Fast Forward and 2003 Cartoon
 

I've seen a couple of posts where people are talking about how when the Turtles get back to present day they'd remember all their FF adventures. But does anyone else think that they might retcon the next season and act like FF never happened? That way they wouldn't mess up anyone's storyline.

No I've been told by Mirage that that while the show will be going back to present day Fast Forward will not be forgotten and will have an ending.

I suggested before that a memory-wipe sort of thing would be the only way for them to return to the early 21st century without the risk of skewing the future because of their foreknowledge. I get the feeling that's not what you were getting at though.

If you're asking if we think Fast Forward will be negated...
 

...that's highly unlikely. My opinion has always been, from the first I heard of Fast Forward (a month or so before the sneak preview/premiere of the sub-series), that 'the damage has already been done' in a manner of speaking. Even if it turned out to be as lame as some were fearing, it was too late to take it back. Disowning Fast Forward would be lamer than the lamest episodes of it IMHO.

Agreed. Which is why I never particularly liked Greg Weisman's decision to disown all of Gargoyles: Goliath Chronicles except the one episode he wrote. Were they good episodes? Not really. Did they damage the timeline so bad that he couldn't work around it? Not at all. And in tossing the episodes aside, he also tossed away the hard work of all the cast and crew.

One thing about FF is we never learn the Turtles' personal fates. The future may turn out pretty bright, but thats no guarantee the Turtles will have happy endings too.

I have a feeling that in next season they're going to have Cody "guest star" in one episode by coming back to the past for an ep. Its just a hunch, but I don't think Cody will be ignored once FF ends.

To be honest, I'd like to see Cody interact with April and Casey. It might mess up the timeline though.

Unless they keep the fact of who he really is a secret... ala Trunks in DBZ when he first appeared.

I'd much rather see Sh'Okanabo return to the past to cause trouble... or Savanti go to the future to cause trouble. Either way, something to suggest FF still happened.

They could have done Savanti in Fast Forward by having him frozen for a few hundred years like in the comics.

I do not think their memories of Fast Forward will be erased completely. However, they probably should return to the same instant in time that they left. This is trickier than the prehistoric Renet adventure since it involves a travel to the future that they can affect. And it is the same universe, so it is not like Narnia where it can progress in a different direction. Plus the Turtles are now in a higher Ninja rank thanks to Fast Forward- I think this should be at least acknowledged in regular time.

Or they could have done Ultimate Drako in FF, seeing as he did possess the time scepter.

Same universe or not, the future could still change. Why do you think they haven't told the turtles much? Either way, the future can still change, maybe not as bad as in "the journal", but still.

Here's how I want it to end... give the new series 2 episodes of FF as an arch in which they get home. And at the ned, Cody Screws up the location, and winds up plunking them into April's Bathtub (A running gag from the comic I was very disappointed they never pursued).

Now what I hate is how they tried to stretch the plot into 26 episodes, and made so many filler eps, they neglected to realize they may have to end the series at 26 episodes. They should have not wrote the entire thing at once. They should have waited for the second 13 eps, so we could have had some major story arch instead of planning arcs to come, and filling us up with Crap about how the future changed or how immature Mikey is.

I don't think anyone in Mirage/Playmates/4Kids seriously thought FF would only be one season. Whatever else has been said, when you spend the time and money to rebrand a series, you expect it to stick around awhile. The production staff probably already knew they were being renewed as they wrote the season's last episode, hence the lack of closure. Then the toy sales dropped, and we got this.

Think of season 1 of 2K3, where the season was ended on the worst possible cliffhanger (Turtles get blasted into space). Season 2 was a sure bet, but what would've happened if toy sales had flopped?

Actually you should. I thought TGC was good too until I noticed all the errors it made. The new crew didn't know a damn thing about Gargoyles and simply wrote it as another Saturday morning cartoon. It did change things around pretty much as it is.
Fast Forward, although some part of me wishes otherwise, is somewhat of an exception. They met Casey and April's offspring, some storylines were revisited, and some characters such as Leo and Stockman recieve closure.

How did Leonardo receive any closure in FF? Whatever closure the turtles needed, I'd say they got in the Lost Season. The one exception probably being their Chunin graduation, but they'd already saved the world and defeated both Shredders before that, so that doesn't really make a difference.

I think they should pull a Bob Newhart and have the whole thing be a bad dream.

Then they could all wake up and, just to be safe, go and either split April and Caaey up, or neuter one of them.

"Goliath Chronicles" has it's moments, "Perchance to Dream" is a fan favourate in particular, but it does'nt do much beyond a "what if" scenario, and the finale is so basic, it's insulting.

They went by the numbers, where as the entire second season spent months seperating the characters and setting up the mythology that simply was not capatalised, again due to the writers not knowing how deep the show was and not bothering to try staying true to it. It was'nt "hard work" at all, it was sadly an early example of how "phoned in" Disney's staff would eventually become with later rubbish.

Yeah I really don't get that one either...but I can see why the turtles are so happy in FF and act so care free at first because they don't have a care in the world since an episode before they just saved the world from zombies and demons. So to me that excuses everyones relaxed attitude.
You will see it change though as they notice the future isn't really a all sparkles, sunshine, and happy lets walk the streets freely kind of place.

That was when Leo got another crack at Shredder in "Timing Is Everything" and they owned him.

I see. Though I believe their best beating on him (the Utrom one) was in Secret Origins 3 when they all sliced him up and short-circuited him, then made him reveal himself and blew him up.

Actually, what we've seen in the series suggests that the turtles will not change the future, no matter what they do; unlike in Back to the Future, time travel in the TMNTverse seems to make history instead of changing it (for another example of this, see Gargoyles). For example, Earth as the turtles know it wouldn't have existed if Savanti (who, if you recall, had been sent to the Cretaceous Period as an indirect result of the turtles' interference) hadn't sent the meteor that killed the dinosaurs crashing down to Earth. If Cody doesn't tell them of their eventual fate, it's more for their mental well-being than anything else--even if they couldn't change the past, how would you feel if you knew when you were going to die?

In any case, erasing the turtles' memories or treating Fast Forward as it didn't happen would be, to me, a serious cop-out, and would seriously affect my enjoyment of any post-Fast Forward episodes. Plus, personally, I think the series has a lot going for it, so I really don't want to see it ignored.

I don't see why you think the turtles would feel this way; the turtles have never been ones to romanticize their situation that way. The way I see it, they know the world is just as effed up as its always been--they, like most people, just don't see a reason to try to actively change it in a way that would make for good television.

Well, Return to New York makes for a fairly decent series finale (barring the "Splinter is missing/The Shredder isn't really dead" angles)--had they know the series wasn't coming back, they could have stopped there--just animate an alternate last two minutes, and you're golden.

True. And, I never even thought Leo's storylines were dangling that much. But, his lack of satisfaction with how they beat him in "Exodus" caused half a season of internal conflict for him. So, this was his opportunity to put his mind at ease about that particular issue.

Well, his mind had already been put at ease after therapy from the Ancient One; it's true their defeating of the first Shredder was only a luck-out, but that 4th season thing really exaggerated it; he was really making a big deal out of nearly nothing. Besides, I'd say they more than made up for that when they manifested the dragons and defeated the next Shredder in the Lost Season; I'd say that was the redemption. I think that FF meeting and defeat of the old Shredder was really just an extra consolation prize for them.

Exactly how I saw it. But, you have to figure that they they singled out Leo in that ep for a reason. But, 'consolation prize' is a good way to put it.

They singled him out at first. But at the end, both he and Raphael kicked him back through the portal. Shredders' deaths were everybody's accomplishments.

I would have made a big deal out of it too. There is no reason they should have resorted to sacrificing themselves just to defeat Shredder. The turtles overcame even greater obstacles (arguably) and stronger opponents but yet they are defeated from a somewhat ordinary beatdown from Karai and Shredder. Thats a really big blow to the ego. The Shredder defeating them most likely sent a signal to Leo that maybe all their other achievements were just due to plain luck. I would be just as mad as season four Leo if that happened to me.
That fight in Exodus was really embarrassing imo. I felt the turtles could have done alot more but the writers made them lose to advance the story.

You Don't see why I see the reason for their attitude change? Then You musn't have watched the lost season it all really makes sence I mean if you watched it that is. Don't want to ruin anything for you...but they did just get done saving the entire world a moment before they get zaped into the future.
They act very imature for some times untill they start getting into more action, more traps, and trying to fix things in my opinion it's those things thats taking them out of that mind set.

Well me personally, I think that's a lousy way to look at it. The way I see it, sometimes skill enables you to survive, and sometimes luck does; for the turtles, that's an explantion of their accomplishments: sometimes skill, sometimes luck. And they beat him pretty good until he got into his bigger and better exosuit. Sometimes, sacrafice may end up the only way to get the job done, why else would our military be sacraficing themselves half-way across the world for us?
If I was in Leonardo's position, I'd simply say, "What's done is done. At least we made it out alive and got Shredder put out of our misery." I don't give a damn how the job gets done or who does it, just as long as it gets done. And I'd just put it behind me and move on.

But Leo's not you. Seeing your family getting the hell beat out of them and almost not making it out alive is far from nothing. He can be forgiven shell shock and paranoia, especially since it all went into further character development.

Then how is it the others got over it so quickly and were able to put it behind them? They put just as much effort into that battle as he did, and they're just as much responsible for the safety of the family as he is.

And at least they did make it out alive and got what they wanted in the end, and they won't have to worry about running into the same situation again since Shredder's gone (the Utrom one they knew about anyway). Besides, it's not like they've never come close to death before. They tried their best, the fight didn't end up costing them anything (like their lives), and there was absolutely nothing left to learn from that situation, so there's no point in hanging onto it and making a big deal out of it.

You even told me long ago that the whole point was that he made a big deal out of nothing. (Thread: "Who is your favorite TMNT.")

He clearly states everytime he talks about it in the 4th season he took it the hardest because he;s the leader and it was his responsibility to come up with a better idea then for all of them to kill themselves.

That's Leo's personality. He is expected to be the most responsible of his brothers as the leader, but he demands more of himself than anyone else. So, I wouldn't deny that he made a big deal out of nothing. But, just because it was an illogical phantasm of a problem doesn't mean that he wouldn't realistically have the issue. Anyone with psychological interests should be able to tell that he has a lot of anxiety. Anxiety does that kind of thing to people... and, apparently to fictional mutant turtles. :D

The other reasons are:
1)it's still popular fiction, in which case they have to make it interesting somehow
2)it's already done, so debating it is rather pointless.

That's justification of angst.

At least I think it was. As for Leo's "The Worst Of Batman" impression, I'm not saying it's right. Almost killing your father is far from the right thing to do, but that came out of fear. Fear isn't always rational. He says as much himself in the episode centred around their worst fears.

That is the point. Not that he made a deal out of nothing, because even though facing death is nothing new that's one of the closet times they've ever come that close to actually biting the dust. Seriously, if not for an Utrom stasis field, actually prolonging the inevitable...boom. That's it. Far from nothing.

Who's responsible for the care of the family doesn’t matter, Leo's going to see it as been squarely on his shoulders. And that's guaranteed to take it's toll. Add in the fact Karai is out there and told him right to his face she wasn't going to move (which didcome back to bite them in the ass) he actually has something to be worried about.

Then there's the events on board Shredder's ship themselves: he gets stabbed, so from his point of view he became useless and unable to really help if worst came to worst, Splinter got electrocuted and he could do nothing to prevent it and the best way he can think of to turn the situation around is "Hey guys, let's blow ourselves up. At least we'll take him with us." (Thanks Spitfire) And it almost happens.

Borderline traumatic. That kind of stuff dosen't just magically go away.


The other's let it go, and were right to do so, but part of that is they didn't make that decision. The best way he could think of wining is to forfeit not just his own life, but the lives of his family. Not nice thinking. He even told April he couldn't help thinking about it as anything other than a failure no matter how he looked at.

So yeah, he shouldn't think that way, but there's some justification for it.

Leo is one of these people who try to solve all the world's problems and feels bad when they can't. (Thanks Gobo) Characters like him or Spider-Man (who I've compared before I'm pretty sure) are hard on themselves, resulting in plenty of angst but that's not the story itself. The story is how they get over it and those are some of the best stories of all. Leo's just got dragged out. And from a story standpoint helped lead into the Ancient One, the Tribunal and thus closure.

I'm with Purescent, I'm not sure how to feel about the first couple of episodes of Fast Forward but that's not their attitude. They just saved the world, they can afford to let go, and in Leo's case he let go when he finally accepted he'd done all he could. That took someone else beating on him rather than his own self abolishing.

So yeah, he was making a big deal out of it, but it's not exactly nothing. I'm just saying don't write it off.

Just to clarify, I just checked that episode, and I heard them each making a comment about the ship's power core at about the same time, so I'd say that was really a joint strategy they all formulated at the same time, and they all willingly agreed to it on their own individual will despite Splinter's protest.

And they did get their share of injuries, so they all did have some recovering to do. I'll be honest, I might feel some trauma in the aftermath of something like that, so I won't write it off completely. It's just I wouldn't let it uselessly paralyze me for months. I'm just the kind of guy who believes what's past is past, and something that turns out all right in the end shouldn't be made into a burden.

But Leo is, so saying "I wouldn't" dosen't really mean anything.

They may have come up with the idea together but the point was Leo in his eyes should have had a better idea.

Watch Samurai Tourist or The Ancient One again.

I got the point. All I was just doing was contemplating the "ifs" for the sake of discussion. That's all.

i wish i got the 4kids channel, in my area only Atlanta itself gets it, not my city or any nearby city. :(

So, i have to wait for DVDs

I think part of his guilt also comes from trusting Karai. Mike and Don where pretty "meh" about it, but went along with it for his sake and Raph was openly against it from the get go. Leo is the one who constantly told them to trust Karai. And what is the result? She turns against them and sides wither her father and master.

Without her interference they would have beaten Shredder easily, they already destroyed his body and he was just a little Utrom. Then Karai swooped in, saved him and put him in a stroger body. Leo also doesn't know that Karai kept Shredder from killing him, because he was unconcious when that happened. So, if it hadn't been for her, it would have never come to the point where they had to sacrifice themselves.

Understandable, but why bring up the point of her keeping Shredder from killing them after they were unconcious if it was her fault they got in that mess of having to sacrafice themselves in the first place?

Because that piece of knowledge would have probably changed Leonardo's perspective on things. Alas, by the time they could have gone to talk about it, it was too late. Tora_chan may have a different perspective on things, though.

I have seen the Lost Season--I just don't see the turtles' attitude in Fast Forward as being any different from their regular state of mind. To me, the turtles have always known that the world they inhabit (be it 2007 or 2105) can be a ****ed-up place. They just don't do anything about it until it affects them personally, which is how most normal people would act. This applies in both TMNT 2k3 and Fast Forward.