David Ayer and Margot Robbie helming all female villian DC movie [Archive] - Page 2

Leo656

01-09-2020, 09:10 PM

I'd pitch a Trilogy of Babs movies. First movie would be the whole origin and coming up as Batgirl, second movie would go all "Empire Strikes Back" and have her get crippled by The Joker at the end, in some series of events loosely-inspired by "The Killing Joke" (they're never gonna adapt it into a movie as-is, anyway, so borrowing and reworking some concepts from it and using different framing context would be fine). It'd probably end with some kind of cliffhanger like her still in the hospital unsure if she could ever walk again. And then the third one would be "The Rise of Oracle".

Aside from just being "Batgirl", the thing that always made Barbara Gordon so appealing to me is that her character had this whole giant arc, from Batman Fangirl to Above-Average Vigilante Crimefighter, to Joker Victim to Paraplegic to, ultimately, One-Of-The-Most-Important-DCU-Characters-Despite-Being-In-A-Wheelchair. She was a rare non-static character who went through a lot of trials and changes; one could argue whether she was just sh*t on by the writers when they couldn't think of anyone else to torture or put through the wringer, but regardless of the reasoning, her character became infinitely more interesting because of it, way more interesting (and important!) than when she was "Just Batgirl".

So, if I had my way, I'd wanna see three movies that explored Barbara's entire arc. In a perfect world she'd show up as Batgirl in a few other connected movies before getting shot at the end of the second one, but once she became Oracle I wouldn't go back on her being paralyzed. It really bothered me how the comics did that, but that's a whole other story.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-09-2020, 09:14 PM

So, if I had my way, I'd wanna see three movies that explored Barbara's entire arc. In a perfect world she'd show up as Batgirl in a few other connected movies before getting shot at the end of the second one, but once she became Oracle I wouldn't go back on her being paralyzed. It really bothered me how the comics did that, but that's a whole other story.

Agreed. And the "Oracle" movie would still be Batgirl, because it should also show her mentoring the next Batgirl... Cassandra Cain. Or if Cassie already showed up, Stephanie Brown. Ideally both eventually.

Leo656

01-09-2020, 09:25 PM

Maybe partly that. I'd still want the focus of the third to be primarily about Babs overcoming her newfound disability to cement the fact that she's an important part of the DCU whether or not she can walk. I'd want her to still be the primary star - the trilogy as I see it would be more about Babs as a person rather than "Batgirl" being the focus - but I think it could also simultaneously set up the next Batgirl movie organically, if handled right.

Like, maybe along the way, Babs gets in a situation where she needs someone to do her "legwork", so to speak, and through happenstance encounters the Cassie/Stephanie character, and they partner up for the remainder of the movie. Like Oracle does the intel and does the planning the other one actually executes the "mission" stuff. Stuff happens, blabbity-blah, and then in the final scene Babs gifts her the Batgirl costume and says something like, "Now the real training begins", roll credits. So you've done three good Barbara Gordon movies and wrapped up by setting up the next three Batgirl movies with a new protagonist, while ostensibly keeping Babs around in a supporting role.

That's one way to do it. I wouldn't mind using the third movie as a way to set up the next Batgirl, but I would still want 90% of the focus to be on her. I wouldn't want it to feel at all like "Exit, Stage Left" or anything. The whole point should be to establish that she's still really important whether she's Batgirl or not, can walk or not, and that she's not going anywhere or being "replaced" because now she's "broken". But in theory it could hit everything it needed to, including setting up the next series, it would just take a really tight script and a very careful hand.

Sumac

01-09-2020, 11:02 PM

I checked tumblr, twitter and resetera and they all love the trailer. I guess it’s targeting a specific group of people.
Might as well ask North Koreans if they love Kin Jung Fat.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-09-2020, 11:11 PM

Leo656

01-09-2020, 11:15 PM

Lady Blackhawk, you Philistine. :lol:

ZariusTwo

01-10-2020, 08:28 AM

once she became Oracle I wouldn't go back on her being paralyzed. It really bothered me how the comics did that, but that's a whole other story.

Yeah, at the end of the Oracle movie you should just use the ending of Nightwing/Oracle Convergence, that's the end of Dick and Babs' story

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-10-2020, 09:58 AM

Lady Blackhawk, you Philistine. :lol:

That's her! :tlol: I dunno, she never seemed to do a whole hell of a lot in the Simone Birds of Prey run. Fly the aircraft, look cute in a cap, that was it.

Autbot_Benz

01-10-2020, 11:19 AM

Being on another forum just watching people actually excited for this movie saying it looks amazing makes my eyes roll.

Andrew NDB

01-10-2020, 12:03 PM

Being on another forum just watching people actually excited for this movie saying it looks amazing makes my eyes roll.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of them are paid shills and PLANTS.

ZariusTwo

01-11-2020, 04:07 AM

Film's running length is 108 minutes, making it the shortest of the current batch of DC movies

https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a30474994/birds-of-prey-shortest-worlds-of-dc-movie-runtime/

Leo656

01-11-2020, 01:27 PM

Way too many characters and things to juggle within that length of time.

Jeebus. I'm betting that this thing is gonna be like Powerpuff Girls. Just wall-to-wall "zany" with no room to breathe. Blech.

Candy Kappa

01-11-2020, 02:10 PM

After BvS (and suicide squad, justice league... rewatching MoS) I could use another fun flick as a cleanser, so I don't mind a wall-to-wall zany movie.

Warhorse

01-12-2020, 10:09 AM

Why all the crying over this stupid film? Harley, Black Canary, and Huntress?

F list characters, who gives a ****? It was never going to be a film for men.

Won't be much of a movie for most women as well, who tend to be drawn to either a strong male hero we can google at (like Thor, Steve Rogers, even Han Solo or young Obi Wan Kenobi) or some kind of romance or forbidden love thing that can be intriguing (one of the major draws of Twilight and Hunger Games)

Sumac

01-12-2020, 11:10 AM

Won't be much of a movie for most women as well, who tend to be drawn to either a strong male hero we can google at (like Thor, Steve Rogers, even Han Solo or young Obi Wan Kenobi) or some kind of romance or forbidden love thing that can be intriguing (one of the major draws of Twilight and Hunger Games)
Indeed. It's a movie produced by delusional committee, who will pat itself on the back for "bringing diversity" and "strong female characters" as if they were the first ones to do so (or the best). Like, I think, some people insisted that Captain Marvel was a "milestone for the female superheroes movie". And when it's fail (if it is fail) the will blame "evil white men", who somehow didn't allow women to enjoy this "masterpiece".

This dance was done so much, that I can't even fathom, why anyone in Hollywood still waste money on this ****. Unless some people really believe this crap or launder money via moviemaking.

Warhorse

01-12-2020, 01:04 PM

Indeed. It's a movie produced by delusional committee, who will pat itself on the back for "bringing diversity" and "strong female characters" as if they were the first ones to do so (or the best). Like, I think, some people insisted that Captain Marvel was a "milestone for the female superheroes movie". And when it's fail (if it is fail) the will blame "evil white men", who somehow didn't allow women to enjoy this "masterpiece".

This dance was done so much, that I can't even fathom, why anyone in Hollywood still waste money on this ****. Unless some people really believe this crap or launder money via moviemaking.

First, I do have a family member who is all for this stuff. She also seems to not be able to come to a decision on her own without first flying to her phone and checking in with a group of people. It's like she is conforming her very existence to fit in with this small niche of people, and it has me flabberghasted.

And second, I definitely think there is some money laundering going on. I was dragged to see Captain Marvel by the same family member from above, and when picking out seats from Fandango, it was irksome to see the best seats were taken. Finally got to the theater and was a bit ticked to see all of those taken seats were empty. Just before the movie started, I checked back to Fandango to see if the seats were still purchased, and they were. All the center seats, but in the end, only 6 people were inside the whole theater for the entire duration of the film. Shortly after this, I started seeing reports going up about the same thing all over the country.

I do think the numbers for Captain Marvel were faked. I went to Black Panther 3 times in the theater, and that movie was legitimately packed and had quite the buzz, but I saw or felt nothing like that for Captain Marvel.

CyberCubed

01-12-2020, 04:45 PM

The sales tickets and rotten scores are not influenced by Disney. Star Wars Rise of the Skywalker currently has a 53% as of this moment on rotten by critics, if you thought Disney wanted their last big Star Wars movie with an awful 53% score, even lower than Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones have there, then of course we are all wrong.

And I thought the Solo movie only having a 71% on rotten was as low as a Star Wars movie under Disney would score, boy were we all wrong.

Sumac

01-13-2020, 09:43 AM

First, I do have a family member who is all for this stuff. She also seems to not be able to come to a decision on her own without first flying to her phone and checking in with a group of people. It's like she is conforming her very existence to fit in with this small niche of people, and it has me flabberghasted.

And second, I definitely think there is some money laundering going on. I was dragged to see Captain Marvel by the same family member from above, and when picking out seats from Fandango, it was irksome to see the best seats were taken. Finally got to the theater and was a bit ticked to see all of those taken seats were empty. Just before the movie started, I checked back to Fandango to see if the seats were still purchased, and they were. All the center seats, but in the end, only 6 people were inside the whole theater for the entire duration of the film. Shortly after this, I started seeing reports going up about the same thing all over the country.

I do think the numbers for Captain Marvel were faked. I went to Black Panther 3 times in the theater, and that movie was legitimately packed and had quite the buzz, but I saw or felt nothing like that for Captain Marvel.
They are rumors about Disney mass-buying tickets to their own movies, to inflate numbers. Maybe those are not rumors.

Sad to hear about your relative. Such "conforming" existence is just a cut above of being a vegetable.

Autbot_Benz

01-15-2020, 09:35 PM

BIRDS OF PREY Cast Cover Glamour Magazine; Discuss Not Having To Worry About The "Male Gaze"

While speaking to Glamour Magazine, Robbie, Rosie Perez, Jurnee Smollett-Bell, and Mary Elizabeth Winstead were all in agreement that coming to work on a movie with a female director, writer and producer was a most welcome change.

“The female gaze just happened inherently because there were mainly women making the decisions,” Robbie says. “We were all just picking what we thought was cool.”

You're not scrutinized with, ‘How can she look hotter?’ Which is an experience I've definitely had in the past,” adds Winstead. “It's not like, ‘Let's just put her in that because her ass is great,’ which I know we've all experienced,” Perez weighs in.

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/birds_of_prey/birds-of-prey-cast-cover-glamour-magazine-discuss-not-having-to-worry-about-the-male-gaze-a172734

****ing Men am I right :roll:

TommyT

01-15-2020, 09:45 PM

Seems the investors learned nothing from Charlie’s Angels.

There are, of course, female, hardcore feminist, comic fans, ones who are sick of men. It’s a marginalized subset of a marginalized group of a portion of the population, but still...
They didn’t support the C.A. reboot, will they come out for this?

I don’t think anybody looked at the last Suicide squad film, and immediately thought the problem was toxic masculinity.

Hopefully they’ll make a film for the half black half Latino transgender army vets with Lyme disease and put mayo on their fries.

Multi million dollar films, should be built around very specific demos. It’s just good business.

Sumac

01-16-2020, 12:47 PM

It's like those actresses didn't get where they got due to their looks, besides acting talent. But continue to blame men...

Autbot_Benz

01-19-2020, 06:55 PM

BOP writer Gail Simone wants to write a Spinoff movie for fake black canary.

https://comicbook.com/dc/2020/01/19/birds-of-prey-movie-spinoff-black-canary-jurnee-smollett-bell/

turtle1237

01-19-2020, 07:58 PM

It's like those actresses didn't get where they got due to their looks, besides acting talent. But continue to blame men...

Margot Robbie look great in Booty Shorts as Harley Quinn in the first movie lol. The trailer got my attention. But yeah I am part to blame for Suicided Squad getting a sequel, sort of lol. They knew they had a bad movie, and they used booty shorts and Will Smith to sale the film lol.

Sumac

01-20-2020, 10:37 AM

BOP writer Gail Simone wants to write a Spinoff movie for fake black canary.

https://comicbook.com/dc/2020/01/19/birds-of-prey-movie-spinoff-black-canary-jurnee-smollett-bell/
Will they make a spin-off for a ChubBatgirl? :roll:

Autbot_Benz

01-27-2020, 12:50 PM

Ewan hints that Black Mask and Victor Zaz are gay and in a complicated relationship

https://comicbook.com/dc/2020/01/26/birds-of-prey-ewan-mcgregor-black-mask-gay-fans-angry/

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-27-2020, 01:15 PM

"Less PC, more DC."

:tlol:

Kudos to whoever came up with that tag. You speak wise words, sir or madam.

Autbot_Benz

01-27-2020, 02:31 PM

More Stupid from Margot Robbie

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/birds_of_prey/birds-of-prey-black-canary-actress-jurnee-smollett-bell-was-inspired-by-injustice-2-a172930

She goes on to reveal that the film was intially going to be based on Gotham City Sirens, but the crew felt that Catwoman and Poison Ivy were already iconic in their own right and having only three members in a team was limiting. They chose Birds of Prey to shine a spotlight on lesser known female superheroes.

Black Canary is not a lesser known female hero she is a member of The Justice League Birds of Prey was on the Cartoons of Justice League Unlimited Batman Brave and The Bold she has been a mainstay on Arrow Season 3-8 and the spinoff series Also in tons of comics. Same goes for huntress.

raph27

01-28-2020, 01:13 PM

Black Canary is not a lesser known female hero she is a member of The Justice League Birds of Prey was on the Cartoons of Justice League Unlimited Batman Brave and The Bold she has been a mainstay on Arrow Season 3-8 and the spinoff series Also in tons of comics. Same goes for huntress.

I have to disagree here, thinking about a general audience perspective. Most crowds don't know any DC characters who aren't the core Justice League or Batman villains.

Then again, I don't know what that talk is about because from all we've seen about this movie so far, it looks like everyone besides Harley are just women in street clothes? Unless that's a big third act reveal?

I'm torn on this movie. The trailers have actually impressed me so far, but I am concerned about the lack of "hero" identity from everyone. How is DC putting Cassandra Cain in a movie and not having her be Batgirl?

Coola Yagami

01-28-2020, 08:10 PM

I have to disagree here, thinking about a general audience perspective. Most crowds don't know any DC characters who aren't the core Justice League or Batman villains.

Then again, I don't know what that talk is about because from all we've seen about this movie so far, it looks like everyone besides Harley are just women in street clothes? Unless that's a big third act reveal?

I'm torn on this movie. The trailers have actually impressed me so far, but I am concerned about the lack of "hero" identity from everyone. How is DC putting Cassandra Cain in a movie and not having her be Batgirl?
The trailer actually gave me the opposite direction. It's all Harley, the BoP will.... Kinda sorta be there but not really.

I don't know why they didn't have the balls to just make it a Harley movie outright, maybe with Ivy. They didn't need the BoP.

Andrew NDB

01-28-2020, 08:34 PM

They should have spun a BoP movie out of a Batgirl movie. Or just feature Batgirl in a Batman movie and then throw her into Birds of Prey, no solo Batgirl movie.

Anything but this.

Autbot_Benz

01-28-2020, 08:54 PM

Social Media embargo is lifted tomorrow.

Autbot_Benz

01-28-2020, 11:46 PM

"Whilst I was researching the character I started to read Birds of Prey and first I fell in love with Huntress, and I started looking into all of that. I was like, ‘Wow, there’s so many cool female DC characters and no one knows anything about any of them!’

https://i.imgur.com/mIKkBLu.gif

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/birds_of_prey/birds-of-prey-star-margot-robbie-reveals-why-she-chose-that-movie-over-gotham-city-sirens-a172944

Leo656

01-29-2020, 04:36 AM

Gotta love how "I never heard of a thing" = "Nobody has ever heard of a thing."

Coola Yagami

01-29-2020, 08:33 AM

Gotta love how "I never heard of a thing" = "Nobody has ever heard of a thing."

"Wow there's so many cool DC females...... For me to ruin with modern day overly feminist PC SJW agendas!".

Sumac

01-29-2020, 10:52 AM

They chose Birds of Prey to take a dump on lesser known female superheroes.
Fixed.

Though, I might agree somewhat - Black Canary and Huntress are not the household names, when it comes to general public. And, sadly, this movie might make it so it will stay that way.

Autbot_Benz

01-29-2020, 12:41 PM

Fixed.

Though, I might agree somewhat - Black Canary and Huntress are not the household names, when it comes to general public. And, sadly, this movie might make it so it will stay that way.

I agree and that's my one real gripe with this movie. I am a huge Black Canary fan. Mainly from the cartoons and Arrow. It just pisses me off how she is being handled so terribly in this movie. Mainly the random race change and the fact she doesn't look like Black Canary.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-29-2020, 12:53 PM

I've really lost all respect for Margot Robbie because of this film.

She was critical to getting it made, and she wanted this? Why not a legit adaptation of Birds of Prey involving Harley, or a Gotham City Sirens?

Infuriating.

Candy Kappa

01-29-2020, 01:27 PM

I am a huge Black Canary fan. Mainly from the cartoons and Arrow.

Eh, with the cluster**** that is Arrow Black Canary it'll be easy to digest a different take.

Andrew NDB

01-29-2020, 01:53 PM

She was critical to getting it made, and she wanted this?

That's a good point. They would have done whatever kind of new Harley movie she wanted.

Autbot_Benz

01-29-2020, 02:03 PM

First Clip from the movie.

qXZLgB6FXZU

Cool seeing Cass Cain a trained Assassin and one of the batgirls cowering in fear.

Sumac

01-29-2020, 04:08 PM

I agree and that's my one real gripe with this movie. I am a huge Black Canary fan. Mainly from the cartoons and Arrow. It just pisses me off how she is being handled so terribly in this movie. Mainly the random race change and the fact she doesn't look like Black Canary.
I agree, this could have been DC's movie to introduce public to the new heroes and instead good version of those heroes audience will see...this.

AquaParade

01-29-2020, 04:12 PM

Wow. The reactions for this are coming in super positive so far. Honestly y didn’t expect that.

I’m not going to try and find some lame excuse as to why critics are liking it, so I may end up eating crow and checking this out on home video. I still may dislike it, going by the trailers, but the action scenes and Black Mask are being heavily praised and that intrigues me.

Andrew NDB

01-29-2020, 04:25 PM

Wow. The reactions for this are coming in super positive so far. Honestly y didn’t expect that.

From critics or actual audiences? Because the critics will love this, I'm sure. They always were going to. No way they won't reward something as... ah, important as this movie. I expect to see lots of words in reviews like "diversity" and "empowering."

Autbot_Benz

01-29-2020, 04:26 PM

Autbot_Benz

01-29-2020, 04:27 PM

John Rocha
@TheRochaSays
·
4m
#BirdsofPrey will absolutely satisfy the #DC fans! #MargotRobbie expertly gives depth & humanity (amidst her maniacal glee) to the lovable yet deadly #HarleyQuinn . The story gets a bit clumsy but this is a bad ass ladies kicking butt and bonding film. It’s a home run hit there!

Leo656

01-29-2020, 04:31 PM

From critics or actual audiences? Because the critics will love this, I'm sure. They always were going to. No way they won't reward something as... ah, important as this movie. I expect to see lots of words in reviews like "diversity" and "empowering."

Not to mention over-the-top goofy. That's mandatory in a post-Ragnarok world. I called that back when the reviews for that flick came out and almost all of them said "EVERY single comic book movie needs to be Exactly Like This from now on."

So yeah, one part "Important Diversity Movie" and one part "This Is All Just Some Dumb Bullsh*t Anyway." Casuals and critics will eat it up with a spoon.

My wife really wants to see it just for Robbie as Harley, but even though I was one of the six people who thought Squad was Just Fine, this looks putrid to me and I have no desire to see it.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-29-2020, 04:42 PM

Not to mention over-the-top goofy. That's mandatory in a post-Ragnarok world. I called that back when the reviews for that flick came out and almost all of them said "EVERY single comic book movie needs to be Exactly Like This from now on."

So yeah, one part "Important Diversity Movie" and one part "This Is All Just Some Dumb Bullsh*t Anyway." Casuals and critics will eat it up with a spoon.

My wife really wants to see it just for Robbie as Harley, but even though I was one of the six people who thought Squad was Just Fine, this looks putrid to me and I have no desire to see it.

It's just really weird how Robbie was the best part of Suicide Squad, which had some serious flaws but we can live with it... and she goes to this.

And yet she had the power to do something truly special and just as empowering, and ALSO comic accurate.

No Poison Ivy? No Catwoman? No Barbara Gordon? No accurate Cassandra Cain?

I really, really don't get it.

Leo656

01-29-2020, 04:56 PM

Clearly. NONE of that matters anymore.

Look, people can like or not like the tone of Ragnarok, that's a personal thing, but objectively, that movie has as much to do with the Thor from the comic books as my ass does. It might be a fun romp but it is not a very good representation of the world or characters from the comics.

Problem is, nobody cares about that kinda thing, as proven by the overwhelming response to that movie. Any super-hero movie HAS to be a "fun romp" now; in fact, the closer it skews to the source material, the worse it is. "Just be goofy and zany." Once that "comic book movie" that had nothing at all to do with the comic book made a billion dollars, all bets were off going forward.

I'd be completely neutral about Ragnarok as its own movie; it's not the movie I would ever have made for Thor but if people like it, then good for them. My problem is, "They ALL have to be silly, goofy movies now" as a hard rule, whether it fits or not, is accurate or not, makes sense for the material or not. Kinda like how even though I appreciate Toy Story for what it is, I'm very resentful of the franchise for single-handedly killing off hand-drawn animation.

It is what it is. Good ol' WB, taking the wrong lessons from everything and taking things way too far in the other direction, just because "It worked for Those Other Guys!" Sigh.

AquaParade

01-29-2020, 05:50 PM

Problem is, nobody cares about that kinda thing, as proven by the overwhelming response to that movie. Any super-hero movie HAS to be a "fun romp" now; in fact, the closer it skews to the source material, the worse it is. "Just be goofy and zany."

I'd be completely neutral about Ragnarok as its own movie; it's not the movie I would ever have made for Thor but if people like it, then good for them. My problem is, "They ALL have to be silly, goofy movies now" as a hard rule, whether it fits or not, is accurate or not, makes sense for the material or not. Kinda like how even though I appreciate Toy Story for what it is, I'm very resentful of the franchise for single-handedly killing off hand-drawn animation.

I don't feel like every movie tries to be a fun romp now. There's plenty of variety. Between Joker, Infinity War/Endgame, Deadpool, Spider-Verse, Black Widow, etc, we are getting different flavors.
Not at all like the Toy Story scenario.

I can understand your problems with Ragnarok itself. I enjoy it, but when it comes to Thor, I have little reverence for the comics, aside from Jason Aaron's run (which I do enjoy), so that makes me a bit more flexible with the tone of the movie. I can definitely see how it'd be annoying for someone more interested in Thor as a mighty and mythic character as seen in many Marvel comics.

Leo656

01-29-2020, 05:56 PM

AquaParade

01-29-2020, 06:10 PM

Joker's an outlier. Let's see if any more movies like that start creeping out before we declare that it broke the mold. It also got a very mixed reaction across the board.

People said "Logan" would also be That Movie, and we're still waiting for those "grown-up", R-Rated comic book films that were supposed to all follow in its critically-acclaimed wake. And that was years ago already. Thus, "Joker" is an outlier until proven otherwise.

The Media said "all comic book movies need to be Silly, Zany, Over-The-Top Fun" after Ragnarok. Almost every review I read contains some variation of the phrase. Thus, they will reward films that adhere to this mold and vilify ones that don't. It's easy to see WHY this so-called "Birds Of prey" movie is what it is. "Fidelity doesn't matter so long as it's wacky."

Their game, their rules.

It got a mixed reaction but it made a billion dollars and won a truckload of awards so the negative attention is essentially negligent in terms of future trends. The money talks louder than twitter. The point is that it came after Ragnarok, and doesn't fit the description of "all comic book films needs to be zany now because of Ragnarok".

I wouldn't say Joker broke the mold because I don't believe Ragnarok created that mold. Like I mentioned, I feel we are getting a pretty healthy variety of comic book films and it doesn't feel at all to me that Ragnarok was a game-changer. It did it's own thing successfully but it wasn't a trendsetter within its genre the same way Toy Story was by any stretch.

Btw - Are we still "waiting for those 'grown-up', R-Rated comic book films that were supposed to all follow in its critically-acclaimed wake' ?? I mean, Deadpool really broke the R-rated mold at first and allowed Logan to happen, so there's that to consider. That all led to second helpings with Deadpool 2. And We got Joker not much long after. Now Birds of Prey is rated R, if I recall. So in terms of R-rated adult fare, yeah, the trend has been set in motion and lives alongside and outside of Ragnarok's bubble of influence. I think that further proves the point that Ragnarok didn't swallow the entire genre in it's blackhole of zany influence.

Andrew NDB

01-29-2020, 06:15 PM

It got a mixed reaction but it made a billion dollars and won a truckload of awards so the negative attention is essentially negligent in terms of future trends.

What about something like BvS? It almost made a billion dollars (more than "Man of Steel," even), yet reaction to it terrified WB so much they reshot like 90% of JL and shot their whole DCEU in the foot right there and then?

AquaParade

01-29-2020, 06:22 PM

What about something like BvS? It almost made a billion dollars (more than "Man of Steel," even), yet reaction to it terrified WB so much they reshot like 90% of JL and shot their whole DCEU in the foot right there and then?

The reaction to Joker and BvS isn't comparable.

Joker caused controversy, but don't confuse that with poor reception.
Joker is beloved. Yes, it's hated as well, but it is beloved. With critics and fans.

You can't say the same for BvS. And it's worth mentioning that BvS made a good chunk less than Joker on a much heavier budget, marketing campaign, and the advantage of being the first ever Batman versus Superman movie. Honestly, that films reception was such a trainwreck, I don't even know where to begin. And I like it.

Andrew NDB

01-29-2020, 06:25 PM

The reaction to Joker and BvS isn't comparable.

Joker caused controversy, but don't confuse that with poor reception.
Joker is beloved. Yes, it's hated as well, but it is beloved. With critics and fans.

You can't say the same for BvS. And it's worth mentioning that BvS made a good chunk less than Joker on a much heavier budget and marketing campaign. Honestly, that films reception was such a trainwreck, I don't even know where to begin. And I liked it.

I'm talking more about it compared to "Thor: Ragnarok."

Leo656

01-29-2020, 06:26 PM

BvS is actually a good example of how the closer you get to the comic books, the worse off you are box-office and PR-wise.

The DCU on the printed page has been a PG-13/R-Rated universe for 30-odd years. People who read the actual comics can recognize the many ways in which BvS is, technically, the most comic-accurate comic book movie ever made (aside from Watchmen, obviously). BUT. A bunch of people who only know the DCU from the PG-rated cartoon shows they grew up with thought that it was too unfamiliar and thus took a sh*t on it for "having the wrong tone". And as we've seen, you can explain over and over again WHY it's a faithful movie, but it ultimately doesn't matter. It simply wasn't designed to be a crowd-pleasing romp. That's actually where the first seeds of, "These people wear CAPES, how can anyone take this stuff seriously?' were planted.

"I don't care if it's accurate to the comic books, I just want it to be FUN." We've seen/heard it all a thousand times. That's the mindset people have about comic book movies. And that's why I'm not excited for any of them going forward.

As Linkara once more or less said, "I actually like the comic books, and I'd much rather read those again for the hundredth time than sit through a watered-down and unrecognizable movie or TV show that pretends to be based on the thing that I like but shares almost no similarity to it beyond a name."

People don't have to feel the same way, but that's where I'm at.

(Back to Topic) And it's why I plan to skip this trainwreck. It sh*ts all over a bunch of stuff I like, all in the name of "Being a fun, wacky romp."

AquaParade

01-29-2020, 06:31 PM

I'm talking more about it compared to "Thor: Ragnarok."

Could you clarify if you get chance? It's probably my tired brain, but I am misunderstanding your post.

Leo656

01-29-2020, 06:39 PM

I think Andrew means how something can do "Fairly OK" at the box office but still get torpedoed because it wasn't crowd-pleasing enough.
------------------

I mean, look, it's not an exact science, and I admit that. "Shazam!" didn't do all that fantastic even though the commercials made it look like the zany and wacky crowd-pleaser people claim they want from a DC film. I'm guessing that the word-of-mouth about the darker scenes kept more people from seeing it, but even that's just a guess. Bottom line, they marketed it as a romp and it still only did Just OK. So it's obviously not cut-and-dry.

I'm just saying, "People don't care if these movies are faithful, so long as they're goofy and crammed with jokes" is A Thing in general right now. Someone asked out loud WHY Birds Of Prey has to be sh*tty and ignore its own source material, the simple answer is, "Because 'Ragnarok' was a huge hit despite disavowing its source material, and all WB knows how to do is copy others' success."

No, it's not an exact science and every rule has exceptions. But if there's One Simple Answer, that's it. That's all I'm saying.

AquaParade

01-29-2020, 06:42 PM

I got the feeling that Birds of Prey was essentially trying to be Deadpool for girls, as opposed to following in Ragnarok's footsteps. I suppose that just comes down to personal interpretation.

Leo656

01-29-2020, 06:48 PM

Maybe a little of Column A and a little from Column B.

Deadpool was at least a little comic book accurate, though. I was specifically replying to, "Why does BOP have to take such a giant dump on its own source material?". Deadpool made changes but was still fairly accurate. Ragnarok has nothing to do with the Thor comics, thus I feel that particular movie and BOP have more in common, along with the fact that Being Zany is the primary mission statement with all else being way down the list as a priority.

Just to clarify.

Autbot_Benz

01-30-2020, 12:36 PM

AquaParade

01-30-2020, 12:41 PM

I'm more into the idea of seeing Poison Ivy star in her own horror film. It'd actually be fun to have Gotham PD and even Batman on the outskirts of the story. Focus on other characters so when Batman appears it is little more than a shadow. We don't even need to see Bruce Wayne. Now I'm getting carried away.

Sumac

01-30-2020, 12:59 PM

There is a difference between mature dark movie and dour pretentious mess.

MOS and BVS were not mature, if anything they were immature; an idea of 14 year old of what dark and mature movie is.

Snyder never was able to tell a properly mature story and its hard to believe he really understands DC characters, especially in lieu of his comments about "how it would have been cool if Bruce Wayne was raped in the jail". He thinks that edgy and gritty equals mature. And this guy was responsible for the movie and universe about greatest and most inspiring superheroes? L ****ing O L.

He is not better than infamous Peters who cast Nicholas Cage as a Superman, because, he "had eyes of a killer".

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

01-30-2020, 01:28 PM

Margot wants to do a Harley Ivy team up movie after Birds of Prey

I shudder to think how bad Margot will get Ivy ruined

https://comicbook.com/dc/2020/01/30/birds-of-prey-margot-robbie-harley-poison-ivy-/

After the way this so-called Birds of Prey $hit is going, I've no interest in seeing Pamela Isley interpreted by Margot Robbie's team.

Ivy's one of my favorite non-Bat-family characters (i.e. not a Batgirl or a Robin). Do not fvck her up.

Autbot_Benz

01-30-2020, 01:32 PM

ZariusTwo

01-30-2020, 03:41 PM

I shudder to think how bad Margot will get Ivy ruined

DC have done a very good job of that themselves in the comics for several years now...(thanks a lot Tom King)

Sumac

01-30-2020, 04:31 PM

DC have done a very good job of that themselves in the comics for several years now...(thanks a lot Tom King)
I am dreading it, but can you elaborate, please?

Also, I won't put much stock into "first impressions". Let's see what general audience have to say.

Though, of course, if they decide that movie is **** you will see articles about "evil white men afraid of beautiful and stunning women as leads in the brave and stunning movies" and the like. :lol:

Leo656

01-30-2020, 05:27 PM

I know that public speaking isn't Zack Snyder's strong suit, but he never said "It would be cool to see Batman raped in prison." :roll:

He was giving an example as to how his idea of what is "dark" is probably much different from what other people see as "dark". Not the most articulate example, but a fair point. People said BvS was "too dark" when it simply wasn't, and he said, "What would be 'dark' in my mind would be something like this."

I know that reading comprehension isn't a valued skill anymore, but the amount of people who run with something out-of-context without even bothering to figure out what the guy was saying is pretty obnoxious.

It was an off-the-cuff remark to nonsense criticism. "You and I clearly disagree on what 'dark' means if you think anything in this movie is dark. Dark would be something like..." I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand for some people.

Coola Yagami

02-01-2020, 12:40 PM

They might just rename the move to be Harley Quinn the movie, which is basically what it was anyways. The BoP didn't even need to be in this.

LeotheLateBloomer

02-01-2020, 01:58 PM

It still looks like Suicide Squad but with a different team, same Quinn. Robbie went a bit over her head with pitching this project. Weird how she read some BoP comics, of which do not feature the character she plays as and wanted to do this instead of a solo Harley Quinn or Gotham City Sirens film.

Autbot_Benz

02-03-2020, 04:59 PM

Friday this movie is in theaters and will show general audiences the wrong not accurate Birds of Prey. While this movie tarnished Black Canary I am happy to have this beauty in my funko collection. Also the Review Embargo isn't lifted until the day before the movie comes out.

https://i.imgur.com/X4SzwK3.jpg

Sumac

02-03-2020, 07:08 PM

I am usually not big fan of funko pops (they look creepy to me), but this one is somewhat cute.

Autbot_Benz

02-04-2020, 08:00 PM

TommyT

02-04-2020, 09:52 PM

IMJ

02-04-2020, 10:04 PM

Margot Robbie wants men to watch female-led movies: 'They'd find a way to relate'

https://news.sky.com/story/margot-ro...elate-11921187

Robbie told Sky News she hopes men are open to seeing it.

She said: "I hope that guys watch films with female leads as much as they watch ones with male leads.

"'Cause I watch films despite the gender of the protagonist and find a way to relate just on y'know human behaviour.

"I feel if more men watch female-driven content they'd find a way to relate as well."

Nowadays I have zero tolerance for any agenda-loading at all. No one has an issue with female-led movies. Been watchin' 'em my whole life.

But I don't give a dollar anymore to any production where someone is making this BS their platform. It's like an entire generation of phonies who have never had to defend themselves, accomplish anything of merit, or fight for their families in basically any way; but have picked up these BS gauntlets as if they are the first people to recognize and take a stand on some kind of equality issue in the country and act as if those issues never promulgated and resolved in history before them.

And it's worse because it calls, by proxy, the entirety of normally operating society some kind of Luddites when in fact most of "us" haven't hurt anybody out of evil or bigotry a day in our lives. When in fact we've seen movies with strong female leads since at least as long as I can remember - hell even a crazy, 80's B-Movie like Eddie Murphy's The Golden Child had a female lead of stronger will, conviction and fighting ability than the main character did! If you can dig that deep and still find those themes, then what's going on nowadays is true ********.

Leo656

02-04-2020, 10:46 PM

Yeah, I seriously don't have any problem with female protagonists if the whole thing feels organic and not like it's being stuffed down my throat. There IS a big difference and most people can actually tell.

To borrow and paraphrase an immortal quote from Scott Hall about the difference between Good Wrestling and Bad Wrestling, "It's like watching Good Porn and Bad Porn. You maybe don't know WHY there's a difference or exactly what the difference is, but you can just tell that something ain't right about it."

Andrew NDB

02-04-2020, 10:56 PM

It's as simple as looking at it as weaponized art vs. art, I think. I'm vehemently against the weaponization of the arts -- by ANY group of people.

Autbot_Benz

02-05-2020, 11:31 AM

88% on rotten tomatoes right now

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/birds_of_prey_2020/reviews?sort=rotten

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-05-2020, 11:46 AM

88% on rotten tomatoes right now

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/birds_of_prey_2020/reviews?sort=rotten

That low? I'm shocked.

Autbot_Benz

02-05-2020, 12:02 PM

That low? I'm shocked.

91% with critic consensus

With a fresh perspective, some new friends, and loads of fast-paced action, Birds of Prey captures the colorfully anarchic spirit of Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn.

Andrew NDB

02-05-2020, 12:16 PM

Oh, I'm positive it'll be even closer to 100% with the critics soon enough.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-05-2020, 12:26 PM

Oh, I'm positive it'll be even closer to 100% with the critics soon enough.

Can't wait to hear everyone sing its praises.

Piece of $hit movie with a $hit interpretation of the Birds of Prey and Cassandra Cain.

Yeah, I'm bitter as fvck over this one. Call me a butthurt fanboy.

Babs and Cass deserve way better.

AquaParade

02-05-2020, 12:28 PM

I'm actually quite excited to see what Ewan McGregor does with Black Mask. I know I'm going to roll my eyes at literally everything Margot Robbie says as HQ though...I just can't handle that character, who is way too self-aware of their own perceived cuteness - both the actor, within the role, and the character, I feel.

Autbot_Benz

02-05-2020, 12:35 PM

Can't wait to hear everyone sing its praises.

Piece of $hit movie with a $hit interpretation of the Birds of Prey and Cassandra Cain.

Yeah, I'm bitter as fvck over this one. Call me a butthurt fanboy.

Babs and Cass deserve way better.

Dinah deserves better too. Dinah isn't black or bisexual and the broad playing her doesn't even have her blond wig/dyed hair.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-05-2020, 12:48 PM

Dinah deserves better too. Dinah isn't black or bisexual and the broad playing her doesn't even have her blond wig/dyed hair.

I figured I'd leave that complaint to you, amigo. :twink:

Besides, I feel like she already got $hat on pretty heavily through 8 seasons of Arrow...

I'm actually quite excited to see what Ewan McGregor does with Black Mask. I know I'm going to roll my eyes at literally everything Margot Robbie says as HQ though...I just can't handle that character, who is way too self-aware of their own perceived cuteness - both the actor, within the role, and the character, I feel.

Great casting for Black Mask, in a terrible rendition in a terrible movie. I might enjoy a YouTube clip or two from his performance, but that's at best... I have zero faith in this film or any of the portrayals.

Autbot_Benz

02-05-2020, 12:50 PM

I figured I'd leave that complaint to you, amigo. :twink:

Besides, I feel like she already got $hat on pretty heavily through 8 seasons of Arrow...

Ironically compared to this movie Arrow did Both Versions of Canary quite well. Also the new Spin off series Green Arrow and The Canaries is more Birds of Prey like than this stupid movie.

Andrew NDB

02-05-2020, 12:53 PM

Besides, I feel like she already got $hat on pretty heavily through 8 seasons of Arrow...

It's hard to argue with that. What a mess. I felt bad for the actress, everything they did to that character.

Autbot_Benz

02-05-2020, 12:55 PM

It's hard to argue with that. What a mess. I felt bad for the actress, everything they did to that character.

Which one there were Two Canaries starting with Season 5-8

I think your talking about Katie Cassidy. Hopefully with the spin off series she gets more time to shine

Andrew NDB

02-05-2020, 12:59 PM

Which one there were Two Canaries starting with Season 5-8

That's part of what I'm talking about. They killed off her character, replaced her with a "cooller" Earth-2 version (thus jettisoning whole seasons worth of development and history with Oliver) AND to top it off they brought in a whole other Black Canary as a regular to further diminish her role on the show.

It's like as soon as TPTB became dead set on Oliver's destiny being with Felicity and not Laurel, that was that for her. They had no idea what to do with her.

Hopefully with the spin off series she gets more time to shine

I hope she gets a good paycheck out of it but I definitely won't be checking out that thing.

Sumac

02-05-2020, 02:20 PM

Leo656

02-05-2020, 03:03 PM

This movie is one of those situations where people whine at me about "just not getting what people like", as if it's a Me Problem. And I'm like fine, whatever, if junk like this is what people like then I'm perfectly fine with not getting it.

Pretty sure "Joker" was the last "comic book movie" I'll be seeing for a very, very long time, and that wasn't even a real comic book movie. I've had my absolute fill of In Name Only adaptations made by people who only chase the current market trends and have no respect at all for the source material. Which is basically all of them.

MikeandRaph87

02-05-2020, 03:08 PM

Can't wait to hear everyone sing its praises.

Piece of $hit movie with a $hit interpretation of the Birds of Prey and Cassandra Cain.

Yeah, I'm bitter as fvck over this one. Call me a butthurt fanboy.

Babs and Cass deserve way better.

The characters are so farr off their depiction its arguably in name only (MMPR 2017 film). Black Canary and Black Mask too. This will be the first Bat villain I will not get to see in film because of the disinterest I feel.

Barbara needs another round as Batgirl in film. Barbara Gordon proper has never appeared.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-05-2020, 03:24 PM

The characters are so farr off their depiction its arguably in name only (MMPR 2017 film). Black Canary and Black Mask too. This will be the first Bat villain I will not get to see in film because of the disinterest I feel.

At least the Power Rangers LOOKED like Power Rangers.

Hell, Harley Quinn barely even looks like HQ. Where's the red and black?

Shark_Blade

02-05-2020, 06:12 PM

Birds of Prey is slaying with 92% on rottentomatoes. We love to see it. :tlove::tlove:

https://twitter.com/rottentomatoes/status/1225114269101854720?s=21
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/birds_of_prey_2020

https://i.imgur.com/3TpgGGQ.jpg

MikeandRaph87

02-05-2020, 06:23 PM

At least the Power Rangers LOOKED like Power Rangers.

Hell, Harley Quinn barely even looks like HQ. Where's the red and black?

Yeah, I miss the court jester outfit too. Why does Harley have to be sexualized?

Critics love it? I am a Bat Villain Superfan and I don't even want to watch a trailer.

Leo656

02-05-2020, 06:54 PM

She has to be sexualized because she's f*cking hot. Is this a serious question? :lol:

And the jester outfit looks like absolute sh*t in live action, as the five seconds of it in Suicide Squad proved. So I'm not adverse to some kind of compromise - I thought she looked fine in Squad - but it's a little bit over-the-top in this one.

If I read one more "captures the spirit of..." quote from some hack critic who's never read a single comic book I swear I'm going to vomit. At times I sincerely wish that only people who read comics were allowed to review comic book movies, even though I logically understand why that wouldn't work out too well. But this is one case where it argues heavily in favor of that kind of system, logic be damned.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-05-2020, 09:33 PM

Yeah, I miss the court jester outfit too. Why does Harley have to be sexualized?.

She has to be sexualized because she's f*cking hot. Is this a serious question? :lol:

And the jester outfit looks like absolute sh*t in live action, as the five seconds of it in Suicide Squad proved. So I'm not adverse to some kind of compromise - I thought she looked fine in Squad - but it's a little bit over-the-top in this one.

I've always thought the Arkham City outfit would be the perfect blend of live-action awesome, sex appeal, and red-and-black faithfulness.

AquaParade

02-05-2020, 09:36 PM

I really like her costume in the animated series. I wouldn’t ever want t for live action. Although, could it maybe work? I mean, are we supposed to take her seriously?

The only costume I can think of that would be harder to translate faithfully is Wolverine’s spandex. I keep wondering how MCU will go about that. I think I’d be satisfied with super tiny “ears” or no mask at all, if the rest of the costume looked awesome and resembled the comics. Wolverine always looked awesome with his suit all torn up anyway. I love the mask but really how do you justify that?

Leo656

02-05-2020, 09:43 PM

Eh, the mask they showed for that one X-Men movie where it didn't get used looked pretty good. I honestly would have liked to see that. But yeah, his costume is pretty tough to pull off, although it's so iconic I feel it deserves a shot, and I think it can be made to work with a minimum of compromise.

I don't think Harley's jester suit can be made to work, though. I kinda agree with CKD about the Arkham suit being a happy medium. It's recognizable as Harley but also "real-world" enough not to look ridiculous. I wouldn't complain.

We'd still be stuck with the rest of This Sh*t, though, so... lose either way. Seriously, what she's wearing is the least of what's wrong with this mess.

Autbot_Benz

02-06-2020, 02:17 PM

Certified Fresh at 88% on Rotten Tomatoes

TommyT

02-06-2020, 02:28 PM

LOLOLOLOL.

it's going to bomb hard. Zero word of mouth about this.

AquaParade

02-06-2020, 02:37 PM

LOLOLOLOL.

it's going to bomb hard. Zero word of mouth about this.

Really? I'm betting on it doing well, though I don't have much to back that up.

I'm going off the strong feminine angle, which seems to be big right now, the success of Suicide Squad, and the millions of hot topic teens.

I expect this to make at least $500,000 WW. I'd bet about $10 on it.

TommyT

02-06-2020, 03:24 PM

Really? I'm betting on it doing well, though I don't have much to back that up.

I'm going off the strong feminine angle, which seems to be big right now, the success of Suicide Squad, and the millions of hot topic teens.

I expect this to make at least $500,000 WW. I'd bet about $10 on it.

So, you're betting that male comicbook readers will show up in droves to see the sexy female comic characters in a movie, with the strong women angle. I'd buy that, EXCEPT that:
This movie has specifically told men that it's "not for them" but also "they better support it" so, effectively scolding them into seeing it. They've also hyped the fact that the woemn are intentionally avoiding anything that would entice "the male gaze".
So this is now the antithesis of what men enjoy, unless you're not much of a man.

I'd draw a parallel to the latest Charlies angels, who used the same approach.
I'd also add that Ayer has not been deliveriung strong films.

And to top it all off, the trailers are pure cringe, and they dropped it in early February.
Yeah, the female comicbook readers will go, and they'll bring their kids. It has that going for it. but what kind of numbers do they actually represent?
There is no faith in this movie.

Andrew NDB

02-06-2020, 04:33 PM

The only costume I can think of that would be harder to translate faithfully is Wolverine’s spandex. I keep wondering how MCU will go about that.

Easy: make it not spandex (also make it not leather, I hope... we've had enough of that to last six lifetimes in the Singerverse). As for the mask, also easy... just go the route of the Wolverine mask in "The Wolverine" deleted scene. As for WHY the mask, in addition to some sense of uniformity with the other mutants, perhaps there can be tech in there. Nightvision lenses, tech that amplifies his hearing in the "ears," etc..

TommyT

02-06-2020, 06:07 PM

Easy: make it not spandex (also make it not leather, I hope... we've had enough of that to last six lifetimes in the Singerverse). As for the mask, also easy... just go the route of the Wolverine mask in "The Wolverine" deleted scene. As for WHY the mask, in addition to some sense of uniformity with the other mutants, perhaps there can be tech in there. Nightvision lenses, tech that amplifies his hearing in the "ears," etc..

Not "easy"

it's impossible to explain. Try it. Why does a man wear a mask with giant black wings on the side. Are there tactical advantages?

AquaParade

02-06-2020, 06:55 PM

Fair points regarding BOP, TommyT. Charlie’s Angels did bomb pretty hard, but seriously have any comicbook adaptions bombed recently? I’m honestly forgetting, but the genre seems so strong in the box office right now.

I also forgot to mention the positive reviews which may have a small impact on B.O.

Again you might be right. Idk I’m just guessing.

TommyT

02-06-2020, 07:50 PM

I’m not over here cheering for the movie to fail, it just seems like a huge ball of gas. I just get irritated when they go in for the hard sell, then back that up with attacks on the audience.

I thought suicide squad was trash, but I hoped this would be better. It had potential, but the trailer screams bomb.

Shark_Blade

02-06-2020, 07:59 PM

Birds of Prey is DC’s first good action movie

https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/6/21126386/birds-of-prey-review-margot-robbie-dc-joker

Birds of Prey is a breakup movie. This is obvious from minute one when Harley Quinn (Margot Robbie, reprising her role from Suicide Squad) explains via an animated prologue her history as a psychiatrist who fell for Batman’s most notorious villain, Joker. (Twisted!) It breezes through the complicated series of events that led to their abusive relationship coming to an end. That’s how you get the subtitle, written in Harley’s intentionally obnoxious voice: The Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn.

But Birds of Prey isn’t just about Harley’s breakup with Joker (who never appears outside of that prologue and a pair of extremely quick shots where he’s not quite in frame). It dumps everything that’s now par for the course in superhero movies: boring action mostly featuring men and computers, and stories about their stodgy tortured psyches. It’s very loud and absolutely gleeful about the mess it makes. And somehow, it pulls it off.

The movie is meant to seem like a big team-up between Quinn and several other DC antiheroes, but in reality, the story centers itself squarely on Harley and the many people who want to take revenge on her now that she’s no longer under Joker’s protection. Chief among these grudge-bearers is Roman “Black Mask” Sionis (Ewan McGregor), a cartoonishly vain and possessive crime lord with eyes on expanding his corner of the Gotham City underworld. When Sionis catches up to Quinn, the two strike a deal: he’ll spare her life if she gets a diamond with mob secrets etched into it for him. Since he plans to kill her anyway, Sionis also hires every bounty hunter in Gotham to get the diamond as well.

It’s through this treasure hunt that Birds of Prey introduces and brings together its main players: Cassandra Cain (Ella Jay Basco) is a pickpocket who stumbles across the diamond, Helena “Huntress” Bertinelli (Mary Elizabeth Winstead) is an assassin after the diamond for personal reasons, Dinah “Black Canary” Lance (Jurnee Smollett-Bell) is an employee of Sionis who turns on her boss, and Detective Renee Montoya (Rosie Perez) is the cop who’s piecing it all together.

Unfortunately, the cast is introduced via a nonlinear timeline that revisits the events of Harley’s first week post-breakup before rewinding at key moments to explain how each new face factors into the grand plot. While it’s most likely meant to give the movie a fun, kinetic feel — Birds of Prey would rather die than pump the brakes on anything — it mostly highlights how thin the plot is outside of Harley. Every character and performance is vibrant and fun, but few feel fleshed out beyond Harley and Sionis. While everyone is great, McGregor is the only actor who comes close to Margot Robbie’s level of energy, gleefully throwing himself into the sleaziest performance he can possibly give. He’s a highly flammable ball of misogynist grease, and you can’t wait to have someone toss a match at his pretty mug.

THERE’S MUCH MORE TO LIKE WHEN BIRDS OF PREY GOES FULL CHAOS QUEEN
The good news is that the movie abandons this choppy structure roughly halfway through, mostly in favor of unmitigated mayhem. There are things that can be grating about that — the movie cannot have a punch thrown without a needle drop on an extremely on-the-nose song, and there’s way too much slow-mo — but there’s much more to like when Birds of Prey goes full Chaos Queen.

This is a superhero movie that finally gives a **** about how its action looks and isn’t interested in relying solely on computers to give fight scenes a pop of color. Just about every big fight in the movie is choreographed and staged in the most interesting way possible: pink and blue smoke fills the air, a grenade launcher fires glitter bombs, there’s a car chase on roller skates, and the movie’s biggest brawl is a big game of keep-away on a merry-go-round. Add that with Robbie’s tremendous talent for physical comedy and every character having a distinct personality expressed via their fighting style, and the movie’s big set pieces are among the most fun in modern superhero cinema.

There’s a largesse here that, weirdly, hearkens back to Batman Forever and Batman & Robin, movies that envisioned Gotham City as a neon funhouse full of the loudest-possible architecture and even louder personalities. This is a good thing. Sure, the movie leans a little too hard into Harley’s “Lisa Frank but with murder” schtick, but it’s much more preferable than the very safe and increasingly stale Marvel Cinematic Universe. Anything can happen, and Birds of Prey relishes in the havoc that implies.

That manic energy is all that’s holding Birds of Prey together at times, and the fact that all of its characters seem to thrive in it makes it all the more disappointing that the movie doesn’t really take any time to get to know them better. It’s almost enough to derail the movie, but at a brisk hour and 47 minutes of genuinely fun spectacle, it’s hard to hold too much against it. Breakups are messy, but at their best, they’re also cathartic as hell.

Autbot_Benz

02-06-2020, 08:09 PM

WTF Dinah would never work for Black Mask she is smarter than that. Seriously **** this movie

Shark_Blade

02-06-2020, 08:26 PM

Margot Robbie enduring hot wings while being interviewed and promoting BOP :D

JeUFrZtKkn8

Shark_Blade

02-07-2020, 06:14 AM

Lovely cast interview and eating

gSYloBGO5PU

Leo656

02-07-2020, 09:20 PM

Reading the plot synopsis on Wikipedia is infuriating. So many great characters, completely mishandled. And at great expense to the larger Batman mythos, as well, especially if you're a big fan of Black Mask and Zsasz, as I am.

Zsasz gets killed off by Huntress, and Black Mask gets blown up by a hand grenade at the end thanks to "Cassandra Cain" (even people who love the movie admit that she's nothing at all like the comic book character, and that the actress herself is terrible, so if you're a fan of this character as well, plenty to be pissed off about here).

SO. Two of the best "modern"-ish Batman ( as in Post-1980s) villains finally get significant big screen treatment, and are apparently not too badly acted and kind of fun to watch... and then they both get f*cking killed off before they ever even get to meet Batman in this movie universe. :roll: WHAT THE HELL, MOVIE?!

I don't care how much glitter and dick jokes your movie has. You do some straight-up bullsh*t like that and it's a hard no from me, man. I don't think I'm EVER gonna see this piece of sh*t.

What a waste this whole project is. People have been waiting forever for a Harley movie, and a Birds of Prey movie, and while mashing both of those things together makes no sense outside of WB not wanting to spend a lot of money (and chasing the "Grrl Power" wave), in the end it's just a goddamn Margot Robbie vanity project. She was apparently given tons of creative control on this thing and for f*ck's sake, you just can't do that.

Maybe the Birds (and the villains) will be treated with more respect in 20 years or so when the next reboot happens. What a bad f*cking joke this is.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-07-2020, 11:13 PM

Maybe the Birds (and the villains) will be treated with more respect in 20 years or so when the next reboot happens. What a bad f*cking joke this is.

At this point, I'm pretty sure there won't be more comic book movies in 20 years. No reboots, no relaunches. Maybe a solo Spiderman and Batman and Captain America series, or whatever, but lately I'm feeling like when this wave of comic-book-to-screen adaptations finally ends, it ends for good.

It's an era. The western eventually died out, except for a few stragglers. So did the 90's blockbuster, except for a few callbacks.

Comic book movies has been the 2010's-2020's, and for however long the wave lasts. But then we'll be on to something else culturally, and left with only occasional fan favorite characters in solo franchises.

Leo656

02-07-2020, 11:28 PM

Did you read the Spoiler tagged bit? I expected more outrage.

PApagreg

02-08-2020, 12:40 AM

At this point, I'm pretty sure there won't be more comic book movies in 20 years. No reboots, no relaunches. Maybe a solo Spiderman and Batman and Captain America series, or whatever, but lately I'm feeling like when this wave of comic-book-to-screen adaptations finally ends, it ends for good.

It's an era. The western eventually died out, except for a few stragglers. So did the 90's blockbuster, except for a few callbacks.

Comic book movies has been the 2010's-2020's, and for however long the wave lasts. But then we'll be on to something else culturally, and left with only occasional fan favorite characters in solo franchises.

Well the thing with Westerns is that between 1950-1974 there were 2700 western movies, say what you will on how over bloated the superhero genre but we are no where near that amount. Another thing is that comic book(or superheroes specifically) cover an array amount of genres that if the people behind them play their cards the genre could last for decades. I wasn't too crazy about Joker and Birds of Prey don't really interest me but they do show that you can do a lot with the Superhero genre.

Andrew NDB

02-08-2020, 12:50 AM

At this point, I'm pretty sure there won't be more comic book movies in 20 years.

Maybe not, but I suspect not for the reasons you think. Comics themselves as a commercially viable artform will be gone long before that... then there simply won't be new viable things to adapt into movies.

I mean, look at DC and Marvel. Both are just recycling old events, or tailoring the comics to suit the movies. Tantamount to the snake eating its own tail. What is there that new movies can adapt, exactly? Nothing, unless they just keep digging further back into time before DC and Marvel were puppets of the films, into more and more obscure stuff (which might not even be the worst thing?).

The "problem" will sort of take care of itself, I think.

TommyT

02-08-2020, 01:38 AM

Lol. The review proves my assumption to be true Cinematic PMS.
This trash should have waited until the end of the month to drop.

MikeandRaph87

02-08-2020, 05:57 AM

AquaParade

02-08-2020, 06:08 AM

Black Mask will have another chance to shine if someone wants to use him, but this was a rare shot at bat for him, so if he was actually done well enough for you to care, consider that a positive. If a director has use for him, he’ll be back in one form or another. We’ve seen these villains time and time again and now he is a more “proven” member of the Gotham Rogues Gallery with fans and creators. I just don’t see the point in getting upset about the loss of a character in a franchise one has no interest in. If the character is just straight up done terribly, I get that complaint. And sure, maybe it’s a bummer if you love Black Mask and his perfect adaption is within a movie you otherwise can’t stand. I get that. But it’s different.

I do have to say that the continued praise of Black Mask is really getting me excited to see him. I definitely went from "never watching this" to looking forward to renting it on home release day. I spoke too soon.

Also, at this point, I think trying to predict the future of comicbook adaptions is a risky game. I think tech will have more to do with whatever comes next, quite honestly. I think it’s more likely that comicbook Virtual Reality adaptions overtake the comicbook film genre, than say, a wave of furry-based films or video game adaptions.

Now, I don’t think my suggestion is most likely either. The point is, I think we try and make our predictions with the evidence we can see in front of us and behind us, but it’s the unknown elements that will shake things up. Just my two cents at playing futurist. Y’all could be right.

Leo656

02-08-2020, 06:31 AM

I read the spoiler tag and the Bat villains are my sole investment in this. If they are so mishandled then it's an easy pass for me. Hope it bombs and Black Mask gets another chance on screen.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/cosmicbook.news/birds-prey-box-office-worse-thought%3famp

Currently looking to get 33.5 million domestic in its opening weekend. Maybe audiences or lack thereof agree with those of us invested in the source material.

I was actually very interested in hearing what you'd think about that, based on conversations we've had.

From what I gather "Black Mask" doesn't even put the mask on until the movie's almost over. :roll: Why use This Guy in the first place if you're just gonna do it all wrong? Why not use a jobber like Clock King or someone, if none of it f*cking matters anyway? Jesus. None of these f*cking people read comic books, and therefore should not be allowed near the production of these goddamn movies in the first place.

Like, can someone who reads a lot more of the recent Batman comics than I have confirm ANY pre-existing interaction between Black Mask, Zsasz, and these other characters? Because for the life of me, I can't even recall these Major Batman Villains ever really interacting with Harley, or Huntress, or any of them. They're not "their" villains in the first place,
...But these Major Villains with tons of potential get introduced ONLY to be killed off by these characters they have only minimal canon history with? Before they even get a chance to be more firmly established? COME ON! I can't stand the "Always Kill The Villain" trope in these movies to begin with, but seeing two of my favorites get hand-waved out of things so easily, after waiting so long to see them get a chance to shine, just really, really sucks. Doesn't matter how good the acting is. They're done away with. Nothing to look forward to. F*ck that.

Comic book movies would collectively be a lot better if they didn't almost always kill off the bad guys. They're usually the most interesting characters to begin with.

So much potential, wasted. For reasons that are both obvious and terrible. Could've done the exact same sh*t without ruining two perfectly good villains of note. What, they thought Maxie Zeus and Calendar Man were "too silly"? :roll: Why use GOOD villains if all you're gonna use them for is this? Makes absolutely zero sense. If they're only there to be fodder in the end anyway, then use jobbers. That's just plain common sense.

When I told my wife about this, she was pretty annoyed, then tried to come up with something that might redeem it, like, "Well, maybe they'll just have another character call themselves 'Black Mask' then in a Batman movie" if they can't use Roman Sionis anymore, and then immediately realized how dumb that sounded out loud and apologized. She admittedly only cares about this movie because she's a big Quinn mark and was grasping at straws that this thing has at least some redeeming qualities beyond Robbie herself. But she admits that having almost every character be "In Name Only" and then doing some sh*t like they did with the villains and Cassandra Cain is really, really, REALLY lousy and sets terrible precedent going forward.

Definitely should have been kept as two movies. By all accounts, the Harley stuff is perfectly fine but everything else is ruined by association because none of the other stuff even BELONGS there in the first place. Everyone is just bastardized and mishandled for Harley's glorification. And that's a real shame. I'm sure she continues to nail the role, and that everything "Harley-centric" about it is on point, but everything else would have been much better served by being utilized separately, not as part of this.

I understand WHY DC/WB would smash them into two movies, since either a Harley movie or a Birds movie would be "a risk", financially, but they barely spent crap on this to begin with, so that's a poor excuse. If this really is "A decent Harley Quinn movie mixed with a terrible BoP one", as it sounds, then they should have been kept separate and then we could have had TWO decent movies, maybe even really good ones. But what they did to most of the other characters to help build her up is just plain inexcusable.

Now it's just an ice cream and pickle sandwich. Not every good thing mixes well with other good things. Usually you get crap.

Maybe audiences or lack thereof agree with those of us invested in the source material.
Nope. Adherence to canon is the exact opposite of what's acceptable with these things. You and I, my friend, are better off skipping all of these movies entirely from now on. Much better for the blood pressure.

As Linkara once said, and I very loosely paraphrase, "I like the characters and situations from the comic books for a reason. I don't want to see them turned into something completely unrecognizable and marketed to people who don't give a sh*t." There's no appeal in that for me whatsoever.

AquaParade

02-08-2020, 08:11 AM

Wait.

What?

That is Cassandra Cain?
Bahaha

Leo656

02-08-2020, 08:33 AM

She's not "My" Batgirl and in fact I only have a few comics of hers but I know she has loads of passionate fans. I feel badly for them. Like incredibly. They don't deserve this.

People care about this stuff. Maybe too much, but I'll never understand ruining an existing character rather than making up a new one, if it matters so little. It's incredibly disrespectful to a character's fans.

Using a name to sell a ticket is Cheap Heat. If it really doesn't matter, just make up a new character. If the story is strong, and the character is strong, then they don't need the extra help of being given a totally different character's name, they'll get over just fine on their own. This is a gimmick they use when they simply don't have faith in the material they're presenting.

It's like when the WWF dressed Kane/Glen Jacobs up in Kevin Nash's old gear and called him "Diesel", and actually insisted that "As long as someone called Diesel is on the show, people should be happy and like it." Lo and behold, there was a reason people liked the character, beyond the superficial things like a name or a leather vest, and rejected being told to just be happy with a fake stand-in for the guy they actually wanted to see. Go figure. Also go figure, he eventually got over a lot better as a completely new character instead of as a Fake Shemp.

Arrogant crap like "Fans are stupid, they won't know or care" didn't used to go over as well back then as it does now.

AquaParade

02-08-2020, 10:18 AM

I'm sometimes okay with it. Depends on execution and purpose. Typically the question is "why change a character instead of introduce a new one?"
But I'm okay with tweaking characters in order to fit a universe, vision, or particular story. This look pretty egregious from my perspective though. I sympathize with fans who are disappointed.

Now, I know a lot of people enjoy Margot Robbie as HQ, but I have to say I really don't and now I think I know why.
She is playing a cartoon character in live-action. That cutesy baby voice and childish demeanor works with a silly little animated character who is practically a "Looney Toon", but adapting that directly for live-action is holy cringe to me. It reminds me of how my cousin would still do that weird "baby talk" thing until she was like 15.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-08-2020, 10:47 AM

Did you read the Spoiler tagged bit? I expected more outrage.

They already fvcked up Cassandra Cain way back at the casting, and then in the trailers.

I'm out of rage by the time we get to "oh, and besides having Harley form the Birds of Prey, no Barbara Gordon to be found, AND Cassandra Cain is a cowardly pudgy teen on the run"... what, I'm gonna flip out because they butchered Black Mask and Zsasz, too? I'm out of fvcks by this point. :tlol:

vicsavage

02-08-2020, 12:45 PM

I saw it. It was good, entertaining and funny. Ewan McGregor was particularly inspired as Black Mask.

Candy Kappa

02-08-2020, 01:31 PM

DCEU Cassandra was never gonna be like in the comic, it wouldn't fit the established canon and someone had to be "the kid" in BOP, just like what they did to Barry in JL

AquaParade

02-08-2020, 01:57 PM

Looks like you were right, TommyT. The movie is apparently underperforming compared to predictions.

Autbot_Benz

02-08-2020, 02:26 PM

DC’s ‘Birds of Prey’ hates men, but wants their money - no wonder it's bombing at the box office

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/480385-bird...mpression=true

"Every man in the movie, with the lone exception being a character (played by the criminally underused actor Eddie Alfano) with fifteen seconds of screen time and no dialogue, is either entitled, conniving, maniacally violent, a rapist or all of the above."

So does this movie really show all man like this in the movie?

RT
@RT_com
'If equality is women making misandrist, hyper-violent, incoherently vapid and dreadful movies, then #BirdsofPrey is a smashing success for feminism'

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-08-2020, 02:51 PM

DCEU Cassandra was never gonna be like in the comic, it wouldn't fit the established canon and someone had to be "the kid" in BOP, just like what they did to Barry in JL

And why the fvck not?

Zulithe

02-08-2020, 03:15 PM

Saw it in Dolby Cinema yesterday. It was worth seeing. I like Margo as Harley a lot, so if you like her in suicide squad (even if you don't like the movie itself) you get tons more of that here which will appeal to a lot of fans. I love Ewan but Black Mask is kind of weaksauce as a primary villain. Whatever, you don't go see this film for the hero/villain dynamic, it's more about the girls getting together and enjoying watching them kick some butt.

Don't think the R rating is the real problem here. The film title is part of the problem. I think a lot of the audience out there just doesn't know wtf this movie is trying to be. Should have just named it Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey and been done with it.

I understood why some people saw Captain Marvel as antagonistic towards male viewers in its message in certain ways. But I really didn't get that vibe here at all. So if people think that's going to be an issue, I personally didn't pick up on any of that. It's more like Wonder Woman, where it's very empowering for its female characters but doesn't try to do it at the expense of male characters. And that's how it should be.

Andrew NDB

02-08-2020, 03:36 PM

And why the fvck not?

Yeah, why not? And who held the gun at their head to make the character Cassandra? Wouldn't just making up some new character make sense?

BlimeyBullhop

02-08-2020, 04:10 PM

Super Goku

Andrew NDB

02-08-2020, 04:21 PM

On track for the worst DCEU opening ever:

https://screenrant.com/birds-prey-movie-box-office-opening-weekend-lowest-dceu-record/

AquaParade

02-08-2020, 04:36 PM

I'm just glad we have enough of a security blanket now that the message can't be muddled into "R-rated adaptions don't sell".

I'm telling you, Joker is a potential godsend. I can't think of any other notable comicbook movies that didn't have licensing agreements attached. No "Joker" merch. And those licensing agreements come with conditions.

PApagreg

02-08-2020, 05:07 PM

I'm telling you, Joker is a potential godsend. I can't think of any other notable comicbook movies that didn't have licensing agreements attached. No "Joker" merch. And those licensing agreements come with conditions.

If Joker gets me either a Shocker or Doctor Doom movie it will deserve all of the Oscar nominations.

AquaParade

02-08-2020, 05:35 PM

Dude, a Shocker movie could be Awesome!

Andrew NDB

02-08-2020, 06:13 PM

VMS2dbL2hMo

Andrew NDB

02-08-2020, 07:17 PM

"Worst opening since Jonah Hex":

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/birds-prey-falls-worst-dc-155502125.html

MikeandRaph87

02-08-2020, 07:28 PM

[QUOTE=Leo656;1834815]I was actually very interested in hearing what you'd think about that, based on conversations we've had.

I appreciate that. I am a Bat villain aficionado. 8) I decided to lie low and not really comment on this film. I did not want to come off as an opinionated fool set in his ways and the film just genuinely disinterest me. Nothing to make me give it a chance even with Black Mask and Mr. Zsasz. Black Mask appears to be in name alone, but I am not sure about Mr. Zsasz. He already has a great depiction in live action so its okay if this falls flat.

From what I gather "Black Mask" doesn't even put the mask on until the movie's almost over. :roll: Why use This Guy in the first place if you're just gonna do it all wrong? Why not use a jobber like Clock King or someone, if none of it f*cking matters anyway? Jesus. None of these f*cking people read comic books, and therefore should not be allowed near the production of these goddamn movies in the first place.

I assumed it would be the case because all of the advertising and marketed products like the Funko Pops! refer to him as Roman Sionis instead. It reminds me of how Scarecrow was just a mask that Jonathan Crane used. It was made up for some in that he was the first ever villain to carry over form one film to another. There is the dark origin of being a from a rich family who he resented and knew Bruce as children similar to Tommy Elliott. The fact the mask came from his parents coffin. A lot of material to work with. Black Mask was made homosexual when he is not. Is it because his family runs a high end cosmetics company before Roman bankrupted it? Cosmetics equals feminine? 90% of the time liberties are taken with the villains to fit the story that made add to the story being told and that is fine, but Black Mask seemed to be fodder for girl power of characters in name only. A good example of this is Joker is merged with Joe Chill and he Batman inadvertently created one another. It is not Joker, but it serves the story and I accept it. Black Mask and Mr. Zsasz like Killer Croc and Deadshot before them do not face Batman which is disappointing. Its nice being able to say 14 villains in Batman's rogus gallery have been adapted and Carmine Falcone too if he counts. Yet I would rather Batman fight them and also not be fodder.

Like, can someone who reads a lot more of the recent Batman comics than I have confirm ANY pre-existing interaction between Black Mask, Zsasz, and these other characters? Because for the life of me, I can't even recall these Major Batman Villains ever really interacting with Harley, or Huntress, or any of them. They're not "their" villains in the first place,
[SPOILER]...But these Major Villains with tons of potential get introduced ONLY to be killed off by these characters they have only minimal canon history with? Before they even get a chance to be more firmly established? COME ON! I can't stand the "Always Kill The Villain" trope in these movies to begin with, but seeing two of my favorites get hand-waved out of things so easily, after waiting so long to see them get a chance to shine, just really, really sucks. Doesn't matter how good the acting is. They're done away with. Nothing to look forward to. F*ck that.

No, they have never interacted. I understand why they are parried though. Bane may look it, but is not an underling yet villain in his own right. Mr. Zsasz as a competent number two of an underworld kingpin makes sense. So the set up is right and its one of the few things that Gotham did really well. Gotham has shown the perfect Victor Zsasz when he served as Penguin's top enforcer. He is a believable threat but is limited to what he can do on his own as a serial killer with a high count because many others being more prominent than him. He can be sympathetic. Check out these three stories, Batman Chronicles #3 ( his origin), Batman: Batgirl (1998 flashback with Barbara investigating a classmates murder), and Detective Comics#814/815.

Comic book movies would collectively be a lot better if they didn't almost always kill off the bad guys. They're usually the most interesting characters to begin with.

It is something I have always known. The trope goes back to Batman (1989). I actually expect the chief villain to die. Sometimes its good they survive such as Riddler in a vegetative state haunting Batman while other times they should have died like Poison Ivy in Batman & Robin. Other like Sandman should have died and Venom survived instead of the opposite. Some of it may come down to opinion in how it would serve the story.

So much potential, wasted. For reasons that are both obvious and terrible. Could've done the exact same sh*t without ruining two perfectly good villains of note. What, they thought Maxie Zeus and Calendar Man were "too silly"? :roll: Why use GOOD villains if all you're gonna use them for is this? Makes absolutely zero sense. If they're only there to be fodder in the end anyway, then use jobbers. That's just plain common sense.

I don't know if that is the case. Ratcatcher an underrated darker nobody Bat Rogue who only appeared a few times since his 1988 debut is going to be in the Suicide Squad pseudo sequel. Polka Dot Man, he two appearances only. The first in Detective Comics#300 and then decades later Harvey Bullock of all people puts him in a coma. If they are reaching that low I doubt Calander Man would be ignored. There is the Hannibal Lecter-like informant role he assumed in Loeb's Long Halloween and it was carried over into the Arkham games. So it is possible for him to have a small role in The Batman or follow ups.

When I told my wife about this, she was pretty annoyed, then tried to come up with something that might redeem it, like, "Well, maybe they'll just have another character call themselves 'Black Mask' then in a Batman movie" if they can't use Roman Sionis anymore, and then immediately realized how dumb that sounded out loud and apologized. She admittedly only cares about this movie because she's a big Quinn mark and was grasping at straws that this thing has at least some redeeming qualities beyond Robbie herself. But she admits that having almost every character be "In Name Only" and then doing some sh*t like they did with the villains and Cassandra Cain is really, really, REALLY lousy and sets terrible precedent going forward.

Definitely should have been kept as two movies. By all accounts, the Harley stuff is perfectly fine but everything else is ruined by association because none of the other stuff even BELONGS there in the first place. Everyone is just bastardized and mishandled for Harley's glorification. And that's a real shame. I'm sure she continues to nail the role, and that everything "Harley-centric" about it is on point, but everything else would have been much better served by being utilized separately, not as part of this.

I like how you said "Harley Quinn Mark".:lol: I would have given a chance to this film if Barbara Gordon was involved. Yes, you know I prefer her as Batgirl, BUT if she appeared as Oracle it would have been fine. It's just not Birds of Prey if Barbara Gordon is not at the center and Dinah Lance is not integrate to the plot. Look at the stills I could not identify which one was Black Canary. Yes, I do like the characters to look like "they are supposed to from the comics". I apologize. Just give me Barbara Gordon and do her justice in some way even if its not a direction I prefer such as Oracle, but she would appear. This is why I will not see the movie. Not my disappointment in
how a pair of never to be adapted to film Bat Rogues being handled or the feminist push of the film being a turnoff. Its the lack of Barbara Gordon. I love Barbara Gordon, Dick Grayson, and Bat Rogues. Sue me.

Part 1 of 2, apparently I used too many characters.

MikeandRaph87

02-08-2020, 07:30 PM

understand WHY DC/WB would smash them into two movies, since either a Harley movie or a Birds movie would be "a risk", financially, but they barely spent crap on this to begin with, so that's a poor excuse. If this really is "A decent Harley Quinn movie mixed with a terrible BoP one", as it sounds, then they should have been kept separate and then we could have had TWO decent movies, maybe even really good ones. But what they did to most of the other characters to help build her up is just plain inexcusable.

Now it's just an ice cream and pickle sandwich. Not every good thing mixes well with other good things. Usually you get crap.

Nope. Adherence to canon is the exact opposite of what's acceptable with these things. You and I, my friend, are better off skipping all of these movies entirely from now on. Much better for the blood pressure.

As Linkara once said, and I very loosely paraphrase, "I like the characters and situations from the comic books for a reason. I don't want to see them turned into something completely unrecognizable and marketed to people who don't give a sh*t." There's no appeal in that for me whatsoever.

Like I said above I am no fan of Cassandra Cain or Huntress, though I do like seeing Black Canary in the Justice League I feel sorry for those who are fans of these characters even if I am not like just like you are not. I feel sorry for them because of the misrepresentation of the characters as supporting characters to Harley Quinn ( who I have trouble seeing as being anything but a supporting character).

Its shocking how this movie is rated fresh and how the critics love it. Comic fans seem to want to ignore it like us and there is outright disapproval. Look, I LOVE Aquaman even though I gripe about how Jason Momoa looks absolutely nothing like Aquaman. Instead he looks like Roman Reigns in a wet suit. Jason looks nothing like the character, but the story is great and packs everything Aquaman has into it. It even had a happier ending as I would have lost a lot of money betting that Aquaman's father, Tom Curry would have been murdered by Black Manta as Manta killed Arthur's dad in current cannon in revenge for Aquaman allowing Manta's father to die which also happened in the film. Dark and gritty DC actually had a fun film and defied expectations by having him not die. Watch Black Manta kill him in the sequel though.:roll: Harley Quinn is defying what I think of her, Joker's stooge girl just like Aquaman defied the look of the character, but some things I just cannot get investment in. No Barbara Gordon, two Bat Rogues not treated well and not even fighting Batman? No thanks and i feel sorry for those who are fans of Black Canary, Cassandra Cain, and Huntress showing up in name only teasing their fanbases.

That all being said, I am sitting it out like you. No hate, just disappointed in the product.

Autbot_Benz

02-08-2020, 07:35 PM

If you wanna see a better sort of Birds of Prey than this Feminist ******** go watch these Justice League Unlimited Episodes

the Cat and the Canary (green arrow and Canary centric)
Double Date (Arrow and Canary and Huntress and Question)
Grudge Match( Canary teams with Huntress)

TommyT

02-08-2020, 07:36 PM

Looks like you were right, TommyT. The movie is apparently underperforming compared to predictions.

Thanks for acknowledging. If there was a gambling system based on Hollywood films and their box office, I'd be very, very rich.

MikeandRaph87

02-08-2020, 07:46 PM

If you wanna see a better sort of Birds of Prey than this Feminist ******** go watch the Justice League Unlimited Episode episode Grudge Match its a great team up of Black Canary and Huntress also the cat and the canary

There are a couple of Justice League episodes that I like the original script of before production forced a rewrite. 'To Another Shore' featuring Aquaman instead of Wonder Woman thanks to the Aqua embargo and the Bat embargo keeping an injured Batgirl leading Black Canary and Huntress on a mission in Double Date. On a side note,The Question voiced by Jeffery Combs was a breakout character in Justice League, one of the low ranking heroes that could make DC a lot of money at the box office.

Also, its funny calling Barry "the kid" since Cyborg is the "kid" of the group being actually a Teen Titan. Barry trying to be funny and appealing to the younger set? That was Wally's thing in Justice League. Yes, both are The Flash, but they are different characters. Comedic or perhaps goofy and sarcastic fits wally, not Barry.

Autbot_Benz

02-08-2020, 08:13 PM

On a side note,The Question voiced by Jeffery Combs was a breakout character in Justice League, one of the low ranking heroes that could make DC a lot of money at the box office.

Agreed to a Crime Thriller Noir style movie with Question that would be fun.

MikeandRaph87

02-08-2020, 08:27 PM

Agreed to a Crime Thriller Noir style movie with Question that would be fun.

The commentary by The Question would make it fun. We could get a crime noir with Intergang as the villain. As non-eventual as the characters may be they can make a splash if marketed correctly. Look at Guardians of The Galaxy. It would be a different that DC is trying to find. Speaking of Guardians it would be nice to see Legion of Superheroes, but The Question is simpler and should be easier to put together budget wise and plot wise. A gem that DC does not seem to see.

AquaParade

02-08-2020, 08:55 PM

Thanks for acknowledging. If there was a gambling system based on Hollywood films and their box office, I'd be very, very rich.

There should be. I’d play. My weakness on this one was possibly overestimating Harley/Margot’s Popularity. My thoughts were:

Both Wonder Woman and Cap Marvel were successful female-driven cbm’s
WB is on a hot streak with DC
Suicide Squad was a hit
nearly all comic films are a hit right now
the reviews were fantastic...

On paper, you could easily argue for it’s success. What is your thinking behind the failure? Other films have agitated fans with politics, but could that simply be it?

PApagreg

02-08-2020, 09:02 PM

There should be. I’d play. My weakness on this one was possibly overestimating Harley/Margot’s Popularity. My thoughts were:

Both Wonder Woman and Cap Marvel were successful female-driven cbm’s
WB is on a hot streak with DC
Suicide Squad was a hit
nearly all comic films are a hit right now
the reviews were fantastic...

On paper, you could easily argue for it’s success. What is your thinking behind the failure? Other films have agitated fans with politics, but could that simply be it?

Honestly there could be probably a number of factors but my theory is that it's released on February also known as a dumping ground month.

TommyT

02-08-2020, 10:39 PM

It's not a "number of factors" - it's really just one: Wokeness.

Just read that the director hopes this will lead to a Harley/Poison Ivy film.
Unless it's rated xxx, I don't see it happening.

There should be. I’d play. My weakness on this one was possibly overestimating Harley/Margot’s Popularity. My thoughts were:

Both Wonder Woman and Cap Marvel were successful female-driven cbm’s

Not true. Wonder Woman performed well, because it WASN'T the SJW agenda driven garbage that Capt'n Marvel was. Wonder Woman performed well because it was a legitimately well done film, welocming everyone, the message that the left used to represent.
WW2 will be a MASSIVE hit, while a Captain Marvel film will be a massive failure. Larson got lucky that her film was positioned as a must see before Endgame. It made money only because of Endagame, and people went in, hoping that they could stomach her crap, and left the theater wishing they'd stayed home.

WB is on a hot streak with DC
Suicide Squad was a hit
nearly all comic films are a hit right now
the reviews were fantastic...

On paper, you could easily argue for it’s success. What is your thinking behind the failure? Other films have agitated fans with politics, but could that simply be it?

Suicide squad was not a hit. It was a flop.
Not all comic book movies are being well received.

Numbers don't tell the whole story on the first outing. Bay's Turtles did reasonably well right? no. It had curiosity. It was a train wreck, that everyone wanted to see, and a lot who went on blind faith. That is a one trick pony.
The US is more polarized than ever now, nobody is willing to give anything a chance. Men love the idea of the partner-in-crime, not crazy ex-girlfriend. We've all had them, want none of their crap. Women don't even like listening to other women talk about their ex.
Women who are hot to listen to other women complain about their boyfriend? Lesbians who want a shot at the wounded dove, or beta males.

Like I said, Gadot is feminine while being strong. She didn't drop her femininity to become a hero, she was a real "Wonder Woman". It wasn't the Adam Hughes Transdude. it wasn't angry Karen with a "speak to the manager" haircut. She was welcoming to all.
Gadot get's it, and more women should be modeling her example.

vicsavage

02-08-2020, 11:30 PM

"Adam Hughes transdude"?

TommyT

02-09-2020, 12:51 AM

"Adam Hughes transdude"?

https://i.imgur.com/boCcugQ.jpg

Andrew NDB

02-09-2020, 01:30 AM

Just read that the director hopes this will lead to a Harley/Poison Ivy film.
Unless it's rated xxx, I don't see it happening.

Not now. *snicker*

Not true. Wonder Woman performed well, because it WASN'T the SJW agenda driven garbage that Capt'n Marvel was. Wonder Woman performed well because it was a legitimately well done film, welocming everyone, the message that the left used to represent.
WW2 will be a MASSIVE hit

Though many signs DO point to WW2 being an SJW affair. The director saying "it is going to take the fight to the White House," with a Trump-like Max Lord in office.

while a Captain Marvel film will be a massive failure.

But look at how they're going about Captain Marvel 2. It's not even going to be Captain Marvel 2, it's going to be "Captain Marvel: Secret Invasion" (like the classic, major comic event) billed as a big "Civil War"-like event with the Skrulls and Spider-Man and Nick Fury again. So it'll bring in the bucks and they can say, "See? Everyone loves Captain Marvel!"

Suicide squad was not a hit. It was a flop.

Nah, it wasn't a flop. It doubled its production budget domestically and did another 500 million on top overseas, nearly 800 million in all... better numbers than Man of Steel on way less budget.

I know a studio only gets less than half from overseas, and even domestically they don't get all of that, but SS definitely wasn't in the red. Mostly they had a lot of critic egg on face, same as after BvS.

Like I said, Gadot is feminine while being strong. She didn't drop her femininity to become a hero, she was a real "Wonder Woman".

Agreed.

It wasn't the Adam Hughes Transdude.

Aw, c'mon. There's nothing wrong with the Adam Hughes WW. She can be buff and cut.

Gadot get's it, and more women should be modeling her example.

Israeli women are pretty amazing. I've had the pleasure of knowing a couple. Beautiful and feminine, yet they have no problem kicking your ass if need be.

Also, eh, I just came back from seeing "Birds of Prey." Greatly constructed (if overthought, overblown) action sequences. Nice to see teeth with the rating. Everything else? BAD MOVIE. As braindead as "Suicide Squad." They really thought empowerment and girl power were all this movie needed to have. They were wrong.

TommyT

02-09-2020, 01:44 AM

SJW affair. The director saying "it is going to take the fight to the White House," with a Trump-like Max Lord in office.

maybe, but so far it has the brand "good will" going for it. I stiull think the movie will be a huge success, but may not satisfy audiences. Hard to say but the movie has good momentum right now.

But look at how they're going about Captain Marvel 2. It's not even going to be Captain Marvel 2, it's going to be "Captain Marvel: Secret Invasion" (like the classic, major comic event) billed as a big "Civil War"-like event with the Skrulls and Spider-Man and Nick Fury again. So it'll bring in the bucks and they can say, "See? Everyone loves Captain Marvel!"

Really depends, but yeah, that could buoy it a little.

Nah, it wasn't a flop. It doubled its production budget domestically and did another 500 million on top overseas, nearly 800 million in all... better numbers than Man of Steel on way less budget.

All because of hype and trailer. They burned all the good will with the actual product. BOP is suffering as a result, no question. The fact that its also a **** film, well, that won't help.
SS wan't a good film, it was a box ticker, nothing more.

Aw, c'mon. There's nothing wrong with the Adam Hughes WW. She can be buff and cut.

Huges can draw pretty girls, and has lately - his early WW stuff was far to trans, and if you ask me, it was intentionally so. :lol:
He's a smart guy, and great artist, but I think he played up the amazonian aspect, and added masculine features to drive it home.

Israeli women are pretty amazing. I've had the pleasure of knowing a couple. Beautiful and feminine, yet they have no problem kicking your ass if need be.

lol.

Leo656

02-09-2020, 02:09 AM

This has been an interesting thread. Sorry I missed so much.

I like Hughes's women, even the more buff ones. My "spectrum" of female body types I personally find bang-able is very, very broad. Although sometimes it's more narrow. I've always had a crush on April Hunter, for example, but I don't think every chick should look that way, and I'm not attracted to all or even most who are. I'unno. Sometimes it's really sexy and sometimes it's a bit too much, but it depends on various things.

I might even have a book of Hughes female art, I'd have to go check. I have a few by different artists, he might be one of them.

Also, MikeandRaph, in response to your many points that I'm too tired to address in detail, I can just say that although we don't agree on all things, I like the cut of your gib and wouldn't mind having a beer and a meal with you one day while we talk about comic book nonsense and 80s wrestlers.

Also, I can't help it, bruh, I'm a wrestler. :lol: Everything is "mark", "gimmick", "work", "shoot", "iggy" and "kayfabe", even in situations that have nothing to do with wrestling. We don't say "fan", we say "mark". Just becomes a habit after a while. It *can* kinda be a negative connotation but not always; nowadays it mostly just means Huge Fan. But it CAN still mean "clueless putz", and sometimes it does. The trick is not to let the mark in question know which kinda "mark" you're talking about when you call 'em one. ;) Gotta keep that on the straight kayfabe, brotherrrrr. :tgrin:

I also sometimes dip into kizarny slang but nobody really gets it anymore. It's a lost art. And that's a shizoot. :trazz:

Also, good LORD would I love a properly-done Question movie. I think the most interesting would be the original Ditko version, simply because he was a strict Objectivist which would make him unique among other heroic types, but I doubt any studio would back that project since Objectivism is a huge no-no in liberal Hollywood. But the fact is, that's what the character was originally created to represent, and I feel it could be a very interesting thing to see in live action without necessarily demanding that the audience agree with his point of view. Point of fact is, that's how the character got over in the first place, which is what later became the foundation for Rorschach in "Watchmen". It certainly would be different and I for one would like to see it. Take that personality trait away and he's kind of less unique, aside from the no-face mask.

I like Montoya as The Question as well, but I would prefer to see the original version presented well first before moving the story forward and jumping to Sage's successor.

Andrew NDB

02-09-2020, 02:13 AM

Just want to add... yeah, killing Black Mask so definitively at the end is crazy. At the very least, this movie could have established Black Mask as a character that is out there in this universe, ripe for showing up in a later Batman movie or something, now with some history to him and some added anger.

This movie literally serves no one but Harley Quinn herself.

Leo656

02-09-2020, 02:25 AM

100% agree. And I'm sure the Harley stuff is still pretty on-point. But they could have just as well still done a good Harley-centric movie about her "moving on" from Joker without dragging a bunch of other characters down in the process.

Like I said, apparently Ewan is fun to watch, and that's fine, but 1. Of course he is, he's always fun to watch regardless of the project, and 2. He might be the "accidental star" of the whole damn shebang, but what's it matter now? He's done. Nothing to look forward to. So it's like all the fun of masturbating without the satisfaction of blowing your load, and also, you can't do it ever again. Talk about blue balls, man.

One of my few complaints about Dark Knight, was that they built up a fantastic Harvey Dent and then killed him off right when he was fully-formed. Part 3 could have been all about him and it probably would have been much better than what we got. Instead they let the Joker live, even though they knew they could never use him again, and killed off the other, also-incredible villain that they COULD have potentially done a lot more with. Just a really frustrating creative decision, and that's what this reminds me of. These movies always insist on sh*tcanning the villains just as they become the characters we know them as and actually want to see. All build-up and no release. Drives me nuts.

Andrew NDB

02-09-2020, 02:30 AM

One of my few complaints about Dark Knight, was that they built up a fantastic Harvey Dent and then killed him off right when he was fully-formed. Part 3 could have been all about him and it probably would have been much better than what we got.

And after watching Dark Knight, I was 100% sure that's what they were going to do. I didn't believe for one second he even died there until TDKR told us he did.

I've always said, the Nolan trilogy should have been a quadrilogy. It needed one more movie between 2 and 3 to really make it all work. As is, Movie #1: "I've just become Batman!" Movie #2: "I just met the Joker for the first time and put him away!" Movie #3: "I'm OLD! And retiring! Ow, my knees!"

Leo656

02-09-2020, 02:38 AM

And after watching Dark Knight, I was 100% sure that's what they were going to do. I didn't believe for one second he even died there until TDKR told us he did.

I've always said, the Nolan trilogy should have been a quadrilogy. It needed one more movie between 2 and 3 to really make it all work. As is, Movie #1: "I've just become Batman!" Movie #2: "I just met the Joker for the first time and put him away!" Movie #3: "I'm OLD! And retiring! Ow, my knees!"

:lol: Yeah, for sure. Even if they were still only three movies, they really, REALLY shouldn't have rushed the third one out to meet an arbitrary release date. That screwed the entire thing up. It's simply not in the same league as the first two, it's very rushed and sloppy by comparison on every level, from story to actual execution. I loved it in the theater but it's really mediocre in a vacuum. Not bad, just a huge drop-off from the first two, which were incredible. Story's full of holes and there's so many technical errors that you can hardly believe it's still the same guy calling the shots.

The first two, Nolan got to take his time on, and they were up his ass about the third one from the second Dark Knight became a huge hit. The entire process was different, and the final movie suffered greatly. You can see the scotch tape.

Those movies also completely and fundamentally misunderstand who Bruce Wayne is and what drives him, but that's a whole other conversation. They're still good movies, even great. But the fact that he works so hard to become Batman, then spends the rest of his time onscreen trying to get out of it, is really questionable on multiple levels. But again, that's another conversation. And the first two are still my favorite stand-alone Batman films, even if their "Bruce Wayne" was kind of muddled insofar as his motivations and sense of responsibility. Bale still crushed it.

Andrew NDB

02-09-2020, 02:45 AM

:lol: Yeah, for sure. Even if they were still only three movies, they really, REALLY shouldn't have rushed the third one out to meet an arbitrary release date. That screwed the entire thing up. It's simply not in the same league as the first two, it's very rushed and sloppy by comparison on every level, from story to actual execution. I loved it in the theater but it's really mediocre in a vacuum. Not bad, just a huge drop-off from the first two, which were incredible. Story's full of holes and there's so many technical errors that you can hardly believe it's still the same guy calling the shots.

The first two, Nolan got to take his time on, and they were up his ass about the third one from the second Dark Knight became a huge hit. The entire process was different, and the final movie suffered greatly. You can see the scotch tape.

Those movies also completely and fundamentally misunderstand who Bruce Wayne is and what drives him, but that's a whole other conversation. They're still good movies, even great. But the fact that he works so hard to become Batman, then spends the rest of his time onscreen trying to get out of it, is really questionable on multiple levels. But again, that's another conversation. And the first two are still my favorite stand-alone Batman films, even if their "Bruce Wayne" was kind of muddled insofar as his motivations and sense of responsibility. Bale still crushed it.

Now, don't get me wrong. I really love TDKR. I even like it better than TDK, but not better than BB. It's just... we're missing something here. Too soon! In the same way that BvS way, way prematurely gave us "The Death of Superman" and "The Dark Knight Returns" in movie #2 (which is ridiculous) of the DCEU, TDKR going full-on "The Dark Knight Returns" when he's barely even been Batman is laughable.

Leo656

02-09-2020, 02:50 AM

Andrew NDB

02-09-2020, 02:58 AM

Huh. I've never heard anyone say they liked DKR better than Dark Knight. That's a thinker.

It's a good movie, I just think the first two were GREAT movies. And the technical problems in the third one just really blow it for me, putting all the questionable story stuff aside. "It's daytime! It's nighttime! It's daytime again!" Sh*t was like watching the "King of the Road" match from WCW Uncensored '95. :lol: "Look! That cannon fodder bad guy just took a huge bump even though Batman never swung at him or even glanced in his direction!" Sloppy, sloppy sh*t. The first two weren't like that.

I don't remember any questionable daytime/nighttime stuff. Where are you talking about?

Yeah... there were a couple of big haymakers that seem pretty avoidable to fix. One I can think of is even in the trailers.

Mostly I just enjoy the story. It's premature, but taken as what it is, it works. It gave us a capable Bane on screen (though I still say he was miscast), Talia, Catwoman, a rendition of "Knightfall" with a lot of "The Dark Knight Returns" and somehow made it all work. Also, Zimmer at his very best.

It's just, yeah... again, too soon. Ideally this would be like movie #6 or so, or at LEAST movie #4, following a #3 where it's like Batman going crazy running a gauntlet, busting like 12 different Batman villains and being run ragged. But as-is, it worked for me beyond that internal gripe.

Leo656

02-09-2020, 03:23 AM

The chase scene after the stock market heist. I think they even publicly apologized for the multiple continuity errors in that scene, chalking it up to the movie being rushed in general.

As to the rest, I mean, it's all personal opinion so I dig it. And I agree with much of what you've said; not all, but much. I disagree about Bane being miscast, though, I think he was fine, BUT, I would have liked to see him skew more towards the "Real" Bane. Not a lackey. Full Venom. Maybe CGI some thick, ropey veins onto him or something when he "Hulks Out". I though the actor was fine, I just would have made numerous different decisions in other areas. I didn't dislike the portrayal, I just thought there was a lot that could have been done better. When I heard that the mask was like a delivery system, I figured it was just a different way of doing Venom. Instead it's just a really strong painkiller? Ehhh. Sometimes those movies skewed so close to "Realism" that they took some of the fun away. And you know I generally love realism, I just think there's wisdom in knowing when to be Real and when to be Fantastical, and the best of these types of movies straddle the line in a natural and organic way, like Man Of Steel did. Making Bane a generic Strong Man, albeit a ruthless and slightly brilliant one, felt like a missed opportunity.

I also wanted the Luchador mask. :lol: I don't give a f*ck, man. People say it's goofy, but I think it could look sinister as f*ck in the right hands, with the right presentation.

What really annoyed me, is that when I heard DKR jumped 8 years later in time, to the end of Batman's career. I'm like, "Well, that kinda sucks", because at the end of Dark Knight, everything is perfectly set up to present us the Batman Universe of the comic books, albeit much more grounded and real-life. The ending of DK felt like the beginning of a series of grand adventures, and I couldn't wait to see what came next. But they're like, "So in DKR, 8 years have passed, and he hasn't been Batman for a while..." and I'm like, well, that kinda sucks, but at least we can pretend that he had all those grand adventures and fought all the comic book villains, even if they don't show it. I didn't love that, but I was willing to compromise.

Then the movie itself is like, "Yeah, none of that happened. He quit being Batman as soon as the theater was empty after Part 2, and then Nothing Happened for 8 f*cking years." Come on, that's TERRIBLE. Yeah, you can ignore it if you really want to, but you shouldn't have to ignore official information that's given in the film itself in order to make the overall story better. They didn't need to mark that bit in stone. They should have left it nebulous so that viewers could use their imaginations about what happened in those years.

I'unno. For me, DKR is a good movie but a distant third place. I kinda like to pretend the series ended at Part 2, so I can still pretend all the cool sh*t I wanted to see actually got to happen. Plus, the first two get better for me with every rewatch, as I find new things to appreciate, while every time I watch DKR, I find more stuff wrong with it, so I purposely don't watch that one as much as the first two. I marked out huge for it on opening night, but every time since then, it loses points. I don't do it on purpose.

I agree about the score being terrific, though. That movie is a decent case of the score being able to elevate a film in a viewer's mind even if there are noticeable flaws elsewhere. Kinda like Williams's Superman score. Those movies ain't so hot on Mute. :trazz:

Andrew NDB

02-09-2020, 04:00 AM

The chase scene after the stock market heist. I think they even publicly apologized for the multiple continuity errors in that scene, chalking it up to the movie being rushed in general.

Huh. I'll have to look at that again. I have a marathon of those movies with my daughter on the docket... I'll try and clock that.

Though sh**, there is "rushing stuff" and then there is closing major highways in NYC or Chicago or wherever they were. Like stuff where the city could give hard "no"s and such. Crews of that size, the millions of dollars being bled every moment, we can't pretend to know what was going on there.

As to the rest, I mean, it's all personal opinion so I dig it. And I agree with much of what you've said; not all, but much. I disagree about Bane being miscast, though, I think he was fine, BUT, I would have liked to see him skew more towards the "Real" Bane. Not a lackey. Full Venom. Maybe CGI some thick, ropey veins onto him or something when he "Hulks Out".

For sure. Not crazily, but definitely some CGI augments. Or if they'd gone full luchador mask, then they COULD'VE just morphed him into some other truly ripped actor.

I though the actor was fine,

He was. And I hate to be the diversity guy this once, though this is like the opposite of that -- Bane IS Hispanic. Javier Bardem or someone like Javier Bardem would have been wondrous.

I just would have made numerous different decisions in other areas. I didn't dislike the portrayal, I just thought there was a lot that could have been done better. When I heard that the mask was like a delivery system, I figured it was just a different way of doing Venom. Instead it's just a really strong painkiller? Ehhh. Sometimes those movies skewed so close to "Realism" that they took some of the fun away. And you know I generally love realism, I just think there's wisdom in knowing when to be Real and when to be Fantastical, and the best of these types of movies straddle the line in a natural and organic way, like Man Of Steel did. Making Bane a generic Strong Man, albeit a ruthless and slightly brilliant one, felt like a missed opportunity.

He wasn't a generic strong man, he had a good brain. Made plans. Strategies, attacked Batman methodically.

And then later on it turned out he was just some poor puppy dog for Talia (though there could be an argument for how there was precedence for that in the "Bane of the Demon" mini comic way back). But STILL. He was solid up until that point.

I also wanted the Luchador mask. :lol: I don't give a f*ck, man. People say it's goofy, but I think it could look sinister as f*ck in the right hands, with the right presentation.

Of course. The way Graham Nolan draws it, it's chilling as all hell.

What really annoyed me, is that when I heard DKR jumped 8 years later in time, to the end of Batman's career. I'm like, "Well, that kinda sucks", because at the end of Dark Knight, everything is perfectly set up to present us the Batman Universe of the comic books, albeit much more grounded and real-life. The ending of DK felt like the beginning of a series of grand adventures, and I couldn't wait to see what came next. But they're like, "So in DKR, 8 years have passed, and he hasn't been Batman for a while..." and I'm like, well, that kinda sucks, but at least we can pretend that he had all those grand adventures and fought all the comic book villains, even if they don't show it. I didn't love that, but I was willing to compromise.

Then the movie itself is like, "Yeah, none of that happened. He quit being Batman as soon as the theater was empty after Part 2, and then Nothing Happened for 8 f*cking years." Come on, that's TERRIBLE. Yeah, you can ignore it if you really want to, but you shouldn't have to ignore official information that's given in the film itself in order to make the overall story better. They didn't need to mark that bit in stone. They should have left it nebulous so that viewers could use their imaginations about what happened in those years.

It's a poor decision, to be sure. But I can't grade TDKR based on what I would've liked them to have done, just on what is in there.

I agree about the score being terrific, though. That movie is a decent case of the score being able to elevate a film in a viewer's mind even if there are noticeable flaws elsewhere. Kinda like Williams's Superman score. Those movies ain't so hot on Mute. :trazz:

Oh god. The Donnerverse Superman movies are all terrible except maybe large parts of 2. I don't care what anybody says. But yes, Reeves was a great Superman. He just had the misfortune of being in several pretty horrible movies. IMHO, the best Superman movie we've ever gotten is the somewhat flawed "Man of Steel." Which wasn't even irreparable.

Leo656

02-09-2020, 04:53 AM

I still think Superman I outshines either version of II, although it was nice to get some real fight scenes. I mean, as a stand-alone film, the first one gives you everything important from Square One. And it's not at all a bad version of the origin, either, you can make it fit in with the comics very easily if you squint and pretend all that stuff just happened offscreen later on. The sequels screw that up by continuing to present a very "bland" and boring version of the incredibly fantastical Superman universe, but hey, they didn't have any f*cking money and I realize that. I just don't like it, and thus feel it loses it's status as "The Definitive Superman Experience" by default.

I agree with you that "Man of Steel" is objectively the best Superman movie, although probably for different reasons. For me, it's because every single frame of it is ripped directly from the comics, even if some of the details are tweaked. It goes beyond "faithful" into "reverent". Show me something, anything at all from that film, and maybe I can't tell you the issue number but I can tell you what story they pulled it from. People who say "Snyder and Goyer don't know the comics" are completely goddamn deluded, because there's nothing in the film that ISN'T from the comics, only minor details are tweaked and that's it. I'm a huge fan of fidelity, and the comic book version is my all-time favorite, particularly post-1986. My entire life, I wanted a comic book-accurate Superman film, more than I wanted air, and I finally got it. I would have maybe changed a few lines of dialog and a couple other minor things, but it's as close to perfect as we're ever gonna get.

I know you're less of a Superman fan than I am, so your reasons are likely different. But hey, I too love Green Lantern and have a soft spot for Kyle Rayner. I ever tell you about when I met Romeo Tanghal? :tgrin: Good sh*t.

Superman III and IV are indeed f*cking dreadful, though. III has a couple really good moments that would shine in a much better movie. IV is such a piece of sh*t I can hardly get through it. I can hardly believe it got MADE. I can hardly believe it was made by the same studio, within the same year, as "Masters of the Universe", which is also a flawed film but holy sh*t, it's "Lord of the Goddamn Rings" compared to Superman IV. You take one look at MOTU and then Superman IV, and you see where all the f*cking money went (what there was to start with). Goddamn Canon Films and their bullsh*t. I can't talk about Superman IV for too long, it's not good for my blood pressure.

And yeah, I like Reeve just fine as Superman, he was just scripted to say and do some very dumb things sometimes, but he looked and acted the part really well. It's not his fault that the writers gave him sh*t material after Part I. Well, actually, no... he "wrote" (as in plagiarized) the script for Superman IV. So yeah, I take it back, f*ck that guy. :trazz: Just kidding. Kinda.
-------------

Back to Batman/DKR:

- Yeah, but who wrote that scene? They did. Any logistical problems were therefore of their own making. That's like saying, "We wrote a scene where we had a guy standing on the sun, but then when we got up there it was way too hot." Okay, so just write a different scene. :lol: It's fake, you can do what you wanna do.

- Even with what IS in the movie itself, there's just a lot I don't care for. As I've said elsewhere, the whole "I just wanted to be Batman for a weekend, then retire and let other people handle it while I got pudgy and porked the chick who tried to steal my dead Mom's necklace" thing just never sat well with me. It's COMPLETELY at odds with everything they tell you in the first movie.

Batman Begins: "I HAVE to do this because The System Is Broken. Cops and politicians can't be trusted. The World Needs Batman. Only I can do this."

Dark Knight Rises: "A few guys went to jail. I guess the system works after all. Maybe I went overboard on this Avenging Ninja thing. Guess I'll grow a beard and mope." It's just... maybe "stupid" is too harsh but it's incredibly inconsistent from a character standpoint. I know they added the injuries to try and justify it further, but he got over that sh*t in all of two minutes once he felt like it and it's barely a factor after that, so yeah... kinda stupid. "Stupid" is all I got.

Although that whole, "My girl friend who wasn't my girlfriend and wasn't gonna f*ck me anyways died, so now I wanna just say f*ck it and go cry forever" is some straight-up crap, too. Like I said, as good as these movies were, and as great as they set it up with Begins, they never really understood Bruce Wayne. And you can't even argue "Well, it's just a different take", because either way it's incredibly inconsistent that he'd give up everything he'd worked for years to become, just because a few guys got arrested. Like that fixes everything. He already KNEW it didn't work like that and that's WHY he became Batman to start with! Do these movies even watch each other? :lol:

Javier Bardem as the voice of Bane would have been wonderful. I'unno why they couldn't have kept the same actor but had Bardem or someone similar do the voice. I had never thought about it before but now that you've suggested it I'm pissed we didn't get it. :lol:

MikeandRaph87

02-09-2020, 07:10 AM

https://i.imgur.com/boCcugQ.jpg

That is Lois Lane and Clark Kent cosplaying at Metropolis Comic Con. :P

MikeandRaph87

02-09-2020, 08:19 AM

Also, MikeandRaph, in response to your many points that I'm too tired to address in detail, I can just say that although we don't agree on all things, I like the cut of your gib and wouldn't mind having a beer and a meal with you one day while we talk about comic book nonsense and 80s wrestlers.

After I decided to wait to respond on a computer after I got back form my work related day trip and spent twenty minutes responding?:cry: Just messing with you.

I think we agree on most of the points I responded to. Continuing one point, which villains should die and which should survive. I think Sandman even made to be Ben's killer dying would have made it better for the plot. Having sympathy for Ben's killer when he dies? Eddie surviving to taunt Peter another day. Harvey Dent gave us what Batman Forever did not as his origin was recapped in a news broadcast. However, there was one aspect of Harvey I felt was missing, the fact he was married to Gilda instead of the made for movie triangle. Something Batman: TAS also did not include. However, it served the story so I accept it. Yes, Heath died so allowing his character to survive was not a tribute to him. Harvey should have carried over. I know that Dent's death after being Two Face for all of five minutes hurts the whole plot of The Dark Knight Rises, but it could have been altered to accommodate. Its similar to the Last Jedi argument for keeping Luke alive ( at least until Rise of Skywalker's climax) since Carrie died in real-life. I agree here.

Let me know if you want to read the three Mr. Zsasz stories, I can send you access to them in a PM.

Oh, and gentleman, we all know Hal Jordan is the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be.;) *ducks for cover*

Good point about Gal. She gets it. Its not "the force is female" crap. Its something for everyone with a woman as the lead. Aquaman is fun and has a lot of the elements remixed for everyone to enjoy. Are Gadot's and Mamoa's characters exactly taken off the page? No. Are they giving an agenda? No. Do the actors portraying them enjoy their role and primary purpose of being true to the character portrayed and giving an audience something to enjoy their goal? Yes. I am not a fan of Wonder Woman. Of the six big heroes at DC she is my least favorite. Its not because she is the lone woman of them. Its the Pagan gods and goddess and the premise of the character that is dull to me. I also think Kristen Wigg is the most overrated SNL cast member since Adam Sandler and find her annoying. However, its the way Gadot like Mamoa portrays the character that makes me buy a ticket to the film, even if its something that I will walk away thinking was "good, but not great" and Cheetah an interesting villain played by an actress I don't care for. That is the difference with "Birds of Prey" and Wonder Woman 2.

Leo656

02-09-2020, 08:38 AM

MikeandRaph87

02-09-2020, 09:09 AM

I like Hal just fine, I just know some people insist on making it a contest and Kyle was "my" Green Lantern during the 90s. I loved feeling like I was getting in on the ground floor of something. And those first few years were great.

Guy Gardner's the One True Green Lantern any damn ways. Everybody knows that. Even people who don't know it, know it once it smashes them upside the head with a giant boxing glove with his name on it. Then they never forget it.

Although Sinestro Ring Variant Guy Gardner is my favorite. He was more powerful with the Yellow Ring, after all. And he fought the ghost of Sinestro to get it. And he was answerable to no-one, and he even saved Superman and the JLA from Eclipso that one time... not that anyone really bothered to thank him for it. :tgrumble:

He's secretly been the glue holding the DCU together for ages. Not that he gets any credit for it. But he's The Man.

After all the valid reasons for why Wonder Woman is done right despite obivious built in reservations, but will go see it over "Birds of Prey" and appreciate Gadot all you get is Guy Gardner is the best of the Four Corpsmen.:trazz: I like Hal Jordan the best and like John Stewart in a supporting role. You can have your two.

Let me know about the Mr. Zsasz stories.

Gadot and Mamoa are the best parts of the DCEU.

Leo656

02-09-2020, 09:18 AM

Hah. Well, that's certainly an opinion.

I'm afraid I probably wouldn't be able to give the Zsasz stories the proper attention right now, but feel free to check back about it.

MikeandRaph87

02-09-2020, 10:07 AM

Hah. Well, that's certainly an opinion.

I'm afraid I probably wouldn't be able to give the Zsasz stories the proper attention right now, but feel free to check back about it.

4 issues, about 90 minutes of reading for proper attention. All are good if you want to see the character done well in comics.

That is what it is, an opinion nothing more. I would like to see him interact with Wally in a cross generations story, buddy story with John Stewart, and finally settle down with Carol. Don't think I will get the Wally request, likely get the John Stewart request, only teases of the committing to Carol request. Hal is outsmarting alien threats and John is getting proper focus in Justice League.

All this makes me want to read an Aquaman and Wonder Woman team up.

MikeandRaph87

02-09-2020, 04:07 PM

I also have to add that I like how we are talking on several points and little about the film itself. It shows how important this is to fans of the DC Comics. The conversation is better than the movie.

It finished a 3 + day opening with just under 33 million.
https://deadline.com/2020/02/birds-of-prey-weekend-box-office-margot-robbie-1202853768/

Andrew NDB

02-09-2020, 04:59 PM

There's nothing to talk about with the movie. The whole movie: "mumble mumble, we need emancipation, mumble mumble, girl power, mumble mumble, action stuff."

Leo656

02-09-2020, 05:21 PM

I frankly don't care one bit about things staying on topic as long as the conversation is good. To me, that's more important. And the last chunk of stuff has been very stimulating.

MikeandRaph87

02-09-2020, 05:41 PM

So on a character related topic:
Black Mask should have been sparred because of his animosity with Catwoman. He is the one and only person she ever killed in the comics. In other media she killed Bane In The Dark Knight Rises climax. I would have liked to have seen dialogue between her and Batman about that and comparing it to Bruce's allowing Ra's to die.

Also, Jeremiah Arkham took over Roman's identity and his criminal holdings after Catwoman shot Roman to death. It was never explained how that happened and Roman was brought back to life with the New 52 reboot.

There are a couple of sicker Bat Villains that are C-listers like Cornelius Strik or Professor Pyg if they are going for disgusting individuals who don't have much to them or like TMNT films, just make up new ones for the film, Lord Noriga and Walker and anti-villain Max Winter. Both Black Mask and Mr. Zsasz are not silly and are layered and dangerous while the above examples are just sick.

MikeandRaph87

02-09-2020, 05:49 PM

In campy day, in darkest knight, let those who worship agendas, beware their power, Fanboys might!

Leo656

02-09-2020, 06:06 PM

Regarding Zsasz, as I've said many times, someone could shoot "The Last Arkham" story without any changes whatsoever and it would make a billion dollars because it's that goddamn strong.

Zsasz was absolutely chilling in that. That's one of my all-time favorite Batman stories for sure. Just an absolutely brilliant piece of work. You've got mystery, suspense, horror, action, and pretty much the entire Rogues gallery (even if most of them only show up to get beaten down in that one scene where Arkham sics them all on Batman). It's got everything. It would be an incredible movie.

The only problem I see is that it would be almost impossible to top. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it.

Sumac

02-09-2020, 07:00 PM

How much time left until Harley or director of this movie will say something to the effect of: "this movie failed because of evil white men!!"

Andrew NDB

02-09-2020, 07:10 PM

How much time left until Harley or director of this movie will say something to the effect of: "this movie failed because of evil white men!!"

Probably tomorrow.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-09-2020, 09:10 PM

Probably tomorrow.

You mean Margot and Cathy haven't said it already? Tomorrow for sure.

Evil white men, my @ss. Make an accurate Birds of Prey movie with a more accurate Cassandra Cain, and I'll plunk down cash for multiple viewings. It IS possible to make female-driven movies without a bunch of slutty costumes AND still be comic accurate.

But no, go ahead and make a $hitty movie instead. :trolleye:

TommyT

02-09-2020, 09:51 PM

The woke women are on full court defence tonight. They even trotted out their bitch ass males to spew vitrol at anyone who dared to dislike this propaganda.

Andrew NDB

02-09-2020, 11:19 PM

TommyT

02-09-2020, 11:24 PM

lol... look at this. It turns out that 53% of audiences seeing the movie are actually male.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/box-office-birds-prey-grounded-333m-opening-1277792

The big girl power movie, and women it was "for" (that's what they told us) didn't even show up.

"Women don't like other women"... news at 11.

The apology tour is absurd right now. So many comic fans afraid to be honest.

Sumac

02-09-2020, 11:28 PM

The answer is obvious: internalized misogyny, i.e. women are so brainwashed by evil white males, that they believe that movies depicting "grrrrrrrrl power" sucks.

Another explanation, that most women find this movie dumb and not so much empowering as just ridiculous pastiche about everything related to feminism.

Of course, modern Twitter feminists and their male allies, can't even fathom the idea that women might not be grateful for so daring and empowering and amazing godsend piece of female empowering manifesto. Almost like immature parents who couldn't believe that their kids might find their patronage and guidance, to be infantilizing coddling.

**********
On a serious note: the main problem of all of those female empowering movies is that they can not live without making most of the males look ridiculous, useless or stupid and most female characters one note "grrrrl power" types.

Interesting thing, that I don't remember a lot of the movies (if any) staring male heroes, from the 80-s to 90-s to present, which would done the same to the female characters. Most of the big blockbusters has at least one or two women in supporting roles who play crucial roles in supporting main character, looking cool and competent while doing it, and it doesn't require them to scream every 5 minutes about "evil manliness" and "toxic masculinity" or "grrrrrrl power".

It is almost like movies, which prioritize making good characters over "right message", manage to do both: tell a good story and send a good message. Not to mention hit movies with amazing female leads, like Aliens or Terminators.

Andrew NDB

02-09-2020, 11:31 PM

I'm just peeved that of all the directions they could have gone with this movie ("Gotham City Sirens," "Harley & Joker," a PROPER "Birds of Prey" or even just a standalone "Harley Quinn" movie that didn't drag any other characters into the mud with her) they chose the least interesting and most damaging of all.

TommyT

02-09-2020, 11:36 PM

Or maybe most women who have their lives together, out grew the need to see Harley Quinn, and are more interested in normal ****.

Sure, there are a handful of women who like comics, but it's not the majority, and never will be. Its not about keeping them out, or even gatekeeping; its that most adults read BOOKS when they read, not comics. Comics are a dying market, as we all know.

Like, is anyone watching that Kaley Cucoo disaster toon about Harley Quinn?

Leo656

02-09-2020, 11:49 PM

Yeah, General Statements Are General, and don't apply to every single individual, but MOST women don't read comics OR like action movies. Thus, MOST women wouldn't give a sh*t about this to begin with.

Anecdotal, but most of my close friends are married, most of them DO like comics or action movies, but their wives don't. Their wives like Mama Mia and 13 Reasons Why and stuff. Or they watch stuff like Spartacus so they can see guys' dicks without being "trashy" enough to watch actual porn, but that's about it.

So again, anecdotal, BUT, if it happens a lot in one's own "bubble", it's not hard to see how the trend would increase exponentially when attaching a multiplier.

Women, statistically, have very specific tastes in TV, movies, reading material, and music. And that's okay. Or at least, it USED to be. People used to intrinsically accept that Men and Women were different, that they were wired differently and liked different things. And it was also accepted that some people were outliers, that a lot of boys were more "effeminate" even if they weren't gay, and a lot of girls were tomboys without being lesbians.

Now everyone is trying to make Everything "for everyone" and it simply doesn't work that way. There are things that appeal more to men and things that appeal more to women. It's not "social programming" as some would claim, it's just how people are. And that should be allowed.

Andrew NDB

02-10-2020, 12:40 AM

What do you guys figure the fallout of this will be? No more Harley movies? Total chaos behind the scenes, as is after every WB DC movie failure? Will "Flashpoint" have to do even more retconning? :)

TommyT

02-10-2020, 01:42 AM

Woke culture is getting a much needed kick in the nondescripts.

Andrew NDB

02-10-2020, 01:46 AM

Like, what can they even say now? They can't say the males didn't show up... because apparently we showed up even more than the females. Just blame it on the R rating, then? I'm really curious.

Sumac

02-10-2020, 02:49 AM

Or maybe most women who have their lives together, out grew the need to see Harley Quinn, and are more interested in normal ****.
That is exactly what I was trying to say.

All this "grrrrl power" thing is usually so far removed from actual problems
women facing in the modern Western societies, that Harley looks almost like a pastiche of a discourse and empowerment, instead being a real thing. Not to mention, that Harley character is usually presented as that endless care free teenager, which is not relevant as a role model for most women past 20.

Harley is an idealized rebel, but most people, women and men, do not live rebel life style and do not want to be like that. So using her as a figure of empowerment is kind of dubious. In general, using superheroes as your role model is dubious.

What do you guys figure the fallout of this will be? No more Harley movies? Total chaos behind the scenes, as is after every WB DC movie failure? Will "Flashpoint" have to do even more retconning? :)
They will definitely cry about "white evil males", but after that we probably will see more cancellation and reshuffling.
WB is chronically incompetent, so there is a little chance they do something right. If they couldn't fix their **** after BVS and Justice League, there is a little doubt that they will fix anything now. They will stumble around until they accidentally get things right to fail again after that once more.
Such is WB way. :lol:

Like, what can they even say now? They can't say the males didn't show up... because apparently we showed up even more than the females. Just blame it on the R rating, then? I'm really curious.
As if they can't ignore facts...

oldmanwinters

02-10-2020, 06:13 AM

Well, the obvious explanation is that it had to go up against the Oscars, the XFL debut, and the Democratic NH Presidential Primary Debate on the same weekend. Oh, and it some places the weather was really bad. So yeah, just a perfect storm as to why such an important movie didn't have room to get noticed. :tlol:

WB is chronically incompetent, so there is a little chance they do something right. If they couldn't fix their **** after BVS and Justice League, there is a little doubt that they will fix anything now. They will stumble around until they accidentally get things right to fail again after that once more.
Such is WB way.

Sums it up well.

CyberCubed

02-10-2020, 06:18 AM

I guess those other million spinoffs they planned are dead now. Remember the Jared Leto Joker and Harley spinoff they had planned a few years ago? That was dead after Jared Leto went nuts.

I wonder if that rumored Batgirl film by Joss Whedon is dead now too.

oldmanwinters

02-10-2020, 06:53 AM

Ooh, here's some rationalizing!
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/5-reasons-why-birds-prey-210151335.html

Love that "Harley Quinn" isn't as popular as we thought conclusion. Also, "R-Rating" curse and... the Oscars!

MikeandRaph87

02-10-2020, 08:08 AM

My work colleague thought it was a good movie if you just wanted to see something goofy and Black Mask and Mr. Zsasz are not gay together but grotesque with a touch of zany and die in humorous fashion. He found it odd I skipped the film.

Andrew NDB

02-10-2020, 11:01 AM

Come to think of it, they can't point to the R-rating. Think about it. "Suicide Squad" was PG-13 and came out in 2016... it's 2020 now, so anyone who was 13 then would be 17 now. Meaning, they can watch R-rated movies now, and any of "Harley's fans who couldn't go and see her in 'Birds of Prey' because of the rating."

oldmanwinters

02-10-2020, 11:39 AM

AquaParade

02-10-2020, 11:54 AM

It never ceases to amaze me how different the passage of time is when you're a kid. Movies always reimburse that realization for me.

You're saying that kids who saw Suicide Squad at 13 are now (potentially) seeing BOP at 17?? It's so bizarre, because as a child, those feel like such distinct points in your life, due to all the maturation & changes going on obviously, but for an adult, it feels like SS just came out yesterday. Not much has changed. At least it feels that way. Probably a good reminder to keep your life chugging along in new and interesting directions so as to avoid that feeling.

oldmanwinters

02-10-2020, 12:07 PM

Andrew NDB

02-10-2020, 12:18 PM

Yeah, that's pretty bonkers. Like, I could attend all 4 years of high school in the time between "Suicide Squad" and "Birds of Prey."

Yeesh. What a waste.

IMJ

02-10-2020, 01:08 PM

Part of the problem is that DC is chasing what they think tracks as successful instead of following the plan initially outlined as of Man of Steel. WB/DC could've stayed the course and just continued making the evolutions needed to make their movies better, ala Shazam. But instead, they panicked and basically have thrown **** at the wall to see what sticks and now they have a wall covered in **** with a few moderate successes.

DC needs:
-a bright and hopefully Superman movie. Think something that combines Superman II and Man of Steel but maybe with Darkseid. Just do it. DC pulled James Gunn for an absolutely stupid IP like Suicide Squad, but they could've given him Superman.
-a Batman movie more akin to Tim Burton's stuff, but with a Batman that moves more akin to Affleck's Batman
-a legit GL movie without "Tron costumes" and before Marvel goes all-in on Nova. And let's just use Jon Stewart - he's a great, fleshed out character that already has pop culture exposure
-another WW success
-a fun Flash flick with stakes, and maybe include a nice action cameo with Cyborg because he was great in JLA and he and Flash made a great pair

Now, while all of that may be true, I'd also say that the failure of this flick can also be directly correlated to the woke nonsense about it projected in recent cast interviews and other advertising for it.

Yeah, that's pretty bonkers. Like, I could attend all 4 years of high school in the time between "Suicide Squad" and "Birds of Prey."

Yeesh. What a waste.

I've had many epiphanies and moments of clarity like this across my life. I hate it, but it's also eye opening.

Andrew NDB

02-10-2020, 01:17 PM

DC pulled James Gunn for an absolutely stupid IP like Suicide Squad, but they could've given him Superman.

No, they wanted him to do a Superman movie but he turned them down to do "The Suicide Squad" instead:

https://www.newsarama.com/48452-james-gunn-turned-down-superman-for-the-suicide-squad.html

Similarly, Abrams being given a mega-millions deal and then offered Superman and Green Lantern but going with... eh, Justice League Dark.

lol, WB needs to be more assertive. "Gunn, you're f***ing doing Superman and that's it, case closed. Abrams, get a good writer that's not named Abrams or Johns and get the f*** to work on Green Lantern. I want a shooting script in 4 months."

AquaParade

02-10-2020, 01:54 PM

I love what DC is doing right now. Not everything will be a winner but there will be large helpings of greatness and variety.

If DC were to go all in on a shared universe, they'd have to homogenize. That means, with Fox under Marvel, we'd be essentially getting two types of tones for comic book movies - Marvel or DC.
Again, DC is giving us so much variety at this point, between Joker, BOP, and WW. It would be a shame to lose that type of variety.

Image, Dark Horse, etc. adaptions aside, which, to be fair, will likely become more common, and help accentuate the variety of flavors we need.

Now, who is to say that DC/WB can't have that variety alongside a shared cinematic universe?
Well, no one I suppose. And if Wonder Woman 84 and Shazam are indeed set in the Man of Steel/BvS/JL universe, then it appears they are already doing that. I suppose that universe does need a Batman and Superman, which is where things get messy.

TommyT

02-10-2020, 02:25 PM

No, they wanted him to do a Superman movie but he turned them down to do "The Suicide Squad" instead:

https://www.newsarama.com/48452-james-gunn-turned-down-superman-for-the-suicide-squad.html

Similarly, Abrams being given a mega-millions deal and then offered Superman and Green Lantern but going with... eh, Justice League Dark.

lol, WB needs to be more assertive. "Gunn, you're f***ing doing Superman and that's it, case closed. Abrams, get a good writer that's not named Abrams or Johns and get the f*** to work on Green Lantern. I want a shooting script in 4 months."

Nobody wants Superman. They are trying to kill the patriarchy, not join it. :lol::lol::lol:

Autbot_Benz

02-10-2020, 03:15 PM

At Least Death Battle gave some dignity back to Black Canary

t4QRH0CRjb4

Andrew NDB

02-10-2020, 03:22 PM

Nobody wants Superman. They are trying to kill the patriarchy, not join it. :lol::lol::lol:

Ugh.

Come to think of it, looking at that exact quote from Gunn: "As has been reported many times, DC offered me whatever film I wanted to do, including some sort of Superman movie (not specifically Man of Steel 2 as I've seen reported)."

I wonder what kind of Superman movie was it they wanted him to make? "Lois & Cuckman"? Something else?

AquaParade

02-10-2020, 03:24 PM

Maybe a "Superman & Son" film.

"Oh, you like your son, do you Abrams? Have we got a project for you!"

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-10-2020, 03:49 PM

Ugh.

Come to think of it, looking at that exact quote from Gunn: "As has been reported many times, DC offered me whatever film I wanted to do, including some sort of Superman movie (not specifically Man of Steel 2 as I've seen reported)."

I wonder what kind of Superman movie was it they wanted him to make? "Lois & Cuckman"? Something else?

You can read a lot into that exact quote. And it's not necessarily a reach, given all we're seeing.

Leo656

02-10-2020, 04:52 PM

I don't really agree that a shared universe would have choked all the variety out of things. I mean, a little bit, yeah, but not entirely. The initial plan was actually to always let each character's movie be unique to itself, with the appropriate tone and stylization, but that it simply would be clearly part of the same shared universe because there'd be some character cross-over and references to things happening in other films. And they had some limited success with that before everything went tits-up and they panicked.

For example, people adore Wonder Woman, with good reason, but it's still very clearly in line with Snyder's MoS/BvS set-up and apes a lot of the style if not the tone (which makes sense, because WW is set before Darkseid's resurgence in the modern day, which is what MoS/BvS were directly building to). The flashback/history lesson stuff about Ares and Zeus is very similar to stuff from MoS, and a bunch of the dialog between Diana and Ares is almost word-for-word lifted from the Superman/Zod scenes. Absolutely none of that was by accident, and it didn't hurt WW one bit as a solo affair. It just helped it to fit neatly in with Snyder's films while still being its own thing. Suicide Squad was also completely different from MoS and BvS while still clearly being set in the same universe. They were definitely on the path to creating a very rich tapestry while still letting each piece be its own thing.

I've always wanted to see the DCU I recognize from the comics on the big screen, and I'm disappointed that we can't have that because of a bunch of various things. Maybe one day. But having a bunch of unconnected films doesn't exactly thrill me because I'd rather have one good Joker that appears in multiple films, for example, than like three different ones appearing in three completely disconnected films. People aren't completely ignorant but it's STILL confusing for the casual audience who doesn't follow these developments obsessively; they see Phoenix in "Joker" and immediately assume he's gonna be fighting Pattinson soon. It's not really the best situation.

I strongly feel that if they had a COHERENT plan in place, and stuck to it instead of being wishy-washy and overreacting to things, they could still have everything connected while still letting each individual film be as good as it can possibly be. I mean, we've seen it. Wonder Woman is great. Aquaman is great. Shazam is really good. They're each just about perfect for what they should be, and they ARE still connected to the existing template, even if it's only loosely, and that's perfectly fine. The connective tissue doesn't have to be overwhelming, it could be subtle.

They could pull it off if they wanted to, without sacrificing any "freedom" or "creativity" or "uniqueness". They could have it all, they're just a bunch of nitwits who shift gears with every passing cloud.

MikeandRaph87

02-10-2020, 05:44 PM

What is the deal with Black Canary in the film? She looks nothing like Black Canary! Rachel Skarsten could have gotten an unexpected second shot like Brandon Roth did as Superman with playing Black Canary. She could have been Black Canary in her prime, but DC wants to go other routes.

Leo, I sent you the issues I referred to you for reading up on Mr. Zsasz.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-10-2020, 05:50 PM

If only the Man of Steel conclusion could be reached from this film...

"Nobody cares about Harley Quinn, that's why the movie underperformed. So no sequels ever, okay?"

But it won't. Audiences will be blamed instead.

Andrew NDB

02-10-2020, 05:54 PM

This is probably it for Harley Quinn herself, though, yeah? I know she's got a small part in "The Suicide Squad," but I don't see them doing anything else with the character.

AquaParade

02-10-2020, 05:58 PM

Yeah, I suppose WB/DC wouldn’t have to conform to the same standards as Marvel necessarily. And some would argue that there is a ton of variety in the MCU. Not me, but there is room for debate there I suppose.

For instance, I wouldn’t have a problem seeing Joaquin Phoenix in a Batman movie with a slightly different tone than “Joker”. That’s the sort of drastic tonal shift we get in comics, so as long as it’s not mid-story, I can see it working. Joaquin/Joker may not be the best example, but the point is that they could probably reap the benefits of a shared universe while keeping things interesting and unique if they play their cards right.

I still feel that they sort of do have those benefits going on now. The Snyder-verse is still chugging, right? With supplemental films like Joker existing alongside it.

Leo656

02-10-2020, 06:27 PM

I'd love to see more Phoenix "in-universe" because he's good, but as many have pointed out, there'd need to be a "bridge" movie that carries him closer to the Joker as seen in the comics. We saw his slide into madness but he's still not The Guy yet. If he suddenly just showed up fully-formed in a Batman movie, that'd be weird. But he'd be a good "proper" Joker with just a little bit more story. They could get there if they want.

We'll see. I mean one way or the other someone's gonna do a DCU shared universe eventually, I just don't wanna be 80 years old or dead when it happens. We were so close.

Leo656

02-10-2020, 06:49 PM

Leo, I sent you the issues I referred to you for reading up on Mr. Zsasz.

Thanks, but next time please wait for permission before doing so. That put my Inbox at 100% so now when I get a chance I'm gonna have to write that stuff down and then delete the message, and in the meantime if anyone tries to PM me it'll bounce.

I've mentioned this before - and I'm aware that it's a Me problem - but my inbox is always at 99% because I just don't have time to go through it. But I try and keep a couple spots open for Serious Stuff.

Anyone can leave a message on my Wall if they want to reach me directly and it's nothing too private/personal, that's fine.

Thanks though. I appreciate it, but please check first before PMing me from now on. That's for everyone, not just you. :)

oldmanwinters

02-10-2020, 07:07 PM

Whelp, I guess they can't realize blame The Oscars for sucking away all their potential viewership either...
https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/oscars-ratings-all-time-low?fbclid=IwAR26G5KbqRjwteXKSJTGYywxKdIeldITyMoY7 qDzP7x8qlqq-UXx02ljdz4

:tlol:

MikeandRaph87

02-10-2020, 07:14 PM

Thanks, but next time please wait for permission before doing so. That put my Inbox at 100% so now when I get a chance I'm gonna have to write that stuff down and then delete the message, and in the meantime if anyone tries to PM me it'll bounce.

I've mentioned this before - and I'm aware that it's a Me problem - but my inbox is always at 99% because I just don't have time to go through it. But I try and keep a couple spots open for Serious Stuff.

Anyone can leave a message on my Wall if they want to reach me directly and it's nothing too private/personal, that's fine.

Thanks though. I appreciate it, but please check first before PMing me from now on. That's for everyone, not just you. :)

I had that issue until about 2 years ago myself and deleted all that were a part of a thread. Also, I could not remember who it was who had the issue currently. Had I remembered I would have gone to the wall. The only reason why I did not post it publicly is because of the gray area of posting links of free reads for the public to see. Not wanting to violate anything I went PM.

Leo656

02-10-2020, 07:21 PM

MikeandRaph87

02-10-2020, 07:50 PM

Understood, no problem.

Some of the messages are of high sentimental value and thus will have to be kept, and some are just clutter, but I simply haven't had a chance in about 5 or 6 years to really take a couple hours and sort it properly. Thanks for understanding. I know I really should get to it.

I have emails that I have kept well over over a decade now for the same reason.

It took from December 2011 to February 2018 for me to get around to clearing up my Technodrome inbox.

If you want I can repost the links to you on the wall. It is technically not public.

Autbot_Benz

02-10-2020, 09:14 PM

Warners Retitled the movie to Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey to try and help with the low numbers.

Andrew NDB

02-10-2020, 09:15 PM

Warners Retitled the movie to Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey to try and help with the low numbers.

They did? Just now?

Autbot_Benz

02-10-2020, 09:16 PM

They did? Just now?

ya at the theater chains its being reported on twitter.

DiscussingFilm
@DiscussingFilm
‘Birds of Prey’ has been re-titled ‘Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey’ on movie theater websites.

oldmanwinters

02-10-2020, 09:19 PM

Warners Retitled the movie to Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey to try and help with the low numbers.

Huh, I was curious why some people on social media were calling this "Harley Quinn." I'm familiar with movies receiving subtitles once they arrive on "home video," but this is definitely a strange one to do it in the movie's 2nd week in theatres.

So is the unofficial or official title now Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey (and the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn)?

Fun Fact: I think the movie First Blood is now officially known as Rambo: First Blood (https://www.amazon.com/Rambo-First-Blood-Blu-ray-Digital/dp/B00QSHWZ6Q/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=first+blood&qid=1581391464&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzNVQwTjgyQTBGNUpPJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMTY4Mjk2MzlMS1NIUVNEU0FUNCZlbmN yeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMzM3MDY1UzNMUUtDSzRNUVkmd2lkZ2V0T mFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3R Mb2dDbGljaz10cnVl) by the studio for digital sales. That is one very confused series of movie titles.

Andrew NDB

02-10-2020, 09:59 PM

For sure, we haven't even gotten First Blood Part 3 yet, or Rambo 1 or 2. We're missing whole movies!

But that's just them for categorizing purposes. I'm sure if you ask Stallone what's the title of the first movie he'll say it'll always be "First Blood."

Then there's copyright reasons in titles. Like, I didn't even realize GB2016 was legally "Ghostbusters: Answer the Call" until later.

Autbot_Benz

02-10-2020, 10:08 PM

Update on the #BirdsofPrey title change: It's apparently for display/search purposes only for vendors and theaters, not an official title change. Just to clarify for those of you writing about it. 🤷🏻*♀️

TommyT

02-10-2020, 10:12 PM

#whatsyourstrippername

Jester

02-11-2020, 03:08 PM

Gotta love how Cats paved the way for studios to patch movies that seem to be tanking, but isnt it too early to call BoP a bomb? It's been out for less than a week.

Andrew NDB

02-11-2020, 03:13 PM

but isnt it too early to call BoP a bomb? It's been out for less than a week.

Technically, yes. But beyond the occasional miracle, the general expectation is that any movie will do about half the box office in weekend #2 as in weekend #1 (and then drop expotentially from there). That won't save the movie, and general tracking is that it'll drop even more than 50%.

TommyT

02-11-2020, 05:18 PM

Technically, yes. But beyond the occasional miracle, the general expectation is that any movie will do about half the box office in weekend #2 as in weekend #1 (and then drop expotentially from there). That won't save the movie, and general tracking is that it'll drop even more than 50%.

Valentines day may help, but after this weekend, it's over.

Andrew NDB

02-11-2020, 05:23 PM

Sumac

02-11-2020, 05:35 PM

That what I was talking about.

I wonder, is this guy suffered problems in his relationship and decided to have support from women, by playing role of obedient "male feminist"?

TommyT

02-11-2020, 05:38 PM

Might be a good time to remind everyone that

Men like women, and women like men.
Men hate bitches, and women hate douchebags.

Everyone, however, hates a bad movie.

AquaParade

02-11-2020, 05:47 PM

Andrew NDB

02-11-2020, 05:52 PM

Wow, those are the worst takes I've ever seen, Andrew. Who blames people for not wanting to see a movie? And Mr. Conway basically runs with "you must be immature if you are a comic book fan who doesn't want to see this." Just bizarre.

I was even expecting this kind of thing, yet it's still so flabbergasting. It really is like arguing against an idealogy, or a religion, at this point.

oldmanwinters

02-11-2020, 06:10 PM

Autbot_Benz

02-11-2020, 06:16 PM

These nuts need to realize some of us Comic Book Fans have respect for our favorite characters and won't go to a movie that utterly butchers said characters.

Sumac

02-11-2020, 07:26 PM

So, people call you immature if you read comic books, but they also call you immature if you won't go to a movie to see a comic book based movie? Huh?

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

02-11-2020, 07:29 PM

Leo656

02-11-2020, 10:07 PM

That one "adeline" nitwit who went on a giant Twitter rant in that article sums it up perfectly.

1. "I'm a huge fan of the comics and these characters, just like you!"
2. "This movie is at risk of failing because of Evil Misogynist Gatekeeping and NO other reason!"

No. NO. You're a f*cking liar. No one is afraid of vaginas, and you are NOT "a fan". You did not "grow up on these characters". Or maybe you did and figured nothing was important except the names, and that's stupid. IF you grew up on these stories and characters, then you would understand exactly why people are so pissed off at this movie that they're avoiding it. Because these beloved characters are bastardized, poorly-done "In Name Only" versions that do a disservice not just to the characters, but to the fans of said characters. And I hate to use the term "Real Fan", but I have no choice. "Real Fans" want to see the characters they already like, and to see them display the traits and attributes and be placed in situations that made them popular in the first place.

Goddamn it, you can put a cat in the oven but that don't make it a biscuit. And you can hire some producer's niece and call her "Cassandra Cain", but if you don't actually Do The Work and respect your f*cking audience then guess what? People aren't going to reward you for it.

"I don't care if every single thing is different from the comics that I swear I really am a fan of you guys! What REALLY matters, though, is that Hollywood needs more vaginas." :roll: Go to Hell, do not pass Go.

I bet you ANY amount of money that if they had made TWO movies, one about Harley and one about BoP, and BOTH of those movies actually presented the characters and situations more faithfully, it wouldn't matter how many vaginas there were. I bet you any amount of money that they BOTH would have done alright business, because the characters and stories in the books are strong. They don't need any tinkering.

"Tinkering" is why the movie isn't going to succeed. Not "gatekeeping", "evil men", "fear of women", no. NO. The movie is going to fail, or at least under-perform, because some idiot got the idea, long before THIS movie, that "As long as we keep the names the same, we can change everything else and people will still show up and applaud. Because they're stupid."

That kind of thinking CAN NOT be allowed to persist. One day, someone is gonna pitch a TMNT project (they likely already have) where they're human teenagers who become Turtles through some silly mess of circumstances. And we'll all bitch and moan, and rightfully so, because we all know that's NOT how the story goes. But "They" think it doesn't matter.

We have to show them that it does. And based on what I'm reading - A WHOLE lot of, "Well, I would've seen it if it didn't ruin my favorite character, ______!" - that's what is happening.

Respect your audience and earn their trust, they might actually give you money. Tell them "It doesn't matter anyway", they'll give you the finger. It's not too difficult.

"In Name Only" style "adaptations" are trash and deserve to be dismissed. End of story.

Andrew NDB

02-11-2020, 10:23 PM

That one "adeline" nitwit who went on a giant Twitter rant in that article sums it up perfectly.

Did you follow to her Twitter? After all the backlash she got she threw her hands up and said, "Uninstalling Twitter... this ap is a time suck!"

Leo656

02-11-2020, 10:34 PM

I don't have Twitter, never saw any use for it. For me personally, I mean. Although I think it's kind of a waste in general, I know that a lot of famous people use it. I'm barely "recognized at the mall by my house once in a while by someone who saw me wrestle once or twice" famous, nobody cares what I think. Therefore I don't need Twitter.

I can understand why some people might want to know what Patrick Stewart had for breakfast, or what The Rock thought about the latest episode of Ru Paul's Drag Race, or whatever. *I* don't care, and I honestly think it's stupid that anyone WOULD care, but I know some people care.

But I don't think anyone, anywhere, should care what "Becky From Long Island" or "Stan From Syracuse" thinks about absolutely anything. The biggest problem with the internet and things like social media is that it rewards people for being narcissists. "Everyone listen to what I have to say!" Um... no? Who are you? Like I give a f*ck. :lol:

Twitter is for narcissists.

Andrew NDB

02-11-2020, 10:40 PM

I've had a Twitter for years but I don't tweet. Way too public.

Leo656

02-11-2020, 10:48 PM

I misspoke, I once DID set one up under my real name for work in like 2011 because it was "the new company policy", but nobody ever used it and we all just forgot about it.

Like, who cares and why bother? What am I gonna put on there, training tips? People PAY me for that. Who's gonna be paying any attention, my clients? I can just text them or talk to them in person tomorrow.

A lot of wrestlers use it, but frankly they shouldn't, and even in WWE they have "social media classes" that basically come down to, "STOP filming yourself naked or having sex, for f*ck's sake, and don't say anything we don't explicitly tell you to say, because we are a publicly traded company and you people are just terrible at NOT saying stupid sh*t in public. So just don't. If we want 'you' to Tweet, we'll do it for you." Which sort of defeats the whole purpose, no? But every time someone DOES go into business for themselves, they make themselves look like an idiot and sometimes they get fired.

I really, truly see no good whatsoever from everyone being so "connected" the way they are. All it does is get people in trouble, from what I've seen. It's actually advisable to stay quiet MOST of the time. Especially when people lose their jobs over saying out loud who they voted for, and sh*t like that.

"Follow me on Twitter!" = "Please tell me I'm special and important!" You're not. I'm not. Nobody is. The whole thing is silly.

IMJ

02-12-2020, 12:02 AM

Birds of Prey Fans and Punisher Creator Gerry Conway Blame Film’s Poor Opening on Men and Misogyny (https://boundingintocomics.com/2020/02/10/birds-of-prey-fans-and-punisher-creator-gerry-conway-blame-films-poor-opening-on-men-and-misogyny/)

I think it was here somewhere that I talked about negative information a bit. This is a perfect example of this, when these people take these positions. Remember - negative information, like a photograph negative, is not "bad information", but rather information that you don't easily see - the opposite of positive information or that which is basically "in your face".

My point?

These fools must not realize that they are calling the entire world misogynists. Because if the movie didn't make any money, that means that no one went to see it. But these f'n fools don't recognize the number of people that didn't see the movie, instead the only recognize those that did in their bias.

If these people had any real brains, in situations like these they would be asking the whole world "why didn't you see it?" instead of confirming anything with the people that did see it.

Andrew NDB

02-12-2020, 12:07 AM

I misspoke, I once DID set one up under my real name for work in like 2011 because it was "the new company policy", but nobody ever used it and we all just forgot about it.

Like, who cares and why bother? What am I gonna put on there, training tips? People PAY me for that. Who's gonna be paying any attention, my clients? I can just text them or talk to them in person tomorrow.

Well, you've seen my FB. I post about movie reviews, occasionally "look at this funny thing my cat did!" or so on. That's about it. Maybe somebody cares about it, or maybe everybody doesn't. I don't care.

Twitter stuff, though, you have to be careful. First thing HR does these days is scan over all public stuff of yours in social media. Even from years back. For me, all they'd really find is me arguing about Star Trek: Picard or snarky movie stuff, but other people post crazy stuff that they shouldn't.

I think it was here somewhere that I talked about negative information a bit. This is a perfect example of this, when these people take these positions. Remember - negative information, like a photograph negative, is not "bad information", but rather information that you don't easily see - the opposite of positive information or that which is basically "in your face".

My point?

These fools must not realize that they are calling the entire world misogynists. Because if the movie didn't make any money, that means that no one went to see it. But these f'n fools don't recognize the number of people that didn't see the movie, instead the only recognize those that did in their bias.

If these people had any real brains, in situations like these they would be asking the whole world "why didn't you see it?" instead of confirming anything with the people that did see it.

They're not speaking from a place of reason, simply of emotion and self-righteousness.

Coola Yagami

02-12-2020, 12:15 AM