In honor of Challenger
 

To the crews of Challenger, Columbia, and all Astronauts and Cosmonauts who have given their lives in the pursuit of knowledge.

http://homepage.mac.com/joebergeron/...challenger.jpg

http://coop.jsc.nasa.gov/photo/2003/...issing_man.jpg


"Sometimes when we reach for the stars, we fall short, but we must pick ourselves up again and press on despite the pain," he said. "Our nation is indeed fortunate that we can still draw on an immense reservoir of courage, character and fortitude - that we are still blessed with heroes like those of the space shuttle Challenger. Man will continue his conquest of space. To reach out for new goals and ever greater achievements, that is the way we shall commemorate our seven Challenger heroes." - President Reagan, to NASA workers and Challenger astronaut families at the Johnson Space Center.

I say we should care about people on earth and earthy problems before we shoot people to the moon. The moon will still be there when the world's saved.

Those were wasted lives, if you ask me.

Way to kill the room, cheif.

I do my best, but I really can't stand the whole "They died a heroic death"-blahblah. Their deaths weren't heroic, they were a waste. Those were good scientists who could've used their brains to help mankind on earth, but instead they're told that some dead rock floating around in the sky which will still be around in a thousand years is more important than anything earth has to offer. So they are shot up there and they explode. And then of course, you see people waving flags and parades for them, to honour them... and yet, nobody's been helped. We still sit here with nuclear weapons, starving people, working poor and wars raging everywhere.

But yeah, if that's heroism, dying a useless death, then those were real heroes. Wasted potential, money and people... pure heroism.

I agree with Anarky, we should solve the planets problems, but that still doesnt mean we should stop our exploration of space, if we have the resources to do it. It is my opinion to continue space exploration to advance our technology and research levels.

Now about the moon, depending on whether or not we have the resources we should build a permanent presence there. If we dont...The Chinese certainly will. And what Im going to say may offend some...but I really dont care, they are my opinions. I for one dont fancy the fact of having a Chinese base over my head that may have weapons pointed at me. As far as im concerned, We set foot on the moon first, so we have rightfull claim.

Once we have a presence on the moon, that could be the first step in colonizing the solar system, lord knows that would help relieve the overpopulation of this planet.

Yeah, right. And I'm older than a lot of people I hate. What allows them to stay on my planet? I don't want them here, I have a rightful claim, let's shoot them!

And the chinese have other things to worry about that a moonbase.

I have an idea, let's shoot more people into space and let them blow up there. Then there will be hundreds starving and the overpopulation-problem's solved. Rather macabre, eh?

Sure, space travel and stuff are really interesting, but space will be there forever. We could all cut back on that stuff until some of the most urgent things (like wars, water and hunger) are gone.

I really wouldn't spend any time worrying about anyone's presence on the moon.

Except for Rita and Lord Zedd.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...eddandRita.jpg

They'z crazy.

...It's morphin time!

I respect your views Anarky, I agree in part..but not in whole. Explorers always take immense risks, Im just glad there are those who choose to take them on. Im not saying that the U.S. government always makes the right decisions, no government does, but I feel space sciences will advance us more than hinder us, The Astronauts were scientists doing their jobs and they were let down by bueracracy that got complacent in the routine of Shuttle launchings. Shuttle launchings are not routine nor should they ever be. Humans are being sent into the most hostile environment there is just as scientists who explore the oceans.

You'll Pay For This Captain Planet

...Kind of need to remove that middle plane in the bright flash of light, you know...just for reallistic effect, heh heh...

...Yeah, it was a waste of lives, ill preperation, theres' no heroism to be found in tragic accidents, even ones of that magnitude. Space should be the next frontier, maybe forging "inspirations" out of these accidents motivates new astronaughts, heck it probably does, but that does'nt mean its' right

What we do in space is help people here on Earth. Many experiments performed in the space stations and shuttles center around medical and agricultural research. In fact, many of today's scientific advancements have come from space travel. To say that these people died a worthless death is a very grave accusation, as well. They knew the risks. They knew the benefits. They died doing what they loved to do.

Twenty years... has it been so long?

I have healthy respect for those who died. They knew the risks, but they went on and did it anyway. They trained for a good portion of their lives to be able to do so. They were there because they wanted to be. Not to mention how sad it was that the teacher who was on board was watched being blown to bits live by her whole school...

Wait until war, hunger, etc. are over, pshaw. Those problems aren't going anywhere as long as there are stupid people in the world. Might as well let scientists learn about the world and space around us.

Even if you don't respect what the astronauts were doing, they are lives tragically lost all the same. I know that simply invites a spiel about how lives are lost everyday in dark corners where most don't see, which is true. But that doesn't make these people any less worthy of mourning.

I'm sorry, but by that logic everyone who has died without at least finding a cure for cancer has died in vain. I'm not neccesarily saying they should be hailed as heroes, but to say their lives were wasted is a bit extreme. No-one has the right to judge others like that.

Why go to the moon? Why experiment with anything? Why should it matter that anyone explore anything that isn't OBVIOUSLY practical? History of science and discovery. You never know how much something can help until you apply it. We just can't predict how much a discovery could change our lives for the better. Also, a lot of the technology that goes into space programs in turn makes its way to the public. SO many examples. Let me find my physics teacher, first. :)

However, I believe in the "build up, not out" theory -- I'm for exploration, but before we sprawl ourselves across the solar system, I agree, it would definitely help to solve problems here at home. So both are important.

EDIT: You can thank the DoD and the Arms Race for the internet. Space and Defense programs encouraged investment and exploration into such technology before people even IMAGINED the world wide web, or what a fast and highly efficient (near-instantaneous) communications system could do to help people communicate globally. We wouldn't have a TECHNODROME if it weren't for the government wasting its money.

That reminded me of an old joke. Veeeery old:

The Soviets landed on the Moon and painted it all red - as a symbol of communist victory over the capitalist world. The Americans were furious but came up with a brilliant idea. Soon, they landed on the Moon as well and painted "Coca-Cola" white logo on the red background. The Soviets were furious this time.

Ahem... sorry, I just had to write it :D

Back on topic a little - the Chinese on the Moon? Possible but not likely. I agree their cosmic programme may appear rather ambitious and they are clearly striving for their presence on our only natural satellite, but they are dealing with so many internal problems now (and will deal with even more of them in the future) that they just won't made it.

Besides, locating any arms on the Moon would be just a total waste of capital and effort in my opinion, as the Moon ain't a strategically good place for bombarding the other countries. Earth's orbit, yes, I concur. But not the Moon.

That would require trillions of dollars to invest and helluva time (a few decades, methinks) to built up a tiny colonies on the other planets that could adapt their rather unfriendly environments.
By this time, the problem of overpopulation is going to solve itself. By means of local wars.

hmmm. Challenger. I remember well where I was that day...in 4th grade, having a spelling test. such a tragedy *shakes head*.

I spent a good chunk of my life in Huntsville, AL. They make the shuttle solid rocket boosters there. at the time Thiokal was in charge of it, contracted out to NASA. As an adult, I had the pleasure of having the lead engineer on the SRB team from back then as a customer of mine at a bank i worked for. He used to tell me the most interesting stories as i went over his stock portfolio :)

I'll never forget how haunted he was by the deaths of those astronauts. I think it was right after the Colombia disaster, he came in and sat down and looked like he just needed to talk about Challenger again...you see, it was his call that the shuttle was good to go that day, even though some of his lower level engineers were concerned. He said he was always haunted by the fact that he did not press things further...but he did the best with what he had. the launch was within their known perameters.

Those astronauts went in the shuttle because they loved the idea of seeing things no one had seen before, doing things that could help people back home. I think they were heros.

Noone is a hero for being blown to kingdom come, heroes have to do something that truly inspires the american cosmonaught, braving the dangers of a jagged edge, in any substantial metaphore, makes someone just look reckless, what if one of those engineers got to one of them, and they backed out on their more reliable word? Would they be heroes then for staying alive? No, only in the eyes of the sane.

If the engineer did'nt listen to the people who clearly were down there working on the shuttle and knews things were awry, both he and the people he was answering to are common murderors.

I'm glad of all the sensitivity in this thread. Cynical people make my day. :roll:

So you expect me to lie in order to be conform to the general "They were heroes"-blahblah. I tell you what, I do feel bad about hte people that died, just as I feel bad about everybody who dies I don't know. But everyone waving a stupid flag and wearing a silly head and a t-shirt "I *heart* heroes" is just some brainwashed moron. Those people don't have anything from those people at parades. They'd have more if they weren't blown to pieces. Now, I'm not saying that they were sent to death and that they didn't know the risks, I simply say that the doctors and scientists blown to bits in those explosions, they could have used their potential in another way, helping people in a different form.

And no, I'm not cynical, if I was I'd be talking about shooting someone. I am just being honest. And that's also why I don't write "Oh, I'm sorry for his/her family" when some so-called star dies, because I'm not. Simple as that. I'm not sorry for them dying. They died, so what? None of my business, is it? Their lives wouldn't be any of our business so their death isn't.

But you all can be as shallow as you want, wave on your flag. Just don't expect me to take part in it. Don't expect me to tell you I feel sorry for something I don't feel sorry for, that I should support something I don't or that I should say something I don't want to say.

Well... they did die... in the pursuit of knowledge. That's why we explore space. Because we don't know what's out there, and we want to learn. Not live isolated in ignorance of reality around us.

However... as existentialism and general snobbery seem to be the latest intellectual trend... knowledge of anything "outside" is irrelevant, correct? Ah, the enlightenment of the dark ages... Expand knowledge. Once, it was viewed as Teufelswerk. Then, as ages went on... learning and exploring came to be treasured -- then overdone as entire cultures were wiped out by others.

Learning? Teufelwerk? Or a Holy Crusade? Probably a middle line would be best. I'm thankful for those who risked getting zapped by lightning bolts, who probed behind their own eyeballs to find the optic nerve... Hey, to us more "practical" people, these kinds of people might seem like idiots.

But were it not for their idiocy and risk-taking, doing things that, at the moment, seemed to have no practical purpose... We'd all still be in caves. Or even extinct. Someone's gotta sacrifice so the rest of us get to mooch off the benefits.

But, snobbery is the trend. Respect? Pfft! Just some silly device made for the controlling of the masses, of course.

Some believe we would have been better off if we never learned how to use fire, the wheel, or other technologies... I dunno. We'd be living in a world without space blankets, shoes that protect your feet, freeze-dried and preserved food to feed people, the freakin internet... and animation. Dang. So that's where I draw the line. Exploration and the seemingly stupid undertakings that "idiots" engage themselves in can be very helpful. We just can't predict EVERY use that can come out of such explorations.


Finally... there's no changing some peoples' opinions, methinks. So... uh...

Peace, as they say. :)

Correct, but (and that's a huge but by the way) I think we should clean up the mess in our rooms before we leave the house. I am not saying that we're not suppposed to shoot men to the moon, but what I'm saying is, that we could cut space programs in order to "clean up the room". Knowledge and everything is fine, but what good does knowing that a rock fell on the moon 150 million years ago do when you have asthma because of smog? Smog will be around for a while, but we have the tools and the knowledge to prevent and fight it. But what it lacks is money. So if we said "No, that robot to Mars is not necessary, Mars will still be around in five years" and wanted the money to go to funding of anti-smog campaigns and technologies, I say that this is something useful compared identifying a rock which will still be around in five years.

So in your eyes, getting blown to bits inside a spaceshuttle is "taking one for the team"? Sure, people have learned that there needs to be more security checks on space shuttles before they launch, but aside from that, those shredded people have done nothing for us.

Not respect, but the masses are indeed controlled by overdone respect, such as parades and silly T-Shirts. Creating media events, live feeds from some silly parade honouring some media-proclaimed hero is nothing but crowd control. Besides, TV wastes precious airtime where they could actually tell you where help would be needed and what's wrong in front of your own doorstep. Sure, nobody wants to hear that the own country is rotten or that the people are without any common sense and/or morals, but a flashy parade which shows three hours of happy-pappy-wonderland is something everybody must see. It is not respect that is the device, it's the media abusing respect to control the masses.

On the other side, if we were still be living in caves, we wouldn't know animation and all that to miss it. So that's a weak argument. We can't miss what we don't know.

And may I add that I love this thread? :D

Seriously, big whoop, a bunch of "heroes" died because none of them had the ability to have their own reservations, or their launch cordinators the common sense to double check with the engineers.

Like Anark said, wave the flag all you want, I dont' know these people, I'm aware of what happened, and it was the fault of their superiors failing to listen, making them murderors, all they are to me are victims.

Anarky, ever notice that your cynicism tends to involve many rapidfire executions? :)

I have a lot to say to that, but Voltron, Masked Ninja, Fledermaus, and Fledermaus have eloquently said much of it already.

We just can't help it. The drive to explore is as much a part of us as hunger, compassion, or fear. Maybe we are driven to be foolish, but how many of us would go? How many of us would climb into that damned rocket, having been duly informed of the deplorable failure rate? A good many would. Not because it's heroic, but just because... we need to. But unlike in our explorations of our Earth, only a few of us actually can. So, with a vicarious spirit perhaps, we ship them off. You could say that that became "routine" to the public eye, but nobody involved (at least whom I've ever talked to) pretends it's safe.

We continue to fight the good fight here on the ground, and our efforts at space exploration have actually helped here too. Do you know how much good just having a photo of Earth has done for us? Talk about forcing perspective. It looks beautiful. It looks vulnerable. It's our home, ladies and gentlemen (and mutants). If you can't play nice, go live somewhere else!

There are much more practical examples of good results, but I'm not going to list them. :dead:

But yeah, to be part of this, is a good thing, and to step onto the rocket is a courageous thing even if you ended up "shredded." Hey, science is not safe. Do you know how many scientists have died of poisoning from their experiments? But that's perfectly acceptable, right?

I quite vehemently resent the idea that doctors and scientists shouldn't be allowed to die by the pointless, idiotic method of their choice. :flaming:

...such as volunteering to strap themselves to a rocket for the sake of knowledge (and adventure)?

Dying is not heroic; it's what you do before that.

I'm sorry but there are easier ways to attack an enemy than to aim at them from over 384,000 kilometers away! :-?

Hey, come on guys, enough arguing. This was supposed to be a Memorial, not a political flamefest....

That's exactly my point too. And the whole Earth equator is just 40,000-kilometer long - that makes it a 20,000-kilometer distance at maximum to attack anyone (sory for my my shallow calculations) - 19 times less than from the Moon!

*sigh* That's what I had been hoping, too. In an "In honor of" thread... you honor whatever it is. Calling the astronaut's actions before their deaths (and the deaths themselves) a "waste" is missing the point of the thread, IMHO.

Ah well. Not like I'm gonna change anyone's mind. S'pose that's what I get for being an optimist.

I'll say this: Space is cool. Astronauts are wicked awesome, dead or otherwise. I know I wouldn't have the balls to hop on a rocket loaded with several thousand pounds worth of solid fuel. I find their unrelenting pursuit of knowledge damned admirable. We're in a new Age of Discovery, folks, whether we like it or not. The people who man these shuttles are our new Vasco de Gamas, Ferdinand Magellans and Christopher Columbi.

...Can't argue with the logic of republicanism

...Or a guy with the best interpreation of Gadget ever in his sig...:)

Everybody, please leave politics out of this, you know that this is not allowed. And because we all like this thread, since we can really debate over something here, we don't want it to be closed, don't we?

It was a joke comment, no offense to anyone.:)

I agree. I think money should be distributed to both -- it's certainly uneven as it is now, and that should be changed. The managing of the money in general is insane, so you could say that many things are a big fat waste of taxpayers dollars -- not exclusively the space program. Ultimately, I think the reason why we explore is so we can learn more about ourselves. By studying the history of other cultures, or nature, we can get a broader view of how to address our own, current problems. Also, technology that goes into exploring outer space DOES make its way into the public.


It's not the "getting blown to bits" part that I find heroic. It's what they were a part of. EVERY astronaut risks getting blown up before take-off. They are all heroes in my eyes, including scientists who stay on earth. That'Also, since the explosion, the mistake has been studied. We now know why the fuel tank exploded and -- while scientists should have been more careful (It was, in fact, the unusual change in temperature that caused the fuel tank to explode the way it did.) But that was not the astronauts fault. They were still risking their lives with the intent of expanding the knowledge of humanity. They should be remembered.



I think the entertainment, video game, and media industries are controlling the masses. Forums and RPGs as well. Yet here we are, wasting our precious lives as we speak.;)


Which is exactly why we should keep exploring and experimenting and trying new things, because we don't know what we can find. That's why in art, it's best not to get locked into certain styles -- always try new things -- broaden your knowledge if you can. Those who do get locked into styles usually do it so they can mass-produce their work... sure, you get your meals, it's the "smart" move, but you won't learn as much. Keep both. Not one OR the other -- more like a balance. Yes, it is possible to get accustomed to lifestyles -- bad health, McDonalds, overmarketing, pollution, murder, general corruption.... so long as people don't remember how much better things could be (or can't imagine)... it's all good.

On the other hand, both our arguments have their own validity to them. The view you defend (kind of conservative, and I don't mean politics) would be content without exploring. That is an important quality to keep things safe and stable. At the same time, exploring and experimenting has given us a great advantage over other species -- we do it more than any other.

That fine balance...:D

Heheh. Muchly agreed.:evilgrin: And agree to disagree on some other things.:thumbsup:

And that Magellan guy? Well he didn't exactly make it either.

I was only 7, but I remember the loss of Challenger quite vividly as a shared national experience (in the US). We were arrogant, and we had a harsh lesson. It is a learning process. To think that we could skip the part where we make mistakes is just another kind of arrogance.

We take the safety of modern airplanes for granted (more or less), but many people died in pursuit of that technology. Our current flight technology probably wouldn't have gotten such a quick start if the Wright brothers hadn't risked test-piloting their own designs and gained first-hand understanding of the control problems.

Why do you feel that it's appropriate (or on topic) to debate the ethics of Challenger's mission in a thread designated as a memorial to Challenger? Just curious about the rationale...

I'm not debating Challenger's mission, which apparently seemed to be to get blown to bits, I'm talking about space travel in general. There's too much money and potential wasted there. Earth needs help now, the moon will still be around in a thousand years. I'm not saying that we can't blow up... ehm... send brave heroes up there, but we could waste way less money on it.

The reason, being politics are not allowed to be discussed on this board, as per the rules.

And, really, a healthy discussion about all this isn't so bad, really. Because, really, they were scientists, yes? And what they wanted most was to make us think. And here we are.

Well, ok. We are discussing manned space missions via Challenger. But I don't think that was the question. :-?

They weren't intending to get blown up, but to test out a new kind of shuttle to transport supplies. You knew that, of course, but you pretended like you'd never heard such a thing.:lol:

We explore, theoretically, so we can learn more to help ourselves. Broadening knowledge is always a good thing. (Or maybe it's not, according to medieval clergymen.) We might not have the kind of freedom to do these things forever. Anyways, lots of reasons why should explore space, lots of reasons why we shouldn't. You can refute all of my reasons to explore and experiment, be it nothing more than a gut feeling -- I can do likewise. So, we're just going around in endless circles on this discussion...

Iris makes a good point. As much as this topic is flourising, it doesn't pertain to the original subject of the thread, which was about the astronauts--the human beings who got caught in the Challenger accident. NOT the uselessness of the space programs. Similar subject, but not the same. Unless the thread was intended to be sort of complainy/WTF in subject matter (like the screwing of Spidey)... I've gotten the general impression, from my experiences here, that not everyone enjoys being bashed, or have something which they respect a lot get bashed -- even if you're right... It might be more polite to start another thread on the engaging subject, inspired by such a post. Especially since In this way, you can still give those who wish to see things a certain way their freedom to do so without being bashed for not thinking like you.

Admit it. We are guilty of the same sin.;)

Challenger, for the record, was not useless. weather and other seemingly irrelevant factors, even in the most inconspicuous of climates. The knowledge gained from the incident has made scientists more aware of the effects of subtle changes weather and other seemingly irrelevant factors. Since Challenger, scientists take into account things that were ignored before. Trial and error is a staple in scientific exploration. There is always risk.

...

That said, I can see Anarky's concern with the "waste." Rocket science involves heavy risk -- that's fine, even essential to science, but with taxpayers' money... gambling isn't a very good choice. *nods gravely*

Something that Anarky didn't mention, but that I think may defend his point on the government backing off on space exploration and concentrating more on at-home matters: Individual projects have so far proven to be more efficient than government-funded projects; generally, private enterprise, or individual or smaller group collaborations are more efficient in these areas that require fastidious attention to detail. When personal finances/resources are at stake, people are more inclined to shape up. If private companies could invest in space exploration, the government wouldn't have to spend billions on space programs. But the best thing about letting smaller groups take the risk is... in the event that any disaster occurs, it won't affect the entire nation of taxpayers, but just that group. Scientific exploration could be more of an individual quest.

:| I, uh, hope this isn't cutting it too close to politics.:ohwell:

I'll leave that up to ye mods to decide.

Sorry, Iris. I just couldn't resist. I was starting to try and connect to Anarky's point, that way the discussion could progress...:embarass: Sorry.

I see I may have misunderstood. My apologies, iris.

Fled, I got into a political debate at my own brother's wake; I understand the draw. ;)

Edit: No worries, Jo. We keep posting at the same time!

As a side note to all this, I read somewhere that the U.S. Space program has the the lowest funding of all the agencies. I dont have exact numbers, but I think its like a fraction of what goes to health and human services, schooling and human services and such. I think Social Security gets the biggest slice of the budget or whatever...and its like pulling teeth for an ordinary taxpayer to get hands on that, and its supposed to belong to the public in the first place.

All I can say is Im surprised the space sciences have done so much with so little for so far. But I dont think that can last for much longer.

Anyway...if we wanted to help the people on this planet first instead of sending people into space, it wouldnt do any good 'cuz some one would tax it all back to the government pool anyway.

Theres something wrong with this world, and I still dont know what that is yet.