Leo vs Raph - Outcome
 

Just to cause contraversy :evilgrin: I have decided to create a poll on to gather peoples opinions on the outcome of Leo and Raphs fight. Who do you think deserved to win? Who was in the right or wrong?

Go

They were both right and wrong. They were both too self-righteous, But they were both making good use of their year apart. It's just that simply being apart is what boosted their egos & provoked this fight in the first place. If splinter had never have separated them in the first place, this never would've happened.

Will you get off your Splinter's to blame theory lol

Why should I? I did the math, I applied the logic, and I've good reason to think he's to blame. Don't like it? Try and stop me.

For me I think Raph deserved to win as it would just put Leo in his place somewhat. After the comments Leo was putting forward, I thought they were a bit touchy for someone who is supposedly a leader.

I'm not usually as big fan of Raph losing his temper, it shows a form of weakness taking it out on other people. But in this case I felt it was more justified than it ever has been before.

I agree with you, triplexxx, but fortunately Splinter seemed a bit more oblivious to his actions in this movie than in previous versions. He was just a jolly old man. He probably didn't understand fully the conflict it would cause.

he seemed convinced that they could work it out and just plain happy to have all of his sons back together again. plus he did realize that something was wrong with Raph, and kept pushing Leo to mend the team he is supposed to lead. I bet however that he didn't think it would get to the point where the 2 would beat each other up

I don't really think there was any blame to be put on anyone, it was just an inevitable sibling fight. Leo, after having been gone for so long, was simply trying to live up to Splinter's expectations and not disappoint while Raph was frustrated that the city wasn't being protected and that they still weren't doing anything about it.

Initially I thought the "I'm better than you" comment by Leo was a bit of a putdown, but really it's just Leo getting to the point of why he's the leader. He was tired of Raph not listening and so he put it bluntly, maybe too bluntly. I also think Leo won the fight, but he stopped in shock once his katanas were broken. You could see him thinking "Whoa...he broke them?" right before he was knocked down because he wasn't expecting Raph to go that far, because at that point Raph was just in a rage and wasn't seeing Leo as Leo, but as the target of all his anger and hate.

Whatever ya think, I think we all can agree that was a fantastic sequence.

i posted this on imdb in a forum with a similar discussion:
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you guys are all wrong. that scene plays subtly but brilliantly, and its easy to miss the little details and nuances of the drama and subtext in the dialogue and animation.

***SPOILERS***



in truth, leo knew exactly what he was doing. he was provoking raph because he knew that the only way he could get through to him was through his anger. saying something so arrogant was a way of leo speaking to raph "in his own language"-- which, to me, indicates that it wasn't really intended to be arrogant, but to provoke and prove a point. the source of tension between raph and leo all these years (aside from their naturally clashing personality types) has been that raph is jealous that splinter chose leo as leader and not him.

raph took leo's "i'm better than you" to be a challenge to his fighting skills-- leo knew he would because raph is a hothead and his solution to everything is fighting.

but the whole purpose of the fight was for leo to prove to raph how impulsive and driven by anger he is, and that is why he is incapable of being a leader.

it is also clear that leo gave up the fight to prove a point because he wanted raph to see what he was doing: dividing the turtles. leo obviously had the upper hand in the fight before, and he also knew that his swords were gonna break. by giving up the fight, leo was basically saying, "it doesn't matter who is better individually because we're a team"-- and thats why raph runs away: because he realizes leo's point, because he is ashamed for fighting his brother (who was never truly trying to beat him), and that he has been the source of the problem.

by the end of the fight, raph realizes that when leo says "im better than you", he really means that he is a better leader, not fighter.

all of this is proven true later when raph speaks to splinter and he says "i know why you picked him, now." this shows that raph understood exactly what leo was trying to prove by fighting him and then by giving up the fight by basically his point is: "it doesnt matter which of us is a better fighter, but it matters that we function as a team, and we each have our roles."

so we will never know who really is the better fighter, but we could speculate.

and just so people won't say that i'm saying this to hate on raph, i'm stating plainly that raph is actually my favorite turtle.


"Don't ever listen to anyone on IMDb except ChimpCadet."
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I pretty much agree with Mr. Arctic's analysis, EXCEPT that I don't think Leo was expecting to be beaten. In the end though, he still managed to prove his point, despite the fact that he'd lost the physical fight -- I don't think he meant for it to happen.

One of the best face-offs I've ever seen in a movie, period.

Mr. Arctic, that's a spot-on analysis of that scene. Perfectly put!

They should both stop fighting.

i'm sure there will still be disagreements in the future but the 2 really did seem like they reached each other after that brawl. there will definatly be some growth in their relationship

Raph needed to win. It hit Leo off his high horse. The line "I'm better then you" really showed Leo's true colors. Something I've waited awhile to hear him say. And Raph showed him whose boss.

Well said dude. Leo needed Raph to knock some sense into him, at knock he did.


And triplexxx, would you give up this ridiculous anti-Splinter campaign of yours. Jesus, it's getting old.

plus I gotta say I loved the sick grin Raph had on his face when he pinned Leo down, compared to the look of dissapointment/sadness on Leo's face. Not to mention Raph looking at Leo face to face and that look of his suddenly turning into a look of sad realization

but aside from his 'i'm better than you' exactly what was Leo doing that was so horrible and mean to Raph that he needed the sense knocked into him, other than wanting to follow Master Splinter's orders? yes Leo is confident, and sometimes over confident, but why should his actively trying to be a leader like he was told to suddenly equate to him being on a high horse

Because, like Raph said, when leo came back he just expected the other Turtles to fall in line again. He just expected everything to be like it was before with him in command, not taking the personal feelings of his brothers into account. He was too focused on being the perfect leader, and not enough on just being they're brother.

I still don't see how his expecting his brothers to listen to him is him being on a high horse but to each their own I guess

Leo was full of himself. he tracks down the Nightwatcher and acts like a bad ass in front of him trying to get him to stop being a hero. Like "This is my town and you can't fight crime here" Thats a spit in Raph's face because Raph had been keeping crime in check while Leo was gone*This is expressed alot in the game* so I'd be pissed to.

In the game though Leo calls Raph a criminal which pisses him off even more.

Don didn't like what the Nightwatcher was doing either--is he on a high horse too?Granted Don didn't get into a fight with him like Leo, but the feelings were mutual

I think Splinter secretly has a high price life insurance policy on Leonardo. So its always, "Lead first Leonardo!", "Jump into that pit Leonardo!", "You don't need weapons to fight Shredder Leonardo!" and "Trust me and drink your glowing green tea Leonardo!" I smell a rat, a giant mutant rat...

Personally I saw nothing wrong with what the Nightwatcher was doing. Leo stated that the Nightwatcher doing everything by himself was a bad idea (Batman works alone though) and that it was the turtles' place to fight crime.

Who decided that? Surely there is no rule to say that the Turtles should have a territory to fight crime? That's similar to putting them into a category saying that it's gangland territory surely? Does Leo hold it against Casey for doing the same thing?

Maybe that also explains why Professor X is so rich.

What I don't understand is how come Casey recognized the Nightwatcher as Raph right away, but Leo didn't? Unless Leo knew and was just playing along? But his surprise looked genuine when he knocked Raph's helmet off... I'm kind of confused about that.

probably because Casey have known of Raph going out in the night before he became nightwatcher and fighting crime seems like something he would do

It was a fight they needed really. Leo needed to see he wasn't almighty and Raph needed to prove himself.

I was just a bit letdown that they didn't actually 'pay off' the idea so much, as it seemed Raph became the leader and did pretty good while Leo became the damsel in distress. I guess I kinda like the idea as it doesn't follow cheesy cliches and that theme will probably run through sequels if they're made.

Mr. Arctic, I think that is a very insightful way to interpret that fight (although I, too, don't think Leo expected to "lose"--I mean, he didn't expect to get pinned down and have his swords broken; I would debate whether he actually lost in the end, as Raph conceded that Leo is the leader). However, as much as I love taking subtleties out of that fight, there is nothing in the script to indicate that Kevin intended such underlying motivations ... I think we're seeing something really genius that wasn't even intended.

TMTWBR, I like what you have to say usually, dude, but triplexxx can think whatever he/she (sorry, didn't check) about Splinter. As long as no one says "I'm definitely right and you're definitely wrong," I think we should be able to interpret what we want.

I must say that I agree that Leo's motives were weird there. The Turtles have been vigilantes all their lives. Besides being a grump, what did Raph do wrong? It broke my heart, though, when Leo knocked off Raph's helmet and he was like, "Raph? What?" and then Raph smashed him over.

Everyone knows why Robin wears primary colors and Batman dosen't.

If Raph had become such a problem why the @)(#* didn't Splinter take care of him in the first place!! Why did Splinter ALLOW them to become what they were while Leo was gone? Isn't he like, the boss? Hellooo...Leo may be Leader, Splinter is FATHER and SENSEI, he is the ultimate leader. Why did he rely on Leo to take care of the problem? Why couldn't HE deal with it? Too frail?
So then, he goes to watch soaps...seems like he was contributing to their laziness.
I would have liked to see some dojo training, sensei at the helm.

Because of this happening, shows sensei isn't the end all be all, he isn't perfect.

Ahh the wonders of the dysfunctional family of turtles and a rat...

Well, if Splinter did take care of it, there goes all our side plot.

:D yeah I know. but it's fun to think about it.

IMO that was the main plot, to get the family back together.

Then why...oh.

And I agree, but what is 50% of the audience actually there for?

Other than an excuse to whine that the old toon was teh best evah111!1;)

I think it comes down to this. In a fight for honor, Leo will win. When Raph is fueled by his temper, Leo will win, because that temper is too short fused.

But, like I have seen in many incarnations, if Raph has deadly, pure hatred running threw his veins, he has the umph to take down just about anything. He's like an unstoppable locomotive, and I think he realized that when he had toppled Leo.

While this scene was riveting, someone mentioned it was heartbreaking too, and I think they were right. Leo feels unappreciated for his hard work to strive to be the best for Splinter, while Raphael tries to live in a world that he wants to be accepted in, but never will. Both are being punished mentally in a cruel way.

Who do I think deserved to win. I go for Raph. I think what he was doing was no different than what Leo was doing in the jungles of Brazil. How come one is allowed to be the hero of a village, but the other is scolded (or in Raph's words, lectured) for trying to help his home city?

I loved that the movie fight had them pretty even. Still, the Raph fan in me couldn't help but vote for him.:)

Nice analysis. I agree with it wholeheartedly. But right now, I don't want to add anything else cause I've already talked this scene to death.:D

I agree too. Great anaylsis Warhorse. I already posted my feelings on the fight in another topic.

Leo is in the right. He did what Splinter said in order to help his family not himself. Splinter may seem harsh and strict, but he has no choice. The turtles will always have to face danger in the human world and Splinter knows he won't be around forever to guide them. He chose Leo to take on that responsibility. Leo only stayed away 'cause he said that there was still something missing to complete his training.

If Raph really believed what he was doing was right, why hide it from his family? Leo has been given the responsibility to lead them, and Raph just makes it more difficult for things to get done right. When some challenges your authority, you need to put them back into their place... with love of coarse.

Because criminals are a suppositious and cowardly lot. Also, Nightwatcher is a public figure. Something Raph can't be.

Somehow it seems that beating the crap out of people who steal for a living--because they don't have any other way because the economic system is so ****ed up--seems kind of sleazy to me. I know it was a PG movie, but I'd like to see Raph beat up violent offenders and rapists, not desperate thieves.

I guess I would vote for Raph, though.