wanted a younger April that could kinda grow and learn and mature alongside the turtles, but people were so stuck in the idea of having a 30-something news-reporter no matter what... they just couldnt' wrap their heads around it.

April's sadly underused. The first season proved that (when I can't explain to a non-viewer why the Kraang are after her in the first place, that's troublesome, and I understand End of Evangelion). I hope that'll change in the second one.

Again, if Ciro had trouble with her, he should have not bothered to make her the Turtles' age/Don's tween crush in the first place.

[BabyTurtles]

April's sadly underused. The first season proved that. I hope that'll change in the second one.

Again, if Ciro had trouble with her, he should have not bothered to make her the Turtles' age/Don's tween crush in the first place.

I just don't get why he has trouble with her though.......she doesn't have to do much.....she could be a supportive sister, someone to talk to other than Splinter.

kinda like 2003 April.

[Heather Breckel]

Too bad females are so bothered by males.

Being bothered by lack of female characters ≠ females being bothered by males. I'm okay with shows having primarily male characters, I mean I'm obviously a TMNT fan and I enjoy a lot of shonen manga. The problem isn't that TMNT is mostly males. The problem is the silly reasoning behind not wanting to have more female characters.

I truly believe Ciro wasn't trying to be offensive and I'm sure there will be more female characters down the line. But lack of female representation in American entertainment is kind of a hot button issue right now, so obviously what he said is going to cause some sparks, especially on a place like tumblr. I mean, this is hot on the heels of a Disney animator saying "females are hard to animate", so of course it's going to blow up.

[miru]

Well.. the show is about mutants... and having a vagina automatically cancels out the effects of mutagen... so... no female mutant characters. Honestly though... Mutagen rains all over the city and not one female mutant. Sexist fools.

The mutant wasp monster was female, but it wasn't sapient. Also, who knows if the Squirellanoids were male or female? Or Justin, the Sea Monster, et al.

[turtletoons81]

Being bothered by lack of female characters ≠ females being bothered by males. I'm okay with shows having primarily male characters, I mean I'm obviously a TMNT fan and I enjoy a lot of shonen manga. The problem isn't that TMNT is mostly males. The problem is the silly reasoning behind not wanting to have more female characters.

I truly believe Ciro wasn't trying to be offensive and I'm sure there will be more female characters down the line. But lack of female representation in American entertainment is kind of a hot button issue right now, so obviously what he said is going to cause some sparks, especially on a place like tumblr.

true i thought ciro was giving his own thoughts on female's for next season or so ,but what he didn't know that it caused a huge sh*tstorm at tumblr that some people already made a petiton to kick him out which is insanely stupid just because of he gave a thought on tmnt female's future works

[BabyTurtles]

true i thought ciro was giving his own thoughts on female's for next season or so ,but what he didn't know that it caused a huge sh*tstorm at tumblr that some people already made a petiton to kick him out which is insanely stupid just because of he gave a thought on tmnt female's future works

whoa whoa whoa! I want more females but I don't wanna get rid of Ciro!! what he has made is awesome!! XD these turtles are da best

I'm just sad that he isn't trying a little harder to put more girls in the show...I'm sure he can do it

[Heather Breckel]

To be fair, everyone gets upset about everything on tumblr, so I try not to take it too seriously. I'm sure Ciro won't get in any serious trouble over an internet petition. (at least I hope not!)

[turtletoons81]

whoa whoa whoa! I want more females but I don't wanna get rid of Ciro!! what he has made is awesome!! XD these turtles are da best

I'm just sad that he isn't trying a little harder to put more girls in the show...I'm sure he can do it

he's a great guy no doubt,but yeah i wished he made more females but sadly he has to work 24/7 with the designs of new character's and expressions that make's him alot tired out.

[Powder]

To be fair, everyone gets upset about everything on tumblr, so I try not to take it too seriously. I'm sure Ciro won't get in any serious trouble over an internet petition. (at least I hope not!)

Tumblr fans = some of the worst fans :trolleye:

[Technogeek29]

Tumblr fans = some of the worst fans :trolleye:

I rank it number 7 in terms of worse fandoms. Surpisingly Sonic is only number 3 for me.

[demonsweat]

Being bothered by lack of female characters ≠ females being bothered by males. I'm okay with shows having primarily male characters, I mean I'm obviously a TMNT fan and I enjoy a lot of shonen manga. The problem isn't that TMNT is mostly males. The problem is the silly reasoning behind not wanting to have more female characters.

I truly believe Ciro wasn't trying to be offensive and I'm sure there will be more female characters down the line. But lack of female representation in American entertainment is kind of a hot button issue right now, so obviously what he said is going to cause some sparks, especially on a place like tumblr. I mean, this is hot on the heels of a Disney animator saying "females are hard to animate", so of course it's going to blow up.

I agree. And I'd love to see more IPs with great female characters. But, consider this: is it fair to demonize or find fault with the creator(s) of a property for not representing a certain type of character, maybe one that they're not comfortable representing? It sounded to me like Ciro's tried to include females before and it hasn't always worked out the way he wanted it to (they end up overpowered, etc.) To me, that's him saying that this isn't one of his strengths, and so he's shying slightly away from doing it. I can't fault the guy for that. He's telling the story he wants to tell.

You write what you know. Some dudes write great women (Joss Whedon doesn't seem to struggle), some don't. I say, if you want something to change, go out and change it - create something of your own. It's good to open up discussion and inspire others, but I wouldn't necessarily come down on someone else for doing what they want to do. Isn't that what every artist strives for?

[CyberCubed]

Where is this tumblr stuff happening? Link?

[turtletoons81]

I rank it number 7 in terms of worse fandoms. Surpisingly Sonic is only number 3 for me.

what's number 2 pokemon? and number 1 final fantasy?

[Avatar Yuffie]

I agree. And I'd love to see more IPs with great female characters. But, consider this: is it fair to demonize or find fault with the creator(s) of a property for not representing a certain type of character, maybe one that they're not comfortable representing? It sounded to me like Ciro's tried to include females before and it hasn't always worked out the way he wanted it to (they end up overpowered, etc.) To me, that's him saying that this isn't one of his strengths, and so he's shying slightly away from doing it. I can't fault the guy for that. He's telling the story he wants to tell.

You write what you know. Some dudes write great women (Joss Whedon doesn't seem to struggle), some don't. I say, if you want something to change, go out and change it - create something of your own. It's good to open up discussion and inspire others, but I wouldn't necessarily come down on someone else for doing what they want to do. Isn't that what every artist strives for?

Artists should also be allowed to be criticized for their work as well.

I wouldn't have mind what Ciro said if the show was an original work of his... but this is TMNT that has different incarnations and different characters born from them, so no I can't accept that argument.

[Electric]

a petition to get rid of ciro....from his own creation...

i reallllly hope that that doesnt cause any problems because that is ridiculous.

i get that some people really want more girls in this show, and that they could contribute to it. but this show is about the 4 male turtles. naturally their audience is young boys. thats their target. if they believe adding more females to it would detract from their target audience, then i completely understand them not doing it. not every show is going to be 50/50 on male/female characters. thats how it is. luckily, in this show we have 2, very important, very developed, very influential female characters. why cant people just accept them. why do they feel that adding unnecessary female characters is required. if they dont fit in the idea of what these show creators have in mind, then they shouldnt have to.

I also think that people are misinterpretting what ciro meant. yes he said no more females in season 2. keywords: season 2. they only just started making the third season, whats to say all these female characters they could use wont come in in future seasons. would you rather them toss in random females now and not develop or focus on them until season 5?

and to people upset about ciro having trouble controlling april, i dont get it. since there are only 2 females, whenever theres a female focused episode, its on one of 2 characters. this shows how important these 2 characters are, and how they are a major part of the show. but yet, its still about the 4 turtles, so if april starts becoming this incredibly powerful influential character, that takes away from the real focus of the show. on another note, ciro even said that he first pitched the show, focused on april. if that had occurred, the show would still likely only have 2 females in it. because those are the 2 that are important to the show at this point in time.

also, the donnie crushing on april thing, while maybe feminine, was felt necessary. he made it clear it was for donnie who needed it. he felt that donnie needed someone to try and impress, so he gave him a crush on his best friend. while this could only attract females, the way its portrayed is goofy and develops donnie in a different way.

sorry for the rant but i think people are flipping out over something that really shouldnt be an issue in the first place

[CyberCubed]

Where is the tumblr? WHERE IS IT?

[demonsweat]

Artists should also be allowed to be criticized for their work as well.

I wouldn't have mind what Ciro said if the show was an original work of his... but this is TMNT that has different incarnations and different characters born from them, so no I can't accept that argument.

Hm. It is his version of the turtles, which is unique in it's own way. Besides, that doesn't make it easier for him to do/not do something. Hell, I'd even argue that the ladies in this version are progress compared to some (man-hungry Irma, anyone?) :D

And artists do have to deal with criticism, it comes with the territory and it's necessary to grow. I'm not saying these points aren't valid. But I think it's become commonplace to become too critical; too easy to hide behind our computers when giving criticism. I think it's important to remember that the people creating these properties don't owe us anything, they're trying their best to make something great. I think the discussion here has been fine... but a petition on tumblr? Is that for real?? :ohwell:


Tumblr fans = some of the worst fans :trolleye:

mmmyep.

[plastroncafe]

I can't even begin to tell you how stoked I am that people are talking about the one question I asked on the Podcast.

I love the new Turtle toon, but it's got a serious Lady Problem. Or what I should really call a "lack of lady" problem. I brought up the Bechdel Test because it's a simple measure of gender parity in media. Season One passes because of the limited interactions between April and Karai. My hope is that Season 2 will similarly pass.

Ciro's answer to my question was my least favorite part of his interview. He's a joy to talk to, and totally out geeked us at least once. I wasn't kidding when I said his version of Splinter is my overall franchise favorite incarnation of the character, and that I was sad I didn't get a chance to buy him a beer. Having said that, I found his answer to my question unsatisfying and troubling to say the least.

He said Teen Titans floundered because its female characters get too powerful. My response to that should have been to add more female characters to the regular roster, not limit their numbers. If there's only one or two girl characters then those characters have to be EVERYTHING, but if you have a lot of female characters then they don't have to be everything to everyone.

I didn't say this on the show because I didn't want to be rude, or make the show about me. I get that this topic isn't an issue for everyone, even if I wish that it was. Mostly though I want him to come back and talk with us again.

Look, TMNT may be targeted for boys, but that doesn't mean that girls don't watch it. Andrew even mentioned that he watches the show with his little girl. And what will she see? A good white girl and a bad girl of color. Madonna or whore. Those are her options, and that's...troubling, to put it mildly.

Representation matters.

[turtletoons81]

Where is the tumblr? WHERE IS IT?

go to google search up ciro neili tumblr and you'll see people's opinions on him it's pretty interesting should say at least.

[miru]

Well, do Ms. Campbell, the Wasp, and Spy-Roach count as female characters?

[CyberCubed]

Well, do Ms. Campbell, the Wasp, and Spy-Roach count as female characters?

Ms. Campbell is a robot, the wasp wasn't identifiable gender wise.

[turtletoons81]

Well, do Ms. Campbell, the Wasp, and Spy-Roach count as female characters?

well they're not character's that are important aside from ms. campbell and spy roach since they do appear time to time but all their motivations is kill and destroy something in their way/path.

[CyberCubed]

go to google search up ciro neili tumblr and you'll see people's opinions on him it's pretty interesting should say at least.

I did but I don't see the petition.

I gotta see some of this stupidity for myself. I bet it's filled with FemiNazi's too who make a big deal out of nothing.

[plastroncafe]

I did but I don't see the petition.

I gotta see some of this stupidity for myself. I bet it's filled with FemiNazi's too who make a big deal out of nothing.

Hi.
You now have my undivided attention.
Lack of representation is not "nothing."

Let's talk about this, and your use of the derogatory term "feminazi" further.

[CyberCubed]

Hi.
You now have my undivided attention.
Lack of representation is not "nothing."

Let's talk about this, and your use of the derogatory term "feminazi" further.

I'm talking about the people petitioning to get Ciro Nieli fired, not anyone here.

[plastroncafe]

I'm talking about the people petitioning to get Ciro Nieli fired, not anyone here.

Your use of both feminazi and the phrase "make a big deal out of nothing" says otherwise.

So let's talk.

[turtletoons81]

I'm talking about the people petitioning to get Ciro Nieli fired, not anyone here.

i think it's deleted since people that post stuff can delete the page they uploaded.

[CyberCubed]

Your use of both feminazi and the phrase "make a big deal out of nothing" says otherwise.

So let's talk.

I think there should be more females in the show though. Aren't we getting Irma soon?

I'd like to see Angel return too since IDW is using her. They can connect her to the April/Casey dynamic too.

[Electric]

Your use of both feminazi and the phrase "make a big deal out of nothing" says otherwise.

So let's talk.

the feminazi was out of line, but the making a big deal out of nothing i agree with.

this is a kids show aimed at boys. it focuses on 4 boys, their male master, their male enemy, with his male sidekicks. along with that, their is the boys female friend, their male friend, and the enemy's female (in this case) daughter. those are the components of this show. from the getgo boys out number girls. changing that could change the show. since this is aimed at boys, and it is believed by many shows that a large number of female characters detracts from their target male audience, i do not believe that adding more should be necessary. i think people should be happy that the two females play as big of role as they do, and are two incredible characters.

and i believe people are blowing this out of the water, as this shoudlve been what was expected

[plastroncafe]

Irma's inclusion was what I was alluding to when I asked him about the Bechdel test. I was attempting to get more information without going after specific spoilers.

His answer leads me to believe we're either not getting a new female character, or we are and all they're going to talk about is boys.

Neither of those answers is particularly pleasing to me.

With the exception of a April, Karai, a robot, and the Kraang leader, every character on that show has been male. That's not just inexcusable, it's lazy storytelling.

the feminazi was out of line, but the making a big deal out of nothing i agree with.

this is a kids show aimed at boys. it focuses on 4 boys, their male master, their male enemy, with his male sidekicks. along with that, their is the boys female friend, their male friend, and the enemy's female (in this case) daughter. those are the components of this show. from the getgo boys out number girls. changing that could change the show. since this is aimed at boys, and it is believed by many shows that a large number of female characters detracts from their target audience, i do not believe that adding more should be necessary. i think people should be happy that the two females play as big of role as they do, and are two incredible characters.

and i believe people are blowing this out of the water, as this shoudlve been what was expected

I believe you are wrong.
You seem to be suffering under the delusion that women don't outnumber men.
You also seem to be suffering under the delusion that boys are incapable of enjoying stories that involve female protagonists.

That's sad.

[NinjaMan]

I'm curious, to male Pony fans ask for more male characters in the cast since the show has 6 main female characters and other guest female characters?

[miru]

I know: maybe Playmates proposes a Mona Lisa/Ninjara/Venus/Alopex figure and tells Ciro to throw the character in to advertise the figure? Insane, but it works.

[Electric]

I believe you are wrong.
You seem to be suffering under the delusion that women don't outnumber men.
You also seem to be suffering under the delusion that boys are incapable of enjoying stories that involve female protagonists.

That's sad.

no, what i am trying to say, without stooping to the immaturity of attacking personal character, is that the basis of this show, the main characters that are essential, are more male. not saying that females cannot contribute, saying that they shouldnt be thrown in just to make it even.

to the second part, i never said that. you are jumping to false assumptions. i have no preference as to male/female characters. some of my favorite television/comic/movie characters are female. i dont think there is any relevance to whether a character is male or female. but what youre saying is that a show cannot be satisfying to girls if it involves mainly male protagonists. it goes both ways.

[plastroncafe]

I'm curious, to male Pony fans ask for more male characters in the cast since the show has 6 main female characters and other guest female characters?

That was quick. I was at least expecting a little back and forth before the MLP red herring was tossed into the ring.

You know...I think the Bronies are making a big deal out of nothing. They have a few male ponies on there, they should just be happy with those. Besides, they're all just creepy MRAs in triby's, so...why should we listen to them?

Oh wait...no. No I'm not going to treat your question the way mine has been treated through out this thread.

You're not wrong. There should be gender parity in all of our media. We live in a gender parity world, why shouldn't our popular fiction represent that?
Make every male-targeted cartoon pass the Bechdel test, and we can talk about creating gender parity on MLP.

Girls have no problem what so ever finding themselves in male characters. For generations we've had no choice in the matter. We should be happy for what we get. But...you ask one guy to identify with a female character, and the cries of sexism are deafening.


no, what i am trying to say, without stooping to the immaturity of attacking personal character, is that the basis of this show, the main characters that are essential, are more male. not saying that females cannot contribute, saying that they shouldnt be thrown in just to make it even.

to the second part, i never said that. you are jumping to false assumptions. i have no preference as to male/female characters. some of my favorite television/comic/movie characters are female. i dont think there is any relevance to whether a character is male or female. but what youre saying is that a show cannot be satisfying to girls if it involves mainly male protagonists. it goes both ways.

If you have no preference to male/female characters, then why should the gender of new characters matter at all? What would be the big deal if every mutant in season II was female?
Why is that not a possibility?

[CyberCubed]

Kraang Prime is male, not female. It only has a female VA.

Kraang Prime is intended to be a new incarnation of The Krang.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Irma's inclusion was what I was alluding to when I asked him about the Bechdel test. I was attempting to get more information without going after specific spoilers.

His answer leads me to believe we're either not getting a new female character, or we are and all they're going to talk about is boys.

Neither of those answers is particularly pleasing to me.

With the exception of a April, Karai, a robot, and the Kraang leader, every character on that show has been male. That's not just inexcusable, it's lazy storytelling.



Thank you for the interview. It really opened my eyes.

I'm bummed Irma is not a regular though, if Ciro saying Karai and April are enough.

And yes, it's lazy storytelling. No excuse.


Kraang Prime is intended to be a new incarnation of The Krang.

What happened to her? I haven't seen her since season 1.

[Electric]

If you have no preference to male/female characters, then why should the gender of new characters matter at all? What would be the big deal if every mutant in season II was female?
Why is that not a possibility?

i could really care less if every mutant from now on was female, or suddenly all these human females became important. but, it would have to work. and if ciro finds that it works better with most being males, then again, i could really care less.

what im saying is that some shows are going to have more males, some more females. there is no need for every show to be equally split, cause it can take away from the show. so, if one show is better for having a fewer females, or a fewer males, then there should not be a rampant cry for it to be equal.

tmnt, for its history, has had more males. if the writers of this incarnation see fit to only have a few females, then why not. girls can still find enjoyment out of it, just as boys can find enjoyment out of shows with mostly females.

[Jester]

You're not wrong. There should be gender parity in all of our media. We live in a gender parity world, why shouldn't our popular fiction represent that?
Don't take this the wrong way, but is there gender parity in your personal relationships? For every female friend do you have a male friend to balance it out? I know it's a flawed example, but it seem "gender specific media" could be seen in a similar light.

[Avatar Yuffie]

i could really care less if every mutant from now on was female, or suddenly all these human females became important. but, it would have to work. and if ciro finds that it works better with most being males, then again, i could really care less.

what im saying is that some shows are going to have more males, some more females. there is no need for every show to be equally split, cause it can take away from the show. so, if one show is better for having a fewer females, or a fewer males, then there should not be a rampant cry for it to be equal.

tmnt, for its history, has had more males. if the writers of this incarnation see fit to only have a few females, then why not. girls can still find enjoyment out of it, just as boys can find enjoyment out of shows with mostly females.

I disagree. There should be more.

Girls shouldn't have to "settle" for an all sausage fest show when this version introduces originals like Bradford and Xever but then shy away from creating females because of the assumption that "boys hates cooties". That's... stupid.

Are little boys really that spineless they can't handle this?

[plastroncafe]

And I'm saying I disagree with you.
When the answer to the question "Why not more girls?" is: We have two in a cast of tens. Then the answer is wrong.

It's lazy writing and it's insulting to actual girls.
You can be good or evil, but you'll always be just a love interest...and quite possibly a pawn.

At least in the Mirage books the turtles were themselves pawns in the game of revenge. In this incarnation...it's only Karai that's objectified that way.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be one of the loudest people shouting down the inclusion of Venus di Milo. Why? Because one of my favorite subplots of the TMNT is that they're the only four of their species, and they're all guys. There's a "all is suffering" to that aspect of their story that I love.

I love that it makes Raph angry, and Donnie stoic. I love that it doesn't phase Leo and Mike happy to be alive. It gives these characters a depth that's often unspoken and underutilized. It's a human tragedy to non-human characters.

I love it. I eat that stuff for breakfast.

But that doesn't mean I don't want there to be more female representation.
Ninjara.
Mona Lisa.
Irma.
Robin (April's Sister)
Casey's Mom.

These are all characters from other runs of the show who could easily make an appearance.

What about April's Aunt? What about Timothy's parents?
Are there really no female foot soldiers? Seriously?

[Electric]

I disagree. There should be more.

Girls shouldn't have to "settle" for an all sausage fest show when this version introduces original like Bradford and Xever and shy away from creating females because of the assumption that "boys hate cooties". That's... stupid.

again, youre saying that girls cannot enjoy a show that has a majority of male characters.

while subbing out bradford or xever for a girl wouldve been perfectly fine, it should be perfectly fine with them being as they are. and if this show sees it fit, and has plans for the male characters bradford to rahzar, fishface to armagedon, maybe? then there shouldnt be a problem with it. i know those were just examples, im just making the point that if they have characters be male for a reason, then people shouldnt say "well why arent they girls?"

[plastroncafe]

Don't take this the wrong way, but is there gender parity in your personal relationships? For every female friend do you have a male friend to balance it out? I know it's a flawed example, but it seem "gender specific media" could be seen in a similar light.

I didn't when I was a misogynist. Back when I thought girls were dumb for not liking things like comic books or cartoons. In those days I wouldn't have been caught dead watching My Little Pony. And She-Ra? That was just a crap watering down of the awesome that was He-Man.

When I was a kid the girl characters were stupid, always needing saving. Why would I want to be like one of them?

These days though...I do have a male friend for every female. I might even have more female friends than I do male, for the first time in my life. Why? Because we've found a way to talk about the things we like without having to resort to male spaces where we're clearly not welcome.

Tumblr Fans.
Someone used that as a backhand way to refer to female fans in this very thread.

We shouldn't have "girl shows" and we shouldn't have "boy shows." We should have kid shows. Cartoons should be for everyone.

[Avatar Yuffie]

again, youre saying that girls cannot enjoy a show that has a majority of male characters.

while subbing out bradford or xever for a girl wouldve been perfectly fine, it should be perfectly fine with them being as they are. and if this show sees it fit, and has plans for the male characters bradford to rahzar, fishface to armagedon, maybe? then there shouldnt be a problem with it. i know those were just examples, im just making the point that if they have characters be male for a reason, then people shouldnt say "well why arent they girls?"

Isn't Rahzar just a dog and had the intelligence of an infant? If Ciro can make a change from that original version are you telling me he can't do the same thing for characters like Mona to be included in the show?

And if Bradford was a woman, then turned Dogpound and had Rahzar as a girl, this is bad for the show how?

[demonsweat]

... There should be gender parity in all of our media.We live in a gender parity world, why shouldn't our popular fiction represent that? ...

???

Smart people encourage equality of the sexes, but let's be honest. The world's not really like that. As for fiction... I think fiction should be anything. I think any story can be told, regardless of who or what it represents. I know this story means a lot to you, it does to me too, I'm a fan. Sometimes you just have to accept that it's not going to satisfy everything you want. I don't think it's fair to pull in some "greater purpose" or imply that it's "keeping women down" just because it doesn't satisfy what you want. TMNT has always been a story about dudes to me... four guys and their master. Every other character is supporting, and who cares what the race/gender/orientation/mutation of those characters are? :ohwell:


If you have no preference to male/female characters, then why should the gender of new characters matter at all? What would be the big deal if every mutant in season II was female?
Why is that not a possibility?

You ask why the gender should matter, but you're not happy with the lean towards the male gender. I am confused.

[Heather Breckel]

I'm curious, to male Pony fans ask for more male characters in the cast since the show has 6 main female characters and other guest female characters?

I'm obviously not male, but I imagine no guys really make a big deal of it because the creators haven't said anything along the lines of "no more guy characters".

And to answer demonsweat's question, no, Ciro should not be demonized for what he said. Criticism is totally fine and it's a way to help every artist grow. But saying the guy should lose his job or is an evil misogynist over this is way out of line and is far more harmful than helpful. People go way too extreme on the internet sometimes.

I think that "there needs to be more female representation in popular media" is a totally valid and important criticism that needs addressed in the industry period. But harassing the guy through tumblr and internet petitions isn't the best way to go about it.

[plastroncafe]

???
Smart people encourage equality of the sexes, but let's be honest. The world's not really like that. As for fiction... I think fiction should be anything. I think any story can be told, regardless of who or what it represents. I know this story means a lot to you, it does to me too, I'm a fan. Sometimes you just have to accept that it's not going to satisfy everything you want. I don't think it's fair to pull in some "greater purpose" or imply that it's "keeping women down" just because it doesn't satisfy what you want. TMNT has always been a story about dudes to me... four guys and their master. Every other character is supporting, and who cares what the race/gender/orientation/mutation of those characters are? :ohwell:

Can I ask a question?
Are you a white male between the ages of 13 and 35?


You ask why the gender should matter, but you're not happy with the lean towards the male gender. I am confused.

I join you in confusion. If race/gender/orientation/mutation doesn't matter at all, then why does the show have to skew male at all? It seems to me that everyone cares. From the people saying those of us who'd like to see more representation are "making something out of nothing" to those who profess that they "have always seen this as a story about dudes."

[Electric]

And I'm saying I disagree with you.
When the answer to the question "Why not more girls?" is: We have two in a cast of tens. Then the answer is wrong.

It's lazy writing and it's insulting to actual girls.
You can be good or evil, but you'll always be just a love interest...and quite possibly a pawn.

At least in the Mirage books the turtles were themselves pawns in the game of revenge. In this incarnation...it's only Karai that's objectified that way.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be one of the loudest people shouting down the inclusion of Venus di Milo. Why? Because one of my favorite subplots of the TMNT is that they're the only four of their species, and they're all guys. There's a "all is suffering" to that aspect of their story that I love.

I love that it makes Raph angry, and Donnie stoic. I love that it doesn't phase Leo and Mike happy to be alive. It gives these characters a depth that's often unspoken and underutilized. It's a human tragedy to non-human characters.

I love it. I eat that stuff for breakfast.

But that doesn't mean I don't want there to be more female representation.
Ninjara.
Mona Lisa.
Irma.
Robin (April's Sister)
Casey's Mom.

These are all characters from other runs of the show who could easily make an appearance.

What about April's Aunt? What about Timothy's parents?
Are there really no female foot soldiers? Seriously?

the first part bothers me, because both april and karai have been proven to be more than that. april, while she is a love interest, doesnt let it define her, shes becoming a fighter, shes defending her family, shes helping her friends, she makes mistakes, shes herself. Karai isnt even a love interest anymore, and shes not just evil. thats karais character, she borders between both. she lives under a false childhood, tries please her father, and presumably soon, will have to deal with struggling with who she really is. That doesnt just sound like good and evil to me.

the way i see people taking this is that ciro put karai and april in to appease the need for females. which is wrong. he included them because they are necessary. they contribute. would aprils aunt really contribute to the turtles? maybe. is it necessary to them? no.

you seem to think im running an anti female campaign. which is false. im rooting for irma and mona lisa to show up. irma i think will develo april and mona lisa could develop raph. another one you didnt mention is angel, who is number 1 on my list of characters who i want to appear.

foot soldiers have generally always looked the same. half of them could be girls, we just dont know. and in terms of kraang, they added ms. campbell, a female kraang droid. if your upset about foot soldiers, atleast notice that.

what i am again trying to make clear is that no, shows are not always going to be equally distributed between males and females. whichever way it leans, if thats how it is to make the show good, then why should it need to be different. tmnt, has been, and is, a show with a more male based cast. thats how it is. the main recurring characters are mostly males. however, in terms of being a protagonist, besides the turtles who the show revolves around, april and karai are definitely next. so yeah, while they couldve switched or added a male for a female here, it still would be uneven.

[Konchadunga]

I'm curious, to male Pony fans ask for more male characters in the cast since the show has 6 main female characters and other guest female characters?

I sure didn't, though I was offended that the male ponies who originally had the biggest roles were Sticks and Snails, retarded and unpleasant male stereotypes. Also, that Big Macintosh's vocabulary was dumbed down. The few "straight" male ponies also seem mostly intended as dull love interests for more prominently featured females. It's pretty far down my list of issues with the show, though. Which brings us to:


You're not wrong. There should be gender parity in all of our media. We live in a gender parity world, why shouldn't our popular fiction represent that?
Make every male-targeted cartoon pass the Bechdel test, and we can talk about creating gender parity on MLP.

Typical feminist crap. "We've been treated badly for years; therefor you owe us and we should be able to get away with bad things and you shouldn't?" People won't respect your arguments when you play that card.

The reason this gender parity thing is a bad standard is because having more characters isn't necessarily better. Necessarily, having better characters is better. April and even Karai leave a lot to be desired in my opinion, but nevertheless, I'd prefer a few female characters that are well-written; not a bunch that aren't. The same with the male characters, in fact. If you can only do a lot of characters badly, then instead do a few characters well. I might be abl to give a crap about this Bechel Test bit if I was under any delusion that this show was specifically intended to be chock-full of good character development and life lessons, regardless of gender, but I'm not naive. The underlying factor is toy-sales, and I'm sorry, but there, you're fighting a battle you can't win; the best you'll get is the revenge of girl shows under-representing males in kind. The men and women who make toys and shows aren't necessarily stupid or sexist, but you know who usually are? The young boys and girls who consume them.

You're viewing this through adult eyes, and acting like adult males are your enemy here for propagating a sexist situation. We're not, but all of your population census is completely irrelevant next to the statistics of what kids like and don't like at that age. Sorry, but statistically, people are far more interested in the same sex at that age. Sorry, but it's a verifiable trend that female action figures do not sell as well. Sorry, but it's been verified that pink ponies sell better to girls than white ones. So what are you going to do; tell companies they should make less money? Tell a bunch of kids they're stupid? Well good luck with that, but in the meantime, don't go whining to us or Ciro Nielli as though we caused this.

[Avatar Yuffie]

the first part bothers me, because both april and karai have been proven to be more than that. april, while she is a love interest, doesnt let it define her, shes becoming a fighter, shes defending her family, shes helping her friends, she makes mistakes, shes herself. Karai isnt even a love interest anymore, and shes not just evil. thats karais character, she borders between both. she lives under a false childhood, tries please her father, and presumably soon, will have to deal with struggling with who she really is. That doesnt just sound like good and evil to me.

the way i see people taking this is that ciro put karai and april in to appease the need for females. which is wrong. he included them because they are necessary. they contribute. would aprils aunt really contribute to the turtles? maybe. is it necessary to them? no.

you seem to think im running an anti female campaign. which is false. im rooting for irma and mona lisa to show up. irma i think will develo april and mona lisa could develop raph. another one you didnt mention is angel, who is number 1 on my list of characters who i want to appear.

foot soldiers have generally always looked the same. half of them could be girls, we just dont know. and in terms of kraang, they added ms. campbell, a female kraang droid. if your upset about foot soldiers, atleast notice that.

what i am again trying to make clear is that no, shows are not always going to be equally distributed between males and females. whichever way it leans, if thats how it is to make the show good, then why should it need to be different. tmnt, has been, and is, a show with a more male based cast. thats how it is. the main recurring characters are mostly males. however, in terms of being a protagonist, besides the turtles who the show revolves around, april and karai are definitely next. so yeah, while they couldve switched or added a male for a female here, it still would be uneven.

You seem to be confused.

I want female characters, but I don't want them to be in the main group. Fine, if you think April and Karai as major characters should be sufficient.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE TO BE THE ONLY GIRLS THERE.

I don't want Ninjara or Mona or Oyuki or Angel or Irma to be "main characters". I just want them there because they're rather popular characters who happen to be female and Ciro not considering them to be there for season 2 is huge punch in the gut, considering classics like Mutagen Man and Slash are there.

[Powder]

Tumblr Fans.
Someone used that as a backhand way to refer to female fans in this very thread.

Don't drag me into your little temper tantrum, especially if you're not going to address me by name. My post history here is proof enough I've never been anything short of direct, so don't put words in my mouth.

[Electric]

Isn't Rahzar just a dog and had the intelligence of an infant? If Ciro can make a change from that original version are you telling me he can't do the same thing for characters like Mona to be included in the show?

And if Bradford was a woman, then turned Dogpound and had Rahzar as a girl, this is bad for the show how?

Can I ask a question?
Are you a white male between the ages of 13 and 35?

I join you in confusion. If race/gender/orientation/mutation doesn't matter at all, then why does the show have to skew male at all? It seems to me that everyone cares. From the people saying those of us who'd like to see more representation are "making something out of nothing" to those who profess that they "have always seen this as a story about dudes."

1. yuffie, again im not against mona, but yes rahzar has generally been a male. so unless changing him to female adds to they story, then why do it?

2. cafe, you need to quit judging personal character from this. i can make assumptions about you based off the way you post, but it doesnt get anywhere in this post, is rude, immature, and unecessary. reply to posts with a reason other than insult.

3. it really shouldnt matter. if everyone besides the main characters was female and it worked, i could care less. what im saying is the main characters than occur through all incarnations are generally male. no its not "a show about dudes". but the story is based around mostly male characters. and unless we change a turtle or 2 and shredder into females, it will have mostly male characters. and if girls enjoy the story, it should not matter to them, the number of females in the show.

and yuffie to your newer post, if ciro doesnt see them necessary to season 2, that shouldnt bother you. this show will hopefully continue running for awhile and i would bet a lot that in another season or 2 we will get more female characters that they see fit. and im sure when they are added, they will contribute and benefit the show.

[plastroncafe]

Karai's whole identity now is as a pawn. She doesn't know she's a pawn, but that's the whole reason Shredder took her from Yoshi: as weapon of revenge.
He quite literally objectified her.

I'm not saying that's inherently bad, because narratively it's interesting. It gives her a space to grow and change as a character. I'm always interested in characters gaining additional dimension.

But let's not forget that even Ciro said: Good, Evil. Enough.
And that's not enough, it's lazy.

Half the foot soldiers are female? Show, don't tell. That's the first rule of storytelling.

Turtles has always had a male dominated cast, that is true. But just because that's how it used to be doesn't mean that that's how it has to be now. The only reason not to add more female characters, while tacking on more male characters, is the belief that "too many female characters is bad somehow."

Why?


2. cafe, you need to quit judging personal character from this. i can make assumptions about you based off the way you post, but it doesnt get anywhere in this post, is rude, immature, and unecessary. reply to posts with a reason other than insult.

It's rude and immature of me to ask if you're a white guy? Seriously?

And Powder, if I apologize for not quoting you verbatim, will you apologize for being dismissive and accusatory?

Actually, no. Scratch that. I didn't quote you because I read it in passing and didn't think it what you were saying was important enough to warrant more than an eyeroll. I see that sort of thing all the time: Because tumblr has a sizable female population anything said there is dismissed out of hand as histrionic and hyperbolic. I mean...to be honest I'm pretty surprised it took five pages for someone to whip out the feminazi card.

[Avatar Yuffie]

1. yuffie, again im not against mona, but yes rahzar has generally been a male. so unless changing him to female adds to they story, then why do it?

2. cafe, you need to quit judging personal character from this. i can make assumptions about you based off the way you post, but it doesnt get anywhere in this post, is rude, immature, and unecessary. reply to posts with a reason other than insult.

3. it really shouldnt matter. if everyone besides the main characters was female and it worked, i could care less. what im saying is the main characters than occur through all incarnations are generally male. no its not "a show about dudes". but the story is based around mostly male characters. and unless we change a turtle or 2 and shredder into females, it will have mostly male characters. and if girls enjoy the story, it should not matter to them, the number of females in the show.

For a person who doesn't care you sure argue a lot why Rahzar can't be a girl. Rahzar tried to be the Bebop and Rocksteady of the live action movie, but he and Tokka never really pulled it off.

I don't see the difference, really, if they'd turn into female characters. Fans would be a lot outraged making Bebop and Rocksteady women IMHO.

I'm not gonna reply to you anymore, ElectricN, I feel you just don't take the problem seriously.

[Electric]

Karai's whole identity now is as a pawn. She doesn't know she's a pawn, but that's the whole reason Shredder took her from Yoshi: as weapon of revenge.
He quite literally objectified her.

I'm not saying that's inherently bad, because narratively it's interesting. It gives her a space to grow and change as a character. I'm always interested in characters gaining additional dimension.

But let's not forget that even Ciro said: Good, Evil. Enough.
And that's not enough, it's lazy.

Half the foot soldiers are female? Show, don't tell. That's the first rule of storytelling.

Turtles has always had a male dominated cast, that is true. But just because that's how it used to be doesn't mean that that's how it has to be now. The only reason not to add more female characters, while tacking on more male characters, is the belief that "too many female characters is bad somehow."

Why?

no her whole identity is not a pawn. she was a pawn to shredder. she is a daughter to splinter.

foot soldiers. fair enough its not shown. but also isnt fact. they could be. theres no definite fact they are 100% male.

and no, the belief isnt that it is bad. the belief is it is not necessary to tell the story of the 4 mutant turtles.

[demonsweat]

... We shouldn't have "girl shows" and we shouldn't have "boy shows." We should have kid shows. Cartoons should be for everyone.

Totally agree! Reminds me of a story. My niece, a few years older and much more "girly," in a sense, than my tomboy-ish daughter, once made fun of my little angel for playing with boys toys. I said to her, (and very proud of myself I might add) "there are no such things as 'boys toys' and 'girls toys!' Anyone can play with anything they want." Cut to a few years later and said niece is THE biggest TMNT fan on the planet. Needless to say, so is my little girl. :)


Can I ask a question?
Are you a white male between the ages of 13 and 35?

Nope! Try again. :D


I join you in confusion. If race/gender/orientation/mutation doesn't matter at all, then why does the show have to skew male at all? It seems to me that everyone cares. From the people saying those of us who'd like to see more representation are "making something out of nothing" to those who profess that they "have always seen this as a story about dudes."

It doesn't. But why can't it?


I'm obviously not male, but I imagine no guys really make a big deal of it because the creators haven't said anything along the lines of "no more guy characters".

And to answer demonsweat's question, no, Ciro should not be demonized for what he said. Criticism is totally fine and it's a way to help every artist grow. But saying the guy should lose his job or is an evil misogynist over this is way out of line and is far more harmful than helpful. People go way too extreme on the internet sometimes.

I think that "there needs to be more female representation in popular media" is a totally valid and important criticism that needs addressed in the industry period. But harassing the guy through tumblr and internet petitions isn't the best way to go about it.

Yup. :knucks:

[Electric]

For a person who doesn't care you sure argue a lot why Rahzar can't be a girl. Rahzar tried to be the Bebop and Rocksteady of the live action movie, but he and Tokka never really pulled it off.

I don't see the difference, really, if they'd turn into female characters. Fans would be a lot outraged making Bebop and Rocksteady women IMHO.

I'm not gonna reply to you anymore, ElectricN, I feel you just don't take the problem seriously.


my whole idea is: if it is not necessary, why do it?

if you dont want to reply, thats okay. because in my opinion, youre defending a problem that isnt really a problem in the first place.

should both genders have representation, yes. is it always going to be equal? no. but that shoudnt detract any enjoyment from a show, no matter which way it swings.

[Avatar Yuffie]

It's scary people insists the problem isn't a problem. It really is.

[Electric]

its upsetting people cant enjoy something thats been great the way it is simply because they believe it encompasses a problem in society, when its really not reflecting it at all

[plastroncafe]

Totally agree! Reminds me of a story. My niece, a few years older and much more "girly," in a sense, than my tomboy-ish daughter, once made fun of my little angel for playing with boys toys. I said to her, (and very proud of myself I might add) "there are no such things as 'boys toys' and 'girls toys!' Anyone can play with anything they want." Cut to a few years later and said niece is THE biggest TMNT fan on the planet. Needless to say, so is my little girl. :)

HA! I had a similar conversation with an 8 year old this one time. She asked me what toys I played with when I was a kid, and I told her one of my favorite cartoons was Turtles.

"Those're for boys."
To which I responded: Toys are for whomever wants to play with them.

She gave me a dubious look. Later in the evening, at dinner, her mother took me aside and said, "We didn't teach her that. Just so you know. Kids are just really conservative when it comes to the concept of gender and gender roles."

I know, I replied.

Nope! Try again. :D

And you really don't think representation isn't important? Or did I merely read you wrong?

It doesn't. But why can't it?


There's nothing inherently wrong with a show reading in a way that could be aligned with the current cultural expression of "masculine." But I reject the idea that this means it's only for boys.

its upsetting people cant enjoy something thats been great the way it is simply because they believe it encompasses a problem in society, when its really not reflecting it at all

I know those feels, yo.
It's equally upsetting when people deny that our popular culture reflects back on us our internalized beliefs even as it reinforces the status quo, for good or bad.

Girls aren't bad, but they shouldn't be on our cartoons for boys unless they serve a narrative purpose. Meaning...girls don't exist unless we need them too for some other reason. Though somehow...boys don't need a purpose, and can exist regardless.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Yeah, well, you go ahead and think like that.

Sorry it upsets you. But I don't.

[BabyTurtles]

I'm curious, to male Pony fans ask for more male characters in the cast since the show has 6 main female characters and other guest female characters?

at least the male ponies that do show up aren't just love interests and are interesting.


I loved TMNT as kid...I'm a girl. In fact you'd be surprised by how many girls do! my sister loved TMNT, my friend (thats a girl) loved TMNT....what am I saying....ALL MY FRIENDS THAT ARE GIRLS LOVED TMNT!!

representation matters SOO much...if more girls were put in boys shows even MORE girls would watch it. but don't just put any girls in the show....girls with some actual depth and personality! (like the boys)

like Steven Universe or Adventure time!! IT CAN BE DONE!! it has been done.

[Electric]

I know those feels, yo.
It's equally upsetting when people deny that our popular culture reflects back on us our internalized beliefs even as it reinforces the status quo, for good or bad.

Girls aren't bad, but they shouldn't be on our cartoons for boys unless they serve a narrative purpose. Meaning...girls don't exist unless we need them too for some other reason. Though somehow...boys don't need a purpose, and can exist regardless.

i mean, ive tried to explain it countless times. tmnt shouldnt be just a boys show. it should be for anyone. but with that, it also shouldnt matter the boy to girl ratio.

the show happens to have a majority male audience. thats not the shows fault. thats just how it is.

ive told you, i agree that they couldve include some female mutants as fillers instead of some of the male fillers. but they didnt. and in my opinion, that shouldnt matter. so no, girls can just exist, as can boys. the whole "serve a narrative purpose" is referring to gender bending male characters. theres no necessity to do so, so why do it.

once again, i seem to have to repeat myself, i am not against adding female characters, and encourage them to do so. but saying that girls shouldnt have to "settle" for this and that ciro saying there isnt any more females in season 2 is awful, is wrong. if girls are settling for a show, then they really dont like the show, the show is what it is. i would hope male and female alike could enjoy the show of tmnt. and if the show has only included new male characters for this season, oh well,theyre using this time to develop the 2 mosst important female characters. there are more seasons for them to introduce any number of the great female characters they could.

[demonsweat]

HA! I had a similar conversation with an 8 year old this one time. She asked me what toys I played with when I was a kid, and I told her one of my favorite cartoons was Turtles.

"Those're for boys."
To which I responded: Toys are for whomever wants to play with them.

She gave me a dubious look. Later in the evening, at dinner, her mother took me aside and said, "We didn't teach her that. Just so you know. Kids are just really conservative when it comes to the concept of gender and gender roles."

I know, I replied.

They are, but a lot of that comes from their peers too, I think, especially with the little ones. My girl loves Leo, she's a leader at heart (and stubborn as hell, heh). And so I try to encourage that - lead others, I tell her. Be that beacon, teach the other kids to do what's right. See, toons like this make a big difference to kids, we tend to forget that. She's gonna take this on and learn from it, just like I did with the old show. And coming back around to the topic - I don't think male or female matters as much. The core values are heroism and family, and a good sense of humor... all the main things we love about it definitely come through to the kids. Gender equality... eh, it'll get there. It's a slow climb, but rush it and you'll only work against it, IMO.

And you really don't think representation isn't important? Or did I merely read you wrong?

SO wrong. C'mon, try me again. :D

There's nothing inherently wrong with a show reading in a way that could be aligned with the current cultural expression of "masculine." But I reject the idea that this means it's only for boys.

Nobody here is saying (nor did Ciro, IIRC) that this show is just for boys. Just because something features a lot of boys doesn't mean it's for boys. :D

[Electric]

They are, but a lot of that comes from their peers too, I think, especially with the little ones. My girl loves Leo, she's a leader at heart (and stubborn as hell, heh). And so I try to encourage that - lead others, I tell her. Be that beacon, teach the other kids to do what's right. See, toons like this make a big difference to kids, we tend to forget that. She's gonna take this on and learn from it, just like I did with the old show. And coming back around to the topic - I don't think male or female matters as much. The core values are heroism and family, and a good sense of humor... all the main things we love about it definitely come through to the kids. Gender equality... eh, it'll get there. It's a slow climb, but rush it and you'll only work against it, IMO.



SO wrong. C'mon, try me again. :D



Nobody here is saying (nor did Ciro, IIRC) that this show is just for boys. Just because something features a lot of boys doesn't mean it's for boys. :D

i completely agree with all of this. and i dont know if you mind me bringing this up, but the fact that your daughter finds interest in leo, and that you discuss the point of the show, regardless of the characters gender, is what ive been (ineffectively) trying to say.

it shouldnt be a boys show. everyone should enjoy it. and people should be able to like and relate to characters regardless of gender.

so thanks:)

[Cure]

girls can still find enjoyment out of it, just as boys can find enjoyment out of shows with mostly females.

This is exactly it. The retarded notion that people can only relate to or even look up to people exactly like them is dumb.

My friend's niece once wanted to be Batman for Halloween. Not Batgirl, not Batwoman or something, but BATMAN. And she was. She wasn't wrong for looking up to Batman.

The problem is the word representation. Not everyone is represented everywhere, that's just how it is. I went to High School in an all black high school in Jersey City. I don't think I was a racist for not looking for white, Asian, Native American or Alaskan people to hang out with. They just, you know, weren't around. I also hung out with mostly guys. So I guess I'm sexist...?

If people really are all about equality, anyone should be able to be a role model to anyone, regardless of gender, ethnicity, or whatever.

And before someone asks, no I'm not a white male. I don't need people to look like me in sh*t I watch.

[SpiderFly]

So i'm a new fan here who has heard the podcast and has been taking issue with Ciro's comments about female characters.

A lot of people are saying, "Well, it's a boy's show. What did you expect? It's about four BROTHERs and their FATHER. It's specifically aimed at BOYS."

-So little girls can relate to boy characters but the opposite cannot be true?
-Girls do watch this show and do deserve characters that reach out to them as well
-BOYS deserve strongly written female characters just as much as girls do! Kids are sponges. Little boys are going to watching this and (though unrealistically) draw behavior and mindsets from these characters. Which leads to my main issue with the series and its lack of female representation.

FOCUS on the turtles and Splinter but populate your supporting cast with diverse characters. Could one of the cops in "Mutagen Man Unleashed" have been female? Could the sewer guy being attacked by leatherhead or eating popcorn been female? News Anchor? Foot ninja? Henchman? Mutant?

People are saying that if gender doesn't really matter with characters then why are others so sensitive about characters keeping their previous male gender? But, male characters don't have the widespread problem of being underrepresented. And absence IS noticeable. Not seeing female characters in different roles is like saying females are denied those roles. Or, that only males can have those roles. The only main females on this show are love interests ( not just love interests, but still).
What is that saying? What is that saying to boys? Having more female characters, characters that aren't love interests for example, allows the female characters you do have to not have the burden of being the sole representation for the female gender. She doesn't have to be a perfect Amazon woman in order to make a better presentation of the opposite sex to young boys.(which is the problem I think Ciro was referring to when he mentioned "over-powered" female characters) That's my dream. But . . .

There are two things running against this though:

1. Budget. They don't have the money to really build a lot of character models.

2. Ciro doesn't have a lot of faith in himself when it comes to female characters. He has written good ones in the past but I can really see him struggle with April's characterization in the show. It's wrong of him to completely avoid the issue though. As said, females are roughly 50% of the population. It sounds kind of ridiculous that his solution to his flaw as a writer is to avoid opportunities to write more of them. Are we really that "alien" that you can write turtlemen, ratmen, aliens, etc. but you can't write us? And if he is still unwilling, he has his staff. Someone, anyone, among the crew working on this can't put two good cents in?

Despite all this, i think this show still has the chance to get on the ball with its female characters. I do enjoy this show. I really do enjoy this show, but I'm not going to ignore its flaws. I'm going to talk about them. Talking and discussion is what can really change things.

[demonsweat]

i completely agree with all of this. and i dont know if you mind me bringing this up, but the fact that your daughter finds interest in leo, and that you discuss the point of the show, regardless of the characters gender, is what ive been trying to say.

it shouldnt be a boys show. everyone should enjoy it. and people should be able to like and relate to characters regardless of gender.

so thanks:)

No, I don't mind, that's awesome! I mean, I do agree that I would like to see more good female role models, especially now that I have a little girl. Media is lacking, but not totally bereft. I just don't think the answer is to make everything fit a certain mold, but to make more variety. I want to encourage my daughter to get out there and fill that void, rather than trying to alter other people's works of art. :D

[BabyTurtles]

So i'm a new fan here who has heard the podcast and has been taking issue with Ciro's comments about female characters.

A lot of people are saying, "Well, it's a boy's show. What did you expect? It's about four BROTHERs and their FATHER. It's specifically aimed at BOYS."

-So little girls can relate to boy characters but the opposite cannot be true?
-Girls do watch this show and do deserve characters that reach out to them as well
-BOYS deserve strongly written female characters just as much as girls do! Kids are sponges. Little boys are going to watching this and (though unrealistically) draw behavior and mindsets from these characters. Which leads to my main issue with the series and its lack of female representation.

FOCUS on the turtles and Splinter but populate your supporting cast with diverse characters. Could one of the cops in "Mutagen Man Unleashed" have been female? Could the sewer guy being attacked by leatherhead or eating popcorn been female? News Anchor? Foot ninja? Henchman? Mutant?

People are saying that if gender doesn't really matter with characters then why are others so sensitive about characters keeping their previous male gender? But, male characters don't have the widespread problem of being underrepresented. And absence IS noticeable. Not seeing female characters in different roles is like saying females are denied those roles. Or, that only males can have those roles. The only main females on this show are love interests ( not just love interests, but still).
What is that saying? What is that saying to boys? Having more female characters, characters that aren't love interests for example, allows the female characters you do have to not have the burden of being the sole representation for the female gender. She doesn't have to be a perfect Amazon woman in order to make a better presentation of the opposite sex to young boys.(which is the problem I think Ciro was referring to when he mentioned "over-powered" female characters) That's my dream. But . . .

There are two things running against this though:

1. Budget. They don't have the money to really build a lot of character models.

2. Ciro doesn't have a lot of faith in himself when it comes to female characters. He has written good ones in the past but I can really see him struggle with April's characterization in the show. It's wrong of him to completely avoid the issue though. As said, females are roughly 50% of the population. It sounds kind of ridiculous that his solution to his flaw as a writer is to avoid opportunities to write more of them. Are we really that "alien" that you can write turtlemen, ratmen, aliens, etc. but you can't write us? And if he is still unwilling, he has his staff. Someone, anyone, among the crew working on this can't put two good cents in?

Despite all this, i think this show still has the chance to get on the ball with its female characters. I do enjoy this show. I really do enjoy this show, but I'm not going to ignore its flaws. I'm going to talk about them. Talking and discussion is what can really change things.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmyyevS7a41qfy34a.gif
thank you!

[Electric]

This is exactly it. The retarded notion that people can only relate to or even look up to people exactly like them is dumb.

My friend's niece once wanted to be Batman for Halloween. Not Batgirl, not Batwoman or something, but BATMAN. And she was. She wasn't wrong for looking up to Batman.

The problem is the word representation. Not everyone is represented everywhere, that's just how it is. I went to High School in an all black high school in Jersey City. I don't think I was a racist for not looking for white, Asian, Native American or Alaskan people to hang out with. They just, you know, weren't around. I also hung out with mostly guys. So I guess I'm sexist...?

If people really are all about equality, anyone should be able to be a role model to anyone, regardless of gender, ethnicity, or whatever.

And before someone asks, no I'm not a white male. I don't need people to look like me in sh*t I watch.

Yep. Exactly. People keep saying they need more females so the girls can relate to and enjoy the show. And that right now girls can only relate to "good or evil". Not true, girls can relate to anyone regardless. Leadership, anger, intelligence, fun loving, wisdom, loyalty, jealousy, confidence. They're all there for anyone, not just the gender that each respective character shows.

[Avatar Yuffie]

So i'm a new fan here who has heard the podcast and has been taking issue with Ciro's comments about female characters.

A lot of people are saying, "Well, it's a boy's show. What did you expect? It's about four BROTHERs and their FATHER. It's specifically aimed at BOYS."

-So little girls can relate to boy characters but the opposite cannot be true?
-Girls do watch this show and do deserve characters that reach out to them as well
-BOYS deserve strongly written female characters just as much as girls do! Kids are sponges. Little boys are going to watching this and (though unrealistically) draw behavior and mindsets from these characters. Which leads to my main issue with the series and its lack of female representation.

FOCUS on the turtles and Splinter but populate your supporting cast with diverse characters. Could one of the cops in "Mutagen Man Unleashed" have been female? Could the sewer guy being attacked by leatherhead or eating popcorn been female? News Anchor? Foot ninja? Henchman? Mutant?

People are saying that if gender doesn't really matter with characters then why are others so sensitive about characters keeping their previous male gender? But, male characters don't have the widespread problem of being underrepresented. And absence IS noticeable. Not seeing female characters in different roles is like saying females are denied those roles. Or, that only males can have those roles. The only main females on this show are love interests ( not just love interests, but still).
What is that saying? What is that saying to boys? Having more female characters, characters that aren't love interests for example, allows the female characters you do have to not have the burden of being the sole representation for the female gender. She doesn't have to be a perfect Amazon woman in order to make a better presentation of the opposite sex to young boys.(which is the problem I think Ciro was referring to when he mentioned "over-powered" female characters) That's my dream. But . . .

There are two things running against this though:

1. Budget. They don't have the money to really build a lot of character models.

2. Ciro doesn't have a lot of faith in himself when it comes to female characters. He has written good ones in the past but I can really see him struggle with April's characterization in the show. It's wrong of him to completely avoid the issue though. As said, females are roughly 50% of the population. It sounds kind of ridiculous that his solution to his flaw as a writer is to avoid opportunities to write more of them. Are we really that "alien" that you can write turtlemen, ratmen, aliens, etc. but you can't write us? And if he is still unwilling, he has his staff. Someone, anyone, among the crew working on this can't put two good cents in?

Despite all this, i think this show still has the chance to get on the ball with its female characters. I do enjoy this show. I really do enjoy this show, but I'm not going to ignore its flaws. I'm going to talk about them. Talking and discussion is what can really change things.

I really don't mind the lack of female footsoldiers because 1) they're robots now and 2) it's cgi I can understand they won't spend budget on individual mooks. It's also why I didn't complain about the kraang white man in suit robots.

Also good points! Thanks.

Oh, and one good girl archetype and one bad girl archetype =/= maxed girls, for those who don't get it up to now.

[CyberCubed]

Haha I found the tumblr link. LOL at the arguments.

[Shark_Blade]

^Share the link. I want to see the chaos.

[CyberCubed]

^Share the link. I want to see the chaos.

http://darthempress.tumblr.com/post/67231083230/karai-and-april-are-enough-female-characters-right

Read all the replies too.

[Shark_Blade]

Cheers. :D

[Avatar Yuffie]

Haha I found the tumblr link. LOL at the arguments.

And you call them feminazis? Jerk.

I know these people.

[plastroncafe]

I am so proud of that post, and all the likes and reblogs it garnered.
Especially the stuff coming out of tumblr user mooncalfe.

[BabyTurtles]

you guys are bumming me out....

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Rapunzel-Sad-Sigh-Reaction-Gif.gif

I just--uhhh....

you guys are just "whatever" on this whole thing and I'm just here legitimately sad that my favorite show won't be showing more girls.....I wanted more girls so bad.....I was okay with the lack of girls cause I was thinking "hey maybe next episode....or next season".....but now I know there won't be many......

http://31.media.tumblr.com/7b4a748a9820c83441502322698e8956/tumblr_miqalfxf711r1mr1po1_500.gif

forget it I'm going to bed.................

[Technogeek29]

So dies my hopes of Alopex in any media sometime this decade:(

[Shark_Blade]

I wouldn't worry much. People change their opinion all the time, and Greg Cipes' been bugging Ciro to give Mikey a girlfriend "on a daily basis".

Ciro also said he has a list of hundreds of characters to use, where generally by rule if he and his team can do it in good taste, and justify it, they'll go for it. Pretty sure females are in there too, so just let his creativity go with it. If he gets an inspiration to utilize a female character, they'll go for it.

It doesn't necessarily need to be another female character just for the sake of it to be another female character. Baxter is the only black person in the toon. Do we need to add another just for the sake of more black people? What about handicapped people? Do we need another Mr Murakami type of person, with a wheelchair maybe? No. The characters will come when it fits, not because people demand it to be shoehorned into the show. Like I said, it doesn't necessarily need to be another female character just for the sake of it to be another female character.

Just my opinion.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Fishface is POC. And once Baxter becomes a mutant, there won't be black people I suppose.

[CyberCubed]

Isn't Irma supposed to appear in the very NEXT episode anyway?

[Avatar Yuffie]

From what Ciro is implying, Irma would have a one episode role. She won't be important as Casey was, and any girl interaction would be April and Karai, who happened to be enemies.

Which is a shame, it's like saying April's important relationships are her dad, the Turtles and Casey.

[plastroncafe]

If that were the case I'd have expected Ciro's answer to have been different.

[CyberCubed]

He was trying to avoid mentioning spoilers. He mentioned nothing of Rahzar, as I assume this podcast was recorded a few days or a week before this weeks episode.

The characters he mentioned were ones he didn't intend to use. I laughed when he said, "What the hell am I going to do with Ace Duck?"

Haha. Even the original toon writers thought Ace Duck was a terrible character....nobody likes Ace Duck! :lol:

[Shark_Blade]

Poor Ace.

He kinda reminds me of Howard the Duck though. xD (my memory lingers on Nostalgia Critics's hilarious video: ducktits woohoo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tYzCDlBh9Q))

[Konchadunga]

http://darthempress.tumblr.com/post/67231083230/karai-and-april-are-enough-female-characters-right

Read all the replies too.

I actually have wondered if Nielli is scared of the notion of powerful women in general, and is erring to much on the cautious side. The moment of truth might be to ask him: Do you ever worry about men being too powerful? I still don't get why he thought Starfire and Raven were too powerful; if you get a follow-up, ask him that question. At least Karai's bastardization as Shredder's brown-noser wasn't his fault originally, and I do, in fact, like her more sassy attitude. I think April is just about the right power level. So to clarify my opinion, being "too powerful" is a moronic reason to not have more females in the show, and global gender parity is a moronic reason to have more females in the show.

Also, not to sound like a broken record, but really; on some days, I feel like I'm one of the few people who doesn't have blind faith in Nielli's direction. Teen Titans was a deeply flawed show; this is less flawed, but it still isn't doing everything as well as it could be. There's a lot of missed potential.

[drewizzle88]

im not coming here anymore, you guys are depressing.
get a sense of humor and start enjoying life.

I think Ciro said it best in his last post on this site. It's really no wonder he never visits anymore, after this we will probably be lucky to hear him speak so freely about the show again.

I also don't understand being super friendly to him on the podcast Plastron, then ripping what he said as a reply on this forum. You had him live why not bring these things up to him with the same amount of conviction you seem to have on here?

[Shark_Blade]

I feel that he was just expressing his experiences of handling super power girls. Yeah maybe it's best he doesn't visit the forum anymore... :(

Teen Titans was a deeply flawed show; this is less flawed, but it still isn't doing everything as well as it could be. There's a lot of missed potential.
Tell me what are the flaws of Teen Titans, and what shows in your opinion aren't as flawed.

[Powder]

I also don't understand being super friendly to him on the podcast Plastron, then ripping what he said as a reply on this forum. You had him live why not bring these things up to him with the same amount of conviction you seem to have on here?


http://i42.tinypic.com/21o8tau.gif

[Konchadunga]

I feel that he was just expressing his experiences of handling super power girls. Yeah maybe it's best he doesn't visit the forum anymore... :(


Tell me what are the flaws of Teen Titans,

Mostly, its humor, and its deliberate flanderization of the characters. Raven was not supposed to be a Goth girl, and Starfire was not supposed to be a ditz. The cartoon versions of the characters grew on me enough, but I really never liked the show's humor that much. I think Beast Boy may well have been the failed experiment that made Nielli decide to intervene in making sure Mikey wasn't too stupid. The jokes in general were more annoying than funny; I especially hated the stuck in TV episode, where it seemed like the writers never even watched the shows they were trying to parody.

Also, the adaptation of the Terra arc was just dumb. I'm not saying the original Judas Contract is some unassailable masterpiece; on the contrary, it's a dated story that required the Kitty Pryde bit of the X-Men to be fresh in readers' heads when they read Terra, because otherwise, the big shock that she's truly evil wouldn't be one. (Terra was overtly obnoxious.) Also, obviously now everyone knows how the story ends, so as it was, it's lost its punch and there's room for flexibility in adaptation, but the show did it extremely stupidly. In the show, instead of being evil, Terra's "dark secret" is that she can't control her powers. That's her flimsy excuse for leaving the Titans, and for signing up with a known criminal to learn to control them, when the Titans would be better mentors? Lame. Also lame is how she went from innocent girl, to completely indebted to Slade and hateful to the Titans, and then back to the good side in the end. That's a deliberate contradiction of the ending Marv Wolfman wrote, and that might have been okay had animated Terra actually been sympathetic, but even if she wasn't evil from the get-go, she still became evil for one of the stupidest reasons imaginable; that's not a character you really want to pity.

Oh, and that "Things Change" episode. Horrible way to go out! Shows should never end on a cliffhanger with unanswered questions. To be fair, the graphic novel adaptation elaborated it a little bit, but still, it was a stupid choice. That the movie had absolutely nothing to do with the parent plot, even with possibly the most interesting potential plot advanced in the form of vastly expanded membership, did not help.

Now all that said, still liked a lot of the show, but I like superhero shows in general. It's not one of the best.

and what shows in your opinion aren't as flawed.

Most of the other DC shows from the 1990s onward. The Bruce Timm Batman, Superman, and Justice League cartoons did about everything I could reasonably expect cartoons of those characters to do, and I feel much more work went into their animation. Also, Young Justice is basically a Teen Titans cartoon done right, and was almost the start of a new DC Animated Universe.

[Avatar Yuffie]

I stopped feeling sorry for Ciro when he said he didn't enjoy working with Raven and Starfire's characterizations. If fans call him out on this, let them.

I really like Teen Titans, wacky animesque things and all, so feeling devastated is an understatement.

Also, "I'm a guy and can't write girls therefore I will never use them" is a stupid excuse alright?

[Electric]

I think Ciro said it best in his last post on this site. It's really no wonder he never visits anymore, after this we will probably be lucky to hear him speak so freely about the show again.

I also don't understand being super friendly to him on the podcast Plastron, then ripping what he said as a reply on this forum. You had him live why not bring these things up to him with the same amount of conviction you seem to have on here?

Exactly. With such a negative reaction to this podcast I doubt we'll get anything more like this from him. He was trying to give some insight into the show and one thing he said turned into outrage leading to an online petition to get rid of him from his own show.

And really plastron. You seem awfully concerned with this. Why did you not ask any further into the question when he could reply and explain himself? Maybe if you had, he would've said something that would've pleased all the upset people. Maybe that there would be more girls in future seasons, or that he mispoke about just good and evil. If you really want him to do this again with you, why act fine when he's there and turn around and join in with the people who attack him?

[Colonel Schrader]

I think Ciro said it best in his last post on this site. It's really no wonder he never visits anymore, after this we will probably be lucky to hear him speak so freely about the show again.

I also don't understand being super friendly to him on the podcast Plastron, then ripping what he said as a reply on this forum. You had him live why not bring these things up to him with the same amount of conviction you seem to have on here?

THIS!!

1st they chased him away from the drome and now this.. he will probably not do stuff like this again. way 2 **** it up for the rest of us!!

[BubblyShell22]

Wow. This whole idea of there needs to be more female characters to balance out the male characters is honestly ridiculous. You have to remember that the main point of the show centers around the Turtles and Splinter. We don't need females shoehorned in just because there isn't a balance. Like Sweaty said, I'd like to see females as long as they contribute to the plot and are well-written characters who have a purpose to be there. Other than that, I could care less if we have more females on the show. April and Karai are enough for now because their stories are being told this season. Ciro probably said that so as not to give away things that he couldn't say. There may be more females in season three for all we know. Seriously, people are just blowing this out of proportion and really need to get a life.

I'm a female myself, but I enjoy shows aimed at guys. Hell, I used to watch Bravestarr and Dinosaucers with my brother, and those shows were aimed at boys. I didn't sit there and worry about the girls in the show. I just liked the show for what it was. Same goes for TMNT. I relate to Leo sometimes and he's my favorite Turtle, so that's cool for me. April and Karai are fine for now. If more females are added later on down the road, then cool. If not, oh well. Ciro is doing an amazing job, but the people who are bashing him are being totally unreasonable in their assessment of his words. No wonder he left this place.

[NinjaMan]

I think Ciro said it best in his last post on this site. It's really no wonder he never visits anymore, after this we will probably be lucky to hear him speak so freely about the show again.

I also don't understand being super friendly to him on the podcast Plastron, then ripping what he said as a reply on this forum. You had him live why not bring these things up to him with the same amount of conviction you seem to have on here?

Wow. This whole idea of there needs to be more female characters to balance out the male characters is honestly ridiculous. You have to remember that the main point of the show centers around the Turtles and Splinter. We don't need females shoehorned in just because there isn't a balance. Like Sweaty said, I'd like to see females as long as they contribute to the plot and are well-written characters who have a purpose to be there. Other than that, I could care less if we have more females on the show. April and Karai are enough for now because their stories are being told this season. Ciro probably said that so as not to give away things that he couldn't say. There may be more females in season three for all we know. Seriously, people are just blowing this out of proportion and really need to get a life.

I'm a female myself, but I enjoy shows aimed at guys. Hell, I used to watch Bravestarr and Dinosaucers with my brother, and those shows were aimed at boys. I didn't sit there and worry about the girls in the show. I just liked the show for what it was. Same goes for TMNT. I relate to Leo sometimes and he's my favorite Turtle, so that's cool for me. April and Karai are fine for now. If more females are added later on down the road, then cool. If not, oh well. Ciro is doing an amazing job, but the people who are bashing him are being totally unreasonable in their assessment of his words. No wonder he left this place.

Excellent post by these 2 users.

[BubblyShell22]

Thanks, NinjaMan. I'm glad you agree with me.

[DarkLightDragon]

I don't think telling people they should get a life simply because they raise some concerns about something they happen to like really makes you mature, but whatever.

[plastroncafe]

You know what's awesome? I actually addressed this very point in my first post in this thread, so rather than answer it again, I'll just promote it from a few pages ago:

I can't even begin to tell you how stoked I am that people are talking about the one question I asked on the Podcast.

I love the new Turtle toon, but it's got a serious Lady Problem. Or what I should really call a "lack of lady" problem. I brought up the Bechdel Test because it's a simple measure of gender parity in media. Season One passes because of the limited interactions between April and Karai. My hope is that Season 2 will similarly pass.

Ciro's answer to my question was my least favorite part of his interview. He's a joy to talk to, and totally out geeked us at least once. I wasn't kidding when I said his version of Splinter is my overall franchise favorite incarnation of the character, and that I was sad I didn't get a chance to buy him a beer. Having said that, I found his answer to my question unsatisfying and troubling to say the least.

He said Teen Titans floundered because its female characters get too powerful. My response to that should have been to add more female characters to the regular roster, not limit their numbers. If there's only one or two girl characters then those characters have to be EVERYTHING, but if you have a lot of female characters then they don't have to be everything to everyone.

I didn't say this on the show because I didn't want to be rude, or make the show about me. I get that this topic isn't an issue for everyone, even if I wish that it was. Mostly though I want him to come back and talk with us again.

Look, TMNT may be targeted for boys, but that doesn't mean that girls don't watch it. Andrew even mentioned that he watches the show with his little girl. And what will she see? A good white girl and a bad girl of color. Madonna or whore. Those are her options, and that's...troubling, to put it mildly.

Representation matters.
http://media.tumblr.com/0746171235942d4f0db22c9122cadf09/tumblr_inline_mg1by42yQE1r27rj5.gif

[NinjaMan]

You think Andrew is the only with a daughter here? My 4 year old loves this show. Guess who her favorite character, Donnie. She also likes Karai and April. My wife watches the show as well. Guess who her favorite character is. Mikey. Neither one of them are asking for more girls to show up because they can relate to each character despite the gender.

[sdp]

Only skimmed through the thread, I don't really like Ciro as a person, he was overly sensitive and dramatic when he used to post here. Regardless I don't understand the drama with female characters, It's a show and franchise that appeals to boys, always has and always will be. The TMNT fandom has always had a small but vocal female fanbase, sure in the original turtle fad there were more female fans but I don't think they complained too much about it since they were just kids. Too bad Ciro didn't choose his words carefully. But they are after all a small vocal minority who make tons of "shipping" fanart. I love having female characters in male oriented shows but TMNT does indeed have two important female characters with Karai/April, adding another one is a little too much. Avatar proves a franchise can work with a strong woman but this isn't Avatar, it's an established franchise with established characters like many other fictional universes.

Edit: Oh, my opinion changes slightly if he talks not having any more women in the show, having a guest character or female mutant is not asking for a lot, in fact that's what I'd like to see, my opinion above is only about having another "key" female character, which I also wouldn't mind but I wouldn't get angry if it didn't happen.


The characters he mentioned were ones he didn't intend to use. I laughed when he said, "What the hell am I going to do with Ace Duck?"

Haha. Even the original toon writers thought Ace Duck was a terrible character....nobody likes Ace Duck! :lol:

:( I like Ace Duck, he was one of my favorite figures as a kid.

Very funny reply, although ironically I think most of us would take Ace Duck over half the mutants they've created.

[Avatar Yuffie]

You think Andrew is the only with a daughter here? My 4 year old loves this show. Guess who her favorite character, Donnie. She also likes Karai and April. My wife watches the show as well. Guess who her favorite character is. Mikey. Neither one of them are asking for more girls to show up because they can relate to each character despite the gender.

Of course they won't ask for more girls. There won't be any.

How are you certain they won't like modern interpretation of Mona Lisa or Ninjara or Radical?

[plastroncafe]

You think Andrew is the only with a daughter here? My 4 year old loves this show. Guess who her favorite character, Donnie. She also likes Karai and April. My wife watches the show as well. Guess who her favorite character is. Mikey. Neither one of them are asking for more girls to show up because they can relate to each character despite the gender.

I'm sure that the fact that they're under the age of 5 and don't have much in the way of other options to choose from has anything what so ever to do with that preference.

For the record, back when I was a kid Raph was my favorite turtle. Still is, actually. Didn't care much for April or Irma, because they were Dragon Bait, but...damn if I didn't love Mona Lisa and Ninjara when they were finally introduced.

In fact, I really wanted little to nothing to do with April until I read the Mirage issue she narrates early in Volume One. "True Stories" I think it's called. Good issue, highly recommend it if you haven't read it already. Gives us some much needed character depth for everyone in the main cast.

[NinjaMan]

My wife is not 5 and she still isn't asking for new females. And my 4 year old has a ton options she watches ponies and princess stuff along with the turtles. So she isn't lacking in options.

[Shark_Blade]

http://i.imgur.com/XkOfrO6.png
http://i.imgur.com/8AHZpwC.png


See? Blowing things out of proportions, that's what these people do. The haters should be ashamed of themselves. :trolleye:

I'm glad Ciro's taking it with strides.

[plastroncafe]

Taking it all in stride, and blaming me for his poor turns of phrase.
Et tu, Ciro? Et tu?

I find it interesting that everyone else should have to reconsider the power of their words, except for you know...him.

He's not wrong though, Internet Toughguys are bullies and they are damaging. Though...a good chunk of the stuff I've seen on the tumblr link that was posted here was nothing like that.

And ugh...really? He's holding up Jean and Scott as paragons? Jean "I should have my own Lazarus Pit By now" Grey? No wonder.

[NinjaMan]

I feel bad for him. Fandoms can be so horrible.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Glad Ciro wasn't that broken up about it then.

[plastroncafe]

I feel bad that he feels threatened, and that fan spaces aren't safe spaces for him.

I know how it feels, and it's crap. He has my empathy.

[Avatar Yuffie]

Female Bebop and Rocksteady though. I'm interested.

[Colonel Schrader]

here you have the show creator who goes out of his way to be nice, talk to the fans, give you info and this is what you guys do! you should be grateful that he decided to do your stupid little podcast in the 1st place! instead of taking what he said and twisting it and turning it into an issue.. he could get into trouble for this now! instead of asking him to elaborate on his answer and further questioning him when you had him, you ****ers go stab him behind the back, with your stupid little posts.. you think he is going to do more interviews and give you more info after all of this? he might even start loosing interest in tmnt because of how you guys act.. he might loose the passion he has for making the show, cause now he might feel like, no matter what he does, you suckers won't appreciate it and will hate on his work..

[miru]

Imagine them doing Mona Lisa and Angel as figures before they appear on the show to satiate the feminazis.

[LeotheLateBloomer]

I enjoyed this podcast. I find it weird how he's more a fan of the comics than the 87 toon when this show has a few 87 elements. Thankfully, Ciro understands how the TMNT works and was a fan of the comics. Another thing I find weird is that he thought of Karai's adopted daughter without looking at the 2k3 series. I don't believe that for a second. I'm pleased to hear that this show will go darker but not too dark. Ciro even admits that the earlier episodes were a bit too heavy on humor like a sitcom and how he's moved away from that. I'm also pleased to know that the emoticons weren't done to mirror Teen Titans but expressions that sort of takes from comic book style expressions. It seems like he really knows what he is doing.

So the reason for why there aren't many humans in the show is due to the lack of budget. Honestly, I don't really mind the lack of humans considering the fact that the turtles are trying to avoid being seen by them so from a logical stand point, it makes sense to go out at night when the coast is clear for the most part. Plus, with the exception of the main human cast (except Kirby), the human models look "bleh", imo.

To Ciro, just do your own thing with this show. It works better that way.;)

[kelligrafie]

I feel bad for him. Fandoms can be so horrible.

Yeah I saw today he's been getting threats and people are trying to get him kicked off the show. It's disgusting.

I feel like there's this Western philosophy that we always expect the worst.

Even on this forum, there's people, they've seen a 30 second trailer and then straight away all I read is "I hope they don't do this" "I can see it going down this route" "This looks like a fail of an episode".

And then when it isn't and the episode's brilliant, there's a sort of grudging "Oh, it actually turned out pretty good". It's almost as if people are wanting it to be a disaster.

They're blaming Ciro for things when it's their own personal negative assumptions. I haven't heard the whole podcast but even I can tell that it's a case of a comment being taken out of context.

[SpiderFly]

Why do you have to justify a character to be a girl to add a female character? Why does it have an "insert when applicable" in parentheses behind it but male characters do not?

Shows can still be aimed at boys. There's nothing wrong with having a target audience. But that doesn't mean the non-target audience has to suffer a lack of representation or misrepresentation. Falling into stereotypes, tropes, cliches for female characters on a boys show just because females aren't the target audience kills it for boys and how they look at people who aren't just like them. They need female influences/role models just as much as male ones. This is important.

Someone asked what if Rahzar was female?

Maybe we could have had a Crystal Bradford? A tough as nails woman who excelled in martial arts and opened her own chain of dojos. Someone, who just happened to be a woman, that Mikey chose to admire and look up to. Who felt that her mutation destroyed the martial arts legacy that she built up from the dust. And then, whose second mutation gave her the power and ferocity that she had longed for.

It's too late now, but this is an example of how proper representation could have been added, that would not have taken away the fact that this is still a boys aimed show.

[plastroncafe]

The threat, "I want to bathe in his unworthy blood" is a good example of Tumblr Commiseration Spiral Hyperbole. That I can so easily discount it as such doesn't make it any less problematic a comment, nor does it mean that I condone that sort of thing.

Words have power, and that person should apologize.

Just as people who bandy about feminazi and threaten people with disease ridden sexual organs. For some reason though...I'm not expecting the same call for measured discourse to come for those.

[Colonel Schrader]

The threat, "I want to bathe in his unworthy blood" is a good example of Tumblr Commiseration Spiral Hyperbole. That I can so easily discount it as such doesn't make it any less problematic a comment, nor does it mean that I condone that sort of thing.

Words have power, and that person should apologize.

Just as people who bandy about feminazi and threaten people with disease ridden sexual organs. For some reason though...I'm not expecting the same call for measured discourse to come for those.

dude stfu.. your stupid podcast and then the tumblr post started all this mess in the 1st place! you guys twisted what he said and fed it to the trolls.. what did you think was going to happen? you brought the trolls and haters out, giving them the ammo to shoot at Ciro, stop tryin to act all innocent and like it's not your fault.

if anyone should apologize, it should be you podcast morons who started this whole damn mess in the 1st place!

[plastroncafe]

I don't have to act like it's not my fault, because it isn't. No acting required on my part.

No amount of backtalk from you, or half-assed attempts at reframing the situation are going to change that simple fact. People can say that he was taken out of context, but he wasn't.

I don't like that people are being mean to Ciro online, he's a good guy from what I can tell. He's passionate about his work, and his work is good work. His product is a good product. I don't want him fired anymore than I wanted Biggs fired for being offensive on his personal Twitter account.

That Ciro says he doesn't feel comfortable talking to fans now is on him.

But by all means, continue to tilt at windmills.

[CyberCubed]

Because of this backlash Ciro is probably not going to do any more podcasts or interact with the TMNT fandom anymore.

Congrats, you guys screwed up again. Now Ciro probably will never interact with online TMNT fans again. This is not what Andrew intended with his podcast.

[kelligrafie]

I don't think Ciro makes the female characters love interests because he thinks that's all they're good for. That's just an assumption that's been fuelled by 'shippers'. April and Karai are teenage girls, they have hormones, they have feelings, in the same way that the turtles have. Having them permenantly single wouldn't be true to life would it? Leo having a crush on Karai doesn't take away the fact that she's smart and talented. And more importantly he respects her as an equal.

If anything, by having Leo fancy her, it demonstrates to young boys that it's a good thing to crush on girls that are independent and strong. Rather than blonde boobied porn stars. And it shows the same to girls watching the show. That you can be attractive because of your personality and own individual giftings, and not just your looks.

As for this Bechdel test, I'd love to know how many of the people (men or women) that actually quote it are writing shows/film that will counteract the over sexuality of women in the media. I bet it isn't many.

Put your money where your mouth is, stop complaining about gratuitous she-stereotypes in TV shows and come up with some dramas that display these positive female role models yourselves if you're truly not happy.

A good role model will speaks to kids/adults alike whether they're female, Jewish, Chinese, hippo, alien etc.

[Electric]

What Ciro said is what I mentioned earlier. If this really was a concern, you should've asked him about it further, rather than leaving him with an underdeveloped response to what he really meant allowing people to get this upset.

He was doing this podcast for the fans, and some of them took a response they didn't like and blew it out of proportion.

[demonsweat]

Wow. This whole idea of there needs to be more female characters to balance out the male characters is honestly ridiculous. You have to remember that the main point of the show centers around the Turtles and Splinter. We don't need females shoehorned in just because there isn't a balance. Like Sweaty said, I'd like to see females as long as they contribute to the plot and are well-written characters who have a purpose to be there. Other than that, I could care less if we have more females on the show. April and Karai are enough for now because their stories are being told this season. Ciro probably said that so as not to give away things that he couldn't say. There may be more females in season three for all we know. Seriously, people are just blowing this out of proportion and really need to get a life.

I'm a female myself, but I enjoy shows aimed at guys. Hell, I used to watch Bravestarr and Dinosaucers with my brother, and those shows were aimed at boys. I didn't sit there and worry about the girls in the show. I just liked the show for what it was. Same goes for TMNT. I relate to Leo sometimes and he's my favorite Turtle, so that's cool for me. April and Karai are fine for now. If more females are added later on down the road, then cool. If not, oh well. Ciro is doing an amazing job, but the people who are bashing him are being totally unreasonable in their assessment of his words. No wonder he left this place.

That was Machias Banshee actually, I was quoting her. :D

I don't think Ciro makes the female characters love interests because he thinks that's all they're good for. That's just an assumption that's been fuelled by 'shippers'. April and Karai are teenage girls, they have hormones, they have feelings, in the same way that the turtles have. Having them permenantly single wouldn't be true to life would it? Leo having a crush on Karai doesn't take away the fact that she's smart and talented. And more importantly he respects her as an equal.

If anything, by having Leo fancy her, it demonstrates to young boys that it's a good thing to crush on girls that are independent and strong. Rather than blonde boobied porn stars. And it shows the same to girls watching the show. That you can be attractive because of your personality and own individual giftings, and not just your looks.

As for this Bechdel test, I'd love to know how many of the people (men or women) that actually quote it are writing shows/film that will counteract the over sexuality of women in the media. I bet it isn't many.

Put your money where your mouth is, stop complaining about gratuitous she-stereotypes in TV shows and come up with some dramas that display these positive female role models yourselves if you're truly not happy.

A good role model will speaks to kids/adults alike whether they're female, Jewish, Chinese, hippo, alien etc.

You mean actually create something myself instead of bitching and moaning and harassing other artists because what they've created doesn't satisfy my own personal agenda??? But that would require actual work. :roll:

[Andrew NDB]

I don't think Ciro meant anything by his answer(s) but that there isn't a lot of real estate to work with on any given episode and that he doesn't want to take much away from either April and Karai/Miwa (who are obviously going to become much more in the forefront to come, from what else he said)... rather than introduce a bunch of female characters just for the sake of introducing female characters.

And he is going to introduce new female characters.

[Electric]

Plastron, you're so quick to hold ciro responsible for his underdeveloped response, yet you won't take responsibility for asking and not following up the question you asked that started all of this. It goes both ways, and in every post you only seem to accept it as the way you perceive it.

"That is sad."

[kelligrafie]

You mean actually create something myself instead of bitching and moaning and harassing other artists because what they've created doesn't satisfy my own personal agenda??? But that would require actual work. :roll:

Got time to moan, got time to rectify the situation. 8)

[SpiderFly]

I don't think Ciro makes the female characters love interests because he thinks that's all they're good for. That's just an assumption that's been fuelled by 'shippers'. April and Karai are teenage girls, they have hormones, they have feelings, in the same way that the turtles have. Having them permenantly single wouldn't be true to life would it? Leo having a crush on Karai doesn't take away the fact that she's smart and talented. And more importantly he respects her as an equal.

If anything, by having Leo fancy her, it demonstrates to young boys that it's a good thing to crush on girls that are independent and strong. Rather than blonde boobied porn stars. And it shows the same to girls watching the show. That you can be attractive because of your personality and own individual giftings, and not just your looks.

As for this Bechdel test, I'd love to know how many of the people (men or women) that actually quote it are writing shows/film that will counteract the over sexuality of women in the media. I bet it isn't many.

Put your money where your mouth is, stop complaining about gratuitous she-stereotypes in TV shows and come up with some dramas that display these positive female role models yourselves if you're truly not happy.

A good role model will speaks to kids/adults alike whether they're female, Jewish, Chinese, hippo, alien etc.

I don't think Ciro's goal was to reinforce females as automatic love interests, but for an artist/writer sometimes your intentions are not the result. And I agree about the Karai/Leo relationship. It does represent those good things on its own. I don't have a problem with Karai's character or the fact that females do have relationships. But, there are only two main female characters . . . who are both love interests. Compare that to the vast amount of male characters (who also are perfectly valid in having relationships) that don't get the love interest tag. The writers want the main boys to have love lives but the show is so starved of female characters that we get a representation of girls as automatic love interests. And the absence of female characters who are not love interests only works to cement that "love interest" is the norm for girls. Absence is key. Empty spaces can speak.

Also, just because we don't make shows ourselves doesn't mean we can't be unhappy with the product someone else makes. Your new computer broke? Make one yourself! Your car doesn't start up right? Make one yourself! The food tastes bad at this restaurant and has bugs in it? Don't complain, open your own restaurant! If you make something, prepare for criticism. I'm not doing it to be mean. I'm doing it to be helpful. Because I wanted better and expected better from Ciro. If you don't speak up about something then it continues under the assumption that it is okay or acceptable.

Do I think Ciro should be fired? No, I like what he's done and I look forward to what he will do. There are many things about this show that I'm going to be critical of. But I hold it to such a high standard because I enjoy it so much. And, just because I enjoy something doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the aspects that it fails at.

Instead of swallowing it and shutting up about how dumbed down Mikey is people actually talked, discussed, and expressed their dissatisfaction. Ciro responded by admitting that mistake and attempting to rectify it. This still leaves me with a little hope for representation in this series. But that hope has taken a serious blow, especially in regards to Irma.

[Andrew NDB]

true but half of the tmnt fanbase is mostly women than boy's.

I don't think that's remotely true. While probably roughly the majority of the 2,800 active members of the Technodrome forums and 90% of the 30, 40-year old folks writing TMNT fanfiction are women... that's neither their target demographic or even a drip in the ocean of the millions of kids (boys, largely) that are what is actually making the show a success.

[plastroncafe]

Plastron, you're so quick to hold ciro responsible for his underdeveloped response, yet you won't take responsibility for asking and not following up the question you asked that started all of this. It goes both ways, and in every post you only seem to accept it as the way you perceive it.

"That is sad."

Actually...I did. In my first post in this thread. The one that I promoted even.

I don't think Ciro is a misogynist. I don't think he views all female characters as solely love interests.

I do think that when you only have two and both have been love interests you willfully leave open the argument that you only believe women to be love interests.

I don't think that Ciro believes all women to be "good" or "bad," but when you only have two women and couch them in those terms...you leave open the argument that you do.

I don't believe that Ciro honestly believes that evil women can be healed by the magical powers of the leading man, but...if/when Karai is turned to the side of the light by Leonardo...he'll be leaving himself open to that criticism as well.

[demonsweat]

I don't think Ciro's goal was to reinforce females as automatic love interests, but for an artist/writer sometimes your intentions are not the result. And I agree about the Karai/Leo relationship. It does represent those good things on its own. I don't have a problem with Karai's character or the fact that females do have relationships. But, there are only two main female characters . . . who are both love interests. Compare that to the vast amount of male characters (who also are perfectly valid in having relationships) that don't get the love interest tag. The writers want the main boys to have love lives but the show is so starved of female characters that we get a representation of girls as automatic love interests. And the absence of female characters who are not love interests only works to cement that "love interest" is the norm for girls. Absence is key. Empty spaces can speak.

Also, just because we don't make shows ourselves doesn't mean we can't be unhappy with the product someone else makes. Your new computer broke? Make one yourself! Your car doesn't start up right? Make one yourself! The food tastes bad at this restaurant and has bugs in it? Don't complain, open your own restaurant! If you make something, prepare for criticism. I'm not doing it to be mean. I'm doing it to be helpful. Because I wanted better and expected better from Ciro. If you don't speak up about something then it continues under the assumption that it is okay or acceptable.

Do I think Ciro should be fired? No, I like what he's done and I look forward to what he will do. There are many things about this show that I'm going to be critical of. But I hold it to such a high standard because I enjoy it so much. And, just because I enjoy something doesn't mean I'm going to ignore the aspects that it fails at.

Instead of swallowing it and shutting up about how dumbed down Mikey is people actually talked, discussed, and expressed their dissatisfaction. Ciro responded by admitting that mistake and attempting to rectify it. This still leaves me with a little hope for representation in this series. But that hope has taken a serious blow, especially in regards to Irma.


That's not really the best analogy. There's nothing "broken" about the show. You represent a small minority of fans who are unhappy with a certain feature. If you go to the manufacturer and say, "hey, I don't like this feature," and they come back with, "Oh, well... we like it. And so do most of our customers," then what purpose does it serve to keep complaining at them about it? At what point do you decide to build the better mousetrap yourself?

Having an opinion is fine. You don't have to agree with everything they do, I mean that's the whole purpose of an open forum after all, is to discuss things. But there's some strong accusations being thrown around here. There's a hard line between "oh I'd like to see more ladies on the show, that would be cool" to "CIRO IS TEH SEXIST!!! BURN HIM!!!" :ohwell:

[Colonel Schrader]

anyways, F*** that lame ass podcast with the BS questions.. here is the cowabunga corner interview: http://cowabungacorner.com/content/ccn-ciro-nieli-interview-2013

[Andrew NDB]

anyways, F*** that lame ass podcast with the BS questions.. here is the cowabunga corner interview: http://cowabungacorner.com/content/ccn-ciro-nieli-interview-2013

lol... really?

[CyberCubed]

anyways, F*** that lame ass podcast with the BS questions.. here is the cowabunga corner interview: http://cowabungacorner.com/content/ccn-ciro-nieli-interview-2013

You know you could have made a new thread about it rather than posting it here.

The more interviews with Ciro Niel the better...but to post it in this one is kinda pointless.

[demonsweat]

anyways, F*** that lame ass podcast with the BS questions.. here is the cowabunga corner interview: http://cowabungacorner.com/content/ccn-ciro-nieli-interview-2013

Dude the interview was great. Sorry to see everyone get hung up a single question, but I thought the rest of it was fantastic.

[SpiderFly]

That's not really the best analogy. There's nothing "broken" about the show. You represent a small minority of fans who are unhappy with a certain feature. If you go to the manufacturer and say, "hey, I don't like this feature," and they come back with, "Oh, well... we like it. And so do most of our customers," then what purpose does it serve to keep complaining at them about it? At what point do you decide to build the better mousetrap yourself?

Having an opinion is fine. You don't have to agree with everything they do, I mean that's the whole purpose of an open forum after all, is to discuss things. But there's some strong accusations being thrown around here. There's a hard line between "oh I'd like to see more ladies on the show, that would be cool" to "CIRO IS TEH SEXIST!!! BURN HIM!!!" :ohwell:

Your right, it may not be the best analogy. But pushing female characters into a broom closet, for any reason, is detrimental. It's a serious thing that's found everywhere. Most people are unaware of the impact representation, or the lack of it, has on our society. That's why I talk about it. Awareness. And we are building better mousetraps. Look at The Last Airbender. Look at Adventure Time. Look at Rebecca sugar's Steven universe. And I like to promote these shows myself. I can't fight every battle but I can lend my voice to those that do.

I don't think Ciro was intending any sexism but it's still kind of what's happening here.

[marcelangelo]

anyways, F*** that lame ass podcast with the BS questions.. here is the cowabunga corner interview: http://cowabungacorner.com/content/ccn-ciro-nieli-interview-2013

thanks man, great interview on cowabunga corner!

[demonsweat]

Your right, it may not be the best analogy. But pushing female characters into a broom closet, for any reason, is detrimental. It's a serious thing that's found everywhere. Most people are unaware of the impact representation, or the lack of it, has on our society. That's why I talk about it. Awareness. And we are building better mousetraps. Look at The Last Airbender. Look at Adventure Time. Look at Rebecca sugar's Steven universe. And I like to promote these shows myself. I can't fight every battle but I can lend my voice to those that do.

I don't think Ciro was intending any sexism but it's still kind of what's happening here.


I gotta disagree with that. It's great that there are shows with strong female characters, there should be. But why should every show fit a specific model? And why only women? Does Adventure Time accurately represent Asian people? Does Steven Universe have characters of different sexual orientations? What's the ratio of cats to dogs in Airbender, will my cat be offended watching with me?

Everyone wants to be represented. But that's not possible to do in every work of art. Over PC-ification stifles creativity. Let the work stand on it's own. I never understood how someone's enjoyment of something could be based solely on whether or not they feel personally, accurately portrayed within it.

If you have a story to tell, then go out and tell it. Don't expect someone else to do it for you. Rebecca Sugar is a good example. She worked hard to get where she is, to do the show she wanted to do. Let that inspire other women to do the same. I never liked this, "we shouldn't have to!" thing. You wanna change the world, sister, then get off your butt and do it. Crying sexism at every turn is not the way towards progress.

[Martin]

I loved the interview and I now realize that a lot of my complaints about the show were actually caused by technical difficulties rather than writing mistakes/lazy animators. Tip off my hat to Ciro and the team. I'm truly saddened to see all the hate he is getting. He really doesn't deserve to be treated this way.

[plastroncafe]

It's interesting to me that asking if two named female characters will have a single conversation about something that isn't a male protagonist is...Over PC-ification.

Do we want to go into how Turtles have historically handled race? Because we can do that. It won't be pretty, but we can totally go there if you want.

I'm letting the work stand on its own, and I'm saying that female representation in the Current TMNT Nick cartoon is lacking.

[BubblyShell22]

Plastron, to your earlier comment about April and Karai just being love interests, that's not it at all. April is more than that. She's the link to the outside world for the Turtles, and this season she's being shown as having life outside of the Turtles. Sure, Don has a crush on her, but she hasn't returned his feelings in kind yet and probably just sees him as a friend for now. Karai was seen as a love interest at first, but that's not who she is now. She hates the Turtles and her key role is that she's Splinter's daughter who wants revenge on Splinter for what she believes to be the murder of her mother. So, there's definitely more to those two than just "the love interests."

I find this whole thing to be blown out of proportion. I agree that there aren't a lot of females, but then again, do we really need a lot of females? No. I'd love to see one or two more females, but I want them to contribute to the story rather than just being shoehorned in as I said before. I think Ciro is getting a lot of undeserved hate, and it's really unfair. He wants to create a good show, and frankly we should be thankful that Ciro took the initiative to create this show for us in the first place.

My main flaw I see in this show is Kirby and how he was mutated so suddenly after we just got him back. I felt it was premature for him to get mutated so soon, but then again, there's a bigger story here. Despite that, I have no ill will toward Ciro for doing it because there's a bigger picture here that will be developed with this storyline, though I do feel badly for April.

[plastroncafe]

I've addressed this earlier. I know that April and Karai are more than mere love interests, but again: when they're the only two representative it's easy to draw that conclusion and to make that argument. The solution to side-stepping that argument is to add more, not argue for less.

I agree that things are being blown out of proportion. It was a simple question that he chose to answer in a problematic way.
Nothing was taken out of context. No follow up should be required. He knew we were recording.

[Electric]

It's interesting to me that asking if two named female characters will have a single conversation about something that isn't a male protagonist is...Over PC-ification.

Do we want to go into how Turtles have historically handled race? Because we can do that. It won't be pretty, but we can totally go there if you want.

I'm letting the work stand on its own, and I'm saying that female representation in the Current TMNT Nick cartoon is lacking.

It's lacking. Yes. Does it need to be fixed? No. Because the show is telling the story of 4 mutant turtles, and unless the writers see fit to have many female characters, there is no need for them.

Females can find relation and enjoyment from male characters and the same with males to female characters. They should not add females just to equal representation. It's not what tmnt is about

Plastron, to your earlier comment about April and Karai just being love interests, that's not it at all. April is more than that. She's the link to the outside world for the Turtles, and this season she's being shown as having life outside of the Turtles. Sure, Don has a crush on her, but she hasn't returned his feelings in kind yet and probably just sees him as a friend for now. Karai was seen as a love interest at first, but that's not who she is now. She hates the Turtles and her key role is that she's Splinter's daughter who wants revenge on Splinter for what she believes to be the murder of her mother. So, there's definitely more to those two than just "the love interests."

I find this whole thing to be blown out of proportion. I agree that there aren't a lot of females, but then again, do we really need a lot of females? No. I'd love to see one or two more females, but I want them to contribute to the story rather than just being shoehorned in as I said before. I think Ciro is getting a lot of undeserved hate, and it's really unfair. He wants to create a good show, and frankly we should be thankful that Ciro took the initiative to create this show for us in the first place

Thank you! This is what I've been saying for the past 5 pages. The two females we have are more than just love interest, Are more than good and evil, and are two very important characters. If they add more females, they need to contribute just as every other character does.

[plastroncafe]

It's lacking. Yes. Does it need to be fixed? No. Because the show is telling the story of 4 mutant turtles, and unless the writers see fit to have many female characters, there is no need for them.


I respectfully disagree.

[Electric]

I've addressed this earlier. I know that April and Karai are more than mere love interests, but again: when they're the only two representative it's easy to draw that conclusion and to make that argument. The solution to side-stepping that argument is to add more, not argue for less.

I agree that things are being blown out of proportion. It was a simple question that he chose to answer in a problematic way.
Nothing was taken out of context. No follow up should be required. He knew we were recording.

He tried to answer it without giving anything away. He didn't answer it problematically. You asked a simple question. He gave a simple answer. If you want to take it any deeper than that, which you have, then you are responsible for asking further into it to get more information from him.

You are really refusing to acknowledge any responsibility in this.

[Electric]

I respectfully disagree.

I respectfully think you are not watching the right show then. The show is about 4 mutant ninja turtles, not 4 mutant turtles that show gender equal representation through the characters they encounter.

[plastroncafe]

He tried to answer it without giving anything away. He didn't answer it problematically. You asked a simple question. He gave a simple answer. If you want to take it any deeper than that, which you have, then you are responsible for asking further into it to get more information from him.

You are really refusing to acknowledge any responsibility in this.

Because I have no responsibility in this. The interview wasn't transcribed and then printed, it was a recorded podcast. He knew we were recording. I asked a question. As an interviewer I am under no responsibility to require him to clarify his positions. I am under no responsibility to take the conversation deeper. I asked the question, he answered the question.

There's no "context" to be taken out, you can listen to the podcast in full.

That you don't see his response is problematic, is not my problem.

I respectfully think you are not watching the right show then. The show is about 4 mutant ninja turtles, not 4 mutant turtles that show gender equal representation through the characters they encounter.

It saddens me that you think these things are mutually exclusive.

[Electric]

Because I have no responsibility in this. The interview wasn't transcribed and then printed, it was a recorded podcast. He knew we were recording. I asked a question. As an interviewer I am under no responsibility to require him to clarify his positions. I am under no responsibility to take the conversation deeper. I asked the question, he answered the question.

There's no "context" to be taken out, you can listen to the podcast in full.

That you don't see his response is problematic, is not my problem.



It saddens me that you think these things are mutually exclusive.

Ciro tried to explain something. People took it wrong. If you have no responsibility for asking, he has none for answering.

And it pisses me off that your making a problem out of nothing. You don't get it. Representation isn't always equal. Girls, blacks, Asians, Hispanics etc. Are all not represented enough in tmnt, and by the way, yes those fall under the same category. You're trying to say that unless one of these groups is equal, it's not okay. But in that case they all would. And that would ruin the show if they add characters just for representation. It is unecessary in a cartoon that has been occurring for decades to make everything equally represented. It is a cartoon for enjoyment. If you cannot enjoy it because one group isn't represented to your liking, you should stop watching it and go complain about any other show that does this exact same thing.

[Colonel Schrader]

http://imgur.com/tCp90.gif

[demonsweat]

It's interesting to me that asking if two named female characters will have a single conversation about something that isn't a male protagonist is...Over PC-ification.

Do we want to go into how Turtles have historically handled race? Because we can do that. It won't be pretty, but we can totally go there if you want.

I'm letting the work stand on its own, and I'm saying that female representation in the Current TMNT Nick cartoon is lacking.


Again, why does every work of fiction have to satisfy a specific group of people? Can't we have some works that do, and some that don't? You only want this thing in there because it means something to you. Seems a bit selfish, IMO. There are plenty of other groups not "represented" in the turtles. What makes your cause so much more important than any other?

You had the creator in front of you. You could have opened up a civil, adult conversation with him about it. Instead you asked a loaded question, he gave a vague answer, the internet lost it's mind (not your fault) but then you come to an open forum, where he and anyone on his staff can read what you say... and you attack his statement without giving him the benefit of a retort. Not only is that grossly unprofessional from an interviewer/interviewee standpoint, but it's cowardly. You said you didn't want to make this about you, but isn't that exactly what you did when you came to this open, public forum to talk about this single, specific point? And the entire rest of the interview (which was awesome) has now become overshadowed by it.

If I was Ciro, I would be totally offended by your behavior. You fangirled out to his face and then came here to attack the things he said. I'm sorry, but I can't respect that. If you really believed in what you're selling, then you should have had the guts to say so to the man's face.

[Electric]

Again, why does every work of fiction have to satisfy a specific group of people? Can't we have some works that do, and some that don't? You only want this thing in there because it means something to you. Seems a bit selfish, IMO. There are plenty of other groups not "represented" in the turtles. What makes your cause so much more important than any other?

You had the creator in front of you. You could have opened up a civil, adult conversation with him about it. Instead you asked a loaded question, he gave a vague answer, the internet lost it's mind (not your fault) but then you come to an open forum, where he and anyone on his staff can read what you say... and you attack his statement without giving him the benefit of a retort. Not only is that grossly unprofessional from an interviewer/interviewee standpoint, but it's cowardly. You said you didn't want to make this about you, but isn't that exactly what you did when you came to this open, public forum to talk about this single, specific point? And the entire rest of the interview (which was awesome) has now become overshadowed by it.

If I was Ciro, I would be totally offended by your behavior. You fangirled out to his face and then came here to attack the things he said. I'm sorry, but I can't respect that. If you really believed in what you're selling, then you should have had the guts to say so to the man's face.

You keep on saying everything perfectly, geez :tgrin:

[DarkLightDragon]

Just can't give a rest, can you guys?

[Colonel Schrader]

Again, why does every work of fiction have to satisfy a specific group of people? Can't we have some works that do, and some that don't? You only want this thing in there because it means something to you. Seems a bit selfish, IMO. There are plenty of other groups not "represented" in the turtles. What makes your cause so much more important than any other?

You had the creator in front of you. You could have opened up a civil, adult conversation with him about it. Instead you asked a loaded question, he gave a vague answer, the internet lost it's mind (not your fault) but then you come to an open forum, where he and anyone on his staff can read what you say... and you attack his statement without giving him the benefit of a retort. Not only is that grossly unprofessional from an interviewer/interviewee standpoint, but it's cowardly. You said you didn't want to make this about you, but isn't that exactly what you did when you came to this open, public forum to talk about this single, specific point? And the entire rest of the interview (which was awesome) has now become overshadowed by it.

If I was Ciro, I would be totally offended by your behavior. You fangirled out to his face and then came here to attack the things he said. I'm sorry, but I can't respect that. If you really believed in what you're selling, then you should have had the guts to say so to the man's face.


http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/standing-ovation.gif


well said!

[plastroncafe]

Ciro tried to explain something. People took it wrong. If you have no responsibility for asking, he has none for answering.

And it pisses me off that your making a problem out of nothing. You don't get it. Representation isn't always equal. Girls, blacks, Asians, Hispanics etc. Are all not represented enough in tmnt, and by the way, yes those fall under the same category. You're trying to say that unless one of these groups is equal, it's not okay. But in that case they all would. And that would ruin the show if they add characters just for representation. It is unecessary in a cartoon that has been occurring for decades to make everything equally represented. It is a cartoon for enjoyment. If you cannot enjoy it because one group isn't represented to your liking, you should stop watching it and go complain about any other show that does this exact same thing.

I'm not the one making the problem. I'm the one who asked a question. A single question. People are seeking to hold Ciro responsible for his words.

Again, why does every work of fiction have to satisfy a specific group of people? Can't we have some works that do, and some that don't? You only want this thing in there because it means something to you. Seems a bit selfish, IMO. There are plenty of other groups not "represented" in the turtles. What makes your cause so much more important than any other?

You had the creator in front of you. You could have opened up a civil, adult conversation with him about it. Instead you asked a loaded question, he gave a vague answer, the internet lost it's mind (not your fault) but then you come to an open forum, where he and anyone on his staff can read what you say... and you attack his statement without giving him the benefit of a retort. Not only is that grossly unprofessional from an interviewer/interviewee standpoint, but it's cowardly. You said you didn't want to make this about you, but isn't that exactly what you did when you came to this open, public forum to talk about this single, specific point? And the entire rest of the interview (which was awesome) has now become overshadowed by it.

If I was Ciro, I would be totally offended by your behavior. You fangirled out to his face and then came here to attack the things he said. I'm sorry, but I can't respect that. If you really believed in what you're selling, then you should have had the guts to say so to the man's face.

There's a whole lot of selfish going around, it seems.

I haven't removed Ciro's ability to access the internet. I haven't banned him from this forum, facebook, or tumblr. He has the exact same wealth of conversation options at his fingertips that I do.

The rest of the interview IS awesome. I'm very proud of my cast mates for making it so, and I'm honored to have had a chance to talk to Ciro.

But...I won't be held responsible for the consequences of his words. They're his words, if he didn't want them to be nitpicked and scrutinized...then he shouldn't have said them.

Again, I don't think that Mr Nieli is a misogyist. I think that the choices he and his staff have made with regard to character design and implementation leaves the show open to attack on several fronts.

[Colonel Schrader]

Booyakasha!!!!

[Electric]

I'm not the one making the problem. I'm the one who asked a question. A single question. People are seeking to hold Ciro responsible for his words.



There's a whole lot of selfish going around, it seems.

I haven't removed Ciro's ability to access the internet. I haven't banned him from this forum, facebook, or tumblr. He has the exact same wealth of conversation options at his fingertips that I do.

The rest of the interview IS awesome. I'm very proud of my cast mates for making it so, and I'm honored to have had a chance to talk to Ciro.

But...I won't be held responsible for the consequences of his words. They're his words, if he didn't want them to be nitpicked and scrutinized...then he shouldn't have said them.

Again, I don't think that Mr Nieli is a misogyist. I think that the choices he and his staff have made with regard to character design and implementation leaves the show open to attack on several fronts.


Of which you are partaking in the attacking

[plastroncafe]

Criticism isn't the same as Attacking.

[demonsweat]

I'm not the one making the problem. I'm the one who asked a question. A single question. People are seeking to hold Ciro responsible for his words.



There's a whole lot of selfish going around, it seems.

I haven't removed Ciro's ability to access the internet. I haven't banned him from this forum, facebook, or tumblr. He has the exact same wealth of conversation options at his fingertips that I do.

The rest of the interview IS awesome. I'm very proud of my cast mates for making it so, and I'm honored to have had a chance to talk to Ciro.

But...I won't be held responsible for the consequences of his words. They're his words, if he didn't want them to be nitpicked and scrutinized...then he shouldn't have said them.

Again, I don't think that Mr Nieli is a misogyist. I think that the choices he and his staff have made with regard to character design and implementation leaves the show open to attack on several fronts.


I responded to this, but I put it in another forum. I assume since you have access to the internet, you'll find it. See ya there! :P

[Matches Malone]

I gotta disagree with that. It's great that there are shows with strong female characters, there should be. But why should every show fit a specific model? And why only women? Does Adventure Time accurately represent Asian people? Does Steven Universe have characters of different sexual orientations? What's the ratio of cats to dogs in Airbender, will my cat be offended watching with me?

Everyone wants to be represented. But that's not possible to do in every work of art. Over PC-ification stifles creativity. Let the work stand on it's own. I never understood how someone's enjoyment of something could be based solely on whether or not they feel personally, accurately portrayed within it.

If you have a story to tell, then go out and tell it. Don't expect someone else to do it for you. Rebecca Sugar is a good example. She worked hard to get where she is, to do the show she wanted to do. Let that inspire other women to do the same. I never liked this, "we shouldn't have to!" thing. You wanna change the world, sister, then get off your butt and do it. Crying sexism at every turn is not the way towards progress.

I would actually argue the opposite. To say you avoid writing women because it's more difficult (paraphrasing, obviously), it seems like you are limiting yourself. The typical female characters we see are so limited. Where's the creativity? Unfortunately it's because the flipside is that what's not PC is stifling it. "I can't think of any good ways to have a female character except, oh! let's give Mikey a girlfriend" In fact, the problem with racism, sexism, homophobia and all prejudices is they are all essentially different cases of severe tunnel vision. Why would we make this character "x race/gender/etc" if they aren't "x stereotype" is the kind of thinking presented here. Seeing characters who don't fit into a stereotype is more interesting and creative because that character could be anything. Saying female characters need a reason to be introduced to the show is what's limiting, and there's no need for it. People never say a male character needs a reason to be introduced. It doesn't feel shoehorned that a majority of the male characters we see didn't need to be male. That's the heart of the inequality here. Not the number of female characters, but how they are considered differently than male ones. The number is simply a symptom of that.

As to the idea that not every show can perfectly represent everyone and every group. You're right, it wouldn't be natural or even possible. But here's the thing... As opposed to maybe other social groups, when it comes to women, they're kind of... everywhere. To say having more than 2 female characters without a "reason" would be shoehorning, that'd be like walking into a restaurant and seeing more than 2 women in a room full of men and thinking, "Whoa, that's weird.... I wonder what's going on?" This is New York City not an alien planet. A female foot soldier wouldn't be uncreative. A female mutant wouldn't be uncreative. It would be the opposite because we haven't seen that at all.

Girls can relate to male characters, obviously and the reverse is true. Yes, traits like courage, cowardice, humor are all universal. However, being a "girl" is still also a part of their identity. So if a girl's favorite character is Donatello, you could ask "why would you pick Donnie? you obviously chose wrong." But you could also ask, "does this character make you feel like being a girl is ok?" And sadly the answer is no. We can debate how important it is, but I'm just trying to clarify this point. Maybe she feels good that Donnie is smart and she wants to be smart too. Positive, right? Nothing wrong with wanting to give girls a little more opportunity to feel like she wants to be a girl too. Boys have more than enough characters that can make them feel like it's ok (if not better) to be a boy.

There are many sincere folks on here that want to understand, so please accept that there's nothing wrong with wanting better. You can enjoy a show and wish it were better. As for how people behave, I can't speak for that.

[plastroncafe]

Nah, I'm all set here, but I appreciate the invitation.
Besides, chances are good there are already people on that site making the same case that I am, and doing a great deal of a better job than I ever could.

Case in point: Matches Malone.
Though...I guess that's not really a case in point, seeing as they're HERE, and not...in this nebulous elsewhere.

[CyberCubed]

Just can't give a rest, can you guys?

It's feminism. Some people can't give it a rest because they have this obsession with female rights in a children's cartoon.

I don't see anyone complaining that Baxter is the only black guy in the Nick show. We need more black people like Bebop!

[demonsweat]

Nah, I'm all set here, but I appreciate the invitation.
Besides, chances are good there are already people on that site making the same case that I am, and doing a great deal of a better job than I ever could.

Case in point: Matches Malone.
Though...I guess that's not really a case in point, seeing as they're HERE, and not...in this nebulous elsewhere.


http://i.imgur.com/HVwVoIu.jpg

[kelligrafie]

It's feminism. Some people can't give it a rest because they have this obsession with female rights in a children's cartoon.

I don't see anyone complaining that Baxter is the only black guy in the Nick show. We need more black people like Bebop!
We have Shredder, Splinter and Karai, who are Japanese, Baxter who is African American, Xever/Fishface who I think is Brazilian...

If anyone's under-represented it's Europeans.

Let's have a German exchange student, who befriends April and gets embroiled in a love square with her, Casey and Donnie.

[MiBs]

Wow, this thread just exploded while I was sleeping .... and at work. I'm reluctant to go into the whole gender debate, because it always the same thing over and over again. But I will say this though

I'm a woman and I was a huge fan of the OT, when I was a kid. The only kids I knew, that where also interested in the Turtles were boys - I'm happy that's not like that anymore, but back then I thought that it was a show for boys, and "cool girls".

I identified myself the most with Raph, and he was my favorite character - eventhough he was a boy. I liked April, but she wasn't the reason I loved the show. She's an important part of the story, and I thinks she is way more explored and developed as a character on the Nick show, than she was in the OT.

I find it very difficult to understand why some see the lack of female characters as a big deal. Do we need another human girl (Irma) - what would she be good for. Yes she could be Aprils friend, and they could have some interactions, but in the big picture - what would she tribute with. (I thought Irma was very annoying on the OT, so I'm a bit biased)

I would much rather that they develope Karai and April and really work on the writing instead of just throwing in female characters to make a gender balance.

And on a very different note - seriously, pick your battles. I don't mind a little sister solidarity. But there's far more important issues - trafficking, equal pay for equal work, womens rights, the balance between male and female experts in media, the sexualisation of public space, gender balance in decision-making positions....and I could go on...... "The Turtles" is way down on that list

[plastroncafe]

http://i.imgur.com/HVwVoIu.jpg

Not really no, but...it was a nice attempt just the same.

Cyber, you're awesome.
Actually going out of your way to say that an obsession with female rights is somehow a bad thing. It's adorable.