Black April

[neatoman]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M1fwrc4ah-U/UoggFlo9TaI/AAAAAAAALb0/34pBGb7g-Q0/s1600/Nice+Tan+April.jpg

So wanna talk about it?

See every time I bring up the depictions of April O'Neil as a black woman on the internet someone always pops up snarling, insisting that she never has been depicted as a black woman outside of fanfics and when I give concrete evidence like this they make up some excuse like non-canonicity or that's it's just a colorised version and does not count or something else like.

Now I know these arguments usually come from rather unpleasant people and I'm not one of the people who claim she was always intended to be black (the details behind her creation are fuzzy) and thus she should always be depicted as black.
But I still find it a bit confusing why it would ever really be a big enough deal to either rage against or demand everything else to correct itself after it.

April O'Neil is a fictional character and nothing about her suggests that she'd have to belong to one racial group or another so what's the problem?

[OA]

I seem to recall that when Eastman and laird were first coming up with April, they toyed with the idea of making her black...either that, or they named her after a black friend(?)...or something else. I can't place it exactly, but I do know for certain that there is something in the past that connects April with a black woman, just for the life of me can't remember the details right now

[TurtleTitan97]

I seem to recall that when Eastman and laird were first coming up with April, they toyed with the idea of making her black...either that, or they named her after a black friend(?)...or something else. I can't place it exactly, but I do know for certain that there is something in the past that connects April with a black woman, just for the life of me can't remember the details right now

I may be wrong, but I think Mirage April was based on the girlfriend Eastman had at the time. Or something like that.

[OA]

could be...but I just can't shake this thought about a black friend, or classmate, or something when they were first thinking her up....

[IndigoErth]

But I still find it a bit confusing why it would ever really be a big enough deal to either rage against or demand everything else to correct itself after it.

April O'Neil is a fictional character and nothing about her suggests that she'd have to belong to one racial group or another so what's the problem?
I dunno, "ruined childhoods" and threatened loss of fanboy lust if the April they know and love lust for is "changed" and no longer the "same person"?

Harmless imo. Hell, Baxter has been both black and white, right? Though I suppose few people are too emotionally attached to him to really care.

[CyberCubed]

The world isn't ready for a black April.

[TurtleTitan97]

The world isn't ready for a black April.

And you know this how, exactly? If it were pulled off well, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

[CyberCubed]

After suffering through a white Eric Sachs Shredder, you really think we can handle a black April?

[OA]

Alright, found the reference I was thinking of...

In Eastman's "Artobiography" he says that April was concepted in Pete's notes as an Asian character and then named after a black woman that Kevin once knew. So I think that's about as black as she's going to officially get.

The idea of an Asian April, however, seems like it would've fit nicely with the whole Japan/martial arts angle. Though thinking about it, that may have been exactly why they opted not to go that route - perhaps it'd make the book even more "asianish" then they were looking for.

[TurtleTitan97]

After suffering through a white Eric Sachs Shredder, you really think we can handle a black April?

If we can handle Stockman being a white guy in the OT, we can deal with April returning back to being an African American.

[Luigiperps]

After suffering through a white Eric Sachs Shredder, you really think we can handle a black April?

Shredder being asian is part of his background, April's race isn't very important to her character.

[IndigoErth]

Designed to be Asian, named after a black woman, turned into a white woman... geeze, April, who will you be next. lol

Did the concept of Karai exist around the same time? Maybe someone thought it would have been "overkill" on supporting cast female characters if they're both Asian. :roll: Token white girl semi-main character for majority white America? Hm.

[Donatello19]

What is that comic in the OP actually from, anyway?

[TurtleTitan97]

What is that comic in the OP actually from, anyway?

TMNT Vol. 1 issue #32

[Candy Kappa]

As far as I know, that issue is the only one where April is colored dark skinned, and she is a reporter in the issue.

Edit. I might be completely wrong on the reporter part, as I've got a complete iron blanket on the story.

[oldmanwinters]

I think Eastman & Laird's memories of April's original ethnicity contradict each other. Eastman tried to work in elements of his then-girlfriend while Laird simply envisioned her as Irish Anglo heritage. Her appearance in issues 2-3 seems to support Laird's view while her makeover in issue 4 and following started to favor Eastman's vision. Issue #32 (http://www.miragelicensing.com/comics/mirage/volume01/32/32.html) (from which the above scan was taken) was an Eastman/Bode collaboration, but it's also possible the full-color reprint made her skin tone appear a bit darker than intended; her complexion looks considerably lighter on the cover to the original B&W printing.

Ultimately, it was David Wise modeling the animated version after Fujiko Mine from Lupin III which has probably cemented her pop-culture icon status more than anything else.

[ssjup81]

After suffering through a white Eric Sachs Shredder, you really think we can handle a black April?TBH, Mirage April always came across as mixed to me with the way her hair was.

[Xav]

As far as I know, that issue is the only one where April is colored dark skinned, and she is a reporter in the issue.

Edit. I might be completely wrong on the reporter part, as I've got a complete iron blanket on the story.April was also colored with dark skin in Tales of the TMNT #7, and she was a reporter in issue 33.

[Technogeek29]

Personally have no problems with it. In the grand scheme of things it changes only as much as you let it.

[mexichrist83]

Not sure why April's race is even a discussion topic. What does it matter what race she is? Sure it is confusing seeing her different looks in some of the comics but in the end does it really matter?

The only human character's in the TMNT universe whose race matters should be Shredder and Splinter (if Splinter was originally in human form and mutated into a rat, of course). Their Japanese roots play heavily in their backstories with their rivalries and especially with Shredder's connections to the Foot Clan etc.

[Warhorse]

While I never gave April a thought, I always wanted Casey to be portrayed by a Black man.

[Redeemer]

Alright, found the reference I was thinking of...

In Eastman's "Artobiography" he says that April was concepted in Pete's notes as an Asian character and then named after a black woman that Kevin once knew. So I think that's about as black as she's going to officially get.

The idea of an Asian April, however, seems like it would've fit nicely with the whole Japan/martial arts angle. Though thinking about it, that may have been exactly why they opted not to go that route - perhaps it'd make the book even more "asianish" then they were looking for.

?????Where is this source???? I swore April was suppose to be hispanic, I thought Eastman and Laird noted it in the Ultimate collection notes??

[turtlefanforever]

While I never gave April a thought, I always wanted Casey to be portrayed by a Black man.

you basically just want Shaft?

[OA]

?????Where is this source???? I swore April was suppose to be hispanic, I thought Eastman and Laird noted it in the Ultimate collection notes??

Eastman's "Artobiography"

[pennydreadful]

TBH, Mirage April always came across as mixed to me with the way her hair was.

Ditto; I always read Mirage April as being black or mixed.

I have zero problems with a black April, or a Latino April, or an Asian April - it'd just be another evolution of the character and could be really positive. Either way - I honestly can't understand why people would get their knickers in a twist over it.

[Leo656]

Obviously it's not set in stone or anything, but "O'Neil" is a VERY Gaelic, Irish-Protestant name with a long history (although it later spread into some Scottish families as well). At the very least, it's about 99% most likely that anyone with that last name would be of Celtic descent. Obviously, names get legally changed, passed around through marriage, things like that. But statistically speaking, a non-Caucasian with that name would be super-rare.

Stranger things have happened. I worked for a white Irish guy whose last name was Juarez. Still no idea how THAT happened.

[ssjup81]

Obviously it's not set in stone or anything, but "O'Neil" is a VERY Gaelic, Irish-Protestant name with a long history (although it later spread into some Scottish families as well). At the very least, it's about 99% most likely that anyone with that last name would be of Celtic descent. Obviously, names get legally changed, passed around through marriage, things like that. But statistically speaking, a non-Caucasian with that name would be super-rare.

Stranger things have happened. I worked for a white Irish guy whose last name was Juarez. Still no idea how THAT happened.My family name is McBride and I'm "non-Caucasian". I also have a friend with the middle name O'Neil because it's his mother's maiden name who is also "non-Caucasian". In the US it's possible, especially given its history.

[Leo656]

Oh it happens, it's just unlikely.

[psychturtle]

I'd be down for African American April. I've been saying for years that Captain America could be African American and that would add so much more depth of emotionality to the character (e.g. A villian saying "The star on his chest once represented the demise of people like you" in trying to get into his head). Sorry about the tangent haha.

[JoeGro]

The only skin color I'm concerned about when it comes to the TMNT is green! The skin tone of any other character changing wouldn't phase me at all, though I will admit I have a thing for redheads, so the original animated April will always be my crush.

[pennydreadful]

Obviously it's not set in stone or anything, but "O'Neil" is a VERY Gaelic, Irish-Protestant name with a long history (although it later spread into some Scottish families as well). At the very least, it's about 99% most likely that anyone with that last name would be of Celtic descent. Obviously, names get legally changed, passed around through marriage, things like that. But statistically speaking, a non-Caucasian with that name would be super-rare.

Stranger things have happened. I worked for a white Irish guy whose last name was Juarez. Still no idea how THAT happened.

Yeah, I've got an Irish surname and the vast majority of my ancestry is Irish... but I actually look more Italian (due to my great-grandmother on my mother's side having a fling). Go figure. I have to work so hard at staying pale; if I get the slightest bit of sun, I go olive in an instant! :tgrumble:

[Cryomancer]

Everyone knows her ethnicity is "paper and ink".

[ssjup81]

Oh it happens, it's just unlikely.For African-Americans I don't feel that it is, actually because of the history of the US.

[Technogeek29]

Everyone knows her ethnicity is "paper and ink".

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/4700777/ba-dum-tss-o.gif

[ssjup81]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/4700777/ba-dum-tss-o.gif

Good one. :lol:

[Prowler]

Stranger things have happened. I worked for a white Irish guy whose last name was Juarez. Still no idea how THAT happened.
His father was either Spanish or from a Spanish-speaking country, I'm guessing? Sounds like a logical explanation to me.

[Shark_Blade]

OT April will always be my preferred basis; so no.

[Whatswiththeheadbands?]

I wouldn't actually mind an incarnation where April is Black. her race isn't important to her character, so if they do change her race, then it's not like an entire part of her character is altered.

[Bry]

April could very easily be of mixed race/heritage and retain the Irish last name. In fact, I really prefer that idea, and it does seem like it might have been possible from the earlier Mirage comics. But the '87 series really cementer her appearance-wise as a white redhead, so... here we are.

Weird how that show also white-washed Baxter Stockman... Though thankfully that was set right by the 2003 cartoon and the "correct" version of Baxter seems to have stuck.

[Lou 500]

I personally like her being Irish American.

[Shellrider13]

I would do her black, asian ,white. Just saying.

[Derrico13]

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Derrico13/TMNT/coffy3.jpg

[Casey]

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/Derrico13/TMNT/coffy3.jpg

That's pretty rad.

[Casey]

TBH, Mirage April always came across as mixed to me with the way her hair was.

Me too. Peter says no though. I just don't get how could someone to look at those pages and covers and not see a biracial woman. She is definitely not Anglo.

[plastroncafe]

This comes up on Tumblr every now and again, with people cherry picking art from various covers and pages depending on which side of the argument they happen to lean towards.

How April looks really depends on who's drawing her, and in the case of the panels that started this thread: who's coloring her.

Personally? I'd love to see a brunette April of any ethnicity.
But we've about as much chance of that happening as we do of Shadow Jones making an appearance on the Nick Toon.

[Prowler]

This comes up on Tumblr every now and again, with people cherry picking art from various covers and pages depending on which side of the argument they happen to lean towards.

How April looks really depends on who's drawing her, and in the case of the panels that started this thread: who's coloring her.

Personally? I'd love to see a brunette April of any ethnicity.
But we've about as much chance of that happening as we do of Shadow Jones making an appearance on the Nick Toon.
I'd rather she remained a redhead since that's what she's been in most incarnations. I'd find it weird for her to have any other hair color.

[The-Shredder]

Me too. Peter says no though. I just don't get how could someone to look at those pages and covers and not see a biracial woman. She is definitely not Anglo.

To be honest, I've never thoroughly read the comics before, but based on this cover, wouldn't you assume that she looks that way because curly hair was a trend back then? http://www.miragelicensing.com/comics/mirage/volume01/11/11.html

[CyberCubed]

I like April being a red-head. Remember April was actually always seen as brunette until the 4kids cartoon gave her the definitive hair color. That's why both IDW and Nick kept the red/orange hair afterward.

[BabyTurtles]

all this talk about a black April makes me wanna draw one for fun ^_^

[NYShell]

although we've seen race changes at times and the turtle franchise I still feel more comfortable with April staying as a white woman mostly because she's a character that the majority of people care about as opposed to other characters that have less impact

[Bry]

I would do her black, asian ,white. Just saying.

... :teek:

all this talk about a black April makes me wanna draw one for fun ^_^

DO IT! :tgrin:

although we've seen race changes at times and the turtle franchise I still feel more comfortable with April staying as a white woman mostly because she's a character that the majority of people care about as opposed to other characters that have less impact

Uh... I'm going to assume you didn't mean this how it sounds. Because the idea that you can't have a pre-existing character be a person of colour if they're "major" and cared about? That doesn't sound great.

April being a person of colour changes absolutely nothing about who she is as a character. I can't imagine what problem there could be with making her a POC, or what valid reason there is for keeping her white, necessarily.

[BabyTurtles]

DO IT! :tgrin:


Yes sir!! :x

[ssjup81]

although we've seen race changes at times and the turtle franchise I still feel more comfortable with April staying as a white woman mostly because she's a character that the majority of people care about as opposed to other characters that have less impactAs a person of color, I can't help but feel slightly offended, but I'm sure the offense caused was unintentional.

[Xav]

I can't imagine what problem there could be with making her a POC, or what valid reason there is for keeping her white, necessarily.I can't see what valid reason there is to make her non-white.

[oldmanwinters]

Personally? I'd love to see a brunette April of any ethnicity.

Ironically, David Wise actually assumed toon April was a brunette (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=926159&postcount=12). I guess the cel coloring varied enough to give people the impression she was a redhead.

[Casey]

To be honest, I've never thoroughly read the comics before, but based on this cover, wouldn't you assume that she looks that way because curly hair was a trend back then? http://www.miragelicensing.com/comics/mirage/volume01/11/11.html

I have definitely thought about that. Gina Davis-type look and all, but it's the skin tone, the lips as well as other drawings of those first issues of Mirage.

[Netkeeper]

Black April, redhead April...

http://i.imgur.com/3AxwlnP.gif

[pennydreadful]

I'd rather she remained a redhead since that's what she's been in most incarnations. I'd find it weird for her to have any other hair color.

Well she could just as easily be a black woman who dyes her hair red; hey, it worked for Rihanna!

all this talk about a black April makes me wanna draw one for fun ^_^

Would love to see your art if you do, BabyTurtles! :)

although we've seen race changes at times and the turtle franchise I still feel more comfortable with April staying as a white woman mostly because she's a character that the majority of people care about as opposed to other characters that have less impact

That... came out a little awkward-sounding. :ohwell:

I can't see what valid reason there is to make her non-white.

Why would it matter if she wasn't white though? What's wrong with an April of color? I don't mean that to sound confrontational so please don't think I'm attacking you, I'm just saying - there'll still be all the other versions where April's white. I'm more likely to pick something up if it has non-white or non-het characters - there might be plenty of girls and women out there who would love the idea of a black April.

[BabyTurtles]

Okay I finished XD Black April O'Neil!

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt236/Renkel76/58fe2d2f-f29f-494f-a8b5-8caf0a692a0b_zpsb4ca600b.jpg

[Technogeek29]

Okay I finished XD Black April O'Neil!

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt236/Renkel76/58fe2d2f-f29f-494f-a8b5-8caf0a692a0b_zpsb4ca600b.jpg

Nice.


P.S. Wasn't April orginally going to be blonde in the Early Nick Concept art?

[pennydreadful]

Okay I finished XD Black April O'Neil!

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt236/Renkel76/58fe2d2f-f29f-494f-a8b5-8caf0a692a0b_zpsb4ca600b.jpg

http://media.tumblr.com/0f1be0eabc7677aebce34f07437903a2/tumblr_inline_mso2j3JqFP1qz4rgp.gif

Seriously, frabjous work BabyTurtles. I love Black April. :tlove:

[BabyTurtles]

http://media.tumblr.com/0f1be0eabc7677aebce34f07437903a2/tumblr_inline_mso2j3JqFP1qz4rgp.gif

Seriously, frabjous work BabyTurtles. I love Black April. :tlove:

lol thanx~ she was fun to draw~ ^__^

[neatoman]

Okay I finished XD Black April O'Neil!

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt236/Renkel76/58fe2d2f-f29f-494f-a8b5-8caf0a692a0b_zpsb4ca600b.jpg

Really nice.

[Candy Kappa]

That's a pretty good drawing BabyTurtles.


Nice.


P.S. Wasn't April orginally going to be blonde in the Early Nick Concept art?

Yeah, she is blonde in some of the concept drawings.

[JamieH]

Black, white, asian, indian, middle eastern, American indian, etc., doesn't matter. April would be the same character regardless of ethnicity. Of course there is going to be those that voice how much their twats are tangled up because of a change or even perceived change.

People lost their **** when Marvel said they were doing a black Spider-Man. And that was just an alternate reality character. Of course a lot of people paid that no mind, all they heard was black and their whole world came undone.

And what the hell is up with all the PC ********? Some of it doesn't even make ****ing sense.

[Bry]

I can't see what valid reason there is to make her non-white.

Because white should not be the "default setting" for fictional characters. We live in a diverse world, and our fiction should represent that.

It's the same argument whenever a traditionally-white character is "reimagined" as a person of colour. People asked the same question when they cast Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm in the new Fantastic Four movie, and when Idris Elba was cast as Heimdall in Thor, and when Michael Clarke Duncan was cast as the Kingpin in Daredevil, and on and on. The fact is that for people of colour -- and especially women of colour, I should point out -- there aren't anywhere near as many established, strong, integral characters or roles available or given a spotlight as there are for white characters. And for the sake of representation, I think it's very worthwhile to re-evaluate whether or not certain characters have to, or even should, be white. In the case of April, I can't think of a single reason beyond her last name. But it's an easy matter of making her mixed-race or adopted.

Okay I finished XD Black April O'Neil!

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt236/Renkel76/58fe2d2f-f29f-494f-a8b5-8caf0a692a0b_zpsb4ca600b.jpg

Whoa, that is awesome!! I'm impressed how quickly you made that! :tgrin:

And honestly, I think I like this look better than the current design from the Nick show. I'd love to see this version of April in animated form.

[FoxZerro]

Personally? I'd love to see a brunette April of any ethnicity.
But we've about as much chance of that happening as we do of Shadow Jones making an appearance on the Nick Toon.

I honestly think that we have a pretty decent chance of seeing Shadown show up on the Nickelodeon show. I could see her as Casey's younger sister, or if they are really making time travel a part of the proceedings as a member of the team in some future setting.

Man that would be awesome love me some Shadow Jones

[Lou 500]

Black April, redhead April...

http://i.imgur.com/3AxwlnP.gif

Patchwork April?

[plastroncafe]

I honestly think that we have a pretty decent chance of seeing Shadown show up on the Nickelodeon show. I could see her as Casey's younger sister, or if they are really making time travel a part of the proceedings as a member of the team in some future setting.

Man that would be awesome love me some Shadow Jones

Yeah...probably, but...I'd rather her be Casey's Daughter, not her kid sister.

Black, white, asian, indian, middle eastern, American indian, etc., doesn't matter. April would be the same character regardless of ethnicity. Of course there is going to be those that voice how much their twats are tangled up because of a change or even perceived change.

People lost their **** when Marvel said they were doing a black Spider-Man. And that was just an alternate reality character. Of course a lot of people paid that no mind, all they heard was black and their whole world came undone.

And what the hell is up with all the PC ********? Some of it doesn't even make ****ing sense.

If there's one thing there isn't enough of, it's straight, white, male representation in media.

[ZariusTwo]

Okay I finished XD Black April O'Neil!

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt236/Renkel76/58fe2d2f-f29f-494f-a8b5-8caf0a692a0b_zpsb4ca600b.jpg

To quote every 70s black babe's name ever..

...Foxy:D

[BabyTurtles]

Whoa, that is awesome!! I'm impressed how quickly you made that! :tgrin:

And honestly, I think I like this look better than the current design from the Nick show. I'd love to see this version of April in animated form.

thanx!
I draw super fast XD it would have been done faster but my sister wanted to play outside with me first.

[TurtleTitan97]

Okay I finished XD Black April O'Neil!

http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt236/Renkel76/58fe2d2f-f29f-494f-a8b5-8caf0a692a0b_zpsb4ca600b.jpg

Excellent job BT. :tcool:

[Cipher]

April's indistinct ethnicity is something that pops up a lot throughout early Mirage (really, anything pre-"City at War").

It's never bothered me, and it would have been fine whatever direction they decided to take her in. Just seems like a case of having different ideas for her character design and not nailing down a particular profile until later, which happens.

I don't see the need for April to be a white redhead in all future incarnations though. She's never been a character for whom race matters, and I don't think there's a particular appearance they need to lock her down to. To be honest, I hope we do get a non-white April down the road. Angel has been a big bonus for IDW's series, and has actually been a more engaging human friend than April over there.

[CyberCubed]

April needs to be white. It's like having a black Lois Lane or Barbara Gordon.

[Cipher]

April needs to be white. It's like having a black Lois Lane
Oh?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XZ-thau2xnE/R1SGwmPELaI/AAAAAAAAAbE/sqLr36YoUok/s1600-R/LL106p1.jpg

Look, I know it may be controversial to say, but:

I don't care if Superman dates a black woman.

[CyberCubed]

That was an actual comic? Lol, reminds me when black and white people kissing on television was controversial like gay people kissing on TV now.

[TurtleTitan97]

April needs to be white.

:trolleye:

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. You act as if April was always white. Well she wasn't:

http://media.tumblr.com/ccffd6b46235b568028ebe8dbef6af02/tumblr_inline_mwhyq018gl1qmks9t.jpg

Besides, it doesn't matter what race she is. As long as she acts like April, she's still April.

[Leo656]

Cipher: F*ckin' beat me to it. Bastard. :lol:

Ahhh, 1970s comic books. Pure race-relations gold. Almost as great as when DC went out of their way to create Milestone Comics and absolutely zero people of any color gave a sh*t. :lol:

[BabyTurtles]

April needs to be white. It's like having a black Lois Lane or Barbara Gordon.

I don't see why they need to be white? :ohwell:

Iris West is like the Lois Lane for The Flash

and she was turned Black in the new Tv series.

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/comicsalliance.com/files/2014/02/Candice-Patton-Iris-West.jpg

Barbara's red hair will be missed....but if that's the only reason people like her...then there's a problem already XD

[Cipher]

Ahhh, 1970s comic books. Pure race-relations gold. Almost as great as when DC went out of their way to create Milestone Comics and absolutely zero people of any color gave a sh*t. :lol:
The weird thing is that's actually a much more level-headed and less exploitative issue than that opening would imply.

Still a little trite and cringe-worthy, but I can give it credit for being a vaguely positive piece from a bunch of white guys in the '70s. They tried.

[Leo656]

Yeah, between that and Speedy stickin' needles in his arm, they were really on a roll back then. :lol:

[Cipher]

Yeah, between that and Speedy stickin' needles in his arm, they were really on a roll back then. :lol:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_rVlYmYabaos/TG2J1gkpJ8I/AAAAAAAACMk/ib4pV6Dyfpc/s1600/40.jpg

DC Comics Aren't Just For Kids!™

Maybe you shouldn't have named your sidekick Speedy, guy. Would anyone have been surprised if his young ward Eight-Ball started doping up?

[Leo656]

You know what would have been just perfect irony? If when DC had Prometheus rip his arm off in "Cry For Justice", it was the left arm, aka "The arm he keeps his drugs in". :lol:

Ahh, Roy Harper. We all hate you.

[Cipher]

Ahh, Roy Harper. We all hate you.
Sure went on to f*ck Starfire, though. Everybody loved that.

Welcome to the black April thread, folks!

[Leo656]

Didn't he take sloppies after Jason Todd? Guy clearly has zero standards. Although, it IS New 52 Starfire/Slutfire, so I kinda guess it'd be hard to say No...


Welcome to the black April thread, folks!

This thread was doomed from conception.

[Cipher]

Didn't he take sloppies after Jason Todd? Guy clearly has zero standards. Although, it IS New 52 Starfire/Slutfire, so I kinda guess it'd be hard to say No...
No, she and Todd never did it. He was just hamming it up, apparently.

TBH, I think Jason's in the closet. Nothing can convince me otherwise.

[CyberCubed]

Was interracial marriage accepted back then? I'm pretty sure it wasn't more common till the 80's.

[Leo656]

Cipher: Ah. Well, okay then. Good to see even Slutfire has enough sense not to sleep with Jason F'n Todd.

And that theory o'yorn sure would explain a lot of Jason's latent rage issues.

Cubed: Most likely not. Just a high-profile example of 70s comics trying to be "hip" and "cutting edge" while clumsily shining a spotlight on social issues.

[BabyTurtles]

well if people are so iffy on the black April thing

How about if Angel was made black and she be the first to meet the turtles in one incarnation in the far future, I think that'd be cool.

[Candy Kappa]

April needs to be white. It's like having a black Lois Lane or Barbara Gordon.

April could still be a redhead and be black. There's plenty of non-soulless pasty gingers that have reddish/auburn hair. And we have some amazing hair dye products out there.

[Bry]

April needs to be white. It's like having a black Lois Lane or Barbara Gordon.

Why? And why can't Lois Lane or Barbara Gordon be black? I seriously want to hear your reasoning - and something more substantial than "because they weren't created that way," please.

[CyberCubed]

Because there's no point? She's a white character why should her race be changed? Most race changes outside of Nick Fury have always rubbed me the wrong way.

[Bry]

IMO, adding more diversity and representation to a genre (and media as a whole) that doesn't have enough of it is a good reason in itself.

But to turn it around on you: what's the "point" in keeping them white, exactly?

[CyberCubed]

What's the point in keeping characters the race they were introduced as? Is this a trick question?

You sound like a token-er.

[plastroncafe]

There's nothing in April's Backstory that requires her to be of any ethnicity.

[Bry]

A "token-er"? Yeesh. :trolleye:

So... do you not have a valid reason why those characters have to stay white? Any reason at all why their whiteness is an essential part of who they are, aside from them traditionally being portrayed that way? Because that is a really weak argument.

It's a legitimate issue, whether or not you see it that way. I've already explained why, but it's worth adding - many of the most popular media/genre characters (like Lois Lane and Barbara Gordon, your examples) were developed in a time when seeing people of colour in strong, important central roles was incredibly rare, and even when they were, their portrayals often included troubling stereotypes. Backward times, basically. And without challenging the racial identity of these characters and those portrayals -- and yes, sometimes changing them -- we're reinforcing an outdated status quo.

[zodiac brave]

April needs to be white. It's like having a black Lois Lane or Barbara Gordon.

smh...

KERRI WASHINGTON FOR APRIL O'NEIL IN TMNT 2!!!!

:D

[Leo656]

Frankly, I think it's generally best that they just come up with entirely new characters rather than "tweak" existing ones. If for no other reason than, someone always WILL complain and it's just safer. It always seems like a cheap attention-grab when they take a well-known character and do something they know for a fact will be controversial.

And it's not like they haven't tried, like how I referenced Milestone comics earlier (Which DC didn't actually create, they were simply licensing partners, although DC eventually did absorb pretty much the entire line later on). That was an honest, earnest attempt at creating a metric ton of black super-hero characters. In fact, there weren't a whole ton of Caucasians walking around Dakota City at all, if memory serves. That raises the question, why didn't the line survive? The reason most-often given is "Lack of consumer interest". So, why didn't anyone want to read the books, which were written, created and drawn by black creators, marketed to a black audience, and featuring an almost-entirely black cast of characters? In absolutely no way could that effort be called pandering, as so many other efforts to be "progressive" in comics have been. So why wasn't there more reader support? Honest question.

Honestly, I think *that* is more along the lines of what's needed to "diversify" comics. Organic progression, not controversial race-swapping. I find it funny and a little sad, that it's easier for us to accept a character we already knew, with a "fresh coat of paint" (as if that's all it would be - not an entirely different family background, upbringing, educational opportunities or lifestyle, just a simple coat of paint), than we would accept a brand new character. Create a rival reporter who works at Channel 6, give her her own fully-developed backstory, and have her role essentially be, "The Black April O'Neil"? Hey, that's great, and might actually make for some decent stories, too. Expand their universe, make some new friends/enemies, there's some mileage there. Take April herself, who MOST people readily identify as Caucasian, and make her black because "Why Not?" I think that's honestly a poor idea that still comes from a good place, but is not exactly the right way to move things forward.

It wasn't bad when they made Perry White a black guy in "Man of Steel". You know what I liked even *better*, though? When there was a multi-year storyline in the Superman comics where Perry and his wife, Alice, readily adopted a black child named Keith Parks, who was left an orphan after his mother died (I want to say of AIDS, but it's been a few years since I re-read it, and as I said, it went on for years). Keith himself had been well-established in the books for a long time by then (and had actually been occupying the "Jimmy Olsen" role far more frequently than Jimmy himself had been at that particular time, being of great help to Superman on numerous occasions), to the point where once he was adopted by Perry and Alice, it wasn't just accepted, it was *expected*, and it went over quite well with the readers. Probably because, Keith was his own character, they didn't just paint Jimmy Olsen black, or have Perry suddenly be black so his son (adopted or otherwise) could be, too. My memory is fuzzy, but it may have been the first (or at least among the first) examples of a mixed-race family in mainstream comic books. Talk about progressive! I really liked that whole arc; sadly, a few years later, some bored editors retconned the whole thing out so that it never happened. No good deed goes unpunished, I guess.

My point being, I'm all for fictional universes being more inclusive, but I think there's a right and wrong way to do it, and I think pallette-swapping is the wrong way. It's lazy and controversial for the sake of being controversial, most of the time. I'd prefer to see newer, fully-realized characters fit those roles. When someone at DC thought they needed more minorities in the Justice League, they created Vixen and Cyborg, both of whom turned out great. Much better, I say, than if they just decided to "paint" Wonder Woman or Aquaman, "just because".

To be fair, they also created Vibe at the exact same time, so obviously they were still trying to figure the whole thing out. :lol:

[Cipher]

*snip*
I'm of a few minds about this.

The first one being, above everything else, whatever the motivations for "changing" an existing character's race, it doesn't matter. It's neither here nor there.

The second being, yes, while it's probably better to introduce new characters with their own identity, who can make better use of their backgrounds, I'm all for changing a character in a new interpretation as well, if it helps diversify a cast more believably. Multi-decade fictional properties (what we're talking about when we talk about comic-book franchises) are inherently inorganic things. They're more established and increasingly more niche, making the launch of entirely new characters difficult. Most fiction is one-and-done. It doesn't stick around for decades of alteration and retelling. We're going to get change here. Since the status quo reflects inherently inorganic limitations to begin with (namely that, for some of the older properties, companies would whitewash an entire cast in the name of propriety), I have no problem with that being altered to, let alone be more inclusive, just be more realistic.

And the third point being: We accept change in franchise characters all the time. All the time. Let's talk TMNT in particular, which has seen wild variation in its interpretations of its cast and tone over just thirty years:

Splinter can be a mutated rat, or he can be the once-human Hamato Yoshi. He can be a vengeful, short-sited purveyor of the old ways, or he can be a humble father intent on keeping his sons from harm. Casey can be a whacked-out vigilante, a father, a struggling teen. April can be a reporter, a frustrated computer technician, in her thirties, in her twenties, in her teens. Karai can be an amoral ninja leader, Shredder's conflicted daughter, or a sycophant villain. None of the Shredders are even remotely similar.

We've already gotten many interpretations of characters which resemble previous ones so little in background or actions they've only kept the name and concept. We accept these without much of a kerfuffle. If just changing the color of their skin or ethnic background would somehow, in the light of all those other changes, be too much for you, you really need to ask yourself why.

[DarthEmpress]

April's not defined by her race. She could be black, white, or asian and still be April. She's been a reporter, archaeologist, scientist, and antiques seller throughout all her incarnations; despite the changes, she's remained April. Changing her ethnicity wouldn't do anything beyond being a breath of fresh air, in my opinion. They were definitely going to make her blonde in 2k12:

http://media.tumblr.com/177b56c7ab2733c389ab3181d133544c/tumblr_inline_n82c85rilx1r46ii7.jpg

Not to mention have her shipped with Raph.

Anyway, I've already made my multiracial April:

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2014/144/3/1/april_o_neil_by_darthempress-d7jk52y.png

[ssjup81]

What's the point in keeping characters the race they were introduced as? Is this a trick question?

You sound like a token-er.In Mirage, her ethnicity was never fully mentioned, was it? I viewed her as ethnic there, personally.

[zodiac brave]

Frankly, I think it's generally best that they just come up with entirely new characters rather than "tweak" existing ones. If for no other reason than, someone always WILL complain and it's just safer. It always seems like a cheap attention-grab when they take a well-known character and do something they know for a fact will be controversial.

And it's not like they haven't tried, like how I referenced Milestone comics earlier (Which DC didn't actually create, they were simply licensing partners, although DC eventually did absorb pretty much the entire line later on). That was an honest, earnest attempt at creating a metric ton of black super-hero characters. In fact, there weren't a whole ton of Caucasians walking around Dakota City at all, if memory serves. That raises the question, why didn't the line survive? The reason most-often given is "Lack of consumer interest". So, why didn't anyone want to read the books, which were written, created and drawn by black creators, marketed to a black audience, and featuring an almost-entirely black cast of characters? In absolutely no way could that effort be called pandering, as so many other efforts to be "progressive" in comics have been. So why wasn't there more reader support? Honest question.

Honestly, I think *that* is more along the lines of what's needed to "diversify" comics. Organic progression, not controversial race-swapping. I find it funny and a little sad, that it's easier for us to accept a character we already knew, with a "fresh coat of paint" (as if that's all it would be - not an entirely different family background, upbringing, educational opportunities or lifestyle, just a simple coat of paint), than we would accept a brand new character. Create a rival reporter who works at Channel 6, give her her own fully-developed backstory, and have her role essentially be, "The Black April O'Neil"? Hey, that's great, and might actually make for some decent stories, too. Expand their universe, make some new friends/enemies, there's some mileage there. Take April herself, who MOST people readily identify as Caucasian, and make her black because "Why Not?" I think that's honestly a poor idea that still comes from a good place, but is not exactly the right way to move things forward.

It wasn't bad when they made Perry White a black guy in "Man of Steel". You know what I liked even *better*, though? When there was a multi-year storyline in the Superman comics where Perry and his wife, Alice, readily adopted a black child named Keith Parks, who was left an orphan after his mother died (I want to say of AIDS, but it's been a few years since I re-read it, and as I said, it went on for years). Keith himself had been well-established in the books for a long time by then (and had actually been occupying the "Jimmy Olsen" role far more frequently than Jimmy himself had been at that particular time, being of great help to Superman on numerous occasions), to the point where once he was adopted by Perry and Alice, it wasn't just accepted, it was *expected*, and it went over quite well with the readers. Probably because, Keith was his own character, they didn't just paint Jimmy Olsen black, or have Perry suddenly be black so his son (adopted or otherwise) could be, too. My memory is fuzzy, but it may have been the first (or at least among the first) examples of a mixed-race family in mainstream comic books. Talk about progressive! I really liked that whole arc; sadly, a few years later, some bored editors retconned the whole thing out so that it never happened. No good deed goes unpunished, I guess.

My point being, I'm all for fictional universes being more inclusive, but I think there's a right and wrong way to do it, and I think pallette-swapping is the wrong way. It's lazy and controversial for the sake of being controversial, most of the time. I'd prefer to see newer, fully-realized characters fit those roles. When someone at DC thought they needed more minorities in the Justice League, they created Vixen and Cyborg, both of whom turned out great. Much better, I say, than if they just decided to "paint" Wonder Woman or Aquaman, "just because".

To be fair, they also created Vibe at the exact same time, so obviously they were still trying to figure the whole thing out. :lol:

those are really good points that do make a lot of sense, tho i still personally don't think its such a big deal to do a pallete swap. maybe it IS just to be controversial or whatever, but as long as the execution is done well, the work itself will speak over the controversy and level out the waves caused by the change.

one thing i'm curious about is how you feel about movies and tv in this sitch.

what if the best actress they found for april in this flick happened to be black or hispanic? what if the work ethic, chemistry and overall personality of an ethnic actress fit the actual movie-making process for this film better.

in this case there is an organic reason to make the change, but its not one that has to do with plot or story. the controversy is sure to come along, the same as it would for any other reason in this situation, but the justification is "well, this actress has better chops and fits the cast and crew better than any of these other actresses."

would it be better to not rock the boat or keep everything as its always been?

[IMJ]

I agree that it shouldn't matter if a character is black or white. Truly I do. But the problem with this kind of discussion is that in changing an established character, the people arguing for the change tend to disregard that if it doesn't matter that a character is black or white, then there should be no reason to change the character in the first place.

And so, there are two truths here:

Truth #1, it shouldn't matter what race a character is unless that race is somehow pivotal to the character's depiction or struggles in the story.

Truth #2, characters are changed seemingly with disregard to the fact that just as other races want representation, so do white people. However, the modern trend is to make white people villains if they disagree with a change, which in of itself is actually racist against white people. The reality is simple: stop usurping characters when some people feel have an established heritage, and instead be creative and create new, important characters of diverse backgrounds.

Again, it's not one or the other. Both things can be true. This country needs a smart, well rounded generation of young people - not a generation of manipulators.

[pennydreadful]

IMO, adding more diversity and representation to a genre (and media as a whole) that doesn't have enough of it is a good reason in itself.

The second being, yes, while it's probably better to introduce new characters with their own identity, who can make better use of their backgrounds, I'm all for changing a character in a new interpretation as well, if it helps diversify a cast more believably. Multi-decade fictional properties (what we're talking about when we talk about comic-book franchises) are inherently inorganic things. They're more established and increasingly more niche, making the launch of entirely new characters difficult. Most fiction is one-and-done. It doesn't stick around for decades of alteration and retelling. We're going to get change here. Since the status quo reflects inherently inorganic limitations to begin with (namely that, for some of the older properties, companies would whitewash an entire cast in the name of propriety), I have no problem with that being altered to, let alone be more inclusive, just be more realistic.

April's not defined by her race. She could be black, white, or asian and still be April. She's been a reporter, archaeologist, scientist, and antiques seller throughout all her incarnations; despite the changes, she's remained April. Changing her ethnicity wouldn't do anything beyond being a breath of fresh air, in my opinion. They were definitely going to make her blonde in 2k12:

http://media.tumblr.com/177b56c7ab2733c389ab3181d133544c/tumblr_inline_n82c85rilx1r46ii7.jpg

Not to mention have her shipped with Raph.

Anyway, I've already made my multiracial April:

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2014/144/3/1/april_o_neil_by_darthempress-d7jk52y.png

Great artwork, Darth Empress! You rock. :)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with changing an established character to be non-white, or to be more inclusive in general. I woke up this morning to the usual round of "BAWWW, GAY AGENDA" re what they're doing with upping the quota of LGBT characters in the Batgirl series. It's ridiculous, this attitude that "oh, I can't relate to a character if they're black, or gay, or a woman - I don't want to read about that... PC gone mad grumble grumble grumble".

People of color are woefully underrepresented in pop culture, and I'm personally sick of it. The entire world isn't made up of straight, white people. Entertainment should be diversified to reflect the world that we live in, not to maintain an outdated status quo.

White people dominate the majority of entertainment out there. White people have enough privilege as it is. We're not a disenfranchised race, we're not somehow being discriminated against if a previously white character is now being written as black.

[Leo656]

To what ends, though? People can rightly argue, "well, a majority of characters were created in less-enlightened times," but does that give another creator license to go back and tinker with someone else's work? Do we go back and remove every single offensive word from, say, Huck Finn, because we want the character to seem more progressive or enlightened? Why not go all the way, make Huck himself black, and take all the heat off of him entirely? Just make him black so that he can in no way be portrayed as a bigot, despite how often he uses That Word. Seems to make sense on the surface, right? Or, would that be completely undoing the original spirit of the work? Granted, that's an extreme example, but frankly, I'm not comfortable with taking someone else's work and changing it outright, even if it's done with good intentions.

I also don't think you can move forward by looking or reaching backwards. I genuinely think it's more earnest and effective when people come up with new characters. For one thing, it requires a lot more effort and thought on the part of the writer/creator, and shows they're actually trying. I find the New Paint Job "solution" to be pandering. I think it comes from the right place in the heart, but it's a very shallow and cynical approach to solving a much deeper problem.

You know who else I really liked? Ron Troupe, the guy who replaced Clark at the Daily Planet when Clark/Superman was dead. There was another really solid black character that got totally swept under the rug a few years later, after a ton of build-up and execution. Why can't we have more of that instead? They actually did the work! Every time someone suggests color-swapping an existing character, we lose a character like that, it seems. I actually find that less progressive, personally.

I mean, I get what people are getting at, I just think there's a natural way to handle it and a forced way to handle it. I mean, there was a time when almost any new racially-specific character was also a blatant stereotype, so even that wasn't the greatest idea itself, but we're way past that by a few decades. I'd just generally rather see more, better new stuff than tweaks to old stuff. I'm not a huge fan of retcons in general.

[Rooish]

Laird says that April was never intended to be black and although his memory is kind of bad I think he'd remember something like that. So there. I think it would be odd to change her race entirely at this point. TMNT can do way better with having a more racialized cast; however Hamato Yoshi, Oroku Saki and Karai are Japanese, Baxter Stockman is usually black (not that that's particularly good, since he's usually a joke), and Angel is sort of mixed race in some way. It would be nice if she didn't come from the rough side of town, though. Kind of stereotypical.

[Netkeeper]

Laird says that April was never intended to be black and although his memory is kind of bad I think he'd remember something like that.
I don't think he would -- I don't think Laird cared that much about April's race.

[Cipher]

To what ends, though? People can rightly argue, "well, a majority of characters were created in less-enlightened times," but does that give another creator license to go back and tinker with someone else's work? Do we go back and remove every single offensive word from, say, Huck Finn, because we want the character to seem more progressive or enlightened?
There's a false equivalency when we talk about one-off fiction and long franchises, though.

1) Huck Finn is a particularly terrible example because his racial ignorance is actually part of that story, as opposed to, say, too-white comic-book casts which just handwave diversity because of the era they were written in, no other agenda.

But, more saliently, 2) Huck Finn isn't a franchise character. He hasn't changed. He wasn't made to change hands between authors. There aren't new versions of him every year. He isn't an evergreen, in-print-every-month, endlessly re-imagined character.

Comic-book properties, including Turtles, are. They change all the time for any number of reasons, have multiple versions running at once, etc. They stay updated. Which brings me to the question I brought up last page:

Splinter can be a mutated rat, or he can be the once-human Hamato Yoshi. He can be a vengeful, short-sited purveyor of the old ways, or he can be a humble father intent on keeping his sons from harm. Casey can be a whacked-out vigilante, a father, a struggling teen. April can be a reporter, a frustrated computer technician, in her thirties, in her twenties, in her teens. Karai can be an amoral ninja leader, Shredder's conflicted daughter, or a sycophant villain. None of the Shredders are even remotely similar.

How, and why, would an ethnicity change be any more egregious than what we've already seen?

You know who else I really liked? Ron Troupe, the guy who replaced Clark at the Daily Planet when Clark/Superman was dead. There was another really solid black character that got totally swept under the rug a few years later, after a ton of build-up and execution. Why can't we have more of that instead? They actually did the work! Every time someone suggests color-swapping an existing character, we lose a character like that, it seems. I actually find that less progressive, personally.
It's not like you can't have both, though. It just feels like a way of shutting down the conversation.

There's zero reason the next version of TMNT couldn't have Angel and a non-white April.

Laird says that April was never intended to be black and although his memory is kind of bad I think he'd remember something like that. So there. I think it would be odd to change her race entirely at this point.
For what it's worth, I think Eastman's said the opposite at some point: that he did intend for April to be black or of some non-white background. Which Laird disputed, but I think the takeaway is that it's just not something either one of them thought or cared much about, and she could appear one way or the other depending on the art team until later on.

[pennydreadful]

I also don't think you can move forward by looking or reaching backwards. I genuinely think it's more earnest and effective when people come up with new characters. For one thing, it requires a lot more effort and thought on the part of the writer/creator, and shows they're actually trying. I find the New Paint Job "solution" to be pandering. I think it comes from the right place in the heart, but it's a very shallow and cynical approach to solving a much deeper problem.

You know who else I really liked? Ron Troupe, the guy who replaced Clark at the Daily Planet when Clark/Superman was dead. There was another really solid black character that got totally swept under the rug a few years later, after a ton of build-up and execution. Why can't we have more of that instead? They actually did the work! Every time someone suggests color-swapping an existing character, we lose a character like that, it seems. I actually find that less progressive, personally.

I mean, I get what people are getting at, I just think there's a natural way to handle it and a forced way to handle it. I mean, there was a time when almost any new racially-specific character was also a blatant stereotype, so even that wasn't the greatest idea itself, but we're way past that by a few decades. I'd just generally rather see more, better new stuff than tweaks to old stuff. I'm not a huge fan of retcons in general.

Yeah, I get where you're coming from - my partner actually has the exact same opinion so we're always debating about it. :lol: Honestly, I don't know what the solution is - it just seems like when they try to create original characters, it doesn't work because the comic buying community is so set in their ways that they don't give it a chance. If it doesn't have a bat or an X on it, it struggles because nobody wants to pick it up and see how it pans out - they have to buy the 50 different Batman comics that're coming out instead.

I dunno, I could just be talking out of my butt here - I'm not in the world's best mood today so feel free to take what I've said with a grain of salt.

[Leo656]

Cipher: Admittedly, sometimes I use broad strokes to make a point. The point was: Franchise character or one-off, is it either necessary or proper to take an existing fictional work, make a judgment of it, say "We know better now than we did then," and then alter and re-present it? In either case, I'd argue that it's not, in fact, necessary. It was a broad example on purpose, because if you can do that with one type of fiction, it may as well be "allowed" to "re-imagine" everything.

And that's where it goes away from specifically being about race (or religion, or sexual orientation), and becomes about, "I don't think retcons are a good idea, in general, and people would be better served to create their own original ideas rather than tinker with what others have done." Not trying to shut down any conversation, just a personal point of view that retconning in general is lazy storytelling and that color-swapping is a flimsy example of progression, one that often rings false.

Pennydreadful: I get it, I just think race-swapping pre-existing characters is more an illusion or progress than any actual progress. The creators get to have it both ways, playing the role of forward-thinkers without having to do any actual work or actually address any issues. I get the "any progress is an improvement" point of view, I just don't embrace it, and feel that, in some cases, it stifles real change. But I totally get where it comes from: Usually, a genuine desire to see some more diversity in fiction. Which is great, just do it the right way. Put a little more thought into it than, "Well, it's the same character you always knew, just a different tone of ink." I think it over-simplifies a complex issue.

[Xav]

Leo656 is pretty much saying what I'm thinking. What I don't like is when they change a characters race when they easily could have just used an existing character. Like why did Marlon Wayans have to be Ripcord in G.I. Joe? Couldn't he just have been Stalker, Alpine, Doc, Iceberg or any of the other black characters? Or why couldn't Laurence Fishburne have played Franklin Stern in Man of Steel? Would that have ruined the movie?

[Cipher]

And that's where it goes away from specifically being about race (or religion, or sexual orientation), and becomes about, "I don't think retcons are a good idea, in general, and people would be better served to create their own original ideas rather than tinker with what others have done."
But they've already made April a teenager! They've made her a reporter!

Splinter was a rat and now sometimes he's a former-human. Sometimes he's an asshole and other times he's father of the year. Karai went from an honorable, middle-aged ninja executive to Shredder's sycophant evil granddaughter. Sometimes the Turtles are reincarnated Japanese children. Which is all fine, because, hey, different versions. Baxter Stockman is Baxter Stockman whether he's black, white or purple (and he's actually on the consistent side of this franchise, character-wise).

We've already seen changes so extreme the characters only resemble other versions in name and general concept. How would it be any different if, next Turtles incarnation, April wasn't a white redhead?

[BabyTurtles]

Leo656 is pretty much saying what I'm thinking. What I don't like is when they change a characters race when they easily could have just used an existing character. Like why did Marlon Wayans have to be Ripcord in G.I. Joe? Couldn't he just have been Stalker, Alpine, Doc, Iceberg or any of the other black characters? Or why couldn't Laurence Fishburne have played Franklin Stern in Man of Steel? Would that have ruined the movie?

okay then...why can't we just have a new character that's black. She'd be have the same role as April but just be called something else :ohwell:

though I'd just know people would rage saying "where's April??, why couldn't they just have April instead??" XD

[Leo656]

Or why couldn't Laurence Fishburne have played Franklin Stern in Man of Steel? Would that have ruined the movie?

DUDE that's the verrrry first thing I said when I heard the casting, because he would be PERFECT for Franklin Stern! Actually, so was James Earl Jones, who got to play Stern on Lois & Clark.

...Franklin Stern, I should note, who's been erased from recent continuity entirely. :ohwell: There's another strong and above all originally created black character, that editors in more recent, "more progressive" times have swept under the rug. What, a black guy can't be the owner/publisher of the freakin' Daily Planet in the New 52? BAH.

Come to think of it, though, but Superman comics sure did have a lot of people of color in positions of power and/or taking up prime storytelling real estate in the years since 1986. I mean, it's usually pretty subtle, but it's always been there. Steel. Franklin Stern. Keith. All original characters who were presented on equal ground with the established cast. See, I like that. Put the message out there without clubbing anyone over the head with it. And, unlike what would inevitably have happened if the editors had, say, changed Jimmy Olsen, I don't recall anyone raising any objection to those new characters at all based on race, and in fact, they were all very well-received, Steel in particular. I just feel it works better that way. When people aren't so distracted by Change, they can more fully embrace the actual character.

Cipher: I do get what you're saying, and all I can offer is, I've also argued often that I wish the various TMNT interpretations weren't SO disparate so that people could occasionally be more on the same page with things. Lots of differing points of view on that, obviously. I do think it's a flaw in any franchise, frankly, when there's 6 or 7 wildly different versions of the same "basic origin story". I think it limits inclusion and accessibility whenever the answer to a question as simple as, "What is this character's origin?" is to say, "Which one? In THIS version..." I think it's a huge reason why a lot of people dismiss comics and cartoons outright. But again, that's opening up an entirely new and different can of worms.

[Kendamu]

April is most recognizable as a redhead white girl like Barbara Gordon, but if they changed her up to be some other race I really wouldn't care too much. As long as they're not like "NEW BLACK APRIL WITH FRIED CHICKEN AND GRAPE SODA ACCESSORIES" and describe her as "THE TURTLES' WELFARE MOM FRIEND" I'm down with it.

They already played with her age and it turned out well. No reason they couldn't change her race, too.

[Tazi]

SHE IS NOT WHITE, SHE IS GINGER

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/23327853/trollfacetmnt.png

[Casey]

April is most recognizable as a redhead white girl like Barbara Gordon, but if they changed her up to be some other race I really wouldn't care too much. As long as they're not like "NEW BLACK APRIL WITH FRIED CHICKEN AND GRAPE SODA ACCESSORIES" and describe her as "THE TURTLES' WELFARE MOM FRIEND" I'm down with it.

They already played with her age and it turned out well. No reason they couldn't change her race, too.

I don't think that was necessary to say all that. This thread is starting to get a little cringe-worthy.

[oldmanwinters]

Anyway, I've already made my multiracial April:

http://th03.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/i/2014/144/3/1/april_o_neil_by_darthempress-d7jk52y.png

I like your design! Strangely enough, it doesn't look all that different to me from what I've come to expect April to look like... reminds me quite a bit of some of Ross Campbell's April drawings.

[DarthEmpress]

I like your design! Strangely enough, it doesn't look all that different to me from what I've come to expect April to look like... reminds me quite a bit of some of Ross Campbell's April drawings.

Thank you! Ross is a cutie pie and he's going to get an ego boost from this when I tell him XD

[ObiWanFan4life]

Why is this so controversial? Yes, it's a little jarring that she's black, but as long as she acts like April O'Neil, it shouldn't matter.

[BubblyShell22]

I certainly wouldn't care down the line if they had a black April at all. It would be something different, and it could work if her dad was white and her mom was black, which would still give her the O'Neil surname.

And awesome drawings, BT and DE. Those are great.

[Warhorse]

I always thought this chick from the EnVogue video Hold On looked a lot like April from the cartoon, regardless of her skin color. Maybe it was the hair style or her eyes. Still though, I thought she looked more like April than Judith Hoag did when I was a kid.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/Warhorse_1978/EnVogue3.jpg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVewpoMoz1HGeiIvasDLIfcY-o1bv2ElIOFmrlVnahXEXq2LBbe0LNVVY:statici.behindthe voiceactors.com/behindthevoiceactors/_img/chars/char_9852.jpg

[Xav]

SHE IS NOT WHITE, SHE IS GINGERThat brings up a good point. If April was made black than who would represent the ginger gals in the turtleverse?

[Candy Kappa]

April have only been depicted as ginger in the Imagi movie, 4Kids, if her hair color in BttS is her real hair color compared to what she had prior to the previous seasons, IDW and Nick toon.

[CyberCubed]

April have only been depicted as ginger in the Imagi movie, 4Kids, if her hair color in BttS is her real hair color compared to what she had prior to the previous seasons, IDW and Nick toon.

April became a redhead from 4kids onwards. 4th movie, IDW and Nick all kept this look.

Previously she was always brunette as seen in Mirage, OT and Archie. Movies too.

[Candy Kappa]

April became a redhead from 4kids onwards. 4th movie, IDW and Nick all kept this look.

Previously she was always brunette as seen in Mirage, OT and Archie. Movies too.

April's hair color in 4Kids was not a real hair color, it wasn't until the Imagi movie the designs in the show reflected the movie, giving April a more natural hair color.

[Metalwolf]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with changing an established character to be non-white, or to be more inclusive in general. I woke up this morning to the usual round of "BAWWW, GAY AGENDA" re what they're doing with upping the quota of LGBT characters in the Batgirl series. It's ridiculous, this attitude that "oh, I can't relate to a character if they're black, or gay, or a woman - I don't want to read about that... PC gone mad grumble grumble grumble".

I am wondering, do these folks who create these comics know how real gay people act, or do they only have an idealized singular idea of them? Because a lot of these 'gay people' in these comics seem to be highly stereotypical, they often are very open sexually and have many partners, and plus they seem to have a perpetual chip on their shoulder about LGBT issues.

I never liked those characters, they don't act like real people, and most of the time they never seem to reflect that not every person who isn't straight have the same views regarding their sexuality. Plus these writers seem to be wanting to make a ton of LGBT characters (judging by your remark on 'upping the gay quota') merely to be counter-cultural and progressive, even though it seems to be creating resentment. I'm wondering if it isn't because people don't like the idea of LGBT characters, but because it might be coming off as being too pushy and preachy on the idea of 'diversity.'

[pennydreadful]

Eh, it's kind of a difficult question to answer because there's not really a set way that a gay person acts. Some are camp, some are not camp. Some have lots of partners, some don't - just like straight people. I don't think it's as much that they have a chip on their shoulder, they're just more aware of certain issues because they have to deal with their effects on a regular basis.

Sorry if that's not a very good answer - hopefully someone else can chime in and pick up the slack; I'm not in a very good headspace today so my response probably isn't as concise as it usually would have been.

I think a fair chunk of the people who are complaining about comics being more inclusive are mainly made up of the group who never really have anything positive to say about any types of changes in comics as a medium. If it were up to them, comic books wouldn't have changed since the 1940's - it'd just be the straight, white boy's club. I think it's pretty sad that for a bunch of people who grew up reading Xmen stories, Superman stories - basically, tales about accepting people for their differences and treating people decently and fighting injustice and wrongdoing - they throw a snit fit over this kind of thing. It's like the point went right over their heads.

Not saying that everyone's like that so please don't take offense anybody - some people have perfectly valid arguments for not liking certain approaches towards inclusivity (e.g. Leo656 has covered his views quite well) - but it does feel like the empty can rattles the most sometimes, you know what I'm saying?

Sure, nobody likes being preached to - I know I sure don't - but it just comes off sometimes like the boys' club that doesn't want to let anybody else into the treehouse, y'know?

Anyway, sorry if this has come off sounding like I'm a bit full of it - as I said, I'm not really on my game today.

[The Big Bad]

To be honest, I've never thoroughly read the comics before, but based on this cover, wouldn't you assume that she looks that way because curly hair was a trend back then? http://www.miragelicensing.com/comics/mirage/volume01/11/11.html

The curly hair that was popular doesn't really look like April's hair, though--not comic book April's anyway.

This (https://www.google.com.pr/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=651&q=80%27s+curly+hair&oq=80%27s+curly+hair&gs_l=img.3..0l2.989.4822.0.5439.15.10.0.5.5.1.340. 1464.0j1j4j1.6.0....0...1ac.1.48.img..5.10.1141.WJ stnGYlWHU) is what artificially curly hair that was popular in the eighties looks like. Had this been what Eastman was going for, April's hair would have looked more like Judith Hoag's in the first film, or like April's when she's drawn by Michael Dooney.

April's hair the way Eastman and others drew it is not just curly but kinky: it's the sort of hair that has been specifically associated with Black people for centuries, and while it's not impossible for Eastman, Laird, or whomever, to have given her that hair while still intending her to be seen as white, it's unlikely. Add to that the fact that Eastman's April also has notably full lips--another feature associated with people of African descent--and darker skin than most white people tend to sport in comics, and the chances that Eastman intended his version of April to be seen as white plummets.

...which isn't to say that April needed to sport all of these things in order to be convincingly depicted as Black. There is no one single "black look": April could have looked like Troian Bellisario (https://www.google.com.pr/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=651&oq=%22Troian+Bellisario%22+&gs_l=img.3..0l10.1330.6464.0.6918.22.18.1.0.0.0.38 0.3252.0j2j4j5.11.0....0...1ac.1.48.img..11.11.289 5.ML-7UUUYMqo&q=%22Troian%20Bellisario%22) and still have been just as Black as if she'd looked like Lupita Nyong'o (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupita_Nyong%27o).

[oldmanwinters]

April's hair the way Eastman and others drew it is not just curly but kinky: it's the sort of hair that has been specifically associated with Black people for centuries, and while it's not impossible for Eastman, Laird, or whomever, to have given her that hair while still intending her to be seen as white, it's unlikely.

I think it is worth noting that neither Eastman nor Laird (or any other Mirage artists outside of Dooney and maybe Berger) had much skill drawing women, as far as I can tell. April's facial details in the third issue make her look middle aged at times. Basically, I wouldn't read too much into their artistic choices, because it was probably the best they could do.

EDIT:

We've hashed this debate in the Forums many times before. This thread actually cites some memories of interviews from E&L regarding their disagreement over April's original ethnicity:
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=31810
So yeah... Eastman claims he thought of early April as black while Laird thought of her as white. And they clearly disagreed on the real story after 20 years.

[The Big Bad]

I think it is worth noting that neither Eastman nor Laird (or any other Mirage artists outside of Dooney and maybe Berger) had much skill drawing women, as far as I can tell. April's facial details in the third issue make her look middle aged at times. Basically, I wouldn't read too much into their artistic choices, because it was probably the best they could do.


I don't buy this. Yes, Eastman and Laird both went through a period of finding their feet. Yes, their women were especially rough, Laird's more so than Eastman's. Were April's features unintentional, though, one would expect them to continue to change through Eastman's tenure in the book, and yet this is not the case. Those same features coding her as black remain remarkably consistent in Eastman-drawn books all the way to issue #50, far too late to chalk them up to early installment weirdness.


This comes up on Tumblr every now and again, with people cherry picking art from various covers and pages depending on which side of the argument they happen to lean towards.

How April looks really depends on who's drawing her, and in the case of the panels that started this thread: who's coloring her.


Well...yes and no. I've been working on a (http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2013/11/25/a-visual-history-of-april-oneil-part-1-1984-1987/) series (http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2014/04/15/a-visual-history-of-april-oneil-part-2-1988-1991/) of (http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2014/04/22/a-visual-history-of-april-oneil-part-3-1992-1996/) blogposts (http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2014/07/07/a-visual-history-of-april-oneil-part-6-miscellanea/) showcasing her visual evolution across all mediums, and I would say that, even without cherrypicking, a case exists for the argument that she was consistently--if by no means uniformly--depicted as black. To what degree depends on the artist, but I think it's safe to say that the issue #32 reprint is less a fluke than it is the natural conclusion of what various artists had been doing.

[oldmanwinters]

I don't buy this. Yes, Eastman and Laird both went through a period of finding their feet. Yes, their women were especially rough, Laird's more so than Eastman's. Were April's features unintentional, though, one would expect them to continue to change through Eastman's tenure in the book, and yet this is not the case. Those same features coding her as black remain remarkably consistent in Eastman-drawn books all the way to issue #50, far too late to chalk them up to early installment weirdness.


But doesn't her appearance after issue #50 quality as such an evolution of design? Remember, E&L had minimal and sporadic involvement in Volume 1 between issues #22-47.

[plastroncafe]

April's hair the way Eastman and others drew it is not just curly but kinky: it's the sort of hair that has been specifically associated with Black people for centuries, and while it's not impossible for Eastman, Laird, or whomever, to have given her that hair while still intending her to be seen as white, it's unlikely. Add to that the fact that Eastman's April also has notably full lips--another feature associated with people of African descent--and darker skin than most white people tend to sport in comics, and the chances that Eastman intended his version of April to be seen as white plummets.


Regarding April's Hair, I feel it's important to point out that in Issue 4 of Volume 1 she mentions having her hair permed. Her hair isn't that curly naturally, but because she had it done that way at a salon.

[Refractive Reflections]

Regarding April's Hair, I feel it's important to point out that in Issue 4 of Volume 1 she mentions having her hair permed. Her hair isn't that curly naturally, but because she had it done that way at a salon.

Those were the 80s :lol: with all of the hair perms and hair crimping.
http://www.struts.co.uk/party-fancy-dress-shop/images/24520rs.jpghttp://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/c9/64/f8/c964f833b6d7b6d0c7c51825d23ad3bc.jpghttp://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/14/4c/8d/144c8dcf9bd2eed541752c86624fdad9.jpg

[plastroncafe]

It was a dark time.
Let us never speak of it again.

[ssjup81]

Regarding April's Hair, I feel it's important to point out that in Issue 4 of Volume 1 she mentions having her hair permed. Her hair isn't that curly naturally, but because she had it done that way at a salon.Really? Was her hair straight for that issue?

[plastroncafe]

Really? Was her hair straight for that issue?

No, this is what her first entrance in issue 4 looks like:
http://nymonsters.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/tmnt-4-1985-01.jpg

And this is what she looked like in issue 2:
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130406071716/tmnt/images/2/20/2372969-mirage_april_6.jpg

[ssjup81]

Oh I remember those now! I'd forgotten. I recalled the curly do, but thought it was natural. So yeah makes sense for her to be white. If she were black "perm" would have a different meaning.

[CyberCubed]

Mirage April was always ugly looking, she looked like a dog.

Thankfully the cartoons/movies/archie/IDW comics all made her a lot cuter and pleasing to the eye.

[Newton Gimmick]

April isn't black or white... She's a drawing.

As for this:

http://media.tumblr.com/ccffd6b46235b568028ebe8dbef6af02/tumblr_inline_mwhyq018gl1qmks9t.jpg

Yeah, there were tons of white girls who looked exactly like this in the 80s. Hair and all.

There's really no evidence that April was ever intended to be black, beyond some crappy artwork that could be seen either way and Kevin Eastman's random tall tales a few years ago back when he was in his major "Cool Uncle" mode and was saying anything and everything to seem hip and connected to the franchise. These days he's more normal.

And there's really no point in making April black. Randomly changing her ethnicity doesn't add anything to the character and serves no point. And if the point is to make a "strong black character" then you need to create one, not randomly change the color of someone. That's just lazy.

And the only medium this would likely ever happen in is film and it seems unlikely that's going to happen anytime soon. So this is just an excessive discussion in nothingness.

[Cryomancer]

Well...yes and no. I've been working on a (http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2013/11/25/a-visual-history-of-april-oneil-part-1-1984-1987/) series (http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2014/04/15/a-visual-history-of-april-oneil-part-2-1988-1991/) of (http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2014/04/22/a-visual-history-of-april-oneil-part-3-1992-1996/) blogposts (http://doknowbutchie.wordpress.com/2014/07/07/a-visual-history-of-april-oneil-part-6-miscellanea/) showcasing her visual evolution across all mediums, and I would say that, even without cherrypicking, a case exists for the argument that she was consistently--if by no means uniformly--depicted as black. To what degree depends on the artist, but I think it's safe to say that the issue #32 reprint is less a fluke than it is the natural conclusion of what various artists had been doing.

These posts are pretty cool, whether you are into this conversation or not. Obviously they are quite interesting in context, but even just as a series of images it's neat as well. I would be interested in seeing a similar timeline for other characters too, like Karai.

Very compelling posts, good stuff.

[plastroncafe]

April isn't black or white... She's a drawing.


I see your pedantry and raise you: She's a black and white drawing.

[rickwj324]

Has Eastman and/or Laird ever gone on record as saying that she was in fact African in any of the comics?

[oldmanwinters]

I see your pedantry and raise you: She's a black and white drawing.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y169/adamwinters/random%20pics/SteaksRaised_zpse9f6c0a0.jpg (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/adamwinters/media/random%20pics/SteaksRaised_zpse9f6c0a0.jpg.html)

[Parabellum]

TBH, Mirage April always came across as mixed to me with the way her hair was.

I agree, or Hispanic.

[The Big Bad]

Has Eastman and/or Laird ever gone on record as saying that she was in fact African in any of the comics?

Nope. Laird has asserted rather emphatically that he always saw her as white, which is debatable--the whole "he originally conceived her as Asian" claim--and doesn't actually confirm or deny what she actually was. Eastman has never confirmed or denied it.

Regarding April's Hair, I feel it's important to point out that in Issue 4 of Volume 1 she mentions having her hair permed. Her hair isn't that curly naturally, but because she had it done that way at a salon.

I know; I mentioned earlier that there's a distinct visual difference between the usual perm and April's hair--April's hair does not look like the one in Refractive Reflection's post (the first one of those is a wig, by the way). Still, I'd be willing to buy the explanation given as something other than a handwave if other major aspects of her design hadn't also changed along with her hair.



And there's really no point in making April black. Randomly changing her ethnicity doesn't add anything to the character and serves no point. And if the point is to make a "strong black character" then you need to create one, not randomly change the color of someone. That's just lazy.

And the only medium this would likely ever happen in is film and it seems unlikely that's going to happen anytime soon. So this is just an excessive discussion in nothingness.

Not important to you, perhaps. I guarantee, though, that if in the original cartoon and film had looked like she did in issue #11, it would have been transgressive, original, and radical.

Think Star Trek and Nyota Uhura, a character so important due to being a black woman in a spaceship, that Martin Luther King Jr. stepped in to try and convince Nichelle Nichols to stay on the show. A character, who, in showing black girls that they didn't just have to be servants, and could dare to aspire for more, inspired Whoopi Goldberg--not irrelevant to the turtles--who then inspired Lupita Nyong'o. Black women have been inspired to become astronauts because of her.

This is who April could have been. While she couldn't have exactly broken the same ground Uhura did, having a black female character be the female lead of the biggest cartoon at the time and several hit films would have been no small thing. Even the damsel in distress thing, which is a bad joke when done to a white woman, gains a more positive dimension when applied to a black one: in a society that constantly expects black women to be invulnerable and do everything by themselves, asserting that a black woman can require help, be deserving of it and still be considered worthwhile becomes, again, radical.

[Newton Gimmick]

I see your pedantry and raise you: She's a black and white drawing.

But of course. Everybody wins.

Not important to you, perhaps. I guarantee, though, that if in the original cartoon and film had looked like she did in issue #11, it would have been transgressive, original, and radical.

Think Star Trek and Nyota Uhura, a character so important due to being a black woman in a spaceship, that Martin Luther King Jr. stepped in to try and convince Nichelle Nichols to stay on the show. A character, who, in showing black girls that they didn't just have to be servants, and could dare to aspire for more, inspired Whoopi Goldberg--not irrelevant to the turtles--who then inspired Lupita Nyong'o. Black women have been inspired to become astronauts because of her.

This is who April could have been. While she couldn't have exactly broken the same ground Uhura did, having a black female character be the female lead of the biggest cartoon at the time and several hit films would have been no small thing.

The thing is, that's all speculation and it's a bit of a stretch, IMO. There are so many intangibles there. Not the least of which, being that the Star Trek stuff was in the 1960s and TMNT took the world by storm at the start of the 90s. The impact of having a black lead character was greatly diminished 30 years later, if there would be any impact at all.

And if April had been black, there's no guarantee that the show would have been the hit that it became. If you change something, anything, with the formula at that exact time, it could have changed how popular the show became. The show wasn't a hit because April was white, but the show WAS a hit when April was white. There's no telling what the ramifications would have been if she had been anything else.

I think it's a bit of hyperbole to assume that having a cartoon character be black, would inspire a generation to respect black women or make black women feel empowered. April was largely a pointless plot device and a news reporter, not the equal of Captain Kirk on a futuristic utopia society. By that time, REAL black women were already REAL news reporters. There were plenty of legit black women role models in the era, cartoon characters were hardly going to be landmark anything in contrast.

[Coola Yagami]

Black April? I'd hit that. Even as a child if still be checkin that out if age looked that good in the yellow jumpsuit.

I also like the 'she's a drawing' comment. So... Shredder isn't asian cause he's a drawing?

[Powder]

I also like the 'she's a drawing' comment. So... Shredder isn't asian cause he's a drawing?


She is literally a drawing. She was not spawned of egg & sperm, but paper & pencil (& crystal). Read volume 4.

[Coola Yagami]

She is literally a drawing. She was not spawned of egg & sperm, but paper & pencil (& crystal). Read volume 4.

True true. Wasn't she a pen or ink drawing though, which explains why she lasted longer than Kirby's pencil drawings?

[Powder]

I dunno, it's been a while since I read it. I'm far more eager to retread Tales issues than I am volume 4. :trazz:

[Newton Gimmick]

Glad my drawing comment wasn't lost on everyone.

[The Big Bad]

The thing is, that's all speculation and it's a bit of a stretch, IMO. There are so many intangibles there. Not the least of which, being that the Star Trek stuff was in the 1960s and TMNT took the world by storm at the start of the 90s. The impact of having a black lead character was greatly diminished 30 years later, if there would be any impact at all.

Really? Because the only way the impact would be diminished would be if works with black women as their leads had become commonplace, or more commonplace. They had not.

April was largely a pointless plot device and a news reporter

So? The execution of Uhura's character was plenty problematic; that didn't stop her from being important and historic. What's more, April is still the primary female character, the audience identification character, and the baseline for normalcy, roles which black women are still almost never given, even in 2014. And we're not just talking about the old cartoon here. While she being black in the cartoon wouldn't have guaranteed that she wouldn't be whitewashed or excluded elsewhere, there would have also been a better than normal chance that she would have been black elsewhere. The Archie comics for sure. The 4Kids toon, probably.

By that time, REAL black women were already REAL news reporters. There were plenty of legit black women role models in the era, cartoon characters were hardly going to be landmark anything in contrast.

Yes, black women were reporters during the nineties, and earlier. The problem is that mainstream fiction did and continues to do its best to make these women invisible or marginal, which has tangible and detrimental effects. Just how many black women did actually make it to the cartoon as anything other than extras? Heck, how many are there in the Nick cartoon?

[Casey]

Nope. Laird has asserted rather emphatically that he always saw her as white, which is debatable--the whole "he originally conceived her as Asian" claim--and doesn't actually confirm or deny what she actually was. Eastman has never confirmed or denied it.



I know; I mentioned earlier that there's a distinct visual difference between the usual perm and April's hair--April's hair does not look like the one in Refractive Reflection's post (the first one of those is a wig, by the way). Still, I'd be willing to buy the explanation given as something other than a handwave if other major aspects of her design hadn't also changed along with her hair.




Not important to you, perhaps. I guarantee, though, that if in the original cartoon and film had looked like she did in issue #11, it would have been transgressive, original, and radical.

Think Star Trek and Nyota Uhura, a character so important due to being a black woman in a spaceship, that Martin Luther King Jr. stepped in to try and convince Nichelle Nichols to stay on the show. A character, who, in showing black girls that they didn't just have to be servants, and could dare to aspire for more, inspired Whoopi Goldberg--not irrelevant to the turtles--who then inspired Lupita Nyong'o. Black women have been inspired to become astronauts because of her.

This is who April could have been. While she couldn't have exactly broken the same ground Uhura did, having a black female character be the female lead of the biggest cartoon at the time and several hit films would have been no small thing. Even the damsel in distress thing, which is a bad joke when done to a white woman, gains a more positive dimension when applied to a black one: in a society that constantly expects black women to be invulnerable and do everything by themselves, asserting that a black woman can require help, be deserving of it and still be considered worthwhile becomes, again, radical.


Yes. Yes. Yes. This.

[Casey]

We should also appreciate Sophie Campbell's fanfic's April:

http://secretsoftheooze.smackjeeves.com/comics/2270209/april/

[Commenter 42]

We should also appreciate Sophie Campbell's fanfic's April:

http://secretsoftheooze.smackjeeves.com/comics/2270209/april/

Like hell.

[plastroncafe]

We should also appreciate Sophie Campbell's fanfic's April:

http://secretsoftheooze.smackjeeves.com/comics/2270209/april/

Done and done!
I love her work.

[thundermaster612]

Who did the coloring in that version? because I have seen an older color comic variant where she is white, perhaps the person was confused or such?

[Mew]

Who did the coloring in that version? because I have seen an older color comic variant where she is white, perhaps the person was confused or such?
Care to share what you are talking about?

[Casey]

Who did the coloring in that version? because I have seen an older color comic variant where she is white, perhaps the person was confused or such?

I actually think it was a black and white comic. I could be mistaken, but I think it's Mirage Vol 1 Issue 32. And the version in color was a reprint probably Mark Bode or Bill Fitts.

[thundermaster612]

Care to share what you are talking about?

I found it on google images when I looked up TMNT Mirage #21 in the center closer to the bottom

[Zage]

April isn't black or white... She's a drawing.

As for this:

http://media.tumblr.com/ccffd6b46235b568028ebe8dbef6af02/tumblr_inline_mwhyq018gl1qmks9t.jpg

Yeah, there were tons of white girls who looked exactly like this in the 80s. Hair and all.

There's really no evidence that April was ever intended to be black, beyond some crappy artwork that could be seen either way and Kevin Eastman's random tall tales a few years ago back when he was in his major "Cool Uncle" mode and was saying anything and everything to seem hip and connected to the franchise. These days he's more normal.

And there's really no point in making April black. Randomly changing her ethnicity doesn't add anything to the character and serves no point. And if the point is to make a "strong black character" then you need to create one, not randomly change the color of someone. That's just lazy.

And the only medium this would likely ever happen in is film and it seems unlikely that's going to happen anytime soon. So this is just an excessive discussion in nothingness.She looks like she could be Latina, in that pic. :tgrin:

[BH Daimaouji]

Well i'm in for black and asian women, heck look at this cutie

http://polki.pl/work/privateimages/formats/V5_MT_LIFE/313240.jpg

[Commenter 42]

She looks like she could be Latina, in that pic. :tgrin:

She also looks like Cher.

and Sigourney Weaver.

and Jamie Lee Curtis.

and Christy Turlington.

...

[Prowler]

It's really fascinating(read: odd) how people on the internet have become so obsessed with race and racism in the last few years.

[OA]

She looks like she could be Latina, in that pic. :tgrin:

Looking at the original painting of that piece on my wall right now, and her face is actually a bit tanner in real life, so you might be onto something!

[plastroncafe]

It's almost as if people are growing tired of white as default.

[CyberCubed]

It's almost as if people are growing tired of white as default.

But that's because there are more white people in the world than any other race. All the European countries can be considered white, as well as Australia and so forth.

Don't people consider Russian, British, French, Swedish, Norwegian, Australian, etc. people, "white?"

[plastroncafe]

No they're really aren't more white people.
In the US there are, but world wide...no.

[Mew]

I found it on google images when I looked up TMNT Mirage #21 in the center closer to the bottom
Is this it?
http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com/tmnt/tmnt21.jpg [/COLOR]

[Powder]

Nooooo. That's Pimiko, Shredder's daughter.

I imagine he's talking about something like this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M1fwrc4ah-U/UoggFlo9TaI/AAAAAAAALb0/34pBGb7g-Q0/s1600/Nice+Tan+April.jpg

[Candy Kappa]

It's kinda weird having turtles advocate for dark and cold over warm and sunny. :lol:

[neatoman]

Is this it?
http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com/tmnt/tmnt21.jpg [/COLOR]

Is Pimiko trying to get laid here or something? If so she has some rather exotic tastes.

[Powder]

It's kinda weird having turtles advocate for dark and cold over warm and sunny. :lol:

As a fellow New Yorker, nah, we like it like that. :tlol:

[Cryomancer]

But that's because there are more white people in the world than any other race. All the European countries can be considered white, as well as Australia and so forth.

Don't people consider Russian, British, French, Swedish, Norwegian, Australian, etc. people, "white?"

Ever heard of China?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_contemporary_ethnic_groups Sort it by Population.

[Prowler]

I doubt people in China are concerned about April's racial/ethnic background

[Cryomancer]

I doubt people in China are concerned about April's racial/ethnic background

Well there's a whole lot of people there, so maybe at least one person does. I'm responding to his claim of white people being the most common "in the world".

[Prowler]

Well there's a whole lot of people there, so maybe at least one person does. I'm responding to his claim of white people being the most common "in the world".
And that person should ask herself what right she has to demand an American cartoon to introduce a Chinese character.

Apparently many people find it hard to relate themselves to characters of a different race than them. I never had this issue and even like fictional female characters. Plus, when it comes to real life examples, what about all those kids who admire professional athletes? Many of them not being from the same race/ethnic group/nationality as them?

[Ninturtle]

I'm honestly not a big fan of race changes in characters unless it's a character taking another characters mantle (like Miles Morales becoming Spider Man).Making April black would only make her less physically recognizable as the characters, if you want more black characters you can just create new ones of use characters established as black.

[CyberCubed]

April became a ginger.

[Commenter 42]

Ginger is the N word for People with Orange hair.

I read it on the internet once.

[ToTheNines]

Shame on a Ginga.

[Commenter 42]

Fire crotch.

[CyberCubed]

We already have two major black characters in the TMNT universe: Baxter Stockman and Bebop.

We have many Asians in the TMNT universe, Shredder, Karai, half the Foot Clan, etc. For hispanics we have some Purple Dragon members, Angel, etc.

Casey and April being white is fine. If you want other races you have other characters.

[Prowler]

We already have two major black characters in the TMNT universe: Baxter Stockman and Bebop.

We have many Asians in the TMNT universe, Shredder, Karai, half the Foot Clan, etc. For hispanics we have some Purple Dragon members, Angel, etc.

Casey and April being white is fine. If you want other races you have other characters.
CC saying something 100% logic for a change.

[plastroncafe]

We already have two major black characters in the TMNT universe: Baxter Stockman and Bebop.

We have many Asians in the TMNT universe, Shredder, Karai, half the Foot Clan, etc. For hispanics we have some Purple Dragon members, Angel, etc.

Casey and April being white is fine. If you want other races you have other characters.

And just like in real life most of them are badguys.
That is the message you're trying to get across, right?

Here's what I don't get, people fall all over themselves to talk about how they have no problem what so ever identifying with a character that is a different ethnicity that they are, right up to the point where someone makes a suggestion of changing a character's ethnicity...and then they freak out.

There's nothing in April's backstory that says she has to be white.
Nothing.

You could easily shift her ethnicity and not dramatically change her story in the slightest.
So...what's the harm in people doing that?

[CyberCubed]

The thing is most of the TMNT characters are mutant animals or aliens. Many of the humans are side characters as it is. Turtles has more mutants/aliens than humans in most incarnations, and whatever human characters there are tend to be villains because well...the TMNT need someone to fight.

You're talking about a franchise where most of the cast are talking animals or aliens. Of course what few humans there are represent decent diversity.

[plastroncafe]

We don't agree on the meaning of the phrase "decent diversity."
We probably never will.

[Prowler]

And just like in real life most of them are badguys.
That is the message you're trying to get across, right?

Here's what I don't get, people fall all over themselves to talk about how they have no problem what so ever identifying with a character that is a different ethnicity that they are, right up to the point where someone makes a suggestion of changing a character's ethnicity...and then they freak out.

There's nothing in April's backstory that says she has to be white.
Nothing.

You could easily shift her ethnicity and not dramatically change her story in the slightest.
So...what's the harm in people doing that?
Yeah, when I was a kid I thought all black people were bad because Bebop was a bad guy in the Fred Wolf series. Also thought Japanese people were bad because the main villain of the show, Shredder, was a Japanese man. I know kids can be gullible and dumb, but they're not that dumb.

It's stupid to change an established character's race. I was livid when they tried to make Shredder white in the Bay films, per example.

If you want more black, asian, purple, wtv. characters in TMNT then let the creators make original characters instead of racially washing already existing ones. That just comes across as trying too hard to be PC.

And how would April being black instead of white make her character better? The whole "because diversity" thing is a BS argument, so don't give me that.

It's funny how people who bitch the most about this sort of thing are the ones that actually obsess about race the most.

[plastroncafe]

How would such a change make her worse?
It wouldn't.

[Commenter 42]

April's white. Laird was pretty adamant about it. He specified Irish.

There used to be a time when being Irish had it's own set of problems and stereotypes.

But if you want diversity, she's the ONLY Ginger, so, leave it ****ing be.

Unless you have something against Orange folks.

[plastroncafe]

Funny, most of this board doesn't see her as a redhead.

[Commenter 42]

Funny, most of this board doesn't see her as a redhead.

Most of me doesn't care.

[plastroncafe]

That's pretty much how I feel about Laird's opinion on the matter. He lost his authority on the property when he cashed in.

[Coola Yagami]

Might as well turn Bebop white. Nowhere in his history does it say he has to be black. Rocksteady is white and is as much of a thug as he is, so they both could have been white for the few seconds before they mutated into the animals we mostly care about and it wouldn't have made a difference.

I hate racial changing, wether it's whitewashing or the reverse. Just make more character of different race, like when they created Angel. The IDW version of her is pretty bad ass and she isn't some pre-existing character that was suddenly changed Latina. She was an all new character.

[Utrommaniac]

April's white. Laird was pretty adamant about it. He specified Irish.

There used to be a time when being Irish had it's own set of problems and stereotypes.

But if you want diversity, she's the ONLY Ginger, so, leave it ****ing be.

Unless you have something against Orange folks.

YES. And anti-Irish sentiments still exist in small corners of the world. Mostly in Europe. There's a lot of patches of Europe that have white people scrutinized by other white people (the Romani being a well-known example-or are technically white, just on the tan side). This is why Annie had curly red hair and freckles in the original movie. Because when it was first made, in 1982, red haired and freckled children were "undesirable" in the world of adopting children. Since this no longer exists (sort of), it made sense to transfer that to a black girl in the remake.
It would make sense for Laird to want April to be Irish because in his schooldays, Irish people would have been on the same level as black people in terms of prejudice. Or at least at the end of that period in the US.

I find it amazing how few white people there are in TMNT. April and Casey are the only two in the "major character" category. Maybe Rocksteady counts too. But other than that? Japanese or mutants that were originally animals. Granted, FW also had Vernon and Bern, and maybe Irma (though she could also be ethnically Jewish considering her last name).

[Commenter 42]

Naw, y'all can't have Bebop. Nope. He's ours.
Baxter too.

Speaking of, if you a'int seen The people vs O.J. Simpson
check it out, and tell me Courtney B. Vance wouldn't have made a damn fine Mirage Baxter.

https://tribzap2it.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/courtney-b-vance-people-v-oj-simpson-fx.jpg?w=769&h=432
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/tmnt/tmnt_files/tmnt-profile-baxter-mirage.jpg

[CyberCubed]

Might as well turn Bebop white. Nowhere in his history does it say he has to be black. Rocksteady is white and is as much of a thug as he is, so they both could have been white for the few seconds before they mutated into the animals we mostly care about and it wouldn't have made a difference.r.

No, Bebop HAS to be black. If he's white that ruins everything.

Bebop has been black in every incarnation:

- Original cartoon
- Archie comics
- Nick cartoon
- IDW comics
- Platinum Dunes movies

That's 5 versions of human Bebop we've seen and he's the same black guy with a purple mohawk in shades in all of them. Bebop being black is iconic.

[Commenter 42]

YES. And anti-Irish sentiments still exist in small corners of the world. Mostly in Europe. There's a lot of patches of Europe that have white people scrutinized by other white people (the Romani being a well-known example-or are technically white, just on the tan side). This is why Annie had curly red hair and freckles in the original movie. Because when it was first made, in 1982, red haired and freckled children were "undesirable" in the world of adopting children. Since this no longer exists (sort of), it made sense to transfer that to a black girl in the remake.
It would make sense for Laird to want April to be Irish because in his schooldays, Irish people would have been on the same level as black people in terms of prejudice. Or at least at the end of that period in the US.

I find it amazing how few white people there are in TMNT. April and Casey are the only two in the "major character" category. Maybe Rocksteady counts too. But other than that? Japanese or mutants that were originally animals. Granted, FW also had Vernon and Bern, and maybe Irma (though she could also be ethnically Jewish considering her last name).


Yeah, I've said before, There was a kid at our school, used to get beat hard just for the orange hair. Didn't help that he was kinda fuggly, but it happened a helluva lot.

At least we had crew. Little man had nobody.

[plastroncafe]

Annie was based on a comic strip character from the 1930s

[Utrommaniac]

Naw, y'all can't have Bebop. Nope. He's ours.
Baxter too.

Speaking of, if you a'int seen The people vs O.J. Simpson
check it out, and tell me Courtney B. Vance wouldn't have made a damn fine Mirage Baxter.

https://tribzap2it.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/courtney-b-vance-people-v-oj-simpson-fx.jpg?w=769&h=432
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/tmnt/tmnt_files/tmnt-profile-baxter-mirage.jpg

Ditch the glasses, and he'd make a pretty good IDW Baxter Stockman too.

Annie was based on a comic strip character from the 1930s

I forget that a lot sometimes. For some reason, I don't connect Little Orphan Annie with the musical even though they're basically the same thing. And then I disconnect the comic from the radio show? ("Be sure to drink your Ovaltine")
But even then, Annie still had those good old Irish traits of curly red hair, when anti-Irish sentiment was at its peak. Back when Irish (and German) immigration was as despised as Middle Eastern/Mexican immigration is today.

[Commenter 42]

Annie was based on a comic strip character from the 1930s

He meant the movie I think... who knows...my "Annie" knowledge is admittedly a few bars from Tomorrow and the fact that Warbucks was a dead ringer for Luthor.

You know about the Italian/Irish feuds right?

I thought you were from Boston...

[Coola Yagami]

No, Bebop HAS to be black. If he's white that ruins everything.

Bebop has been black in every incarnation:

- Original cartoon
- Archie comics
- Nick cartoon
- IDW comics
- Platinum Dunes movies

That's 5 versions of human Bebop we've seen and he's the same black guy with a purple mohawk in shades in all of them. Bebop being black is iconic.

I know that Cubed. I was only stating an example. Just like people seem to easy to dismiss April as 'she can be black because nowhere in her history or backstory does it say she has to be white' the same can apply to Bebop where nothing in his backstory says he has to be black.

Leave April white, leave Bebop black and just create new and awesome characters of other races like Angel.

[Utrommaniac]

You know about the Italian/Irish feuds right?

I thought you were from Boston...
Nah, I've never even been to Boston...but I did have an AP US History class in high school, so I learned quite a lot about that nasty time of 1930's immigration issues. Of which, now that you remind me, the Italians were included in. But that was in 2010/2011, so my memories of that are a little fuzzy.

[Commenter 42]

Nah, I've never even been to Boston...but I did have an AP US History class in high school, so I learned quite a lot about that nasty time of 1930's immigration issues. Of which, now that you remind me, the Italians were included in. But that was in 2010/2011, so my memories of that are a little fuzzy.

Sorry - the Boston thing was aimed @plastron, whom i'm sure must have run up against some of the hostility between said groups.

Maybe that's an old thing, been years since my last visit.

But yeah, the orange hair kids are universally hated, so, to be inclusive, April should totally be a ging...er...Irish.

Check out a clip here: Vance is intense.
iSg0Xa2tZ1M

[Prowler]

How would such a change make her worse?
It wouldn't.
And how would such a change make her better? It wouldn't. Therefore, it'd be a pointless change.

YES. And anti-Irish sentiments still exist in small corners of the world. Mostly in Europe. There's a lot of patches of Europe that have white people scrutinized by other white people (the Romani being a well-known example-or are technically white, just on the tan side). This is why Annie had curly red hair and freckles in the original movie. Because when it was first made, in 1982, red haired and freckled children were "undesirable" in the world of adopting children. Since this no longer exists (sort of), it made sense to transfer that to a black girl in the remake.
It would make sense for Laird to want April to be Irish because in his schooldays, Irish people would have been on the same level as black people in terms of prejudice. Or at least at the end of that period in the US.

I find it amazing how few white people there are in TMNT. April and Casey are the only two in the "major character" category. Maybe Rocksteady counts too. But other than that? Japanese or mutants that were originally animals. Granted, FW also had Vernon and Bern, and maybe Irma (though she could also be ethnically Jewish considering her last name).

Where in Europe are the Irish victims of discrimination nowadays? Maybe in some places in England but in other European countries? Never heard of such thing. The Irish don't immigrate nowadays. Their country is fairly prosperous.

And the Gypsies aren't considered White because they're not an indigenous European "tribe". They came from India several centuries ago and have kept mostly to themselves. Rarely will a Gypsy marry outside of his/her community. If you walked past a suit wearing Gypsy you'd probably think he was an Indian or a Pakistani.

And Gypsies are hated for a lot of things. It's become a sort of chicken/egg sort of thing. But it's best not to talk about it in this thread.

[Commenter 42]

So, it's settled. April is clearly a Gypsy.

[Candy Kappa]

So, it's settled. April is clearly a Gypsy.

Could be a Irish Traveler. :P

[Commenter 42]

Could be a Irish Traveler. :P

Touché. :lol:

[MsMarvelDuckie]

Y'know, I'm in the camp of "her race doesn't need changing" here, for much the same reason as most others in that camp. Mainly being:

!. Changing a character's race "just because/diversity!" is really stupid and lazy. It's pointless and adds nothing to the character of value. In fact, I'd say it detracts from the character. It is jarring for fans (and even casual readers/watchers) to suddenly see a character they have come to know as one thing suddenly be something else. Suddenly, that character becomes very different when portrayed in movies or cartoons, as having her be black in a movie would mean that she would be portrayed by a black actress- which automatically makes her VERY different from every other version of the character by default.

2: More importantly, changing racial identity of a fictional character changes EVERYTHING about who that character IS!! Can't stress this enough. A black or Asian April would be VERY different from one whose roots are Irish or at least Caucasian. It changes how she grew up, her cultural background, literally EVERYTHING about her past. As a simple example, an Asian April would have grown up with Asian culture and history, with the expectations and familial hierarchy that goes with that. A Latina April would most likely have a large family and be Catholic, with all that those things imply. Changing her to a Middle Eastern or Indian woman would change her background and outlook even more! Why would anyone want to change who the character IS, by changing who they WERE?! I makes no sense at all, from a logical and story-telling standpoint. The way they are raised and taught, what expectations are put on them by friends and family as a child, EVERYTHING would change, making them that character IN NAME ONLY.

3: Ret-cons in general DO NOT WORK. I can't stress how often I've seen continuity and character growth or development go right out the window because of a ret-con changing some aspect of their background or some event in the story. Even in a "new" incarnation, it would change what fans and the public understand about that character's role in the story, or how they view them personally. Not to mention the fact that while SOME might identify with the new race, others would be less likely to do so, and it loses a lot of fans. EVERY TIME. We saw it happen with Fan4stic, and it was a HUGE mistake. Changing Johnny (and his dad) changed who he was as a character, and even though it was a "new" version, it rang false to the character's established personality and background. IT was not Jonny the show-boating, flirty irresponsible playboy from the comics and first movies, it was just some guy they gave his name to. With NONE of the character traits he should have had, because he was different on EVERY level. Because they decided to make him black "for diversity". And it FAILED.

There are plenty of other examples off why this idea is fundamentally flawed, but I think it's clear that changing April's race (even if it was originally vaguely ambiguous) would do NOTHING positive for the character or her role in the story, and would alienate too many fans. Also, I would like to add here that even though we are talking about fictional characters, they are still PEOPLE, first and foremost. People in the real world don't/can't change their race, ethnicity, or skin color out of the blue for no reason, and neither should people in a fictional world- at least not if you want it to be realistic and believable!

[Commenter 42]

...
I agree with this completely.


April should be Japanese. The end.

[CyberCubed]

April is a white girl with brown or red hair. That is all.

[Commenter 42]

April is a month in the year.

Over and out.

[The Big Bad]

Anybody watching the new Preacher series, on AMC? It's based on the 90's comic book of the same name, and one of the best things about it is Tulip O'Hare (https://youtu.be/cZ_XlkrtqIo?t=1m50s) played by Ethiopian-Irish actress Ruth Negga (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1550948/?ref_=nmmi_mi_nm).

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/Perez85/Ruth%20Negga%2001_zpsiaofly4x.jpg

(Black Irish people aren't a myth? ZOMG!!)


Anyways, the character was white in the original comics, and I'm super glad they didn't feel constrained by that, because Negga is amazing in the role--I can't find a clip of her whole introduction scene, where Tulip kills a man in a cornfield (https://youtu.be/J9WJmRxF0vg), is adorable with a couple of kids, cobbles together a bazooka everyday household objects and uses it to shoot down a helicopter, which is sad because everyone should see it. She is by far my top pick for an actress to play April, a role she is absolutely perfect for--at worst, she'd elevate an underwritten role and look hot while doing it; at best, with the right script to back her, she'd imbue April with the weight she has often been lacking in. And yet, Hollywood would never consider her--[ETA: or actresses like Candice Patton, Gina Rodríguez, or Freema Agyeman, all of which would be fantastic]--for the role, because they're stuck with their limited idea of who April should be. And that's one of the reasons this idea that April must absolutely always be white is actively harmful: it prevents people from seeing all the possibilities inherent in the character. And it's not limited entirely to acting, either--although intentionally shrinking one's potential pool of actors is a big enough issue in and of itself--but also to the characters as conceived as written.

2: More importantly, changing racial identity of a fictional character changes EVERYTHING about who that character IS!! Can't stress this enough. A black or Asian April would be VERY different from one whose roots are Irish or at least Caucasian. It changes how she grew up, her cultural background, literally EVERYTHING about her past. As a simple example, an Asian April would have grown up with Asian culture and history, with the expectations and familial hierarchy that goes with that. A Latina April would most likely have a large family and be Catholic, with all that those things imply. Changing her to a Middle Eastern or Indian woman would change her background and outlook even more! Why would anyone want to change who the character IS, by changing who they WERE?! I makes no sense at all, from a logical and story-telling standpoint. The way they are raised and taught, what expectations are put on them by friends and family as a child, EVERYTHING would change, making them that character IN NAME ONLY.

Let's say they're right--they're not, since people of color aren't stereotypes and can actually be diverse and have multiple dimensions--but let's actually go with a Latina April who has a large family and is Catholic: what exactly would be wrong with that? How does that prevent her from being the scientist or reporter or friend to the turtles? In fact, it actually makes her a more defined character than she often is! It gives writers far more to work with than "white woman with no context, who has X job because script". An April who is a devout Catholic and who suddenly has to deal with mutants altering her conceptions of the world and family is actually really interesting! Heck, boil down every version of April to a conceptual level, and she's easily the most interesting one! Or, to put it another way, what has April being white ever added to the character?

(And yes, one could in theory add similar contexts and dimensions to a white April. Very few incarnations have done so, resulting in many many versions of April, few, if any, which are anyone's favorite character in a particular version of the turtles. If making April a woman of color is what it takes to actually get writers to think about the character, then, by all means, bring it on.)

[neatoman]

Ruth... Negga... An actress of Ethiopian descent is named... Negga...

... That's a kind of funny coincidence but I won't try to make any puns about it, that would probably be a little too crude.

[plastroncafe]

What I wouldn't give for an interesting and competently written April.

But that would kind of require anyone involved with the franchise being capable of what is seemingly a Herculean effort.

[pferreira]

Ruth... Negga... An actress of Ethiopian descent is named... Negga...

... That's a kind of funny coincidence but I won't try to make any puns about it, that would probably be a little too crude.I had no idea she was playing that character. I would have liked to have seen a white blonde Tulip O'Hare. Oh well, maybe one day when they adapt the comics again. Dominic Cooper also looks wrong as The Preacher, too thin.

[Ninturtle]

Anybody watching the new Preacher series, on AMC? It's based on the 90's comic book of the same name, and one of the best things about it is Tulip O'Hare (https://youtu.be/cZ_XlkrtqIo?t=1m50s) played by Ethiopian-Irish actress Ruth Negga (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1550948/?ref_=nmmi_mi_nm).

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/Perez85/Ruth%20Negga%2001_zpsiaofly4x.jpg

(Black Irish people aren't a myth? ZOMG!!)


Anyways, the character was white in the original comics, and I'm super glad they didn't feel constrained by that, because Negga is amazing in the role--I can't find a clip of her whole introduction scene, where Tulip kills a man in a cornfield (https://youtu.be/J9WJmRxF0vg), is adorable with a couple of kids, cobbles together a bazooka everyday household objects and uses it to shoot down a helicopter, which is sad because everyone should see it. She is by far my top pick for an actress to play April, a role she is absolutely perfect for--at worst, she'd elevate an underwritten role and look hot while doing it; at best, with the right script to back her, she'd imbue April with the weight she has often been lacking in. And yet, Hollywood would never consider her for the role, because they're stuck with their limited idea of who April should be. And that's one of the reasons this idea that April must absolutely always be white is actively harmful: it prevents people from seeing all the possibilities inherent in the character. And it's not limited entirely to acting, either--although intentionally shrinking one's potential pool of actors is a big enough issue in and of itself--but also to the characters as conceived as written.



Let's say they're right--they're not, since people of color aren't stereotypes and can actually be diverse and have multiple dimensions--but let's actually go with a Latina April who has a large family and is Catholic: what exactly would be wrong with that? How does that prevent her from being the scientist or reporter or friend to the turtles? In fact, it actually makes her a more defined character than she often is! It gives writers far more to work with than "white woman with no context, who has X job because script". An April who is a devout Catholic and who suddenly has to deal with mutants altering her conceptions of the world and family is actually really interesting! Heck, boil down every version of April to a conceptual level, and she's easily the most interesting one! Or, to put it another way, what has April being white ever added to the character?

(And yes, one could in theory add similar contexts and dimensions to a white April. Very few incarnations have done so, resulting in many many versions of April, few, if any, which are anyone's favorite character in a particular version of the turtles. If making April a woman of color is what it takes to actually get writers to think about the character, then, by all means, bring it on.)

But what does the race change of Tulip do for the characters except make her look less like her comic counter part?

[ToTheNines]

Everything Big Bad said. April has basically never been an interesting character, so I don't see why anyone would feel compelled to cling to any particular ethnicity for her.

[Candy Kappa]

But what does the race change of Tulip do for the characters except make her look less like her comic counter part?

She was the best actor for the job. ;)

[Ninturtle]

She was the best actor for the job. ;)

Just out of curiousity would you be okay if the character had started out black and made white for the show?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

I wonder how people would've reacted if Whoopi Goldberg was cast as April instead of Megan Fox in the PD movies.

[Commenter 42]

April should be a crusty loaf of bread that smells like Werther's Originals.

April should be a billionaire playboy who likes to dress up like a bat and punch poor people.

April should own a Tardis.

April should be the one sofa cushion that never stays on the sofa.

April should be the son of an immigrant factory worker who is now an technology mogul and sold her first internet companies for over $350 million dollars.

[plastroncafe]

Technodrome Forums: Come for the hyperbole, but stay for the false equivalencies.

This is a jar full of raisins... (http://timemachineyeah.tumblr.com/post/58648290519/this-is-a-jar-full-of-major-characters)

Honestly, all of the above suggestions are way better than, "April is a drawing."

[Commenter 42]

April is the pen, the paper, and everything in-between.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Technodrome Forums: Come for the hyperbole, but stay for the false equivalencies.

This is a jar full of raisins... (http://timemachineyeah.tumblr.com/post/58648290519/this-is-a-jar-full-of-major-characters)

Honestly, all of the above suggestions are way better than, "April is a drawing."

Fascinating. I really like that analogy; thank you, PC.

I'm taking that link over to my writing group to discuss with fellow writers... should be fun! :tgrin:

[Commenter 42]

yawn.

https://moonmetropolis.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/sjw-comic.jpg

[Candy Kappa]

April is love, April is life.

Wait, no... That's Shrek.

[plastroncafe]

There's just so little love for The Zeppos of fiction.
It's sad.

Doubly so in April's case, as she's the token female, her portrayals only serve to highlight further just how not good at their jobs some writers are.

[Commenter 42]

April is love, April is life.

Wait, no... That's Shrek.

:lol::lol:

April should be the sock I have in my hand, not the one I can't find right now.

If April's daughter is my daughter's mother, what am I to April?

[plastroncafe]

Dude, you've read these forums.
To most people here April already is the sock they have in their hands.

[Candy Kappa]

Eeeeeeeew... Too far, too far.

[Commenter 42]

Dude, you've read these forums.
To most people here April already is the sock they have in their hands.

I cracked you. I win.

Now if you can just admit that Apes are people too, we can go back to being besties.

[ticktack]

Out of the theme, but a bit revelant.
Whoopie is a fighter. For example she showed me that being black & a woman won't limint you to wear as a Santa (which was for men) and give gifs (aka to make kids happy). Her appearance is overall positive. Horray to her. :D

Edit:
And she already broke a rule with Burnes to Bernadette, I think that didn't harm anybody and she's not only what she is with DNA, she is unique, has her own fiery spirit and is an iconic actor.

[plastroncafe]

I cracked you. I win.

Now if you can just admit that Apes are people too, we can go back to being besties.

http://i.imgur.com/qOcCwF9.gif

[Commenter 42]

http://i.imgur.com/qOcCwF9.gif

April is the fault in all our stars.

April hates the Player, and the game.

[snake]

This thread is sh*t. This last page of everyone trying to be funny is a new low for the forum.

[Commenter 42]

April thinks Snake is too self serious, and needs a hug.

[oldmanwinters]

This last page of everyone trying to be funny is a new low for the forum.

I still kinda like my usage of meme from 2014:
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1303351&postcount=144

Plastroncafe laid the seed for this downward spiral, I suppose.

:tlol::tcool:

[Powder]

This thread is sh*t. This last page of everyone trying to be funny is a new low for the forum.

That's all this forum is anymore, it's like Reddit at it's worst. Everybody wants to win the approval of their peers, be funny, thought of as a "personality", etc.

[Commenter 42]

I still kinda like my usage of meme from 2014:
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1303351&postcount=144

Plastroncafe laid the seed for this downward spiral, I suppose.

:tlol::tcool:

Pretty much.

Next up, they've white washed the spider emblem, and I'm mad as hell!!!
http://game2day.org/uploads/userfiles/images/spider-man_ps4-e3.png

[thundermaster612]

Pretty much.

Next up, they've white washed the spider emblem, and I'm mad as hell!!!
http://game2day.org/uploads/userfiles/images/spider-man_ps4-e3.png

What the hell?

Well actually, it kind of looks... nice I guess....

[Commenter 42]

Wow...

Lol...

Ok then.

April is a girl. The girl is no one. A girl has no name.

[Cryomancer]

Wow...

Lol...

Ok then.

April is a girl. The girl is no one. A girl has no name.

April already tried being Nobody.

[The Big Bad]

But what does the race change of Tulip do for the characters except make her look less like her comic counter part?

Not having read the original Preacher and only having watched the first two episodes, I can't answer this question in terms of A, B, or C changes. Assuming, though, that the two versions are essentially the same character--and if they're not, that has nothing to do with Negga herself and everything to do with the writing--then it means that she gets played by an actress who is magnetic, gorgeous, can sell all the aspects of the character as belonging to a single coherent person, and has given the show a whole lot of its positive buzz; Tulip so far has been the one thing everyone can agree works about the show. Is that somehow not enough?

If not, then I'll add that, all else being equal, there's more moreness to show Tulip than there would have been were she being played by, say, the also-magnetic Charlize Theron, simply because there aren't a whole lot of characters like Tulip who are also Women of Color. Popular culture isn't exactly tripping over itself to argue that black women can be badass, gorgeous, vulnerable, or three-dimensional (and when it does, it then does its best to keep these women at the margins until they can be killed off) so when it happens, it feels special. She feels more badass, original, interesting etc., than she would have otherwise felt, and stands out in a world of white female badasses. This isn't because of anything inherently racial, but because of the way the world deals with race, which is not the same thing. There's a world in which the difference would be merely cosmetic, but that world is not this one.

[plastroncafe]

I still kinda like my usage of meme from 2014:
http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=1303351&postcount=144

Plastroncafe laid the seed for this downward spiral, I suppose.

:tlol::tcool:

My heart leaps like gazelle!

[Prowler]

That's all this forum is anymore, it's like Reddit at it's worst. Everybody wants to win the approval of their peers, be funny, thought of as a "personality", etc.
Just be thankful that this place does not have a reputation/like/up-downvoting system... yet.

[pferreira]

I wonder how people would've reacted if Whoopi Goldberg was cast as April instead of Megan Fox in the PD movies.At least it would have better acting.

[plastroncafe]

I do love me some Whoopi.

[Powder]

From the Instagram of Ciro Nieli (Nick series creator):

"my earliest #nicktmnt animation development notebook when April was still a black girl and Mikey's cat was named Fellini. Sept2009! I'll share more pages from this book eventually. I would love to draw a one shot comic story someday with all my pure unused TMNT ideas"

https://scontent-iad3-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/13534044_1718101385123469_863892185_n.jpg