Leonardo Life/Death question!
 

Hi guys, I'm here with a question I've already asked people on my lj community but I got a wide range of replies and am curious to know what the rest of the TMNT fan community had to say!

Anyway the question is this... in a hypothetical situation of your making Leonardo is faced with a life and death choice. All three of his brothers are about to die and he can only save ONE of the three in time.

Which brother would Leonardo choose to save?

What a heartbreaking situation! Whatever choice he made, it'd rip him up.

I don't think Raph would let Leo save him. Raph protects his brothers and I think would rather die than get himself rescued at the others' expense.

So between Donnie and Mikey... I'm really not experienced enough with the turtles in general universes to make the soundest of judgments here. If I can assume that Mikey is seen as the innocent one in most incarnations, I'd say Mikey would be saved.

I can picture Donnie saying something like, "No, I'm hurt too badly. The others are more likely to survive, save them" but my interpretation of the question is that they're all equally likely to survive, so Donnie would have no truthful basis to say this. He could lie, though.

:(
Good question. I think Leo feels the deepest affection for Raphael. I think Leo would feel pulled toward saving Raph due to their special bond. If it's purely a decision Leo must make I say he chooses Raph. However, if Raph had anything to say about it, he would make Leo choose again like Courk said.

I think Raph and Don would be the two turtles to give up their lives to save their brothers.

I was thinking along those lines, too, but it didn't sit right with me. I think Mikey would do anything to save his brothers, too, I just don't know if he's ever really thought about it. I can imagine the other 3 thinking about it in private and deciding that, yes, they would die for their family. I don't see Mikey having those thoughts. When a situation like this presented itself, he'd have to think about it for even the most fleeting of moments merely because he hadn't thought about it before. In that time, the others would have already given up their lives because they had spent the time thinking about it long beforehand. I think it's fairer to say that Raph and Donnie have probably prepared themselves more to give up their lives for their brothers than Mikey has, but that Mikey would reach the same conclusion if he ever spent the time considering it.

Leo's decision depends a bit on how much time he has to think. Rescuing someone from a burning building leaves less time for thought than planning a rescue from captivity that can only succeed for one. Without being able to communicate with his brothers and having to make a quick decision, I agree that Leo would be more likely to choose Raph. However, if he even had a few minutes to think, I think he'd at least try to consider what all his brothers would wish, and I think he could come to the conclusion that Raph and Donnie are more prepared to die.

I wanted to point out that Leo has another option, too. He could join his brothers in death. However, given that he can save one, I don't think he'd be selfish enough to genuinely consider it. As much as it would hurt him to have to choose like that, I think he'd rather live with that pain knowing he did manage to save one brother than knowing he let them all die because he was afraid to lose some of them.

Way to cover yourself:lol: I agree, it's hard to imagine any of the turtles not willing to give their life for their family because we have been shown how much they all love each other. aww:roll: But yeah.

I hate to pull from SAINW because it just doesn't seem real to me but in that ep, Leo tells Raph that he had to make a choice... Save splinter, or save his brothers. And Leo doesn't seem to regret his decision. Raph tries to tell Leo that Leo made the wrong choice, but Leo can live with his decision. I think Leo realizes that it's not his fault that $h*t happens. He knows when life messes with you, you have to do the best you can and in SAINW Leo did that. Leo seemed ok with himself, he doesn't yeild to Raph's speculation. He sticks behind his decision. I suppose I'm just trying to say, that Leo can live with the outcome of his decision if he had to choose a brother to save.

Hey there. I haven't really been throwing my two cents into this one because reading people's takes on the question is very interesting, but since we're talking 2k3 toon... they spent 4 episodes on him being upset over the fact that his brothers MIGHT have been killed during the Shredder fight. I think it would take him quite a long time for him to be able to get over the fact that he made a decision to save one brother over another even if he couldn't save them both. My take on it of course... ^^

Wow, what a hard question.

Personally, I don't think any of his 3 brothers would let him choose him over the other two.

So it may have to boil down to whomever is in better shape of the trio. That way they may even be able to save a third brother.

EDIT- Thinking about it, I have realized that if this situation were to happen, both Donatello AND Raphael would insist that Leonardo saves Michelangelo. While Mikey may ask Leo to save someone else as well, the fact that both Donnie and Raph would agree to save Mikey because he's the youngest would probably lead Leo to save Mikey indeed.

I'm gonna have to go with Mike as well simply because Raph would refuse to be saved with such a heated passion that Leo would have to pass him by, and Don would give Leo a perfectly logical reason why Mike or Raph would be the better choice to save. Mike wouldn't really be able to provide a reason why he shouldn't be saved, but I think he'd become astronomically more serious after the fact. He wouldn't be his innocent, happy self for a very long time, and Leo would just go all loner on everyone and meditate off in a jungle somewhere.

I think the real question here is, would any of the dying turtles deliberately kill themselves so that Leo wouldn't have to make a choice? Eh, eh? I think Raph would. Don might, knowing how much Leo would beat himself up over having to choose which brother to save. I just can't see Mike doing something like that, though. Honestly, it's hard to judge what Mike would say or do at all since so many versions of him are the happy, innocent type, and I'm not familiar enough with his Mirage/Image incarnations to determine exactly what he would do.

You...broke my feelings.

Absolutely NOT. That would only make things worse. That would make Leo feel even guiltier. It's with all 4 Turtles and Splinter surviving and Leo has this shell shock and guilt in the NT- imagine if another Turtle did commit suicide. They do not use the euphemism "doing something irrational" arbitrarily- there is a reason for it.

If another Turtle did risk his life to save that of another, and thus end up losing his life as a result, it is another story.

I think no matter what the case, Leo would attempt to save them all or die trying. Cos his brothers(&sensei) are the most important people in his life. He would die rescuing them all. Who would he reach for first, that depends on the situation.

I'm sorry. :cry:

It would only make him feel guiltier if he knew that they sacrificed themselves to aid his decision. If they made it appear accidental, then it would be no worse than if he simply failed to save them in time. For instance, if they're all hanging from a ledge and too battered to help themselves up, all they'd have to do is let go, but it would appear that they couldn't hold on any longer or slipped.

On the other hand, don't they all follow Bushido, the samurai code, and all that jazz? The OT turtles probably wouldn't commit suicide for Leo's sake, but the Mirage/2k3 turtles wouldn't have the same objections to suicide that our Christian moral system has. They'd see seppuku as honorable, and I think Leo would understand and feel less guilty if they died willingly rather than by his own incompetence.

I think he'd reach for whoever had the best chance to help him save the others. If none of them were in a position to help him save the others, he'd go for the one who might die first. If they'd all die at the same time, then he'd go for whoever was closest and move as quickly as possible while doing so.

This is a really hard question. There's no doubt that all 4 would be willing to give up their lives to save others / each other. We saw their willing in Exodus, and in FF Fly me to the Moon.

I don't think Leo would ever "choose" one of this brothers to die, and I think they would make the decision for him. They would carry the burden and I would imagine that it would result in Raph throwing himself into the line of fire to save Leo having to make the decision - him because he wouldn't think about it - he would just rashly dive in. leo, Don and Mike would give the matter too much thought but Raph wouldn't think. And he wouldn't care about leaving anyone with any guilt. Leo, Don and Mike would all take survivor's guilt into consideration but Raph wouldn't. I think Raph can be quite primitve, emotionally: he probably wouldn't even think about the consequences of such actions, wouldn't consider that the consciousness of others would continue after his was extinguished; only to know that his brothers were spared.

Hmmm, I'm not as much of an expert on the subject as most of you are, but I guess I'll throw my hat into the ring.

Raph would definitely sacrifice himself, I wouldn't doubt that. Don, being a pacifist, would want as little conflict as possible, so if Raph were to take a dive, I'd assume Don would then rather have Mike survive than himself. I can imagine Don sacrificing himself, but I wouldn't doubt that Raph would be the first to do so, and then Don would probably feel bad if he couldn't save his little brother. I think Mike would be left, but not by his own will, only after Raph and Don took a dive.

But of course, I can't imagine Leo making the choice. He'd either attempt at saving all of them, or Raph and Don would take their own lives before Leo made a choice, leaving Mike to live.

As long as he leaves Venus to die, all is well.

*snuzzles The Shelf* I was referring to the originally poster actually. I can't even answer this question. It wounds me.

That's what I was looking to say, but I didn't know how to say it.

So, so cruel; yet so, so funny. :embarass:

I second that. Leo is not the type of person to just choose one over the other. It's all or nothing for him.

True, it's all or nothing for him. Honestly, he loves them all the same so if it had to come down to the choice, he'd most likely go for the turtle that was the closest and easiest to save at that given time, regardless of who it was.

Tough question. I agree it's all or nothing. But just playing what if for a moment. Leo's proxemity to his bros would have to be a factor. If there is only time to reach one and one happens to be colser than the other two then that bro might get rescued by default.

As for Mike and his level of sacrifice, I could see Mike sacrificing himself, but I agree than he probably never would have given the matter much thought before. Mike probably wouldn't commit sepuku but try some impulsive Raphael like stunt that would be some suicide move like jumping out of the building if it was or fire even though he would die hitting the bottom or attack a more powerful enemy knowing he would be imediately cut down. As for why Mike might sacrifice himself at all, he'd probably see himself as the weak link and think that Don or Raph was more valuable to keep alive, especially Don I think since Mike would know Raph would probably be the first of the two to off himself. So Mike would probaly tell Leo to save Don. Not to mention, in the time it might take Don or Raph to still be arguing with Leo to go save Mike instead, Mike upon hearing Don or Raph choose him might take it upon himself to take that decision out of Leo's hands and sacrifice himself to give Don or Raph a chance instead. Just a thought.

I honestly do not see Mikey sacrificing his life at all, unless if it was like, jumping in the way of a bullet or swordstrike to save one of his brothers, Splinter or April.

I think Mikey has thought about things like this before just as much as his bropthers probably have. Actually on some levels I think maybe Mikey is the most aware or worried about a situation like this any of the other his brothers. I think what Mikey fears most is losing his family or one of his brothers in battle. So I have a very strong feeling that this sort of situation has entered his mind, and I think he would be just as willing to let him self die to allow his other brothers to live if ever in the situation. Mikey's feelings and emotions on these types of morbid subjects is the most mysterious since he doesn't show his serious side as much as the others do but time and again he has shown how intuned and aware he is on these sorts of subjects and how mature and long sighted he can be.

I really hate to agree about Raph sacrificing himself. He would lay his life down for his family without a thought, he'd leap in front of a bullet, he'd take a hit, if he could help it he'd prevent one of them from dying. But that's Raph, he loves them so much he'd die for them.

You've hit the nail on the head. It's part of what makes him such an endearing character. Sometimes he comes across as just downright nasty, but at the very soul of it is nothing but love and as you say a self-sacrificing love at that. That's Raph.

I think Mike is aware of the situation, he just would be the type to dwell on it at least not openly, maybe in his diary though.

Yup, Buslady that pins down what I love about Raph.

Raph and Leo personalities.
 

I didn't know where else to put this, but someone on the IMDb boards pointed out something interesting about the contradicting, but alike personalites of Leo and Raph. They asked

..............the MAIN character (Turtle) in this film easily, and i also believe that he was hurt even more deeply than the others that splinter was taken.

well, why then if that's the case, did the writers make him like donnie and mikie being in the shadow of leonardo towards the end of this film? i know leo's the leader, but i thought even, that leo had taken over as main character in like one scene. i would've thought that raph would've gone more apesh*t on shedder than leo, seeing it seemedto be more painful to him than the others about splinter. in the other 2 filmsit's the same way. that kinda pissed me off. probobly because raph's always been my favorite of the turtles, but still...

But it's an interesting question, and one that has me wonder about these two. Raphael does indeed show great stress and grief over the absence/death of Splinter in many a medium. Hell, in Same as it Never Was, he and Leo had grown far apart from their opposing views on Splinters death.

I also wonder, in the cartoon version of City At War, it was Leo who wanted to fight, and Raph telling him it was not their fight, but I always thought Raph loved finding reasons to fight? What' s with the switch in personalities?

Psh Leo would find a way to save all 3 some how, or Splinter would come out of nowhere and save them.

Haha but in the chance that this was more realistic and that happened? I think Leo would let himself die as well. He seems like a one goes down we all go down sorta guy. But out of all the turtles I think he'd save Mikey because he's the youngest.

Yeah, Leonardo dosen't seem like the type to fear death. I say he'd kill him self or let him self be killed (in a realistic scenario, or a radical ending to the comics)

He'd probably offer himself up on the condition that his brothers were released,or at least one; Raph. Mid transfer, they raise some hell and make a break for it. Or, y'know, it might not be Raph. But he'd choose the one most likely to help change the situation, because willingly letting someone die is not an option here. Never for Leo.

God-forbid this whole thing, the way I see it: the others would refuse to let Leonardo choose only one of them and just leave them all, and Leonardo would just stay behind and choose to perish with them knowing he could never live with himself no matter what happens, and if one of them did let Leonardo choose him, whichever turtle it is, he couldn't live with himself either. They'd all decide to just die together since that's the best way to do so and something they'd all be agreeable to.

Raph may love to fight, but I can also see him having a lazy streak (not as big as Mikey's, though). And he does not have the "save the world and always do the right thing" attitude that Leo has. Raph is more of a "picking fights" dude. And who knows if Raph was being cautious or possibly even phobic about gangs fighting- he could imagine them full of belligerent quarrelsome people like him. Leo on the other hand wanted to be a paladin.

I think any of the Turtles would be willing to give up his life for his brothers. Not just Leo.

But if Leo had to absolutely save only one and just one, Raph and Donnie would definitely insist that he save Mikey.

Well, they were all raised to have that type of attitude, and they do have it.

I may just be brain dead but I don't understand if you are asking a question here, warhorse. Are saying Leo took Splinter's abduction the hardest or that Raph did?

I think they all took it equally hard on the first movie. But they may have thought it was Raph who took it hardest because it was his voice that screamed "SPLINTER!!!!!" on the rooftop.

Warhorse's reference to that imdb question is pretty much someone having the same feeling that I had regarding the "fans of one turtle usually dislike another" thread. I always wondered why Leo fans didn't like Raph and Raph fans didn't like Leo. Their characters have a lot of conflicts but they're not exactly polar opposites. I always thought Raph fans would dislike Don, vice versa (sp?), Leo fans would dislike Mike, and vice versa (again, sp?) on that pair, too.

Well, I think Raph, at least shown in the movie, seemed to have arguably the next-closest relationship with Splinter. Leo was shown as the studious, attentive one who respected him, but Raph's emotions were also explored. The movie did make it seem like Raph took it the worst, but what I think happened is that the movie just plain focused on Raph mostly. April talked about how the others took the loss of Splinter, Leo watching over Raph and Don depending on Casey Jones for some light-hearted and happier things to talk about while they worked on the truck. Mike was shown with the punching bag, but that was about it (not including the rooftop bit, seeing is how techically it's Raph yelling Splinter's name). Around the campfire, Raph was obviously happy, which he wasn't throughout most of the movie, which says a lot. Mike was crying from his happiness, Don was comforting him. Leo at the time seemed...well...to himself after Splinter left, but any turtle fan already knows how close Leo is with his master. I can see all 4 of them going ballistic had someone killed Splinter, not just Leo or Raph, but Leo and Raph are typically the first to come to mind when that topic comes up.

Leo and Raph do have a lot of similarities, but I agree that Leo and Raph kinda switched personalities during the City at War episode.

Sorry, I was posting a quote I saw on IMDb, and it didn't all come out.

The original poster was commenting how Raph was the main character in the first Teenage mutant Ninja Turtles. He was visibly the most shaken out of all the Turtles for Splinter being kidnapped. It was his anger about sitting around April's apartment, and also not liking the idea of using her as bait to find Splinter, and he and Leo got into that spat, that resulted in Raph going up to the top and getting his shell kicked.

But at the end of the movie, when Shredder told the Turtles that Splinter was dead, it was Leo who went bonkers, lost his cool and composure, and very nearly lost his life to the Shredder. The original poster was asking why did the writers have a sudden change in personalities between Raph and Leo?

The only thing I can think of, is that Leo could have taken all that he could for his age. He witnessed his father being kidnapped, he has the shock of meeting two human friends, and shortly after, the one human friend who had taken them in after his homewas deatroyed, had her home, and her history destroyed by Leo's enemies, not to mention he had that awful feeling if Raph would pull through his coma or not. Alot for a 15ish, 16ish teenage mutant turtle to digest in short amount of time. The thought that SHredder killed his father was enough to send him over the edge.

Sorry for confusing everyone. I ended up figuring things out for myself! ;)

But who knows, maybe you all have other ideas or thoughts of what goes on in the minds of these complex turtles!

Regarding the first movie I think Leo showed a lot of concern for splinter too. The whole meditating thing, campfire thing, etc...

It's just Leo's was more focused inward and Raph's more outward. The rooftop scene could have went either way. Maybe Leo's keeping it all inward was taking its toll on him and he became irrational whereas Raph already had several times to express his anger. Leo is so close to splinter that it isn't odd he would charge in one sense, but yeah it does go against his usual personality.


Anyway regarding Leo's saving a turtle, I think you guys answered it well enough. In the end it all depends on the scenario.

The thing is, how close each of the turtles are to Splinter, and how much they care about him are really two completely different things. In the first thing they differ a little, but in the second they don't differ at all...how they choose to express it, inward or outward, doesn't change that.

Now if it were alternate scenarios where it would be another Turtle or Splinter having to save just one of the Turtles:

Donatello- again, Leo and Raph would convince him to save Mikey.

Raphael- ditto, Leo and Donnie convince him to save Mikey.

Michelangelo- this one is tougher. Raphael is second youngest, so it is possible that Leo and Donnie may try to convince Mikey to save Raph. But this one is likelier to boil down to specific scenario.

Splinter saving just one Turtle- this one would be the most different. Donnie, Raph, and Mikey would try to convince Splinter to save Leonardo, since Leo is the top student and ninja of the bunch, the one closest to Splinter, and according to a lot of people, Splinter's favorite.